Union leader Bob Crow has died

[Mr. House]

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/bob-crow-dies-rmt-union-leader-dead-at-52-9183607.html

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-26527325

 

For those who don't know, Bob Crow was one of the leading union figures in Britain and campaigned heavily for wage increases and better standards for workers of the rail and transport sector of London.

 

I know that given the general middle class right wing attitude of this forum, this thread probably won't be too popular, but this man is the reason why transport employees actually have a decent wage.

 

He died early this morning.

[MarshalMoo]

If most people on this forum are like me, this topic isn't popular because they got distracted by Bob Crow's pretty eyelashes or how Boris Johnson's hairstyle makes him look like Donald Trump.

 

In all seriousness, I'd make a topic when Donn Teske dies.

Edited March 11, 2014 by JIMHO

[Max]

As a Londoner I can tell you that Bob Crow and his Union frequently held this city to ransom. Whilst he was clearly someone who fought for his union members and what he believed in he was no great crusader against inequality and grave injustice.

 

London transport employees earn more than a 'decent wage', the average tube driver is on £42,000 p/y, compared to the National average of around £27,000 and apparently that's not enough as they went on strike again recently.

[Mr Oraange]

Nonetheless, rest in peace.

[Mr. House]

If most people on this forum are like me, this topic isn't popular because they got distracted by Bob Crow's pretty eyelashes or how Boris Johnson's hairstyle makes him look like Donald Trump.

 

In all seriousness, I'd make a topic when Donn Teske dies.

Maybe, but I'm going to stick with the middle class right wing thing.

 

 

As a Londoner I can tell you that Bob Crow and his Union frequently held this city to ransom. Whilst he was clearly someone who fought for his union members and what he believed in he was no great crusader against inequality and grave injustice.

 

London transport employees earn more than a 'decent wage', the average tube driver is on £42,000 p/y, compared to the National average of around £27,000 and apparently that's not enough as they went on strike again recently.

Yeah God forbid people are minorly inconvenienced so that people can have a living wage. We're not just talking train drivers here, we're talking about everyone who works for the rail and transport system. It's also not about wages, it's about the safety of the people working in the underground, like maintenance teams, cleaners etc. It's about pensions and a sense of actual job security. Maybe if the massive privatisation of the transport structure hadn't happened or legislation forced these companies to not treat workers like sh*t then you wouldn't miss your daily trip to starbucks.

[RedDagger]

There was some discussion elsewhere on whether it would be appropriate for people to 'celebrate' this death, considering how people reacted to Thatcher's death.

 

I also find it strange how he was on Radio 4 not a few weeks ago...alive, and everything normal. RIP.

[Mr. House]

There was some discussion elsewhere on whether it would be appropriate for people to 'celebrate' this death, considering how people reacted to Thatcher's death.

 

I also find it strange how he was on Radio 4 not a few weeks ago...alive, and everything normal. RIP.

Well you have to have f*cked up priorities to celebrate the death of a man who fought for decent wages against private corporations as opposed to a woman who allowed the country to collectively bend over and receive a massive shafting from said corporations, but each to their own I guess.

[iiGh0STt]

no, you have f*cked up priorities to ceate a thread as an american, honoring someones life and political career that has nothing to do with our country.

I mean, RIP and all, but there is nothing significant about this thread, or his life choices. as many have already stated, he was pretty well hated amongst his countrymen.

Edited March 11, 2014 by iiGh0STt

[Mr. House]

no, you have f*cked up priorities to ceate a thread as an american, honoring someones life and political career that has nothing to do with our country.

I'm British.

 

In any case this is dumb, you can't honour a person and what they stand for because of their nationality?

 

Well you better stop revering the founding fathers given that they were BRITISH. f*ck Ghandi too.

[Max]

 

There was some discussion elsewhere on whether it would be appropriate for people to 'celebrate' this death, considering how people reacted to Thatcher's death.

 

I also find it strange how he was on Radio 4 not a few weeks ago...alive, and everything normal. RIP.

Well you have to have f*cked up priorities to celebrate the death of a man who fought for decent wages against private corporations as opposed to a woman who allowed the country to collectively bend over and receive a massive shafting from said corporations, but each to their own I guess.

 

As opposed to the even bigger shafting they were getting from the Unions throughout the 70s?

 

With regards to your previous comment about living wage and working standards, I'm not anti-union and I agree that Bob Crow did some good work Nationally with the RMT, but he, and the RMT are far, far from perfect. Are you honestly arguing that £42,000 p/a for a Tube driver is an unfair living wage and one which under values Tube drivers?

[iiGh0STt]

http://theconversation.com/a-fighter-and-a-man-of-character-bob-crow-dead-at-52-24237

[Mr. House]

I mean, RIP and all, but there is nothing significant about this thread, or his life choices. as many have already stated, he was pretty well hated amongst his countrymen.

No he was not. Clearly you know less than nothing about this man or how people felt about him.

 

then why claim to be american myron? I do honor peoples deaths, and lifes when they make accomplishments worthy of being equally viewed by everyone.

 

I mean seriously, Rest in peace to all those who died, but was this thread really worth it? You did not even pay respects, instead, you used his death as an excuse to share your political standings and infringe them among others.

 

No wonder you are so close to being banned every day.

For the same reason some people on here 'claim' to be from mars. I've never claimed to be American, it's pretty well known that I'm British. This is irrelevant anyway.

 

Nobody in the history of the world has had accomplishments worth of being equally viewed by everyone. There is a notable percent of the population in your country that thinks Lincoln did the wrong thing.

 

I did pay my respects and I fully expected this topic to have detractors, but to suggest I made this topic as a soap box is f*cking insulting.

 

 

 

 

There was some discussion elsewhere on whether it would be appropriate for people to 'celebrate' this death, considering how people reacted to Thatcher's death.

 

I also find it strange how he was on Radio 4 not a few weeks ago...alive, and everything normal. RIP.

Well you have to have f*cked up priorities to celebrate the death of a man who fought for decent wages against private corporations as opposed to a woman who allowed the country to collectively bend over and receive a massive shafting from said corporations, but each to their own I guess.

 

As opposed to the even bigger shafting they were getting from the Unions throughout the 70s?

 

With regards to your previous comment about living wage and working standards, I'm not anti-union and I agree that Bob Crow did some good work Nationally with the RMT, but he, and the RMT are far, far from perfect. Are you honestly arguing that £42,000 p/a for a Tube driver is an unfair living wage and one which under values Tube drivers?

 

uh huh.

 

I'm suggesting that firstly yes, a higher wage in the City of London is fair compared to the rest of the country and I also think that blaming the wages of employees for sh*tty trains and rampant overcharging rather than the companies shows a messed up sense of blame.

[iiGh0STt]

what I do know:

In recent years Crow came under much criticism for living in a council house at the same time as earning a salary package rumoured to be worth around £133,000, something he was unashamed of as, in his view, he did a good job for RMT members. Some argued this amounted to hypocrisy, given his leaning toward the far left. He had been a member of the Communist Party of Great Britain and later joined Arthur Scargill’s Socialist Labour Party.

Bob was a vociferous critic of Tony Blair and had no time at all for third way politics. For Crow, all Labour had done was waste a landslide victory and allowed the gap between rich and poor to widen.

Every topic you make is a soap box. Yes he wanted equality, but at what cost?

[Mr. House]

Yes he wanted equality, but at what cost?

I don't know what that means.

 

Nobody is infallible, this isn't the point. Him not receiving the amount of money he was paid as a wage wouldn't have done anything, it's not even the issue.

[iiGh0STt]

there should be no issues from your perspective. but it seems the only people he fought for were union workers, and was portrayed as a hypocrite to others. I cannot stress enough that I am sorry for THEIR loss, but not the way you portray him by saying things like "given the general middle class right wing attitude of this forum" in a would be memorial thread.

your priorities are f*cked, and you had no idea what you wanted to accomplish by posting this thread, other than arguing everyone elses opinion. Popularity should be the last thing involved in someones memorial, because if their achievements were significant enough, you would not have to combat other views on his lifes work.

Edited March 11, 2014 by iiGh0STt

[Mr. House]

there should be no issues from your perspective. but it seems the only people he fought for were union workers, and was portrayed as a hypocrite to others. I cannot stress enough that I am sorry for THEIR loss, but not the way you portray him by saying things like "given the general middle class right wing attitude of this forum" in a would be memorial thread.

 

your priorities are f*cked, and you had no idea what you wanted to accomplish by posting this thread, other than arguing everyone elses opinion. Popularity should be the last thing involved in someones memorial, because if their achievements were significant enough, you would not have to combat other views on his lifes work.

Yeah maybe that was provocative and I shouldn't have worded it like that, but my point is that I knew that this forum would not generally appreciate this man as a whole.

 

I wouldn't say he only fought for union workers, but the structure of how the world works means that the only way in which one can make a difference against a private corporation is via a union.

 

I made this thread because there are a few people on this forum who probably think his death will have a negative affect on Britain and the role of unions given how well known a personality he was and his strong attitude.

 

Again there are noteworthy amounts of the population in the US today who think that segregation is a good idea. It's ridiculous to suggest that because a bunch of people (two as I count in this thread) think his actions were bad that what they did is not worthy of mention.

Edited March 11, 2014 by Myron

[iiGh0STt]

I would love to hear from other people that have been affected by his death, especially if they have something positive to say. Crow simply did what a trade unionist should do, and secured the best possible deal for his members in any given set of circumstances. For him, they were the only people who mattered, just as for private companies the people who matter are shareholders, and their boards and bosses behave accordingly.

Edited March 11, 2014 by iiGh0STt

[Mr. House]

I would love to hear from other people that have been affected by his death, especially if they have something positive to say. Crow simply did what a trade unionist should do, and secured the best possible deal for his members in any given set of circumstances. For him, they were the only people who mattered, just as for private companies the people who matter are shareholders, and their boards and bosses behave accordingly.

Sure, but I wouldn't say that's a fair equivalence. Employees don't make millions of dollars in profit, the majority are just trying to pay rent and put food on the table. The employees also aren't responsible for the cost of ticket prices either, so it's not really fair to put the blame on them. British rail prices are extortionate all across the country, regardless of the wages of the staff.

[Voodoo]

Re-opened. Keep it in your pants.

Edited March 11, 2014 by Voodoo

[Mr. House]

I partially made this thread because as I previously mentioned, I think his death will have a detrimental effect to the state of unions in Britain and how they are viewed, given that unions are already seen as power hungry monsters rather than groups lobbying for better conditions and pay and I was wondering what others feel about this.

[Max]

 

uh huh.

 

 

I'm suggesting that firstly yes, a higher wage in the City of London is fair compared to the rest of the country and I also think that blaming the wages of employees for sh*tty trains and rampant overcharging rather than the companies shows a messed up sense of blame.

 

Except, do you have any idea what the London job market is currently like?

 

£42,000 is a very good salary no matter what part of the country you're earning it in. I hold a BA degree from a Russell Group University and I am studying for an MSc at the same institution, I have top grades and a plethora of extra-curricular interests. I have military experience, sales experience, brokering experience, marketing experience and I'm applying to some of the top firms in London and yet I'll be lucky to land a job with £30k basic come September. Granted, I'll have room for career advancement but then so do tube drivers within their chosen field.

 

For some perspective, teachers in London earn around £27000-£31000 p/a, A 2nd Lieutenant in the British Army earns £30,014 p/a, a 2nd Year doctor with the NHS earns £28,076. I've chosen these because all of these careers require degrees, dedication and a f*ck load more training than it takes to become a tube driver, and yet they earn considerably more.

 

The point is that the skill and qualifications required to drive a train is not comparable to the skill and qualifications in other, less well paid careers and yet the RMT consistently pushes for ever higher salaries for it's members regardless of context or market forces. There were around 4 strikes which I can recall between 2008-2011 whilst the country was dragging its sorry arse through a recession. That, in my opinion, is not the behaviour of a benevolent, rational union. With anything, there has to be a balance between the Unions and the corporations, with no union comes exploitation but with an unchecked union comes complete and total inefficiency. As I've said before, I am not 'anti-union' and nor am I bagging on Bob Crow's life work. I'm simply saying that not all Union action is good and not all corporate action is evil and certainly with regards to the British transport system, neither side is remotely clean.

 

You made some snide comment about me being 'mad for missing my morning Starbucks' or something suggesting I blame the RMT just for messing up my day when they strike. That is flippant and wrong, for starters I don't drink coffee. What you actually have hit upon here though, is exactly why I think unilateral strike action on the London Underground is damaging and pointless: (For the purpose of this demonstration, I'm a coffee drinker) So I wake up on the day of a strike and I want coffee, but I can't get to Starbucks because the Tube isn't running, therefore Starbucks loses my business and makes roughly £4.50 less money from me today than they would have made had the tubes been running. Less revenue for them, less for the government to tax. Now imagine I was going to buy that coffee on my way to work, but I can't get the coffee, because that's next to my office, and my office is on the other side of a tube journey. So I can't make it to work or get my coffee. So Starbucks loses revenue, my work loses my labour for the day which may cost them £450. Now imagine that there are millions of people in my position. Unable to get to work which means they are unable to contribute their labour to the economy, and in turn are unable to spend money which would boost local business. Tube strikes have consistently cost London and the wider British economy tens if not hundreds of millions of pounds. In my opinion, repeated strike action by the RMT is doing nothing for their demands, their reputation and certainly nothing for the rest of us.

 

Furthermore, at no point have I blamed the wages or the unions for sh*tty service or high prices. I've travelled the world I actually think the transport in the UK is pretty good, although vastly over priced. Here again I agree with you because I believe that privatisation has been a major factor in this price rise. You're making false assumptions about me and my position.

Edited March 12, 2014 by Max

[Mr. House]

Except, do you have any idea what the London job market is currently like?

Is that relevant? Are you suggesting that lower wages should be accepted because jobs are sparse?

£42,000 is a very good salary no matter what part of the country you're earning it in. I hold a BA degree from a Russell Group University and I am studying for an MSc at the same institution, I have top grades and a plethora of extra-curricular interests. I have military experience, sales experience, brokering experience, marketing experience and I'm applying to some of the top firms in London and yet I'll be lucky to land a job with £30k basic come September. Granted, I'll have room for career advancement but then so do tube drivers within their chosen field.

 

 

For some perspective, teachers in London earn around £27000-£31000 p/a, A 2nd Lieutenant in the British Army earns £30,014 p/a, a 2nd Year doctor with the NHS earns £28,076. I've chosen these because all of these careers require degrees, dedication and a f*ck load more training than it takes to become a tube driver, and yet they earn considerably more.

 

Again, what does this matter? Them being paid lower than a train driver may seem unfair, but that doesn't mean the rail workers deserve less. In any case you keep talking about train drivers. Do you know how many train drivers there are in London? They make up much less of the rail workforce than the rest of the employees, the majority of whom get much much less than 40k. On that note, you have marketing experience, surely you understand supply and demand. A train driver could be classed as being 'worth' more than a Lieutenant due to what is required and the relative sparsity of train drivers. this doesn't matter anyway.

 

The point is that the skill and qualifications required to drive a train is not comparable to the skill and qualifications in other, less well paid careers and yet the RMT consistently pushes for ever higher salaries for it's members regardless of context or market forces. There were around 4 strikes which I can recall between 2008-2011 whilst the country was dragging its sorry arse through a recession. That, in my opinion, is not the behaviour of a benevolent, rational union. With anything, there has to be a balance between the Unions and the corporations, with no union comes exploitation but with an unchecked union comes complete and total inefficiency. As I've said before, I am not 'anti-union' and nor am I bagging on Bob Crow's life work. I'm simply saying that not all Union action is good and not all corporate action is evil and certainly with regards to the British transport system, neither side is remotely clean.

 

 

 

 

Good or evil does not come into it. The fact of the matter is that employees in every venture of life are vastly underpaid in relation to profits and it's certainly not fair whatever way you shake it. When the only real option one has is to strike to eke out a minor increase in pay, then I can't blame a group for doing such, given the cicumstances.

 

You made some snide comment about me being 'mad for missing my morning Starbucks' or something suggesting I blame the RMT just for messing up my day when they strike. That is flippant and wrong, for starters I don't drink coffee. What you actually have hit upon here though, is exactly why I think unilateral strike action on the London Underground is damaging and pointless: (For the purpose of this demonstration, I'm a coffee drinker) So I wake up on the day of a strike and I want coffee, but I can't get to Starbucks because the Tube isn't running, therefore Starbucks loses my business and makes roughly £4.50 less money from me today than they would have made had the tubes been running. Less revenue for them, less for the government to tax. Now imagine I was going to buy that coffee on my way to work, but I can't get the coffee, because that's next to my office, and my office is on the other side of a tube journey. So I can't make it to work or get my coffee. So Starbucks loses revenue, my work loses my labour for the day which may cost them £450. Now imagine that there are millions of people in my position. Unable to get to work which means they are unable to contribute their labour to the economy, and in turn are unable to spend money which would boost local business. Tube strikes have consistently cost London and the wider British economy tens if not hundreds of millions of pounds. In my opinion, repeated strike action by the RMT is doing nothing for their demands, their reputation and certainly nothing for the rest of us.

 

Maybe this sounds ignorant of me, but to cut it short, I really don't care too much about the 'economic damage' a strike causes when you're dealing with something like a decent pay increase, health and safety standards etc. I'm not all heartless though and I do believe this should be avoided from happening in the first case by forcing minimum wage to a much higher level than is the case nowadays and when dealing with something like fast moving tons of metal through an underground tube actually having health and safety standards that ensure the protection of workers.

 

Furthermore, at no point have I blamed the wages or the unions for sh*tty service or high prices. I've travelled the world I actually think the transport in the UK is pretty good, although vastly over priced. Here again I agree with you because I believe that privatisation has been a major factor in this price rise. You're making false assumptions about me and my position.

 

 

Fair enough. My apologies.

Sorry about the abysmal quoting, trying to fix it.

Edited March 12, 2014 by Myron

[Doland J. Trump]

Unions blah blah blah, RIP anyway.

Edited March 12, 2014 by AndrewDeSanta

[Clem Fandango]

I feel I should point out that the majority of British workers are severely underpaid. The anti-union measures brought in by Thatcher (as well as her rapid shift to a service economy without adequate training, more unemployment=less union dues) have left the British worker bent over, pants around the ankles. I know people in public sector jobs in the UK that have almost no disposable income, compared to people here in Australia doing the exact same job that are quite comfortable. I've never met a Londoner that didn't have at least some trouble keeping the lights on, and it isn't normal: do you think people struggle to survive with ordinary jobs in Berlin or Stockholm? Paris? They certainly don't in Sydney.

 

Also train drivers are quite skilled. It's not unheard of for a train driver here to make more than $100,000 AUD.