This is why I've been challenging the validity of Broughy's ca

[Accendo]

The thing with the racing lines being used while testing is that different cars do have different optimal lines, but every course is different and if you run different lines it's as much a test of the course as anything else, running the same line over and over on the same course with different cars isn't a perfect test but it's not a bad test either if you're trying to be quick about it and aren't looking for perfection.

 

If you really wanted to be comprehensive you would have to test every car fully modded on every race (in both clear and rainy weather) with each car on it's own optimal line and then analyze the results, but even then for it to be truly comprehensive you'd need multiple people doing that on their own and then putting it all together and analyzing the results from everyone.

Agreed. This is why I've found all the "ultimate test" threads to be a joke.

Just the other day I discovered that my Jester ran a number of corners faster on the outside line than the Elegy was running on the inside in the same corners.

Add horsepower and your lines SHOULD change completely.

[Lucius Aelius]

Of course there's traffic too, I forgot about that, having it on often prevents you from being able to do proper lines (which I like, it makes things interesting) what with there often being a car in your path, often forcing you to stay in your lane around corners to avoid a head on collision you could never hope to see coming and so just have to assume will be there just in case. Also car shape and weight distribution come into play a lot more, thinner cars often have an advantage by fitting between cars where a wider car would get stuck, and then there's cars with front hoods that have angles either on the sides or on the front (or both) which deflect cars upon collision (as opposed to cars with more angular shapes which tend to stop cold upon impact).

 

I actually hate racing in this game without traffic, I'll put up with catchup and slipstream happily enough so long as traffic is on but I'll quit in a heartbeat if I see traffic off (with the exception of some races like off-road that have no traffic as a feature), racing with traffic may not be perfect (the AI could do with some adjustments) but racing with traffic adds a whole extra level of complexity and difficulty to the race and I find myself bored racing without it. As far as testing goes, a whole lot of new variables would have to be taken into account when considering the performance of cars when traffic is on that you don't need to worry about as much (or at all) when it's off, and any tests which don't take such things into account aren't being comprehensive.

 

One of the first times I played Jumps, Jumps, Jumps in my Entity I got stuck between that wreck and the railing after one of the jumps and I just knew right then that the guy who made that race favored an Adder himself and put that there just to spite us Entity drivers by leaving a space he could fit through but we couldn't.

[Phyxsius-]

The thing with the racing lines being used while testing is that different cars do have different optimal lines, but every course is different and if you run different lines it's as much a test of the course as anything else, running the same line over and over on the same course with different cars isn't a perfect test but it's not a bad test either if you're trying to be quick about it and aren't looking for perfection.

 

If you really wanted to be comprehensive you would have to test every car fully modded on every race (in both clear and rainy weather) with each car on it's own optimal line and then analyze the results, but even then for it to be truly comprehensive you'd need multiple people doing that on their own and then putting it all together and analyzing the results from everyone.

There is no such thing as each car`s best line.

 

<--- Google "racing line" and look at all those images about it.

 

There is only ONE shortest distance between two points and there is only ONE way of taking a turn, in order to maximize acceleration. That is not and never has been a debate.

 

So, for each ingame circuit, under normal rules, like actual track surface and boundaries, you only have ONE racing line - which is the shortest distance, using the apex of a given turn, while keeping at all times 2 wheels inside the track, if we talk about cars. Bikes, not cut too deep, I`d guess.

______________________

 

So, if you really want to compare the two cars, instead of fabricating evidence, what you should do is use the exact same line around any given track, then do a decent number of laps with both cars, while keeping track of your average lap time, best lap and total time over a specific distance.

[FasterThanYou]

His tests are pretty good. Of course when two cars are separated by a fraction the pecking order can change for a different track or weather, but they tell pretty well the overall picture for every class.

 

Also, on this particular case, Entity IS faster around CC than Adder. We did a time trial event in our crew for a full week and all top times were from an Entity. Winner was a 54.2 (someone got it a tenth down later).

 

The margin to Adder is smaller than in more technical tracks but it's still slower comfortably.

[Lucius Aelius]

l say now that I'm hardly a racing expert and while I'm familiar with physics in general I have never studied racing specifically to any detail and I know very little about cars beyond the basics (and I'm probably lacking in some if the basics in all honesty), so perhaps I misspoke on that, certainly of course these aren't proper race tracks like the one in your picture, they're city streets with lamp posts and mail boxes and pedestrians and curbs and trees and so on, and not all cars are anywhere near as similar to each other as proper race cars are to each other, which is a measure perhaps as much of this games unrealistic physics and the driver's imperfections as anything but in order to be able to turn some corners at speed you have to break different amounts (sometime using the handbrake and sometimes not), so different cars will not be capable of the same things during a turn and couldn't always be expected to follow the exact same line.

 

The whole point of multiple people doing the test is to account for people not being able to drive some cars as well as others, and certainly I would say it's possible for people to run a line that is optimal for them because it's what they can do best, even if it isn't The optimal line.

 

And like I said in that other post different cars have radically different shapes and sizes and some can fit places others can't, which was my point in bringing up all those obstacles above, some cars can swerve between things where others need to go around.

Edited March 8, 2014 by Lucius Aelius

[Phyxsius-]

The whole point of multiple people doing the test is to account for people not being able to drive some cars as well as others, and certainly I would say it's possible for people to run a line that is optimal for them because it's what they can do best, even if it isn't The optimal line.

You are trying to reinvent racing and that isn`t working very well. Regardless of any other factor, there is and always will be a racing line.

 

Now, since we can point some constant facts, like circuit, racing line and driver, we can replace one variable - aka the car. I REALLY don`t understand why everybody is trying to reinvent the wheel, or fabricate evidence simply because they want the Adder to be better, when they can do one simple thing: Either use an Adder and use the same exact setting as he did, or do it themselves: Get that circuit, put traffic off, then do 100 laps with the Entity, then 100 with the Adder, while using the same racing line, regardless of what that line might be, then compare results.

 

Because it`s starting to look like that child that is covering his eyes and pretending things don`t exist.

Edited March 8, 2014 by Phyxsius-

[Lucius Aelius]

I'm not saying you're wrong dude but you're nitpicking a little more than necessary and coming off as a bit of a dick in the process, certainly if all that child covering his eyes sh*t wasn't directed at me then fine whatever but if it is directed at me I'm honestly confused, I only just came into this thread and haven't even said very much yet, if you're directing that sh*t at me then you're assuming a lot of things about me based on very little (and all of it wildly inaccurate).

[BSEANO]

 

The whole point of multiple people doing the test is to account for people not being able to drive some cars as well as others, and certainly I would say it's possible for people to run a line that is optimal for them because it's what they can do best, even if it isn't The optimal line.

You are trying to reinvent racing and that isn`t working very well. Regardless of any other factor, there is and always will be a racing line.

 

Now, since we can point some constant facts, like circuit, racing line and driver, we can replace one variable - aka the car. I REALLY don`t understand why everybody is trying to reinvent the wheel, or fabricate evidence simply because they want the Adder to be better, when they can do one simple thing: Either use an Adder and use the same exact setting as he did, or do it themselves: Get that circuit, put traffic off, then do 100 laps with the Entity, then 100 with the Adder, while using the same racing line, regardless of what that line might be, then compare results.

 

Because it`s starting to look like that child that is covering his eyes and pretending things don`t exist.

 

No one is trying to reinvent racing. Also I think you're forgetting that GTA is not a racing game. Cars and bikes differ in many areas both in terms of physics and performance. This isn't F1 or any other type of racing where all the cars have VERY similar performance, weight, grip etc.

The Entity can exit a corner within a similar time frame by braking, turning and accelerating, as an Adder when you take a very wide entrance and exit and let its power and weight take it through. Yes, there is A racing line, does every car need to follow it to the inch to get the quickest lap time? No.

I could probably match my Adder time with the Entity, but I can bet you any amount of money that I will not beat it.

 

I never even said that I'd cut any of the corners anyway, people just assumed that I did.

[FasterThanYou]

The line doesnt have to be a carbon copy for all cars. The out-in-out principle will always prevail but there are slight changes depending on the car. For low power vehicles keeping the speed up mid corner helps to be fast down next straight. For high power vehicles you can afford to let speed drop a bit and then be hard on the power early and you'll benefit all down next straight.

 

If you want to compare two cars you just have to be as fast as possible with both, on whatever line is fastest for that car.

[Phyxsius-]

I'm not saying you're wrong dude but you're nitpicking a little more than necessary and coming off as a bit of a dick in the process, certainly if all that child covering his eyes sh*t wasn't directed at me then fine whatever but if it is directed at me I'm honestly confused, I only just came into this thread and haven't even said very much yet, if you're directing that sh*t at me then you're assuming a lot of things about me based on very little (and all of it wildly inaccurate).

The original thesis of this thread was that Broughy isn`t perfect and an Adder beat his best time. Hastily generalizing, the OP assumed that is a sign of anything. Later, I think on page 2, he claims that an Adder can be faster than an Entity on a different line, then on this page it was claimed that, for a given circuit, there is more than one racing line. Then it has degraded into semantics and guesses on what the circuit and racing line is in GTA 5.

 

The only thing the OP can do, if he really wants to prove Broughy wrong, is to use both cars, on the same racing line, on the same circuit, for a sufficient number of turns, not take ONE best lap out of God knows how many tries and pretend it`s Gospel.

 

No one is trying to reinvent racing. Also I think you're forgetting that GTA is not a racing game. Cars and bikes differ in many areas both in terms of physics and performance. This isn't F1 or any other type of racing where all the cars have VERY similar performance, weight, grip etc.

Depends which is your point. Do you want the Adder to be fastest, because you say so, or do you want to PROVE that the Adder is faster? Because, if you want PROOF, you will need to approach it from a racing point of view - take a circuit, or more, if you want to see the difference between acceleration vs power in relation to grip, decide ONE line, then do 100 laps with each car and compare the results.

 

Again, there is always ONE line through a given circuit. As FasterThanYou has said, there are ways to use a car based on its characteristics, but nothing has to change, apart from putting power on earlier, or later, or going slower or faster inside a certain turn. IF you want to be scientific about it, that is, and not use ONE lap against a full race.

Edited March 8, 2014 by Phyxsius-

[FasterThanYou]

 

I could probably match my Adder time with the Entity, but I can bet you any amount of money that I will not beat it.

Oh yes you will. At least by 2-3 tenths around this short track.

[Lucius Aelius]

Like I said it just looked like you were snapping pretty hard at me despite me telling you point blank how little I knew what I was talking about, it's not as though I was being very enthusiastic in my argument, but I just feel that being a sh*tty driver who has taught himself to be halfway competent by playing this game so much that there really is just some things I can't do with these cars which I would need to to be optimal, if I were going to run this test I know I'd try but I also know that my best line isn't necessarily going to look the same as someone else's. I based what I said on this experience, so take it as you will, but it's not something I feel is worth such sharp criticism for me saying in this thread.

[BSEANO]

 

No one is trying to reinvent racing. Also I think you're forgetting that GTA is not a racing game. Cars and bikes differ in many areas both in terms of physics and performance. This isn't F1 or any other type of racing where all the cars have VERY similar performance, weight, grip etc.

Depends which is your point. Do you want the Adder to be fastest, because you say so, or do you want to PROVE that the Adder is faster? Because, if you want PROOF, you will need to approach it from a racing point of view - take a circuit, or more, if you want to see the difference between acceleration vs power in relation to grip, decide ONE line, then do 100 laps with each car and compare the results.

 

Again, there is always ONE line through a given circuit. As FasterThanYou has said, there are ways to use a car based on its characteristics, but nothing has to change, apart from putting power on earlier, or later, or going slower or faster inside a certain turn. IF you want to be scientific about it, that is, and not use ONE lap against a full race.

 

My god this is tiresome. You're completely missing my point, man.

You can't expect every car to kick out its best lap time by following the EXACT line as another car. I'm not trying to prove the Adder is a better car, I'm trying to prove that the Entity ISN'T a better car, and that driven differently and more/less aggressively and taking corners wider/sharper, you can perform just as well with car A as someone else can with car B.

That's it.

[FasterThanYou]

Yes, Entity is better. Adder only superiority comes from longer gearing. Entity does everything else just as well or better.

 

In this track you're hitting the rev limiter last 3-4 seconds of the main straight. Adder arrives faster to turn 1. From then on it loses ground.

[BSEANO]

Yes, Entity is better. Adder only superiority comes from longer gearing. Entity does everything else just as well or better.

 

In this track you're hitting the rev limiter last 3-4 seconds of the main straight. Adder arrives faster to turn 1. From then on it loses ground.

You literally just said "If you want to compare two cars you just have to be as fast as possible with both, on whatever line is fastest for that car."

One is not ultimately better than the other. You won't lose ground if you know how to corner with it.

 

 

not take ONE best lap out of God knows how many tries

 

 

For the record, I just loaded up online and did 5 laps and got a 54.644 on my last lap, and I think I got two or three laps in the 55s, so I'm not as inconsistent with this as you might think. Broughy took many many tries to get the times he got, so I don't see how that's relevant.

[Phyxsius-]

Like I said it just looked like you were snapping pretty hard at me despite me telling you point blank how little I knew what I was talking about, it's not as though I was being very enthusiastic in my argument, but I just feel that being a sh*tty driver who has taught himself to be halfway competent by playing this game so much that there really is just some things I can't do with these cars which I would need to to be optimal, if I were going to run this test I know I'd try but I also know that my best line isn't necessarily going to look the same as someone else's. I based what I said on this experience, so take it as you will, but it's not something I feel is worth such sharp criticism for me saying in this thread.

As long as your test involves the same racing line for both cars, you can use whatever line you want, that is all I am trying to say. There is also one other thing: there is only one racing line - you can agree with me or not on this issue, but that is the only universal truth. The picture I linked earlier is just an example - based on how the circuit`s layout is, there is only one fastest way through the corners; makes no difference if you are in a Formula 1 car, or a bicycle.

My god this is tiresome. You're completely missing my point, man.

 

You can't expect every car to kick out its best lap time by following the EXACT line as another car. I'm not trying to prove the Adder is a better car, I'm trying to prove that the Entity ISN'T a better car, and that driven differently and more/less aggressively and taking corners wider/sharper, you can perform just as well with car A as someone else can with car B.

That's it.

 

Yes I can expect every car to kick out it`s best time by following the EXACT same line, because it uses the shortest possible distance between 2 points.

 

And you will prove the above only if you`d directly compare the both of them on the same line. You are obviously trying to reinvent racing and it`s really getting annoying at this point. Feel free to post video proof with both cars being driven on the same track, on the same line, ideally side to side, and you might convince me to use an Adder. In the meantime, I`ll believe Broughy and use an Entity, because I believe in consistency on the same line AND grip / acceleration over top speed.

 

Looking forward to video proof that I`m wrong.

Edited March 8, 2014 by Phyxsius-

[FasterThanYou]

 

Yes, Entity is better. Adder only superiority comes from longer gearing. Entity does everything else just as well or better.

 

In this track you're hitting the rev limiter last 3-4 seconds of the main straight. Adder arrives faster to turn 1. From then on it loses ground.

You literally just said "If you want to compare two cars you just have to be as fast as possible with both, on whatever line is fastest for that car."

One is not ultimately better than the other. You won't lose ground if you know how to corner with it.

 

 

Yes you will. You can´t make up for grip deficit. A 2013 Force India F1 car won´t keep up with a 2013 Red Bull F1 car even if the driver knows how to corner the best possible way the Force India.

 

The Force India has a grip deficit and its maximum performance through a corner is simply lower, regardless of how well the driver knows how to extract the most out of that particular model.

Edited March 8, 2014 by FasterThanYou

[Phyxsius-]

 

 

Yes, Entity is better. Adder only superiority comes from longer gearing. Entity does everything else just as well or better.

 

In this track you're hitting the rev limiter last 3-4 seconds of the main straight. Adder arrives faster to turn 1. From then on it loses ground.

You literally just said "If you want to compare two cars you just have to be as fast as possible with both, on whatever line is fastest for that car."

One is not ultimately better than the other. You won't lose ground if you know how to corner with it.

 

 

Yes you will. You can´t make up for grip deficit. A 2013 Force India F1 car won´t keep up with a 2013 Red Bull F1 car even if the driver knows how to corner the best possible way the Force India.

 

The Force India has a grip deficit and its maximum performance through a corner is simply lower, regardless of how well the driver knows how to extract the most out of that particular model.

 

Funny thing is that Red Bull actually won by using grip in slow and med speed corners, with the Renault engine, which is universally regarded as the less powerful of the Mercedes and Ferrari engines.

[BSEANO]

 

I'm done.

[Phyxsius-]

Why? Get a video up, with both cars driven by you, in exact circumstances, so the only variable is the car. Otherwise, I really fail to see why you are so upset, when you simply refuse to limit the variables in your potential test.

 

[EDIT] Prove us all wrong and put that vid up

Edited March 8, 2014 by Phyxsius-

[FasterThanYou]

I don´t know how people can think that a car lacking grip can corner the same way "if the driver is good". Grip is a measurable quality, probably the most important one. It tells how much mass you can turn, stop, or move forward at a certain speed without the tyre sliding. There´s no way to overcome that with driving.

 

If your super diamond stops gripping at 75km/h through a corner and your Schafter stops gripping at 100 km/h through the same corner, the Schafter will always be faster with equally talented drivers. In this case the margins are way lower but that´s the situation with these two cars. Entity can stop/turn/move forward its mass at a certain speed through corners.

[BSEANO]

Why? Get a video up, with both cars driven by you, in exact circumstances, so the only variable is the car. Otherwise, I really fail to see why you are so upset, when you simply refuse to limit the variables in your potential test.

 

[EDIT] Prove us all wrong and put that vid up

I don't have a capture card and I don't own an Entity otherwise I would.

I'm not upset, I'm just really frustrated that you can't comprehend that one person can get from A to B quicker than someone else in a different car.

 

I don´t know how people can think that a car lacking grip can corner the same way "if the driver is good". Grip is a measurable quality, probably the most important one. It tells how much mass you can turn, stop, or move forward at a certain speed without the tyre sliding. There´s no way to overcome that with driving.

 

If your super diamond stops gripping at 75km/h through a corner and your Schafter stops gripping at 100 km/h through the same corner, the Schafter will always be faster with equally talented drivers. In this case the margins are way lower but that´s the situation with these two cars. Entity can stop/turn/move forward its mass at a certain speed through corners.

Yes there is, by taking a wider line, thus reducing the outward force than makes the car lose grip.

Edited March 8, 2014 by BSEANO

[WTFThisIsntWii]

You would not get a fair car speed test unless its a dead straight track with the accelerator held in from start to finish. No touching the joysticks or brake. As then the optimal race line would be the same for all cars.

 

By testing it on a curved track most players will have a different race line every single time. You'd need several highly skilled drivers to use the same optimal race line and the same vehicles then you could average their time.

 

Some cars have vast oversteer and understeer so you would have different race lines to optimise their performance. You don't want to apex early or late. As an early apex will minimise the distance but it's a tighter turn whilst a late apex has a wider turn radius but you can go around it at a higher speed. The race line is the best balance between minimal distance and maximum speed as you want to exit the corner as fast as possible and spend the least possible distance within the bend. However each race line will be different it''ll deviate on each track and for each vehicle.

 

So there's no definitive way to find which car performs the best on a race track. We can find out statistically using a straight line but some cars will do better on tracks featuring hairpins and back to back curves. However the race lines will be biased for certain cars. It'll be too difficult to find the optimum race line for each car on a track. It essentially boils down to what car each driver is more comfortable in.

[FasterThanYou]

 

 

Yes there is, by taking a wider line, thus reducing the outward force than makes the car lose grip.

 

 

We´re talking about maximum performance mate. Both cars are already being pushed using the best possible line. Still one of the cars will go faster through there, the one with more grip.

 

Remember, it doesn´t matter how well you get to know your super diamond and how much you nail the corner, there´s nothing you can do for it to keep up with the Schafter.

[BSEANO]

 

 

 

Yes there is, by taking a wider line, thus reducing the outward force than makes the car lose grip.

 

 

We´re talking about maximum performance mate. Both cars are already being pushed using the best possible line. Still one of the cars will go faster through there, the one with more grip.

 

Remember, it doesn´t matter how well you get to know your super diamond and how much you nail the corner, there´s nothing you can do for it to keep up with the Schafter.

 

If he's using the best possible line for both cars, how come I beat his Adder time by almost a full second? (He said his time was a one off too, meaning the majority of his laps with the car were a lot worse than that).

[Phyxsius-]

I'm not upset, I'm just really frustrated that you can't comprehend that one person can get from A to B quicker than someone else in a different car.

 

I never said one person can`t be faster than another. But this is about cars, not persons. So, a test, or to prove that a car is better or worse than another needs to have only one variable - the car.

 

So, a test to prove a difference between 2 cars needs to be conducted by the same person - ideally race savvy, by using the same track, the same racing line, the same "skill". Because, at the end of the day, physics are physics, and, as it was said before, if you lose grip at 150 kph in a 90 degree turn, you will ALWAYS spin at anything above 150 kph, or overspin wheels, or skid, or need to stop throttle, or whatever. And if we have 2 cars, one that loses grip at 150 and one at 130, that`s really a no brainer. And this game has at least grip notions.

 

Btw, that wider line you are talking about is distance extra, or extra meters off the racing line, artificially lenghtening your race .

 

If he's using the best possible line for both cars, how come I beat his Adder time by almost a full second? (He said his time was a one off too, meaning the majority of his laps with the car were a lot worse than that).

Here is the problem and why you don`t understand it. It makes no difference if you or anybody else beat his time. It does if you can beat YOUR OWN time with an Entity, using everything else the same as you did with the Adder (same circuit, same line, same mods). You might just be more talented than he is, that doesn`t mean the car is better. You can only prove the car is better if you can constantly beat YOUR OWN TIME set with an Entity, with an Adder.

Edited March 8, 2014 by Phyxsius-

[FasterThanYou]

 

 

 

If he's using the best possible line for both cars, how come I beat his Adder time by almost a full second? (He said his time was a one off too, meaning the majority of his laps with the car were a lot worse than that).

 

 

Because he´s not. For f*ck´s sake, if I beat a guy on a Exemplar with a F620 it doesn´t mean the F620, it means I did a better job that time.

[BSEANO]

I'm just gonna let this thread die away I think. You guys keep missing my point time and time again and I'm getting bored of it.

[am30]

Wow, 0.249 miliseconds!

Very big difference indeed.

 

To be fair in F1 that is a considerable amount slower.

[Phyxsius-]

I'm just gonna let this thread die away I think. You guys keep missing my point time and time again and I'm getting bored of it.

You made your point very clear - you beat in an Adder Broughy`s time with an Entity, which you used to try and prove that the Adder is better than the Entity. It is false, because you have 2 variables - the driver and the car. You can be a better driver than Broughy by .7 of a second = .5 to beat his time and .2 to make up for the car deficit (out of my butt numbers).

 

Thing is, if you really want to prove the Adder is faster, you have to race them YOURSELF, on at least 2 different tracks (one that has long straight lines and one that is as twisted and full or corners as you can find), by using the same mods and the same racing line (whatever that might be).

 

[EDIT] I am not saying that is impossible for you to be better than him. But that is NOT a sign of a car being better or worse.

Edited March 8, 2014 by Phyxsius-