This is why I've been challenging the validity of Broughy's ca

[SHarm]

 

 

The f*ck is broughy :S

A Guy on youtube who pissed off a lot Adder and Akuma Fans. LOL.

Sounds like a fa**ot

[Malibu454]

All that proves is your faster than Broughy.

Do it again with a fully modded Entity, Elgy, etc then come back and report.

Also was that a 1 lap race or your fastest lap time?

1st lap would be slower from a standing start. Im not sure if Broughy compared using 1 lap race or not.

[BSEANO]

All that proves is your faster than Broughy.

Do it again with a fully modded Entity, Elgy, etc then come back and report.

Also was that a 1 lap race or your fastest lap time?

1st lap would be slower from a standing start. Im not sure if Broughy compared using 1 lap race or not.

I don't have either of those right now, but if I get one I'll try it.

And he did it in sets of like 10 laps or something then took his best time, which is exactly what I did. I think I hit it on my 4th or 5th lap, I can't remember.

[HBSanta]

All that proves is your faster than Broughy.

Do it again with a fully modded Entity, Elgy, etc then come back and report.

Also was that a 1 lap race or your fastest lap time?

1st lap would be slower from a standing start. Im not sure if Broughy compared using 1 lap race or not.

Broughy tested by doing races of 10 laps or more.

 

His videos are very good and I enjoy watching them, but like someone else in this thread pointed out, he has familiarity with certain cars and no experience with others. So when he posts the lap times of all those vehicles he's not taking into account the fact that other racers can perform just as well if not better with cars which they are familiar with. I beat his Carbonizzare lap on my first try because it's the sports car I use the most and am most accustomed to. To get a true "fastest car" list, one would need to get a group of racers who are proficient with different vehicles and average out all the lap times.

[Phyxsius-]

What you're saying makes complete sense to me, I understand and agree.

 

However the ideal line for the Adder is much different. It lacks acceleration so you need to maintain as much speed through the corner as possible. No harsh braking or turning.

If I had the footage you'd see that I go VERY wide on the entrance, deep inside and very wide on the exit, sometimes I drift off of the track yes, but not by much, I mean I still get the checkpoints which are all literally ON the corner. If you cut the corner too much you either miss the checkpoint or spin out.

I actually end up crossing the finish line on the other side of the road, that's how wide I go.

 

Technically, there is only so much room. There is also a trade-off between going extra wide as you enter the turn, to try and maximize your angle and keep your speed inside the actual turn high, because you push your grip higher. In the end, all things equal, there isn`t much you can debate about physics . Sooner or later, you will need traction, because that is the key to racing - putting the engine power down as efficient as possible. And if someone else would use your exact driving style, it would simply accelerate faster, which will transform into higher top speed at the end of a straight, then it`s all a snowball effect.

 

I am not saying it can`t be done. But I am saying that, all things being equal, the best car would win.

[scubadave]

 

anything with corners wont be accurate. just use the straightline race, no turbo start, etc.

Then the handling and acceleration factors are taken away and it just shows speed. No race in GTA online is just a straight line. I could blow an adder out of the water in my Turismo.

 

 

there are races that were created in Creator to do this, or just create your own race staright line, measured out to half mile, etc.acceleration from zero would be built into that, but yes, rolling start and cornering would not be measured.

[BSEANO]

 

What you're saying makes complete sense to me, I understand and agree.

 

However the ideal line for the Adder is much different. It lacks acceleration so you need to maintain as much speed through the corner as possible. No harsh braking or turning.

If I had the footage you'd see that I go VERY wide on the entrance, deep inside and very wide on the exit, sometimes I drift off of the track yes, but not by much, I mean I still get the checkpoints which are all literally ON the corner. If you cut the corner too much you either miss the checkpoint or spin out.

I actually end up crossing the finish line on the other side of the road, that's how wide I go.

 

Technically, there is only so much room. There is also a trade-off between going extra wide as you enter the turn, to try and maximize your angle and keep your speed inside the actual turn high, because you push your grip higher. In the end, all things equal, there isn`t much you can debate about physics . Sooner or later, you will need traction, because that is the key to racing - putting the engine power down as efficient as possible. And if someone else would use your exact driving style, it would simply accelerate faster, which will transform into higher top speed at the end of a straight, then it`s all a snowball effect.

 

I am not saying it can`t be done. But I am saying that, all things being equal, the best car would win.

 

The Adder actually has very very good grip, I never understood everyone's problem with it.

To be honest, if the speeds didn't lie and the gears actually worked as they should in this game, the Adder would be absolutely outstanding. The cars don't shift down soon enough for you to explode out of the turn. I wish there was a manual transmission option.

[BrownMattHall]

 

 

 

 

What you're saying makes complete sense to me, I understand and agree.

 

 

However the ideal line for the Adder is much different. It lacks acceleration so you need to maintain as much speed through the corner as possible. No harsh braking or turning.

If I had the footage you'd see that I go VERY wide on the entrance, deep inside and very wide on the exit, sometimes I drift off of the track yes, but not by much, I mean I still get the checkpoints which are all literally ON the corner. If you cut the corner too much you either miss the checkpoint or spin out.

I actually end up crossing the finish line on the other side of the road, that's how wide I go.

 

Technically, there is only so much room. There is also a trade-off between going extra wide as you enter the turn, to try and maximize your angle and keep your speed inside the actual turn high, because you push your grip higher. In the end, all things equal, there isn`t much you can debate about physics . Sooner or later, you will need traction, because that is the key to racing - putting the engine power down as efficient as possible. And if someone else would use your exact driving style, it would simply accelerate faster, which will transform into higher top speed at the end of a straight, then it`s all a snowball effect.

 

I am not saying it can`t be done. But I am saying that, all things being equal, the best car would win.

 

The Adder actually has very very good grip, I never understood everyone's problem with it.

To be honest, if the speeds didn't lie and the gears actually worked as they should in this game, the Adder would be absolutely outstanding. The cars don't shift down soon enough for you to explode out of the turn. I wish there was a manual transmission option.

I've always felt it had definite understeer issues

Also if you're in high gear and in the low RPM range you can come off the accelerator, tap the handbrake and lay back into the accelerator and it'll force down shift it. Practice it enough and it'll sufficiently eliminate that issue!

[mo-seph]

 

 

You probably beat his time by using a different racing line, he uses the same racing line for every car, even if it is not 100% optimal for those cars (and bikes which could cut corners more).

 

Now Try beating the time you set in the Adder in the Entity and I'm sure you will go faster in the entity

this exactly.... im surprised he thinks that because he got a better time he thinks hes disproving broughy. no. youre just on another level. use an entity on the same lines and compare, youll probably beat your addrer time

This is the fairest point on the topic so far

 

If you wana be scientific you need a constant and test the variable. In broughys case the constant is the racing line and the driver, the variable bein thecar

 

Woukdnt matter if he was clockin 1:30 laps, prpvided hes hittin the same lines every time its ONE method to objectively analyse performance difference....

 

But thats not the only way by a long shot, he ccould determine a variety of tests, includi ng track testin, acceleration testing, brakin distances, handling... But most people will have already stopped readin this post, nevermind broughy doin 45 min long videos ofextensive testin to make apoint. His videos make a point, you just need to understand it

 

 

People need to learn how to consider whats bein tested and how and make an informed judgement for thenselves based on objective analysis

[BSEANO]

 

 

You probably beat his time by using a different racing line, he uses the same racing line for every car, even if it is not 100% optimal for those cars (and bikes which could cut corners more).

 

Now Try beating the time you set in the Adder in the Entity and I'm sure you will go faster in the entity

this exactly.... im surprised he thinks that because he got a better time he thinks hes disproving broughy. no. youre just on another level. use an entity on the same lines and compare, youll probably beat your addrer time

This is the fairest point on the topic so far

 

If you wana be scientific you need a constant and test the variable. In broughys case the constant is the racing line and the driver, the variable bein thecar

 

Woukdnt matter if he was clockin 1:30 laps, prpvided hes hittin the same lines every time its ONE method to objectively analyse performance difference....

 

But thats not the only way by a long shot, he ccould determine a variety of tests, includi ng track testin, acceleration testing, brakin distances, handling... But most people will have already stopped readin this post, nevermind broughy doin 45 min long videos ofextensive testin to make apoint. His videos make a point, you just need to understand it

 

 

People need to learn how to consider whats bein tested and how and make an informed judgement for thenselves based on objective analysis

 

I really don't see why people are focusing so hard on the racing line. I'm quite obviously using the racing line because I got a good time around the track, did I not?

I know exactly what he's testing, its just the fact that he's drawing ignorant conclusions that "X car is better than Y car and you will definitely win with X car because I got around this track quicker in it." He even made a video "explaining why" he got the results he got, and pretty much stuck a middle finger up to anyone who disagrees with him.

 

It's pure bullsh*t to be honest. Like I said, he's a great racer, but his attitude really gets on my tits.

[paulmgrath]

off topic but why wouldnt you want to post it with your gamertag anyways? my PSNs on my profile

Edited March 8, 2014 by paulmgrath

[Soran Is On]

You guys should stick to forza.

[G37]

I don't understand how there's anything wrong with his "attitude". He's not demeaning, he's not arrogant and he doesn't present himself as anything negative.

 

What more do you want from the guy?

 

- He tries to remain objective by setting up constants and testing variables

- He adds discussion videos on his experience and experiments (which is more than 99.99% anyone else does)

- He updates the videos

- He includes who he is

- He tries to eliminate bias

 

It's a human experiment. You're not going to eliminate all human error, all personal bias or all lack of personal skill in all areas. Best he can do is offer you a series of averages and we the viewers take it for what it's worth. It's ultimately more or less at the end of the day a very informed and educated opinion. Are there better racers than him? Of course but I can at least appreciate the effort he put into something like this.

 

That's not all. You can't even THINK of questioning his "validity" on something when there's a few things you need to consider yourself. You're hiding who you are. I'll let that soak in for the sake of being "credible" and you've stated you don't have this vehicle or that vehicle. I'll just chuckle at that one.

 

Now are you more capable with the same car than him? It's possible. You sure as hell can't "challenge" someone's credibility when you've got several aspects of your own experiment to iron out before you do.

 

I'll throw in this post for good measure that I don't know the guy nor am I "defending" his claims. This is more me playing Devil's advocate so you see there's some holes in your loosely constructed thread. There's plenty of other good points mentioned in this thread as well. It's about testing the limits of the vehicle and to do that you're going to need some agreed upon constants otherwise what are you even testing? How is it a test? What's it prove? Mo-Seph was one such person to highlight some aspects on their own as well as portions they called attention to, those are important if you want to construct an intelligent experiment. Malibu and Phyxius also bring up valid points.

 

Again, not trying to be a dick but they're things that need to be said and taken into consideration otherwise you may as well just be talking to yourself.

[mo-seph]

 

 

 

 

You probably beat his time by using a different racing line, he uses the same racing line for every car, even if it is not 100% optimal for those cars (and bikes which could cut corners more).

 

Now Try beating the time you set in the Adder in the Entity and I'm sure you will go faster in the entity

this exactly.... im surprised he thinks that because he got a better time he thinks hes disproving broughy. no. youre just on another level. use an entity on the same lines and compare, youll probably beat your addrer time

This is the fairest point on the topic so far

 

If you wana be scientific you need a constant and test the variable. In broughys case the constant is the racing line and the driver, the variable bein thecar

 

Woukdnt matter if he was clockin 1:30 laps, prpvided hes hittin the same lines every time its ONE method to objectively analyse performance difference....

 

But thats not the only way by a long shot, he ccould determine a variety of tests, includi ng track testin, acceleration testing, brakin distances, handling... But most people will have already stopped readin this post, nevermind broughy doin 45 min long videos ofextensive testin to make apoint. His videos make a point, you just need to understand it

 

 

People need to learn how to consider whats bein tested and how and make an informed judgement for thenselves based on objective analysis

 

I really don't see why people are focusing so hard on the racing line. I'm quite obviously using the racing line because I got a good time around the track, did I not?

I know exactly what he's testing, its just the fact that he's drawing ignorant conclusions that "X car is better than Y car and you will definitely win with X car because I got around this track quicker in it." He even made a video "explaining why" he got the results he got, and pretty much stuck a middle finger up to anyone who disagrees with him.

 

It's pure bullsh*t to be honest. Like I said, he's a great racer, but his attitude really gets on my tits.

Your entitled to your opinion dude, my post wasnt directed towards you personally, I think alot of people put too much emphasis on his videos bein the absolute truth and conclusion to all arguement

 

He presents a predictament, a well informed opinion, but an opinion none the less. That doesnt make it fact

 

But its also not specofically his fault that people misuse his testing for their own arguements. He states his case and for what its worth tests within the confines of his parametres. But it still remains an opinion, which your entitled to disagree upon

 

Havin somer race experience ill always side with the opinion that the driver needs to pick cars on their own preference and test for themselves, noone can tel you which car you will perform better in

[AbortSanity]

This guy think he is the Top Dog or some shizz?

 

Needs knocking down a peg or two, he is not The Stig...

[BSEANO]

 

Dude, I am not hating on him in any way, I don't know the guy and I've watched like 3 or 4 videos, so I can't judge him.

 

If he was saying "this car was better for me", I'd have no problem whatsoever. Its the fact that he's just straight up telling other people that this is the best car, buy these cars, based on his time around one track.

The constants of the test are the track and the driver, not following the same line to the inch. The racing line is just common ground of getting around any track in good time. He's going from A to B, from the start to the finish, in the fastest way possible. Certain cars need to be driven differently, which is why he couldn't squeeze a 54s lap time out of the Adder. I'm not saying I'm a better racer than he is, I'm just apparently better at driving the Adder, just like he's probably better than me at driving the Entity, but both he and most of the people who watch his videos don't seem to see things that way.

 

I've had the Elegy and Entity in the past but didn't take them around Coroners. I raced them stock and more or less matched his stock times, I just didn't keep them because I don't like them and can perform better with other cars.

 

Also I wouldn't call my gamertag "who I am". If someone walked up to me in town tomorrow and for whatever reason said "Hey aren't you BSEANO from the forums?", I'd be like, "er, yeah." I wouldn't scream and run away. A name on a screen isn't me as a person, and I'm not hiding anything. If someone really wanted to they could probably find it out anyway. I just consider my gamertag slightly personal information, even though everyone I play with and against can see it, but still I don't see what that has to do with anything.

 

I can see exactly what you and the other guys are saying and I'm not personally attacking Broughy, it just really bugs me that people treat those tests like the bible.

Everyone is different, and there are far too many variables to be as conclusive as he's trying to be. Of course I appreciate what he's done and I respect that he took the time and effort to do it, but despite saying in a discussion video that the driver has a large impact on how a car performs, he does say at the end of the video "let everyone know that these are the quickest cars in every class, fill up your garages with these". You can't say something like that when its like you said, a human experiment. He also says "if you think you can do better, there are the lap times on the screen to beat", and I did it and now I'm getting my head bitten off for it.

 

Anyway, apologies if I offended anyone, or him if he's reading this, I'm not trying to devalue his work or anyone else's opinion, I just wanted to get my point across that there is no single best car for every player in GTA:O.

This thread was not a personal attack on anyone.

Edited March 8, 2014 by BSEANO

[Happy_Killstick]

 

Isn't Broughys 54 time in a stock Entity?

 

 

 

...car test.

 

I just beat his Entity time in the Adder.

 

He got 54.869 solo around Cutting Coroners in a fully modded Entity, .

I thought Broughy did his comparisons with unmodified cars.

 

 

 

What an annoying voice, i can't watch it

[BSEANO]

I wish my essays in college were that long, f*cking hell.

[ashbashbluesfan]

Broughy's tests are about as good as they could possibly be with what's available to do these tests.

 

Funnily enough his results also reflect in the stats of the vehicles, even when something unexpected happens like the dominator beating the gauntlet if you check the handling file you can see that the dominator is much more aerodynamic than the gauntlet.

 

If I've been reading these posts right someone beat his score by 2 milliseconds in a 1 off race, using a different line and this somehow proves he's wrong about everything?

 

If your a good racer and you know other good racers then you should know that the elegy and entity are kings in their respective classes, this was well known long ago, I've never seen a truly good racer using anything else on the majority of races (races such as the commute, criminal records and route 68 etc excluded).

[bloatedsack]

 

The Adder actually has very very good grip, I never understood everyone's problem with it.

 

 

Bandwagon hate.

 

To be fair, it was easy to hate on them. Unlimited money resulted in everyone buying the most expensive because its obviously the best. Chrome cars, dollar rims, squeeky voices.

 

The thing is, while everyone's been busy hating on the Adder, the tryhards have all migrated to the Entity because it is simply an easier car to drive. It'll produce better times because its more balanced, and because its not as hard to push it to the limits.

 

The argument I present is that while its easier to produce good numbers, its simply not as much fun. I love when my Adder's tail breaks loose, and a moment of fishtailing is stopped cold as I smoothly bring the power up.

 

Your mileage may vary.

 

FWIW, in sports cars it was 9F over Elegy all day long for the same reason. The Jester seems to split the difference, removing alot of the "danger" in driving it.

[BSEANO]

Broughy's tests are about as good as they could possibly be with what's available to do these tests.

 

Funnily enough his results also reflect in the stats of the vehicles, even when something unexpected happens like the dominator beating the gauntlet if you check the handling file you can see that the dominator is much more aerodynamic than the gauntlet.

 

If I've been reading these posts right someone beat his score by 2 milliseconds in a 1 off race, using a different line and this somehow proves he's wrong about everything?

 

If your a good racer and you know other good racers then you should know that the elegy and entity are kings in their respective classes, this was well known long ago, I've never seen a truly good racer using anything else on the majority of races (races such as the commute, criminal records and route 68 etc excluded).

You're right, they are as good as they could be and he did a great job, but they are the results of one driver driving the cars around a track the way THEY do it, that's what I'm saying.

I beat his Entity time in the Adder by 249 milliseconds, not 2, and I've been consistently matching his personal Adder times and beating them every 5-10 laps. The majority of anyone's top times are a one off anyway, even Broughy said his Adder lap was a one off, so I don't see how that's relevant. Its very difficult to get a perfect lap, or to complete a lap to the best of your ability, no matter what the car is.

 

I literally never said he was wrong about everything, I'm just saying that his results are not 100% applicable to every single person who plays the game.

Edited March 8, 2014 by BSEANO

[Phyxsius-]

I really don't see why people are focusing so hard on the racing line. I'm quite obviously using the racing line because I got a good time around the track, did I not?

 

I know exactly what he's testing, its just the fact that he's drawing ignorant conclusions that "X car is better than Y car and you will definitely win with X car because I got around this track quicker in it." He even made a video "explaining why" he got the results he got, and pretty much stuck a middle finger up to anyone who disagrees with him.

 

It's pure bullsh*t to be honest. Like I said, he's a great racer, but his attitude really gets on my tits.

 

In Race Driver: GRID there were circuits with chicanes that you could jump altogether, by going straight, instead of actually braking and take the turn.

 

 

<--- Like what this guy is doing. It is by accident, but imagine him doing it on purpose. He can gain seconds, just because the limits of the track and the potential abuse of straight lines, even with all 4 wheel off the track, permit it. (Not GRID, but it`ll do for informative purposes)

 

 

<--- 1:19 is a good example of gaining time illegally.

__________________________

 

At this point, I can`t fail to notice that you are too vocal. If you are TRULY after testing, to see which car is better, you MUST do what he did, or use every bit of variable that he did - in this case, car mods, circuit, racing line. Because you sound like you`re nitpicking and fabricating evidence, by using "circuit shortcuts". If you REALLY want to see which car is better, you have to beat his Entity time by using the same line, or the same setting that he used.

Edited March 8, 2014 by Phyxsius-

[wimthetim]

you have provided absolutely no evidence and I honestly think your talking out your arse. why should anyone take you seriously without any proof?

 

the entity is Alot faster in broughy's videos modded or stock.

 

you talk well and seem intelligent but you cant be taken serious unless you show us proof of the times

Edited March 8, 2014 by wimthetim

[HometownLC]

 

I really don't see why people are focusing so hard on the racing line. I'm quite obviously using the racing line because I got a good time around the track, did I not?

 

I know exactly what he's testing, its just the fact that he's drawing ignorant conclusions that "X car is better than Y car and you will definitely win with X car because I got around this track quicker in it." He even made a video "explaining why" he got the results he got, and pretty much stuck a middle finger up to anyone who disagrees with him.

 

It's pure bullsh*t to be honest. Like I said, he's a great racer, but his attitude really gets on my tits.

 

In Race Driver: GRID there were circuits with chicanes that you could jump altogether, by going straight, instead of actually braking and take the turn.

 

 

<--- Like what this guy is doing. It is by accident, but imagine him doing it on purpose. He can gain seconds, just because the limits of the track and the potential abuse of straight lines, even with all 4 wheel off the track, permit it. (Not GRID, but it`ll do for informative purposes)

 

 

<--- 1:19 is a good example of gaining time illegally.

__________________________

 

At this point, I can`t fail to notice that you are too vocal. If you are TRULY after testing, to see which car is better, you MUST do what he did, or use every bit of variable that he did - in this case, car mods, circuit, racing line. Because you sound like you`re nitpicking and fabricating evidence, by using "circuit shortcuts". If you REALLY want to see which car is better, you have to beat his Entity time by using the same line.

 

 

While I agree with you that all testing parameters should be the same in regards to cars, car mods, and the track, the problem here is how do you define what the best racing line is and by virtue what a "circuit shortcut" is?

 

I ask this because since most if not all of the races on GTA take place on city streets and are based on a checkpoint system rather than a dedicated race track. The checkpoints only give a general outline of the course and does not define specific boundaries, so how each corner is taken is largely up to each individual driver. With this in mind how do you determine how close you can take a corner to have a "valid" lap.

 

There are several times Broughy clearly went off the pavement and cut over and across curbs and sidewalks (4:01, 4:07, 4:15, 4:26, to use his Entity demonstration as an example). Would that still be considered a good lap or would stepping off the actual road be considered gaining time illegally?

[Phyxsius-]

To me, the circuit is defined by the actual surface and it`s bounds - a street circuit would be defined by the sidewalks, with Formula 1 rules - keep 2 wheels inside the track at all times, with the track being only the tarmac.

 

Like, in his video, at the 5:50 mark, give or take, he constantly cuts with all 4 wheels across that bush kerb. Not the best and "fairest", but, other than that, he pretty much sticks to the tarmac and off the sidewalks. As for the 4:01 and above, he is almost religiously using 2 wheels on tarmac at all times. He is off in some of the turns, but not by much. He does have a tendency to cut too deep in that right hand corner, through the bush, though.

_________________________

 

My point is, and was in the above video examples: Stay off excessive cutting (like a shortcut, or a straight line between 2 checkpoints that isn`t included in the circuit).

_________________________

 

Using his 5:50-ish laps, one "valid" lap is using his exact racing line - which is pretty much in-apex-out, without excessive kerb use + that bush kerb cut. He also states that he DID manage one good lap with an Adder, but it is easier to keep constant low times with an Entity than a one off with an Adder. 5 laps of 50.7s is better than one of 50.5 and 4 of 55.4`s.

Edited March 8, 2014 by Phyxsius-

[Cuz05]

I think both sides have put their case rather well. This is something of a rarity. Nice one gents*.

I saw clear flaws with the OP, which have been covered, but have to say that his long post 11hrs ago was an admirable one.

 

*Doesn't apply to all of you obviously....

[reform]

Yeah man, what happened? A civil thread? Here?

[Raylion]

I do like Broughy's videos, definately one of the more informative Youtubers out there and people don't seem give him enough credit for the effort he's put in.

 

I don't think his efforts have produced results that can ever be considered fact. However, they are results that provide a very good indicator of the relative performance of cars that appear to have been tested in a non biased and consistant manner.

 

So I tip my hat to Broughy...and I should also mention that the Adder sucks! ;-p

Edited March 8, 2014 by Raylion

[Accendo]

Alright, that's enough. The f*ck were you guys thinking? This is no place for rational discussion! There needs to be at least ten more insults in each of your posts.

[Lucius Aelius]

The thing with the racing lines being used while testing is that different cars do have different optimal lines, but every course is different and if you run different lines it's as much a test of the course as anything else, running the same line over and over on the same course with different cars isn't a perfect test but it's not a bad test either if you're trying to be quick about it and aren't looking for perfection.

 

If you really wanted to be comprehensive you would have to test every car fully modded on every race (in both clear and rainy weather) with each car on it's own optimal line and then analyze the results, but even then for it to be truly comprehensive you'd need multiple people doing that on their own and then putting it all together and analyzing the results from everyone.