[spoilers] Rant about people and canon ending(s)

[HOW'S ANNIE?]

I'm not sure if this should be in the V section or Series Chat, but I'm posting it here anyway. This is not necessarily a topic about what ending is and isn't canon, it's how hypocritical people's train of thought is in relation to endings.

 

BOTTOM LINE IS YOU PEOPLE ARE AFFRAID OF THE DARK

 

Ok, so I've browsed these forums for a while and can conclusivley say that the general consensus is that in IV Revenge is canon and in V ending C is canon. Now, I won't waste my time debating this, but most of you are using complete opposite trains of thought to make this decision... Simply because you want to least harsh ending as possible.

 

Now look at IV. It seems completely obvious (to me) that Deal fits the story much better; as in the end you must kill a man who you've been enemies with for most of the story because he killed the person who's been there for you the entire plot. But according to people around here I'm wrong to say that because "Niko would never trust Dimitri again".

 

Now for V. Franklin is an utter sociopath, out of all three he seems to be able to kill without remorse and just not simply take what he did into thought (hell, even Trevor looks back on the people he's killed). So to me it seems Franklin would obviously chose to ice M or T if it meant that he didn't have the FIB and Merryweather coming down on his ass. But wait a second... Supposedly I'm wrong to chose that because it doesn't fit the story.

 

So someone please answer me this. Why is it that Niko's train of thought in IV seems to matter in relation to the ending. Yet with V, what any even half fittted criminal, like Franklin, would do doesn't matter? Because to me, it just simply seems like you all are affraid of GTA being overly dark.

[Racecarlock]

I haven't been here in a bit since no fuel or prison sentence on every bust topics showed up that would require my rage since the game came out.

 

To me, it doesn't matter which ending is considered canon. I chose C because it was the happiest. I like optimism, what can I say?

 

I would also say that this whole endings debate is pointless. If the generations or eras or whatever work like people think they do, then none of this sh*t will come up again aside from some references. CJ didn't come back, but epsilon and lazlow did. I don't think the next big GTA will really make any reference to this choice. Especially since it will most likely be on next gen systems, so unless they make slightly different phrases depending on your choices ala mass effect and can also find a way to make it so that next gen systems can read old saves from previous ones, our choices will mean jack sh*t anyways.

 

But that's the thing, isn't it? Moral choice will always be kind of pointless in games because you can just hit "New Game" and all will be erased and set up for another choice. "Kill or don't kill" might have made sense in GTA if people weren't already making that decision with every pedestrian on the sidewalk.

[PineboxFiller]

I think with V people just don't want to see a main character die because they hope that they will come back again or make some cameo in a future game. With them (R*) giving us three protagonists this time every person favors a different one, so saying "Deathwish" is the canon ending is so everyone is happy. I mean just look at all the fuss about johnny getting killed. The only ending I don't think that fits is killing Michael, though maybe your right and Franklin isn't beyond carrying out all 3. Though with Deathwish I would have to think that Franklin would consider that, for one, depending if you choose A or B one of the orders isn't carried out, and for two, even if he did kill one of the two for them they probably wouldn't leave him be afterwards and maybe even try to take him out afterwards to cover it up, much like they did with Michael in The Wrap Up.

 

As far as GTA IV goes though I don't know why people would care, so maybe your right, maybe they are afraid of it being overly dark in a game that is exactly that.

 

Racecarlock is right though, it doesn't really matter. Unless people just really want one of the protags to return in the next GTA so they can get stomped to death.

Edited February 27, 2014 by PineboxFiller

[Travís.]

I guess we'll just have to wait and see which is canon, no use trying to convince anyone.

By the way, I hate your signature.

[HOW'S ANNIE?]

I guess we'll just have to wait and see which is canon, no use trying to convince anyone.

I'm not trying to convince anyone any ending is canon. All I'm asking it why, when both game's are a part of the same series and universe, should I use two complete oposite trains of thought when chosing canon options.

 

By the way, I hate your signature.

And thank you. Thank you very much. The intention is to anger Trevor fanboys

[lol232]

Yeah yeah, but in the end, C is the canon ending.

The reason they added A and B is because most of the modern games had it, and also so players can see the "what if" scenario.

Edited February 27, 2014 by lol232

[HOW'S ANNIE?]

Yeah yeah, but in the end, C is the canon ending.

The reason they added A and B is because most of the modern games had it, and also so players can see the "what if" scenario.

For the last time I DO NOT CARE IF ENDING C IS CANON. All I want to know is Why is it right to use logic with IV's ending, yet I'm wrong to use logic for V's?

[tranceking26]

 

I guess we'll just have to wait and see which is canon, no use trying to convince anyone.

I'm not trying to convince anyone any ending is canon. All I'm asking it why, when both game's are a part of the same series and universe, should I use two complete oposite trains of thought when chosing canon options.

 

By the way, I hate your signature.

And thank you. Thank you very much. The intention is to anger Trevor fanboys

 

 

lol I like Trevor better than Johnny, but I find your sig funny and well made

 

On Topic: I guess it's just peoples opinions dude, for the most part people picked C and think Revenge was the canon in IV too. I do, but I respect anyone who may think otherwise. As for logic, well you are on GTAforums, logic sometimes gets launched out the window here

Edited February 27, 2014 by drr26

[WorldWideFM]

There are no canon endings. Anyone who tries to claim that any ending is "more canon" than the other is a fool. All endings are canon and it's up to the player to choice which one they want for that particular run of the story mode that they're partaking in.

 

Games are all about choice, and no decisions are more worthy than any others. Maybe I used gun X to complete mission Y. But my buddy used gun Z. Is one of those decisions more canon than the other? No, it'd be silly to say that there is a correct way to play a GTA mission, all of these variables; car choice, weapon choice, are in my domain and are what gaming is built on; giving players tools to create their own personalized experience. The exact same logic should be applied to story decisions as gameplay ones. It's like in RPGs... is it canon to blow up Megaton or let it be in Fallout 3? Both are canon, it's the player's choice. The act of making a decision in a story is a game mechanic in itself.

 

So rather than complaining about how people assign their decisions over which ending is canon, we should be complaining at the concept of canonicity when applied to a videogame. For the record, I agree with you that Deal is the best ending for GTA IV. In my opinion, the best story is that Niko take his revenge on Darko, learns that it brings him nothing and decides to become a new person with a fresh start by dealing with Dimitri, with absolutely disastrous consequences - that's a real tragedy, and I love a tragedy. It would have destroyed any man, I like that. For V, I think C is probably the best ending because to me it seems more fleshed out, I like the idea of Franklin killing his mentor, it's symbolic and I always wanted V to end with a protag death but I think he lacked proper motivation to do it (all they needed was a couple more cutscenes or missions to flesh out A and B a bit more) so I went with C.

 

But, to reiterate again to the GTAF masses; there is no such thing as a canon ending in these games.

[Travís.]

 

I guess we'll just have to wait and see which is canon, no use trying to convince anyone.

I'm not trying to convince anyone any ending is canon. All I'm asking it why, when both game's are a part of the same series and universe, should I use two complete oposite trains of thought when chosing canon options.

 

By the way, I hate your signature.

And thank you. Thank you very much. The intention is to anger Trevor fanboys

 

Not a fanboy, but we all know it just looks so much better the proper way.

 

 

[killahmatic]

another rant about the endings..

 

ugh.. who cares?

[Alec Skorpio]

I'm not sure if this should be in the V section or Series Chat, but I'm posting it here anyway. This is not necessarily a topic about what ending is and isn't canon, it's how hypocritical people's train of thought is in relation to endings.

 

BOTTOM LINE IS YOU PEOPLE ARE AFFRAID OF THE DARK

 

Ok, so I've browsed these forums for a while and can conclusivley say that the general consensus is that in IV Revenge is canon and in V ending C is canon. Now, I won't waste my time debating this, but most of you are using complete opposite trains of thought to make this decision... Simply because you want to least harsh ending as possible.

 

Now look at IV. It seems completely obvious (to me) that Deal fits the story much better; as in the end you must kill a man who you've been enemies with for most of the story because he killed the person who's been there for you the entire plot. But according to people around here I'm wrong to say that because "Niko would never trust Dimitri again".

 

Now for V. Franklin is an utter sociopath, out of all three he seems to be able to kill without remorse and just not simply take what he did into thought (hell, even Trevor looks back on the people he's killed). So to me it seems Franklin would obviously chose to ice M or T if it meant that he didn't have the FIB and Merryweather coming down on his ass. But wait a second... Supposedly I'm wrong to chose that because it doesn't fit the story.

 

So someone please answer me this. Why is it that Niko's train of thought in IV seems to matter in relation to the ending. Yet with V, what any even half fittted criminal, like Franklin, would do doesn't matter? Because to me, it just simply seems like you all are affraid of GTA being overly dark.

 

Niko's train of thought doesn't matter in relation to the ending. It only matters to you as most people on the internet choose Revenge thinking that Niko would rather kill Dimitri than trust him again.

 

The ending where Franklin kills Michael makes sense, I don't think anyone argues that (they shouldn't at least).

 

But Ending C is the only one that wraps up all the lose ends. It would also be the easiest to move forward with if they did want to take DLC in that direction.

 

I'm not going to go as far as say it's the canon ending yet as I am not convinced they are going to continue the story from the ending with DLC.

 

...but if they were to keep going with the story it more than likely would be the ending they would go with.

[caiaof]

 

Yeah yeah, but in the end, C is the canon ending.

The reason they added A and B is because most of the modern games had it, and also so players can see the "what if" scenario.

For the last time I DO NOT CARE IF ENDING C IS CANON. All I want to know is Why is it right to use logic with IV's ending, yet I'm wrong to use logic for V's?

 

Because your logic is wrong and you don't know the character

[XxX19Dude95XxX]

niko would never make the deal

[HOW'S ANNIE?]

 

 

 

Yeah yeah, but in the end, C is the canon ending.

The reason they added A and B is because most of the modern games had it, and also so players can see the "what if" scenario.

For the last time I DO NOT CARE IF ENDING C IS CANON. All I want to know is Why is it right to use logic with IV's ending, yet I'm wrong to use logic for V's?

 

Because your logic is wrong and you don't know the character How can I not know the character, when there was nothing to him? To me Franklin's lack of emotion boils down to him being a real sociopath. The three option to him (not myself) I imagine he would have viewed like this:

 

- Kill a completely loose canon, who could rip my heart out of my chest without warning

- Kill a rat, who's usefulness has run out to me, for the guy who still owes me sh*tloads of money

- Have half the people in Southern San Andreas coming down on my ass, simply because I don't have the balls to kill two men who are obviously nothing but a hiderance to me.

[cp1dell]

I honestly think the Deal is the canon.

 

With that, I think C would be the canon ending.

 

I liked the darkness and maturity of IV, I wish V would have continued down that same path. But with you're logic and reasoning that Franklin would have picked A or B, it still doesn't seem right. You're basing it off the idea that Franklin is a sociopath, but that's a pretty bold statement.

[Alec Skorpio]

Franklin doesn't "lack" emotion, he shows emotion throughout the whole damn game.

 

Just because he doesn't cry like a baby because he was in a war, or cries because he killed some dudes for some corrupt cops doesn't mean he doesn't have emotion.

 

Hell, try hanging out with people more or smoking dope as him.

Edited February 28, 2014 by liquidussnake119

[iainspad]

I wouldn't say it's because the other two endings are dark, but if you pick ending A or B Franklin then becomes no better than the protagonist he chooses to kill, it's all down to morality. In my opinion, Michael and Trevor are both potential antagonists because of their sociopathic and treacherous nature while Franklin is kept out of their loop, however, when he gets closer to them, he easily becomes no better than they are. Ergo, if you choose ending A or B there is no real joy from it as Franklin commits an act of betrayal and kills off one of his friends, making him no better if not worse than Michael or Trevor.

 

Ending C, however, is the potential canon ending because all three put aside their differences to fight those who are manipulating them. The game's message is anti-Illuminati (it's a subtle message) because we have manipulations from Billionaires, the Government, powerful gangs etc. and how they control people to do their dirty work for them. Differences aside, the protagonists take the fight to their oppressors together to fulfil their conquest of the almighty dollar.

 

If you don't pick Ending C, then you're stuck under that oppressive control as well as go off on a tangent of betrayal. Ending C finishes off the story and what these guys wanted to do the whole time: land a huge score, and f*ck anyone who stands in their way.

[cp1dell]

I think the biggest giveway for C is that when Haines and Dave approach Franklin saying he has to kill Trevor, he basically tells them to f*ck off and that he's grown to like Trevor.

 

When Devin goes to Franklin's house and says he has to kill Michael, Franklin is angered by this and kicks Devin out.

 

Unlike Michael and Trevor who would sometimes fly off the handle and want to kill the other, Franklin always showed respect for them and put them above his friends who could barely make any money. There was never any indication that Franklin considered listening to Haines or Devin.

 

And from a personal standpoint, it sticks to the typical GTA finale. At least in IV no matter what you chose you got the same mission with some roles swapped. In V you get two drastically different missions.

[Staten]

I honestly think the Deal is the canon.

 

With that, I think C would be the canon ending.

 

I liked the darkness and maturity of IV, I wish V would have continued down that same path. But with you're logic and reasoning that Franklin would have picked A or B, it still doesn't seem right. You're basing it off the idea that Franklin is a sociopath, but that's a pretty bold statement.

He's also ignoring Franklin's obvious discomfort in endings A and B, something a sociopath wouldn't do. As for V lacking the darkness of IV, I disagree; endings A and B are as bleak as the endings of IV if not more so: it would be like if Niko were forced to kill Roman himself.

[blakeney]

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

oh right... wrong spoiler?

[cp1dell]

 

I honestly think the Deal is the canon.

 

With that, I think C would be the canon ending.

 

I liked the darkness and maturity of IV, I wish V would have continued down that same path. But with you're logic and reasoning that Franklin would have picked A or B, it still doesn't seem right. You're basing it off the idea that Franklin is a sociopath, but that's a pretty bold statement.

He's also ignoring Franklin's obvious discomfort in endings A and B, something a sociopath wouldn't do. As for V lacking the darkness of IV, I disagree; endings A and B are as bleak as the endings of IV if not more so: it would be like if Niko were forced to kill Roman himself.

 

Yeah, two endings may be pretty bleak, but the rest of the game is still goofy most of the time.

[RetroSpectre]

Ok, "sociopath" is apparently the newest abused term for generic thug. Sociopaths are unable to process normal emotions, feel empathy, remorse, or quantify good versus bad. To a sociopathic murderer, the kill itself is a means to an end. Usually a sociopathic killer wants to play with your corpse. Killing you is simply a means of obtaining said corpse. Look up the classics like Ted Bundy, Jeffrey Dahmer, and Ed Gein and you'll see what I mean.

 

Franklin is like every other character in this half-hearted writing attempt: totally self involved with a massive inferiority/victim complex. Everything is everyone else's fault. His actions are not his choice but rather a reaction to the world around him. He's so reactive to other people's expectations that he feels guilt because he's "supposed to" (This would be empathy). And no, he doesn't hate Trevor. To him, Trevor is just another self-victim but with just a more visible set of consequences. Franklin feels empowered by this and can dilute himself into believing that he's better than Trevor. Meanwhile Trevor gets easily angered when dealing with Michael or Franklin because he sees his own weaknesses in them and hates them for it, much like he hates himself.

 

In GTA 4 Dimitri betrayed Niko and thus has earned a revenge. In 5, these are three characters who obviously love the chaos they're sewing but can't feel enjoyment from it while so many other Alpha personalities are around them. If they did admit to each other that they genuinely enjoyed killing and stealing, they would have to admit to themselves their faults. You see? These are PSYCHOPATHS not sociopaths, totally different animal. And totally different motivation. Trevor didn't wrong Franklin or Michael, Michael hurt Trevor but didn't really betray him in a way deserving death (Even by Trevor's standards), Michael and Franklin always treated each other with respect....so why would they turn on each other?

 

Especially when the person telling Franklin to turn on his "friends" is the same douche that A) hasn't paid for work done B) has tried to get them killed before C) has flat out dared Franklin to do something and D) needs to do this wet work (Again for free) because the rich douche has commanded it be done. He might as well have handed Franklin a loaded pistol with the safety off and told him to finish it right then and there.

 

These are WORLDS apart in my opinion and I'm not sure how the logic can confuse you.

[SmoothGetaway]

^^^

 

You're confusing socio and psychopaths in your first paragraph. You misspelled "Michael" at the beginning of your second paragraph.

 

OT:

 

I always played IV with Niko killing Darko, and then going after Dmitri. I really can't see how "logic" dictates that Niko would do business with him ever again. "Fool me once shame on you, fool me twice shame on me". I couldn't wait to kill that bastard and no amount of money was going to change that, exactly like Trevor when he was driving Devin to Paleto Bay,

 

As far as V goes, I think you're not taking into account that maybe F would want to say f*ck you to all these guys bossing him around. That was my first reaction.

 

You kill M you're still a patsy errand boy, same if you kill Trevor. f*ck that, I wanted to feel like my characters were their own men.

 

Anyway, just trying to give a perspective OP hasn't seemed to think of. It doesn't have to be dark to be GTA, sometimes it's about breaking out on your own.

[Eutyphro]

R* made the bad choice of not letting the black guy die like they do in every movie, jk. But really, both ending A and B make you feel like a judas, and you end up not being able to kill a lot of pricks that you kill in C. If I were to forget about losing a protag and all his vehicle storage capabilities, and if those endings would still let me kill assholes like Stretch, then I would consider it.

 

For the Deal and Revenge in IV: I just think the Deal mission is terrible. I think going back to the boat you came Liberty City on, and taking out Dimitri there, was awesome. I love that mission. And I also think it's more credible given the backstory. Maybe Roman dieing is better for the story, but he is my favourite buddy for bowling.

Edited February 28, 2014 by gtaxpert