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theadmiral

General North Korea discussion

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sivispacem

The DPRK clearly doesn't make enough money selling narcotics to survive, otherwise their population wouldn't need to resort to cannibalism.

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SouthLand

The DPRK clearly doesn't make enough money selling narcotics to survive, otherwise their population wouldn't need to resort to cannibalism.

I didn't say that the money they make by selling drugs is invested on the general public, we all know that the money is going to the elite while people in rural areas starve to death and oh boy if they try to escape and get caught in China.

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AEsob

I dunno if it has been covered or not, but living in NK is like living in George Orwell's 1984. In fact, DPRK has clearly taken some ideas from 1984. Like the radios that are always on, the same haircut and clothes for everybody in the country, the abject poverty and forced illusion of happiness.

 

If you chain up a person for 23 hours a day, beat him, neglect him and let him free for 1 hour per day for a whole year, in the end, that person will happily accept the 1 hour of freedom in poverty and totalitarian laws...he'll be like your slave, for the rest of your life.

 

Now replace person with DPRK population and you get the picture.

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SouthLand

I dunno if it has been covered or not, but living in NK is like living in George Orwell's 1984. In fact, DPRK has clearly taken some ideas from 1984. Like the radios that are always on, the same haircut and clothes for everybody in the country, the abject poverty and forced illusion of happiness.

 

If you chain up a person for 23 hours a day, beat him, neglect him and let him free for 1 hour per day for a whole year, in the end, that person will happily accept the 1 hour of freedom in poverty and totalitarian laws...he'll be like your slave, for the rest of your life.

 

Now replace person with DPRK population and you get the picture.

 

 

Your point makes sense, but people inside NK are actually becoming more aware of what goes on outside the DPRK. Mainly for two reasons:

 

- A; North Koreans are actually managing to see South Korean TV http://www.rfa.org/english/news/korea/tv-censors-cant-stop-north-koreans-from-watching-south-korean-programs-06052015160410.html

 

 

-B; Many North Koreans cross the border with China daily. (It's a river that's not that wide and with many areas unwatched) Most of those North Koreans got to China to buy stuff, Contraband, sell drugs etc... More North Koreans are doing this, so many people are starting to be aware about what goes on in China and the rest of the world.

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Uncle Sikee Atric

No matter how tight you pull the chain on the population, there will always be those that resist.

 

It is the slow leak of knowledge from outside the DPRK that is slowly loosening the grip on the general population, but I fear it will another generation before that knowledge is widespread enough to be effective against the regime.

 

Short term, the DPRK are going to remain a threat, but longer term the outlook is brighter. The regime will never submit to a hostile invasion, but civil unrest has more of a chance. Even though it will be risky for any civil leaders to try and lead an uprising.

 

I really could see the appearance of a new 'Mandela' peace figure arising from within the population trapped in the DPRK.

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AEsob

This just in. DPRK sentenced an American tourist to 15 years in prison with hard labour for stealing a flag in his hotel. Poor guy's called Otto Warmbeir. He won't be getting warm beer in a DPRK labour camp, that's for sure.

 

WTF is wrong with that country. Right, I'm even surprised. Silly old AEsob.

Edited by AEsob

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Uncle Sikee Atric

This just in. DPRK sentenced an American tourist to 15 years in prison with hard labour for stealing a flag in his hotel. Poor guy's called Otto Warmbeir. He won't be getting warm beer in a DPRK labour camp, that's for sure.

 

WTF is wrong with that country. Right, I'm even surprised. Silly old AEsob.

They'll get Kim Yong Lapdog (Since the generals have the real power) to pardon him in a few weeks / months. Make it all nice and public and not portray the DPRK as an insane dictatorship.

 

I bet a tenner Warmbeir has to shake hands with the Lapdog as he leaves North Korea too....

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Svip

Why?

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Uncle Sikee Atric

It always goes that way....

 

Fickle charges, mad sentence and eventual release after demonstration of harsh laws and sympathetic leader.

 

It happens in so many places across the world and is set to demonstrate false images of a caring leader.

 

This case and sentence stinks of something like this happening.

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Svip

Do you have any evidence of this happening before?

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AEsob

I don't think Kim's gonna let him go. Hell, it's the Japanese prisoner case all over again.

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Uncle Sikee Atric

It has happened in multiple cases before all across the world, with examples from as far afield as Columbia to the Middle East and Iran, right the way up to the Far East and China.

 

The DPRK has tried this trick before, but never with the current Lapdog in charge. First time for everything.... Besides, if he was a tourist on an organised trip, then the DPRK makes a little cash for the trips, they're not gonna want to quosh that way of generating revenue,even if it is only small.

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Svip

Again, you've yet to provide any concrete examples of this, beyond just saying that it has happened. Moreover, I don't care what other countries have done, I care about what North Korea have done in the past. And I do not recall a single event where North Korea has let a foreign prisoner go on the grounds that the leader was trying to appear caring to his people and/or the world.

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AEsob

What North Korea DID was kidnap people from South Korea, then built 'The Meeting Hall for Separated Families'...meaning once a year, you go to North Korea, and meet your loved ones that they f*cking kidnapped!

 

Then, Japan...in the 70's, DPRK kidnapped 13 Japanese citizens...fast forward to the early 2000s...needing food and aid, the (Un)Democratic Republic of Korea cleaned house, skinned some poor tailor and had him make a suit out of his own skin (that skin part was a joke, or was it?) and invited Junichirō Koizumi the prime minister of Japan for some drinks. Koizumi-san asked Kim about the 13 people, and idiotic Kim wasn't prepared for that.

 

In return for diplomatic aid, NK claimed that five of them were alive, the rest were dead. Then they let the five leave, on the condition that they return.

 

Once the PM and the five PTSD addled, traumatised hostages were out of the country, Mr. Koizumi showed North Korea the metaphorical middle finger, and cut off aid.

 

Is it just me or are the North Korean leaders idiots. Like slapstick comedy three stooges type idiots.

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SouthLand

No matter how tight you pull the chain on the population, there will always be those that resist.

 

It is the slow leak of knowledge from outside the DPRK that is slowly loosening the grip on the general population, but I fear it will another generation before that knowledge is widespread enough to be effective against the regime.

 

Short term, the DPRK are going to remain a threat, but longer term the outlook is brighter. The regime will never submit to a hostile invasion, but civil unrest has more of a chance. Even though it will be risky for any civil leaders to try and lead an uprising.

 

I really could see the appearance of a new 'Mandela' peace figure arising from within the population trapped in the DPRK.

 

I am going to breakdown a bit all the things you said to explain why things look like they are NOT going to change:

 

A. Population is too weak to start a revolution or try to organize themselves. Also, NK military and police shoot first and then ask questions so a plan to start a revolution is not happening.

 

B. A military coup is not going to happen either, because Kim Jong il and his son Kim Jong Un have already made the elite in NK wealthy enough to side with the dictator. The generals and high rank commanders of the army are also treated very well and given lots of money to stay loyal.

 

C. Some of the defectors that have escaped NK, served in the military, that's why they created a paramilitary force to try to go back and end with the Kim dynasty.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/North_Korean_People's_Liberation_Front

 

I don't think that's going to work either, since NK has a huge army and civilians to scared to join them.

 

 

This just in. DPRK sentenced an American tourist to 15 years in prison with hard labour for stealing a flag in his hotel. Poor guy's called Otto Warmbeir. He won't be getting warm beer in a DPRK labour camp, that's for sure.

 

WTF is wrong with that country. Right, I'm even surprised. Silly old AEsob.

 

One word: Politics. They don't care about the flag he stole, that might even be false. They arrested him to do an international political drama. Maybe for the pressures NK is getting for their nuclear bomb.

 

 

 

Again, you've yet to provide any concrete examples of this, beyond just saying that it has happened. Moreover, I don't care what other countries have done, I care about what North Korea have done in the past. And I do not recall a single event where North Korea has let a foreign prisoner go on the grounds that the leader was trying to appear caring to his people and/or the world.

 

Does the japanese citizens held by NK for more than 15 years count?

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Uncle Sikee Atric

I did say it will take a generation before any kind of weakness appears through the slow leak of info, so for me, longer term means 20+ years, not tomorrow....

 

My argument over that point is valid. The DPRK can currently hold the information over 99.9% of their population, but what about in 20 years? The worldwide info network is not going to stop progress because the DPRK told it not to, so how much info will the North Korean population be able to 'intercept and use' given 20 years of progress beyond their borders?

 

A revolution is not going to happen tomorrow, the population is too 'brainwashed', but the start of the change is happening. Even in 20 years being a leader of a revolutionary faction will be incredibly dangerous, but it will not stop some from trying.

 

Indeed, I am expecting some to fail before any success happens and I can imagine the fate of those who fail will be nasty, but their fate will resolve others to keep trying....

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SouthLand

I did say it will take a generation before any kind of weakness appears through the slow leak of info, so for me, longer term means 20+ years, not tomorrow....

 

My argument over that point is valid. The DPRK can currently hold the information over 99.9% of their population, but what about in 20 years? The worldwide info network is not going to stop progress because the DPRK told it not to, so how much info will the North Korean population be able to 'intercept and use' given 20 years of progress beyond their borders?

 

A revolution is not going to happen tomorrow, the population is too 'brainwashed', but the start of the change is happening. Even in 20 years being a leader of a revolutionary faction will be incredibly dangerous, but it will not stop some from trying.

 

Indeed, I am expecting some to fail before any success happens and I can imagine the fate of those who fail will be nasty, but their fate will resolve others to keep trying....

 

 

I am not saying your argument is invalid because it's not. You have a point, i just thought we where talking about a 5-10 year timeline. Though there might be a flaw to your argument. You said; "The worldwide info network is not going to stop progress because the DPRK told it not to". What if NK's infrastructure is so poor information from abroad is still very uncommon? Just look closely, The average North Korean bloke can't afford a car, nor travel with trains without permission and even less own a smartphone.

 

I have listened to defectors stories and they always share the same thing; "I heard that outside NK, the world was doing better when i was in a labor camp and another parishioner told me about his trips to China" Not a good place to know information you can use because you are treated like a slave and imprisoned

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Uncle Sikee Atric

Maybe, but with the regular population crossing the border into China daily, it shouldn't be too long before the business minded start smuggling in restricted items in greater quantities....

 

Time will tell.

 

I can imagine those with access to the info will be hubs for passing that info round as they can afford the expensive equipment necessary. Even the rich will have dissidents in their ranks.

Edited by Sikee Atric

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SouthLand

Panama Papers: British Banker Helped North Korea Sell Arms, Expand Nuclear Program

 

The British banker Nigel Cowie, who lived in North Korea for over two decades, allegedly set up an offshore company used by Pyongyang to expand its nuclear weapons program and sell arms. News of his involvement came to light following Sundays leak of the Panama Papers, which have shed light on global offshore finance arrangements.

 

 

Cowie moved to North Korea in 1995, rising to become head of Daedong Credit Bank (DCB), the countrys first foreign bank, The Guardian reports. In 2006, he led a group of investors that bought a 70 percent stake in the bank. That same year, Cowie registered an offshoot of DCB in the British Virgin Islands, which law firm Mossack Fonsecawhose clients make up the Panama Papersincorporated.

 

 

In 2013, the U.S. imposed sanctions on the company, claiming that it provided financial services to institutions central to North Koreas arms race, Reuters reports. The offshoot also, the U.S. alleges, carried out international financial transactions with countries trying to avoid North Korea. Mossack Fonseca didnt notice Cowies links to North Koreadespite him giving an address thereuntil 2010 when it resigned as agent.

 

http://europe.newsweek.com/panama-papers-mossack-fonseca-north-korea-444452?rm=eu

 

 

Mafia country doing what they know best and of course, some intermediary doing business getting his cut as well. You might agree or disagree with the government of the DPRK, but, one can't deny that North Korea has by far the best organized crime network / mafia in the world. Because even if countries know what's going on and try to stop it by getting to the source, it means looking for trouble with one of the biggest armies in the world.

Edited by SouthLand

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G's Ah's

I remember watching a Japanese documentary last year that showed that North Korea was obtaining funding and foreign currency through money laundering schemes, so this doesn't come as a surprise.

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AEsob

Money laundering, selling drugs, kidnappings, murders, maybe human traffic.

 

I dunno what NK doesn't do at this point.

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SouthLand

I remember watching a Japanese documentary last year that showed that North Korea was obtaining funding and foreign currency through money laundering schemes, so this doesn't come as a surprise.

 

One of the best out there.

 

I feel the need of sharing it:

 

 

 

Money laundering, selling drugs, kidnappings, murders, maybe human traffic.

 

I dunno what NK doesn't do at this point.

 

Treat it's citizens as people and not cattle.

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Michael

This just in. DPRK sentenced an American tourist to 15 years in prison with hard labour for stealing a flag in his hotel. Poor guy's called Otto Warmbeir. He won't be getting warm beer in a DPRK labour camp, that's for sure.

 

When going on vacation in North Korea, you must accept the fact that there are strict rules in North Korea and before going to North Korea, many websites of the independent travel companies are giving advice what to do and what not to do. If you don't want to bow for a monument or buy flowers and lay it somewhere because it's normal for that country and it's a law, you probably shouldn't go on vacation in North Korea. Otto did something really stupid and that was ripping of an political propaganda poster at the staff only area in the Yanggakdo International Hotel. Why did he even come in the staff only area? He's an backpacker, not an staff member. And to be honest, I am not saying that Warmbier deserved to be detained for fifteen years but stealing an political propaganda poster in an country where the human rights and laws are so different and not like the laws in the United States, you must and should expect the consequences.

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universetwisters

Poor kid brought it on himself. You're a guest in their country and henceforth, you gotta follow the rules of the dictatorship you're visiting.

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SouthLand

North Korea follows a very strict policy, but, it's proven that if you show RESPECT and praise their leaders, your demands can be satisfied. In other words, if this kid had showed interest and respect to the North Korean leaders, he could have asked their "tour guides" where to get propaganda posters, and they would probably find some for him or take him to a factory where he could buy a few or so.

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G's Ah's

The DPRK clearly doesn't make enough money selling narcotics to survive, otherwise their population wouldn't need to resort to cannibalism.

 

Do you really think that money would be spent on the North Korean people? Good Lord no. That money is used by Kim Jong Un for the gifts system his father set up to keep most of the military and party elders amused when he isn't killing his extended family or to fund the nuclear program and ballistic missile technology research. Because tiny nuclear warheads with not enough yield to flatten lower Manhattan are expensive.

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sivispacem

Of course not, I was being facetious. The point I was making still stands, though, the income from the DPRK's drug trade is nice but it's not exactly their major revenue stream, even taking the most wildly exaggerated estimates.

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SouthLand
sivispacem

Way to totally miss my point.

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SouthLand

I did not miss your point. You just refereed to the drug trade and I wanted to also include a list of other illicit activities the DPRK is very involved in.

 

You say that North Korea's revenue stream cannot only come from illegal activities? Well maybe, as i said before in this thread, everything we say here, it's just pure speculation because we DO NOT have access to a reliable source inside North Korea to check our facts. Let's focus on what we do know, I like to think about the Korean peninsula as a chessboard. South Korea are the blue pieces and North Korea are the red pieces (To avoid misleading statements I decided to change the colors white and black for blue and red). The blue pieces (SK) are played by a player called United States and the Red pieces (NK) are played by a player called China.

 

In other words, The Korean peninsula is a buffer zone between China's interest sand the US interests and both play their role supporting a different country in the peninsula.

 

 

TL;DR: Taking this in hand, I believe that North Korea get's it's money from criminal activities + few legal activities and a lot of help from especially China and who knows if Russia and Iran are involved.

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