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theadmiral

General North Korea discussion

Recommended Posts

DOUGL4S1

Apparently, this missile went far enough to hit Guam, and it could certainly annihilate Japan and S. Korea. We may see a 65 yr-old stalemate be resolved in less than a day.

 

I'd love to see what would happen if a country, maybe USA, destroyed one of those missile tests from NK. It would either make Fatty Man back up or kickstart a conflict.

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Triple Vacuum Seal

I'd love to see what would happen if a country, maybe USA, destroyed one of those missile tests from NK.

 

Well it would be incredibly risky. Or should I say risqué?

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Tchuck

The missile doesn't have to annihilate either country, and it won't. They would need several warheads to land in order to annihilate anything.

But all of that is useless, because the real danger would come from EMP attacks. Imagine all your power and networking infrastructure suddenly go down. All your eletronics becoming waste. Hospitals, rescue services, finance, everything f*cked up instantly. That's where the real danger lies.

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Triple Vacuum Seal

I'm not convinced they've even miniaturized the warheads in a sufficient manner for accurate delivery. But being a casual observer of these matters, I wouldn't bet on it either way.

 

On a side note, with China being only a nominal ally of NK, one must wonder what kind of access Beijing really has to the NK propaganda/information apparatus. Im sure it's severely limited since China also delegitimizes the supreme leader by giving lip service to reunification. Chinese influence on the North's civilian information is probably far superior to that of the US atm. Perhaps the US can lean on Beijing to use that? China has much to lose when the crash of global financial markets ends their multi decade run of growth due to an invasion on the peninsula.

Edited by Triple Vacuum Seal

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liaz6212

1506363300.jpg

 

- Hey, open this door or I'll break...

- ...WHAT?

- Uh! I'll break another one.

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Svip

I am not sure what your point is; if this to share something funny, then this isn't the place.

 

If you are trying to suggest some Russians sympathises or support North Korea, then I don't think this comic is supportive of that argument. Or at least, not enough.

 

Russia's government may not strike the same aggressive tone as the US, but they certainly do not approve of North Korea's actions. Like China, they prefer the status quo. Tensions are bad for business, m'kay? Well, tensions in Korea, anyway.

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Uncle Sikee Atric

While that cartoon isn't very funny or relaxing, it does point at the problems of the US and Trumps' determination to destroy everything possible.

I don't think Kim Jong Un is really that powerful or intimidating. It was clear the nukes the DPRK were developing are purely defensive, so having him portrayed as the big man isn't really true. In reality, Trump should have opened the door and run smack into a brick wall, with possibly a little peephole for Un to stare through!

 

It's an interesting (Russian) cartoon and a fresh perspective on the debate, but offers very little we didn't already know / suspect.

Edited by Uncle Sikee Atric

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Crokey

<cartoon>

 

 

 

I am not sure what your point is; if this to share something funny, then this isn't the place.

 

 

Is the correct answer...

 

@liaz6212: Just to clarify that in Debates and Discussion, the expectation is a little more thought and content, than what may fly in General Chat.

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M*A*R*I*N*A

I feel very sorry for North Korea, they're not our enemies and we're not theirs, they're victims of their own leaders and nothing more. I hope I live to see the day when that country is finally set free.

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Triple Vacuum Seal

I'd suggest settling in with a couple of beers because it's a long interview, but this fellow has some quality insights on the NK matter. In fact, some of his forecasts have materialized since this interview was given back in 2015...

 

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_47_

Almost about that time to pull the trigger. I hope I will be one of many soldiers on the lines helping get rid of Kim's regime once and for all. China can have North Korea. As long as Kim Mcfatty and all those that support him are either dead or in jail, I will be happy for whatever comes afterwards.

 

 

Kim Jong Un is a mean bastard, and mean bastards you need to hang. - Hateful Eight reference.

Edited by _47_

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Typhus

Almost about that time to pull the trigger. I hope I will be one of many soldiers on the lines helping get rid of Kim's regime once and for all. China can have North Korea. As long as Kim Mcfatty and all those that support him are either dead or in jail, I will be happy for whatever comes afterwards.

 

 

Kim Jong Un is a mean bastard, and mean bastards you need to hang. - Hateful Eight reference.

Yes, yes, very brave of you. But I wouldn't be so eager to throw your life away, or the lives of all the Koreans who will doubtlessly be slaughtered if such a war occurs. War is not an inevitability, and negotiation can still work. It will take a climbdown on America's part, and a determined effort to rein in this President and his rhetoric, but looking at North Korea's history, behind their bluster they are receptive to diplomatic overtures.

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Tchuck

 

As long as Kim Mcfatty and all those that support him are either dead or in jail, I will be happy for whatever comes afterwards.

 

So you advocate the extermination of an entire country because....?

 

 

Kim Jong Un is a mean bastard, and mean bastards you need to hang. - Hateful Eight reference.

 

Executioner, hang thyself. By openly advocating for genocide, you technically become a mean bastard. And, according to you, mean bastards need to hang. So... Going rope shopping soon?

 

Yeah, all your retarded bravado aside, I'm thinking war is becoming more unlikely now. China doesn't want it, the Koreas don't want it, Japan doesn't want it. NK has quieted down with its testes, which is nice. And now they have the capability to strike continental America anyway, so you can't really attack them without some retaliation that may end up reaching American soil.

 

Again, there is no realistic scenario where this doesn't end in millions of dead. None. And moreover, it would be political suicide for Trump and the republicans. You remember how Vietnam sucked? A war against NK would be Vietnam times a thousand. You'd have mass casualties not only on the NK side, but also on the SK side. America would be sacrificing their ally in order to achieve... nothing. This would send a very, very strong and resounding message to all of America's allies: "We'd rather have you destroyed by our enemies on a conflict we caused than find a peaceful solution". Which would pretty much be the death of America as a world leader.

 

But that's what a reasonable actor would do. There's no telling what Trump would do.

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make total destroy

I hope I will be one of many soldiers on the lines helping get rid of Kim's regime once and for all.

you know you cant respawn irl right?

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DareYokel

He's obviously 12. Why bother responding?

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DOUGL4S1

Taking a bit of history into account, the Cuban Missile Crisis was solved rather peacefully, apart from the odd incident here and there. It was also a situation 10x worse than what NK is currently doing, with nuclear missiles controlled by another superpower with hatred for Americans. Sure, Kim might be a bit more closed to chat than Khrushchev, but an agreement is still possible, specially with China.

 

On the absolute worst scenario, something similar to what happened on those Cold-War close calls might happen to either NK or the USA, where their system spots clouds, a flock of birds or red balloons and mistake them for missiles. Hell, this might happen every day, we just have no way of knowing.

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Svip

If you think about it, the Cuban Missile Crisis gave the USSR exactly what they wanted: US missiles removed from Turkey and Italy, plus a promise by the US to never invade Cuba without direct provocation.

 

Which also highlights the significant difference between that crisis and this crisis. The USSR is a rational actor. They definitely wanted to terrify the Americans, but they probably calculated that their missiles on Cuba would not be permanent, because the US would throw up too much of a fit. And as such, they realised they could get something in exchange: Missiles that they felt was a threat to them.

 

Indeed, I wouldn't be surprised if the whole thing was orchestrated by the USSR simply to get the US to withdraw its missiles. And to arrange a protection of Cuba - without the actual missiles, of course. If we only look at the ends, rather than the means, the Cuban Missile Crisis was a great success for the USSR, and a concession for the US. (Even though it is usually portrayed differently in the US and the West.)

 

Looking at Korean crisis, there are some obvious differences. Assume - for one - that despite their chaotic rhetoric that DPRK is a rational actor, they just like not appearing as such, because it makes everyone nervous. The primary purpose for their nuclear weapons programme is to ensure the longevity of their state. They genuinely fear that the US and South Korea would invade, if they did not have these weapons to adequately defend themselves.

 

Maintaining a million man strong army is no longer sustainable in DPRK, and nuclear weapons - while expensive to develop - are a lot cheaper to maintain.

 

This raison d'être for these weapons suggests that DPRK are not willing to give them up. No amount of concessions the US, South Korea or the West could offer them would be enough to cancel their programme. Even if we started pouring tonnes of money into the regime, they would still be reluctant to do so. Plus, that's simply not going to happen as voters in the West would be opposed to such a scheme, and any government that tried that would not see itself re-elected.

 

Which means that the negotiations would be stalled even before they started. And that's under the best of circumstances. Having President Donald Trump at the helm just makes it more difficult for US diplomats to present a coherent policy to the US' allies, its partners, regional powers (see: China) and DPRK itself.

 

A better solution to this crisis a covert one. One where information is smuggled into DPRK about South Korea and the West. This is already happening, and it is slowly having an effect on the North Korean people. Of course, this strategy is long term, and may take a generation before we actually start to see any significant movement on that front. And in that time, a lot could have happened.

 

Indeed, DPRK probably hopes something has happened in the mean time. This is why they are trying to provoke the US to a war. Millions and millions would die in such a conflict. And while the US would win, it will seem like a Pyrrhic victory. Of course, DPRK aren't actually interested in a war - as it would mean their destruction - but they are interested in the constant prospects of a war. As long as the world is on edge, they feel safe. Because when the world is not on edge, they might have to start fearing their own people instead.

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_47_

Irregardless of what anyone elses opinion on the matter. This will happen whether you like it or not. Negotiations are over. Kim doesn't want to give over his nukes, then the only diplomacy left is war.

 

Apparently the only thing a North Korean soldier or officer understands is a bullet.

 

The clock is ticking and time is running out for North Korea.

Edited by _47_

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DOUGL4S1

A better solution to this crisis a covert one. One where information is smuggled into DPRK about South Korea and the West. This is already happening, and it is slowly having an effect on the North Korean people. Of course, this strategy is long term, and may take a generation before we actually start to see any significant movement on that front. And in that time, a lot could have happened.

I agree with most of what you said, but I don't think people from NK would believe or accept any information about the rest of the world. There are interviews with supposed DPRK defectors where they say Chinese movies are often smuggled into the country and sold in villages, but most people believe them to be propaganda, which I can kinda see why. While someone from the Elites would have more access to information, one way or another, I can see why a farmer living in a village in the middle of NK would at least doubt about it, specially considering the propaganda their own government does while half of the country starves to death.

 

It's pretty much like that for us about NK, it's hard to find facts about it without stumbling upon some sort of propaganda from either side. Pyongyang has been observed to have dozens of skyscrapers, but they're also known to make fake villages and buildings to make their country seem more developed (specially near the DMZ).

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Dacelo

Irregardless of what anyone elses opinion on the matter. This will happen whether you like it or not. Negotiations are over. Kim doesn't want to give over his nukes, then the only diplomacy left is war.

 

Apparently the only thing a North Korean soldier or officer understands is a bullet.

 

The clock is ticking and time is running out for North Korea.

This subforum is for reasonable discussion, so if your stance is 'irregardless of anyone else's opinion' this is not the place for you. You come off almost exactly as dogmatic and brainwashed in your views as most people mistakenly view the average North Korean citizen.

 

226 thousand people were killed either within or due to the effects of the bombings of Hiroshima and Nagasaki. There are 25 million people living in NK. Can't you see that warfare is not the answer?

Edited by D.B. Cooper

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_47_

 

 

As long as Kim Mcfatty and all those that support him are either dead or in jail, I will be happy for whatever comes afterwards.

 

So you advocate the extermination of an entire country because....?

 

 

Kim Jong Un is a mean bastard, and mean bastards you need to hang. - Hateful Eight reference.

 

Executioner, hang thyself. By openly advocating for genocide, you technically become a mean bastard. And, according to you, mean bastards need to hang. So... Going rope shopping soon?

 

Yeah, all your retarded bravado aside, I'm thinking war is becoming more unlikely now. China doesn't want it, the Koreas don't want it, Japan doesn't want it. NK has quieted down with its testes, which is nice. And now they have the capability to strike continental America anyway, so you can't really attack them without some retaliation that may end up reaching American soil.

 

Again, there is no realistic scenario where this doesn't end in millions of dead. None. And moreover, it would be political suicide for Trump and the republicans. You remember how Vietnam sucked? A war against NK would be Vietnam times a thousand. You'd have mass casualties not only on the NK side, but also on the SK side. America would be sacrificing their ally in order to achieve... nothing. This would send a very, very strong and resounding message to all of America's allies: "We'd rather have you destroyed by our enemies on a conflict we caused than find a peaceful solution". Which would pretty much be the death of America as a world leader.

 

But that's what a reasonable actor would do. There's no telling what Trump would do.

 

 

Clearly didn't understand the phrase. Wow. Lol. When did I ever advocate the genocide of an entire population? I think that is your ignorant liberal side talking, the only ones that need taking care of are people loyal to Kim.

 

No matter who wants it, the longer Kim stays in the worse it will get. Some of you can't get it through your thick skulls that one way or another Kim has to go. Either internal civil war or war itself. There are no options left.

 

The pressure will continue until Kim has no room left to breathe and he is forced to either stop or attack. This isn't checkers, it's chess.

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_47_

 

Irregardless of what anyone elses opinion on the matter. This will happen whether you like it or not. Negotiations are over. Kim doesn't want to give over his nukes, then the only diplomacy left is war.

 

Apparently the only thing a North Korean soldier or officer understands is a bullet.

 

The clock is ticking and time is running out for North Korea.

This subforum is for reasonable discussion, so if your stance is 'irregardless of anyone else's opinion' this is not the place for you. You come off almost exactly as dogmatic and brainwashed in your views as most people mistakenly view the average North Korean citizen.

 

226 thousand people were killed either within or due to the effects of the bombings of Hiroshima and Nagasaki. There are 25 million people living in NK. Can't you see that warfare is not the answer?

 

Talking sure hasn't worked for the past 50 years. Giving them aid or money hasn't worked either, when was it ever ok to let some dictator of any country have nukes? I'm pretty sure if the world reverted back to the 1940s no one would've stood for this mess.

 

I don't know anything about history, yep. I'm brainwashed. Lmao.

 

Sh*t if you can't use a carrot, use the stick. Get rid of the North Korean government once and for all and the world can move forward with one less dictator with a nuke. No, it does matter that he has one, the potential risk for him to use it or sell it to some rogue group is too high. Even if the chances of Kim launching a successful ICBM is low, one way or another this has to be stopped permanently.

Edited by _47_

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Svip

You act as if the last 50 years are exactly the same as these years. Until the collapse of the USSR, it was hardly possible to negotiate with DPRK, because they were protected by the Soviets. Furthermore, while a tense situation, there was little interest in further escalation and there were no signs that DPRK would try to develop nuclear weapons. Which meant that maintaining the status quo was acceptable to both sides.

 

Since the Soviet collapse, China took over as the protector of North Korea, a position they maintained staunchly for the first fifteen years since the USSR collapse. It has only been over the past ten years, that China has gotten further and further fed up with North Korea's behaviour, which seems to flaunt at even Chinese recommendations (read: demands).

 

If anything, this crisis is more China's doing than the West's. Their own obsession with protecting their neighbour and sphere of influence combined with a miscalculation in terms of the threat NK would end up being has led to our current situation. Indeed, this is one of the areas where I agree with Donald Trump; this is China's problem in the making, and they should work harder to find a solution. They might be, actually, and perhaps Trump's erratic behaviour may be hampering (or helping, who knows?) their solution behind the scenes.

 

Indeed, US talks with North Korea first started happening during the 1990s under President Clinton. So it would be more appropriate to say that the last 25 years of talks haven't really produced any useful results so far.

 

 

 

A better solution to this crisis a covert one. One where information is smuggled into DPRK about South Korea and the West. This is already happening, and it is slowly having an effect on the North Korean people. Of course, this strategy is long term, and may take a generation before we actually start to see any significant movement on that front. And in that time, a lot could have happened.

I agree with most of what you said, but I don't think people from NK would believe or accept any information about the rest of the world. There are interviews with supposed DPRK defectors where they say Chinese movies are often smuggled into the country and sold in villages, but most people believe them to be propaganda, which I can kinda see why. While someone from the Elites would have more access to information, one way or another, I can see why a farmer living in a village in the middle of NK would at least doubt about it, specially considering the propaganda their own government does while half of the country starves to death.

 

Strangely enough, it's not Chinese movies that are interesting them, but rather South Korean sitcoms. Indeed, these seems to be the strongest influence on North Koreans, because they show a life style completely uncommon to them, yet it is often presented as being normal for people to have in South Korea.

 

Plus, they both speak Korean, so they don't need subtitles.

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sivispacem

Irregardless

Even putting aside the fact that the rest of your contributions are frankly nonsense (seriously, "I don't care what anyone else says, I'm right and you're all wrong" is an ugly look on even the most intelligent and rational posters), most people with sense will have switched off immediately at this non-word.

 

Talking sure hasn't worked for the past 50 years.

I don't know if you've missed this, bit there's been a huge acceleration in both rhetoric and development of DPRK nuclear capability which has been driven by aggressive rhetoric. The security situation between the DPRK and the wider world has declined more in eleven months of Trump than it did under the supervision of every consecutive US president since the late 1960s.

 

when was it ever ok to let some dictator of any country have nukes? I'm pretty sure if the world reverted back to the 1940s no one would've stood for this mess.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soviet_atomic_bomb_project

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/China_and_weapons_of_mass_destruction

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_47_

 

Irregardless

Even putting aside the fact that the rest of your contributions are frankly nonsense (seriously, "I don't care what anyone else says, I'm right and you're all wrong" is an ugly look on even the most intelligent and rational posters), most people with sense will have switched off immediately at this non-word.

 

Talking sure hasn't worked for the past 50 years.

I don't know if you've missed this, bit there's been a huge acceleration in both rhetoric and development of DPRK nuclear capability which has been driven by aggressive rhetoric. The security situation between the DPRK and the wider world has declined more in eleven months of Trump than it did under the supervision of every consecutive US president since the late 1960s.

 

when was it ever ok to let some dictator of any country have nukes? I'm pretty sure if the world reverted back to the 1940s no one would've stood for this mess.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soviet_atomic_bomb_project

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/China_and_weapons_of_mass_destruction

 

Point #1- Take it for what you will. I said my piece and opinion on it based off the current climate of the issue. Don't really care on how aweful you "think" my cohesive writing ability is. Last time I checked, this was a public forum and not a university for writing term papers. Feel free to be upset by my writing style or verbage while I continue to post how I deem fit to post my way without violating the forum rules.

 

No one ever said I had to agree with anyone elses thoughts on the subject either. I said my contribution. No harm no foul.

 

Point # 2 - I could see that

 

Point #3 - China and Soviet Union didn't have dictators that does what Kim Jong Un does on a weekly basis. Soviet Russia caused the cuban missile crisis as well as the reason for the nuclear build up due to the cold war which was the only time WW3 was a possibility.

 

China was more of an afterthought and not currently threatening the world or anyone with nukes either. China and Russia weren't / aren't dictatorships that kill thousands of its own citizens for menial troubles.

 

Again my opinion. Agree to disagree.

Edited by _47_

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Coin

 

 

226 thousand people were killed either within or due to the effects of the bombings of Hiroshima and Nagasaki. There are 25 million people living in NK. Can't you see that warfare is not the answer?

 

 

To add to this; it's not just the population north of the border either. Approximately that many people live in the Seoul metro area alone, with population centers well within the range of more conventional weapons that NK employs.

Edited by Coin

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sivispacem

I said my piece and opinion on it based off the current climate of the issue.

And, as far as I can discern, you have no clear grasp of geopolitics, strategy, history, or any other discipline which would enlighten your view on the subject. So your assurance that you must be right above all else is particularly entertaining in its delusion.

 

Don't really care on how aweful you "think" my cohesive writing ability is.

You probably should, given that D&D is a highly moderated section of the forum that's supposed to be dedicated to coherent, informed and rational discussion. Posts that could essentially be boiled down to "I'm right and you're wrong so there" would be spam pretty much anywhere on the forum, and that goes doubly for here, you you'd better come back with something resembling a coherent argument.

 

China and Soviet Union didn't have dictators that does what Kim Jong Un does on a weekly basis.

In what respect? In terms of wreaking vastly disproportionate Stalinist miserly on their populations, instigating and fermenting foreign conflicts, funding terrorism and overseas assassinations and publicly broadcasting their evolving military might complete with pithy threats to the West, I think you'll find they did.

 

the cuban missile crisis ...was the only time WW3 was a possibility.

I can think of one incident that was just as close (Able Archer 83 and the false US strategic launch alerts caused under RYAN, the Soviet response,) and about half a dozen incidents where the bombers were fuel and in the air or missiles were primed for launch, including the Yom Kippur war, Suez and the aftermath of KAL007.

 

China and Russia weren't / aren't dictatorships that kill thousands.

Yes they are or were. Are in the case of China, which literally murders thousands of Falun Gong to ensure a steady supply of organs for transplantation, and were (and arguably still are) in the case of post-Soviet Russia (see also, the Great Purges and Ukrainian famine, ethnic cleansing in the North Caucus, and the myriad of political opponents, dissidents and undesirables murdered by the state intelligence apparatus.

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Chiarii

War is not an inevitability, and negotiation can still work. It will take a climbdown on America's part, and a determined effort to rein in this President and his rhetoric, but looking at North Korea's history, behind their bluster they are receptive to diplomatic overtures.

Why? Why does the United States have to 'climb down' and 'rein in' the President? From where I'm sitting, in the real world, NK is the one who needs to back up and Un is the one who needs 'reining in'. What kind of opposite world fantasy are we living in where the larger, indisputably more powerful nation needs to bow and submit to the chihuahua of countries? There is simply no scenario in which the United States, regardless of who is President, rolls over for NK.

 

We are talking about an ostracized nation with maybe a dozen nukes and a very questionable ability to successfully land them going to war, alone, with the single most powerful country on earth. It is NK's responsibility to wake up, quickly.

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Typhus

 

War is not an inevitability, and negotiation can still work. It will take a climbdown on America's part, and a determined effort to rein in this President and his rhetoric, but looking at North Korea's history, behind their bluster they are receptive to diplomatic overtures.

Why? Why does the United States have to 'climb down' and 'rein in' the President? From where I'm sitting, in the real world, NK is the one who needs to back up and Un is the one who needs 'reining in'. What kind of opposite world fantasy are we living in where the larger, indisputably more powerful nation needs to bow and submit to the chihuahua of countries? There is simply no scenario in which the United States, regardless of who is President, rolls over for NK.

 

We are talking about an ostracized nation with maybe a dozen nukes and a very questionable ability to successfully land them going to war, alone, with the single most powerful country on earth. It is NK's responsibility to wake up, quickly.

Why do you equate moderation and negotiation to bowing and submitting?

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Chiarii

Mkay, why is the burden of 'moderation' not on Un's shoulders?

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