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theadmiral

General North Korea discussion

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universetwisters

Much like the US attacks various other nations for no f*cking reason.

 

I assume you think America is still lynching blacks aswell.

 

Give us one convincing argument as to why North Korea should have weapons of mass destruction.

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Uncle Sikee Atric

 

Much like the US attacks various other nations for no f*cking reason.

 

I assume you think America is still lynching blacks aswell.

 

Give us one convincing argument as to why North Korea should have weapons of mass destruction.

In reality, no nation should have nuclear weapons....

 

Even Robert Oppenheimer, the man who led the Los Alamos team, in his last TV interview, wished he had nothing to do with the creation of the bomb. I still see his depressed, disheveled face from my university lecture, he was suffering terminal cancer and was clearly broken following his accusations of being a Communist.

 

It was the first time he admitted his first reaction to the test firing at Los Alamos. The team were bunkered down, saw the flash and then the mushroom cloud. Oppenheimer simply turned to the rest of the team and said, "my friends, what have we done?"

 

That alone is what made my view on nuclear weapons. I would rather they didn't exist, instead they're a necessary evil.

 

Anyway, back OT : The DPRK are not going to stop because of general world feelings. South Korea has assurances of the US stockpile if the North attack, this development is purely mutual meeting of the tech, so they too have the same defence.

 

Whether China lets them have their weapons is another issue....

Edited by Sikee Atric

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sivispacem

Problem is you can't uninvent nuclear weapons. No-one who isn't insane supports unilateral disarmament so we're stuck with nuclear arsenals we're never actually going to use until such a time as disarmament by consensus takes place.

 

China wouldn't support the DPRK in any hot conflict. The costs for doing so would massively outweigh any benefit they would actually received. So far support for the North has been driven by a pragmatic desire to temper the influence of the US in the Sea of Japan (plus to a lesser extent the South China Sea) but we've already reached a point where doing so is actually more harmful to the stability and security of China, and their international reputation, than any benefit they receive. Hence the recent distancing of the current Chinese regime from that of the DPRK.

 

If anything the net result for China has been the exact opposite of their intended goal, which may also be a factor in their changing behaviour. The US deployment of anti-ballistic missile capability in the Sea of Japan and wider pacific as part of the multilateral defence against the DPRK massively hinders any Chinese long-range first strike capability against targets in the Pacific region and poses a less direct but still substantial threat to their continued illegal expansionism into the Nine-Dash Line region of the South China Sea should the continued war of words with their neighbours over the issue boil over into actual military action. All they've actually achieved is making the counterbalancing forces to their regional naval operations stronger.

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universetwisters

When I was a child, I wanted a computer. I begged and pleaded with my folks to let me had one and said everyone else had one, but they said that no 6 year old should have their own computer.

 

Replace "I" with North Korea, "computer" with nukes, "folks" with UN, and "no 6 year old should have their own computer" with "you are a tyrannical dictatorship run by a man with the social skills of a rock who hates everybody and we all wish you would evaporate".

 

Just because five (?) other countries have them, that doesn't mean NK should. So far, none of the two NK supporters in this thread can logically state as to why they should.

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sivispacem

China, US, France, UK, Russia, India, Pakistan, Israel and now DPRK.

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ShadowPerson

When I was a child, I wanted a computer. I begged and pleaded with my folks to let me had one and said everyone else had one, but they said that no 6 year old should have their own computer.

 

Replace "I" with North Korea, "computer" with nukes, "folks" with UN, and "no 6 year old should have their own computer" with "you are a tyrannical dictatorship run by a man with the social skills of a rock who hates everybody and we all wish you would evaporate".

 

Just because five (?) other countries have them, that doesn't mean NK should. So far, none of the two NK supporters in this thread can logically state as to why they should.

 

The problem is the goverment and "its leader" because that crazy bastard isnt the true supreme leader.

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Uncle Sikee Atric

Whatever happens, this issue isn't going away for the foreseeable future. The population believes in the leadership and their word is absolute. That is what happens after so long with no other voices to listen to.

 

The younger population are starting to see their country from the other side of the border, thanks to the Internet starting to leak in from the border regions. But that slow creep of new thoughts is going to take a generation to start influencing those who can make a difference.

 

The DPRK having nuclear weapons will not change the situation, this will only end when the general people of North Korea stop believing the leadership.

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SouthLand

Whatever happens, this issue isn't going away for the foreseeable future. The population believes in the leadership and their word is absolute. That is what happens after so long with no other voices to listen to.

 

The younger population are starting to see their country from the other side of the border, thanks to the Internet starting to leak in from the border regions. But that slow creep of new thoughts is going to take a generation to start influencing those who can make a difference.

 

The DPRK having nuclear weapons will not change the situation, this will only end when the general people of North Korea stop believing the leadership.

 

 

The world should be more concerned on the massive drug production North Korea has that is shipped not only to neighboring China but to other parts of the world. You can stop some who is involved in drug trafficking in Spain, You can arrest a Cartel leader in Mexico or Colombia... But who can stop a country that produces massive stockpiles of drugs?

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Fonz

Whatever happens, this issue isn't going away for the foreseeable future. The population believes in the leadership and their word is absolute. That is what happens after so long with no other voices to listen to.

It's not the Chubby Prince's little cult of personality keeping them subjugated, but the extreme militarism and statism. It's pretty much a fascist state by now.

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CBH

Just because five (?) other countries have them, that doesn't mean NK should. So far, none of the two NK supporters in this thread can logically state as to why they should.

Nobody will attack a country if they fear it will retaliate with nuclear weapons. The country they fear an attack from has attacked them in the past, and recently conquered several other non-nuclear states.

 

There you go, that's why they should have them. They don't have to ask for your permission.

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sivispacem

Thing is though, from the perspective of operational capability, the North isn't actually a nuclear state. They possess nuclear weapons but not the means of delivering them in a way that constitutes credible capability, so the question of whether their nuclear "deterrent" is actually capable of deterring anything is still pretty open.

 

Anyway, the DPRK only became a nuclear state in 2006 if you count their sub-KT fizzle and 2009 if you actually count demonstrated capabilities. My history might be a bit fuzzy, but I'm pretty sure the DPRK wasn't exposed to foreign military aggression from "the country" you allude to- presumably the US- at any point from the end of the Korean War until those dates. The incidents of direct aggression are pretty one-sided.

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CBH

If they can send something into space they can land it on your head.

 

As for not being attacked since the Korean war: it only takes being hit by a car once before you take helmets seriously. Until 1991 they were under soviet protection. Theoretically, they're under Chinese protection, but how good friends are they really? So the bomb is a sensible precaution.

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sivispacem

Well not quite. Putting a 100kg object into low earth orbit only really has relevance to nuclear deterrence if your warhead is of a comparable/equivalent mass, which most experts seem to agree the DPRKs are unlikely to be.

 

Remember, it took the entire might of the US military industrial complex thirteen years to reduce the size of nuclear warheads to such a point they could be placed on missiles. And those missiles had much, much bigger payloads (and were in turn much, much larger) than anything the DPRK possesses. Of course, they could try using one of their decrepit fleet of early 1950s Il-28 bombers instead of a missile, but I doubt they'd even be out of the DMZ before they were downed by South Korean SAMs.

 

Rather than the helmet analogy, I think the one about the rock that keeps away tigers is more apt. Given the fact that, if the US actually wanted to attack the DPRK, they could destroy the single large launch site most capable of providing the capacity to deliver nuclear weapons without Pyongyang even knowing they were under attack. That's why every nation with a credible nuclear deterrent these days has SLBMs.

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universetwisters

 

Just because five (?) other countries have them, that doesn't mean NK should. So far, none of the two NK supporters in this thread can logically state as to why they should.

Nobody will attack a country if they fear it will retaliate with nuclear weapons. The country they fear an attack from has attacked them in the past, and recently conquered several other non-nuclear states.

 

There you go, that's why they should have them. They don't have to ask for your permission.

 

 

But why would they attack North Korea in the first place? No country has plans or any interest in invading North Korea. What can you even get from North Korea? They barely have any resources or anything of value. If anything, the only worthwhile thing in North Korea are starving kids and sh*tty old Soviet locomotives from the 1960s that museums would kill (but not invade a country) for. You keep saying North Korea should have Nukes to protect themselves from countries like America, but with all the anti-American propoganda over there, NK seems to be playing the part of the schoolyard bully who provokes everything, rather than the shy kid who keeps getting bullied who tries to learn self defense you're trying to depict it as. Stop trying to say that NK needs to defend itself from enemies that aren't there, you're literally trying to give nukes to a country that kills it's own people.

 

While I'm in the mood, may I ask where you're from? You're defending NK an awful lot, and your flag would make me assume that you were sticking up for your own country, but then I remembered that only like 2 people have internet access over there, so I'm curious as to why someone from (what I assume to be) a fairly western country that NK doesn't like would even want them to have nuclear weapons in the first place.

Edited by universetwisters

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universetwisters

Sorry for the double post, but oh boy!

PYONGYANG, North Korea — An American student detained in North Korea for almost two months appeared on state television Monday where he appeared to apologize for attempting to steal a political banner as a souvenir.

Otto Warmbier, a 21-year-old University of Virginia undergraduate student, was shown bowing deeply and reading out a statement saying that he had committed an anti-state crime with "the tacit connivance of the U.S. government and under its manipulation."

In previous cases, people who have been detained in North Korea and given a public confession often recant those admissions after their release.

Warmbier, an Ohio native, was detained in January while visiting the country with Young Pioneer Tours, an agency specializing in travel to the North. Visiting North Korea is strongly discouraged by the State Department.

In his statement, Warmbier said he was offered a reward by a member of his church for taking the banner.

"I am begging to the Korean people and government for my forgiveness," his statement said.

North Korea regularly accuses Washington of sending spies to overthrow its government to enable the U.S.-backed South Korean government to control the Korean Peninsula.

Warmbier's family have not heard from him since his arrest, according to a statement provided to the Cavalier Daily, the University of Virginia's student-run newspaper.

"He seems to be in good health, although we won't know for sure about his condition until we have a chance to speak with him," the statement said.

 

Still waiting for CBH to poke his head in here too to answer my question too but oh well!

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Spaghetti Cat

Where's Dennis Rodman when you need him?

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G's Ah's

If they can send something into space they can land it on your head.

 

As for not being attacked since the Korean war: it only takes being hit by a car once before you take helmets seriously. Until 1991 they were under soviet protection. Theoretically, they're under Chinese protection, but how good friends are they really? So the bomb is a sensible precaution.

 

As sivispacem pointed out, there's a lot more to making a capable nuclear missile deterrent than simply sticking one on a glorified bottle rocket and firing it off in the rough direction of where you think the enemy is. It involves things like trajectories and making sure the warhead is delivered to the right target and not some random part of the Atlantic Ocean (or the Pacific given it's North Korea).

 

With regards to "not being attacked since the Korean War", this part is true, because both South Korea and the United States know very well all bets are off the table if they try and so much as even look like they're about to step one inch on the wrong side of the Demilitarized Zone. Don't forget that the biggest deterrent so far is not North Korea's nuclear weapons, but rather the fact that it has thousands of conventional artillery pieces located barely ten kilometres from Seoul and it could level the city, killing untold thousands of people, in a couple of hours. North Korea's current nuclear capabilities are such that if one was detonated in downtown Manhattan, the nuclear fallout wouldn't even reach Central Park. They're less powerful than the original bombs dropped on Hiroshima and Nagasaki.

 

Now, if we say that North Korea has attacked since the armistice was signed (because remember, North and South Korea as well as the United States never signed a peace treaty, only a treaty that stopped the actual fighting), then we have a number of incidents where North Korea has attacked South Korea. Over the last 20 years, there have been eight naval confrontations alone which has resulted in the damaging and sinking of a number of vessels, including the sinking of the ROKS Cheonan (which of course Pyongyang denies because who wants to be seen committing an act of war against another country allied with the United States). There have been raids on the presidential palace, terrorist attacks, the shelling of Yeonpyeong island in recent years as well as smaller things like the planting of booby traps and landmines on the DMZ to kill or maim South Korean soldiers. It's not as if the North Koreans are living in fear of attack by the United States as they seem quite happy to periodically shell South Korean territory or attempt to assassinate South Korean politicians.

 

Also, China's protection of North Korea is not really theoretical. For Beijing, North Korea is more or less a client state or a child that they have nominal control over. It's in the interests of the Chinese government to make sure that the regime in North Korea, be it the Kim dynasty or even a military junta, remains in place to subjugate the people. Why? Because if something were to happen, millions of very malnourished refugees would flood across the Yalu River into China. And given how wealthy states in Europe are failing to come to terms with a few thousand refugees, I can't imagine how China would deal with a few million.

 

From a rational standpoint, there's absolutely no reason why North Korea should have nuclear weapons. It's not a precaution and like many things regarding North Korea, it isn't sensible either, especially when it's the North Koreans committing acts of war against South Korea.

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universetwisters

He's just gonna ignore it too but yeah, seems about right.

 

 

I've literally never seen a single rational reason as to why NK needs nuclear weapons more than they need food so they can stop eating one another.

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Tchuck

I take it that whenever NK ups its level of saber-rattling that things aren't going well at home, probably missing most of those imports that now are being stopped by the sanctions, getting the people unhappy, or rather, those close to Kim unhappy, which means he has to demonstrate his power somehow to show them that he's fighting the good fight and all.

 

He may be a dictator and all, but he's not dumb enough to launch a nuke anywhere that would get him annihilated.

Edited by Tchuck

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G's Ah's

I take it that whenever NK ups its level of saber-rattling that things aren't going well at home, probably missing most of those imports that now are being stopped by the sanctions, getting the people unhappy, or rather, those close to Kim unhappy, which means he has to demonstrate his power somehow to show them that he's fighting the good fight and all.

 

He may be a dictator and all, but he's not dumb enough to launch a nuke anywhere that would get him annihilated.

 

Of course the North Korean government, and Kim Jong-un for that matter, is smart enough not to launch a nuclear strike, primarily because they don't have to. Their conventional weapons are more than enough to completely obliterate large parts of the South Korean capital without the need for low-yield nuclear weapons. Any North Korean attack on the South will be fought with conventional weapons.

 

The whole nuclear deal is the mentality within the North Korean government is that no nuclear-armed state has been attacked by the United States. They see what happened to Saddam Hussein and Muammar Ghaddafi and they know that a similar fate awaits them if they do anything. Not only this, but threats in the past have also been productive in receiving aid shipments from the West and from international organizations.

 

As for the need for Kim Jong-un to prove himself to the top brass, let's put it this way: all those generals he was walking with in his father's funeral procession through the streets of Pyongyang are all dead.

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Tchuck

 

I take it that whenever NK ups its level of saber-rattling that things aren't going well at home, probably missing most of those imports that now are being stopped by the sanctions, getting the people unhappy, or rather, those close to Kim unhappy, which means he has to demonstrate his power somehow to show them that he's fighting the good fight and all.

 

He may be a dictator and all, but he's not dumb enough to launch a nuke anywhere that would get him annihilated.

 

Of course the North Korean government, and Kim Jong-un for that matter, is smart enough not to launch a nuclear strike, primarily because they don't have to. Their conventional weapons are more than enough to completely obliterate large parts of the South Korean capital without the need for low-yield nuclear weapons. Any North Korean attack on the South will be fought with conventional weapons.

 

The whole nuclear deal is the mentality within the North Korean government is that no nuclear-armed state has been attacked by the United States. They see what happened to Saddam Hussein and Muammar Ghaddafi and they know that a similar fate awaits them if they do anything. Not only this, but threats in the past have also been productive in receiving aid shipments from the West and from international organizations.

 

As for the need for Kim Jong-un to prove himself to the top brass, let's put it this way: all those generals he was walking with in his father's funeral procession through the streets of Pyongyang are all dead.

 

 

That may be so, but he also knows that once the initial onslaught from the NK troops over the south is over, the retaliation will completely obliterate whatever's left of NK.

 

As for proving himself; as a dictator, you always have to be showing you are the boss, as there is always that sword hanging by a thread over your head. He is only one person after all, and you can bet there are people under him who would love to see him dead. Of course, when such people are found they are evidently murdered, but you can only murder so many people before things simply exploding. Showing people you have nukes and all helps mitigate that.

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G's Ah's

If you think that Kim Jong-un doesn't have the power over life and death of those around him, you are sadly mistaken. Just ask the families of those generals he had executed.

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Tchuck

Oh no, I don't think he doesn't. I'm just saying that it's a fine line to thread. If there were plots to execute Hitler, that were very nearly successful, you can bet there's plots out there against him as well.

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universetwisters

There actually was at one time, albeit with his father. He was riding a train through China or something like that and it passed a station. Maybe 10 minutes later, a bomb in a nearby wagon blows up that wipes out the track that he was once on.

 

Don't quote me on that though, it's been a while since I read it but I do know there was a plot to kill him involving trains blowing up.

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SouthLand

The whole nuclear thing is a political move. They want need more aid (Food, water...) and they are NOT going to ask them politely. That's all it is. North Korea is NOT going to attack any country with nuclear bombs, armed forces or any other sort of military. Why would they? They make billions of dollars every year producing and selling drugs and weapons.

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sivispacem

North Korea is NOT going to attack any country with...armed forces

So, all those times they've shelled islands belonging to the South, sunk their ships and conducted cross-border raids designed to kill their leadership never happened?

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G's Ah's

There actually was at one time, albeit with his father. He was riding a train through China or something like that and it passed a station. Maybe 10 minutes later, a bomb in a nearby wagon blows up that wipes out the track that he was once on.

 

Don't quote me on that though, it's been a while since I read it but I do know there was a plot to kill him involving trains blowing up.

 

Well there really isn't a lot known about Ryongchong or why it happened. An assassination attempt is as valid as negligence or an accident simply caused by North Korea's dilapidated railway network.

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universetwisters

It's still fun to imagine it was an assassination attempt.

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SouthLand

 

North Korea is NOT going to attack any country with...armed forces

So, all those times they've shelled islands belonging to the South, sunk their ships and conducted cross-border raids designed to kill their leadership never happened?

 

 

Of course it did, but lets be hon nest, those actions you mentioned are very sporadic and don't take place every month or even every year. You forgot to remember that when two countries are still at war, military actions take place sooner or later. And also, the SK ship that was sunk, was NK response to the conjoint military training between South Korean forces and the US.

 

What i am trying to point out here, is that North Korea is NOT going to initiate a full scale war on South Korea or Japan because they make more money by selling drugs and they know, that by starting a war, they are going to make as much money.

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