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theadmiral

General North Korea discussion

Recommended Posts

Typhus

Do you think Kim will indeed visit the White House? That would be a very great step forwards.

People complain about "legitimizing" his regime, but it is necessary to do so, so that the peace hoped for in these negotiations is not undone by some war hawk who could come after Trump. A normalized North Korea, whom can live peacefully with her neighbors and deal with America as an equal will be a much harder sell to invade and destroy - as many no doubt still wish.

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Svip

The problem is not 'legitimising' North Korea, the problem is not really getting anything in return for that.  North Korea agreed to nothing except hold further talks.  President Trump said he agreed to stopping the war games, while North Korea claims he also agreed to lifting sanctions, which Trump denies.

 

The ending of the war games is a huge concession on the US part, whereas they got virtually nothing for it.  It's fair enough that a declaration of intent is mostly empty on details, and mostly I'd expected it mostly to be an agreement that there will be further meetings, which it seems mostly it was.  But the war games ending?  Woah, that was a bit out of the blue.

 

Hopefully it leads to something.  Kim visiting Washington, or Trump visiting Pyongyang would be significant positive steps towards real peace.  I hope it leads there.  But so far, it isn't clear whether this is Trump's 'deal-making skills', or whether this is actually what North Korea wants.

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Recommended
5 hours ago, Tchuck said:

if you're just going to spew bullsh*t that North Korea is hell and evil

I don't usually bother with debates these days as they don't normally get anywhere, and people are on auto-ego and thus minds are already set from the start, plus I don't get into politics anymore, but if I may repond to the idea of NK being evil and sh*t.

 

This is something I've been hearing for years. The idea that North Korea is hell on Earth and is run by a tyrant. Personally I've always been one of the few that has never judged a place I haven't even seen with my own eyes. I do think it's bullsh*t how so many jump on the bandwagon and are quick to claim North Korea as being hell and how evil Kim is.

 

Now sure, maybe it is a bad place, and maybe he is a tyrant, but that's only a maybe. From what I could make out while hearing about all the missile tests they've done, it sounded more like a country that was looking for ways to defend itself rather than preparing for an attack.

 

I get the strong vibe that it's a country that wants to become fully independant and carry it's own weight.

 

I was in a Discord server about half a year ago and ran into a user that was going on about how bad NK was, and of course I couldn't help but jump in and ask why he thought that, and the guy/girl got all defensive and I was called every name under the sun. I find this to be a dangerous and non-productive mentally, because there are so many that are like that.

 

I personally say don't be so hasty to judge.

 

Kim has put the effort into meeting Trump by the looks of it, so the guy is not totally unreasonable like most would claim.

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Darth Yokel
49 minutes ago, Recommended said:

Now sure, maybe it is a bad place, and maybe he is a tyrant, but that's only a maybe.

Oh Jesus f*ckin' Christ. I can't believe that this is what the debate's been reduced to.

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Tchuck
8 hours ago, Svip said:

The ending of the war games is a huge concession on the US part, whereas they got virtually nothing for it.  It's fair enough that a declaration of intent is mostly empty on details, and mostly I'd expected it mostly to be an agreement that there will be further meetings, which it seems mostly it was.  But the war games ending?  Woah, that was a bit out of the blue.

But is it really a huge concession? North Korea has already stopped their missile exercises, which were pretty much the counterpoint to the military exercises. Those military exercises only had one purpose: a flexing of muscles with the intention of bullying North Korea and threatening them, exactly the same purpose of the missile tests that North Korea conducted. America, and South Korea, already gained a lot by the change in posture from the North Korean regime since this year began. End to the tests, deactivation of nuclear sites, meetings and cooperation, joint efforts. It was high time for America to give something back, and they did.

 

Russia, China, South Korea, are all praising the move to end the exercises. It was a major block in proceeding with further peace talks because, how could North Korea proceed with peace when the other side was actively preparing for war? 

 

This meeting was sort of an olive branch. America is showing that it can cooperate without making stupid demands, and the path is being set for more meetings and more treaties.

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Svip

Yeah, except that's a bit of a naïve take on it.  I'm sorry for being a bit of a cynic here, but so far it's only President Trump saying they will stop the military exercises.  South Korea and the Pentagon say they have not received word to stop them, and are going ahead with their Autumn exercises as planned, until they get official word.  Trump's announcement came as quite a shock to South Korea.  I have not seen sources that they are praising the move, but even if they agree with the decision, I am sure they would have liked some heads up that that might be on the table.

 

You know who is not praising it?  Republicans in Congress.  And while we often think of them as incapable of changing Trump's mind, they have quite often changed his decisions on certain issues, and they may be able to reverse his decision for him.

 

Furthermore, North Korea has only destroyed its nuclear testing site.  It still has its nuclear warheads, and its missile testing site.  In North Korea's eyes, they don't need more testing, because their missiles are now good enough.  Saying they were a counterpoint to the military exercises is also a simplification of the truth.  The missile and nuclear development in North Korea was a way for them to buy insurance for their own independence.  And furthermore, under Kim Jong-Un, to force the United States to the table, where North Korea would have better cards on their hand than they did during the six party talks ten years ago.  Indeed, that's probably why they backed out back then, because they realised they didn't have enough to bargain with; and now they do.

 

North Korea also apparently got the impression that the sanctions would be lifted soon, although Trump and Pompeo denies this, and it will only happen after complete denuclearisation, which the US expects to be done around November-December 2020.  Although, the US is incredibly light on details as to how they will verify this.  And I can definitely see Trump over-promising during the meeting, and then being reigned in after the fact.

 

So imagine that if the military exercises do actually happen in Autumn?  That isn't exactly going to please the North Koreans.  Particularly, if they had been playing nice up until then.

 

In short, it's a big concession - if true - because the US got little in return.  The nuclear test site had already been destroyed by an earthquake, the missile tests were done, so no further testing needed, so I'd hardly call those two concessions on North Korea's part.  Although, they are playing it as if it is.  But it's also a dangerous move, if it's not true.  It will be difficult for the US to go back on that promise now, even though they don't have it in writing.

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Tchuck

Of course, taking Trump's word for anything is a fools errand as that man is more likely to go back on his word than any other president.  It'll hinge on whether he'll stick with it and actually go forth and cancel the exercises. If he does, great. If he doesn't, then he'll make North Korea look better as he'll be the one breaking the deal.

 

But I still dispute it was a huge concession, and a selling out of America as some liberal news agencies are calling it. It was pretty much the minimum he could have done in order to begin forging a peace agreement. How can America demand a nation destroy its one guaranteed protection against an attack, while practicing attacks against said nation? 

 

I had no big hopes for this meeting, was expecting it to be more of a gathering and smoothing relations, so for Trump to go and decide to cancel the war games altogether was a great outcome, that makes the US look more trustworthy and willing to look for peace, instead of huge hypocrites.

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Darth Yokel
4 hours ago, Svip said:

You know who is not praising it?  Republicans in Congress.  And while we often think of them as incapable of changing Trump's mind, they have quite often changed his decisions on certain issues, and they may be able to reverse his decision for him.

It seems like they're going to take steps to address that. They're also working on blocking his ZTE deal through a defense bill. They don't seem too happy with his recent behavior.

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Tchuck

Meh, I take it with a pinch of salt.

Specially this bit:

Quote

While the North Koreans have stopped missile and nuclear tests, "there's no evidence that they are decreasing stockpiles, or that they have stopped their production," said one U.S. official briefed on the latest intelligence. "There is absolutely unequivocal evidence that they are trying to deceive the U.S."

So there's no evidence of them decreasing, but there's also no evidence that they are actively increasing the stockpile and continuing production. And to go and say "there is absolutely unequivocal evidence that they are trying to deceive the U.S." without really going into detail or even briefly mentioning what sort of evidence it is.

 

This sounds like someone wanting to start sh*t over here again. Or finding another reason to call Trump an incompetent buffoon. 

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G's Ah's

To be frank, North Korea already has what it needs: nuclear weapons that work and the capabilities to deliver them. It doesn't need to do more testing, all it needs to do is keep building warheads and missiles. 

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Short Stay

North Korea's only doing the smart thing, building up stocks of what it needs in the short term before any (presumed) long term negotiations start.

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Tchuck

And look at that, North Korea is continuing to comply and follow through on its promises:

 

Quote

WASHINGTON (Reuters) - Satellite images indicate North Korea has begun dismantling key facilities at a site used to develop engines for ballistic missiles, a first step toward fulfilling a pledge made to U.S. President Donald Trump, a Washington-based think tank said on Monday.

 

I wonder how the media will spin this as Trump being played.

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G's Ah's

To be frank, it has enough of a deterrent already and likely has the backing of Beijing as well. So perhaps this was a way for the Kim regime to legitimise it's nuclear draw down. 

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Tchuck

Or maybe, just maybe, he's not the child-eating monster that the American-influenced media has made him out to be, and is genuinely interested in peace. I get that peace is such a foreign concept to a nation like America who has been living in a state of perpetual war since shortly after its independence.

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Darth Yokel
4 hours ago, Tchuck said:

and is genuinely interested in peace.

A man who at a flip of a switch threatens countries with fire and fury, annihilation and consequences unlike anything that history has ever known can hardly be called peace-loving.

 

And North Koreans are still con artists. And they're better at it than Trump is. I understand your desire for NK to change, I think everyone on this forum shares it, but realistically it's just not that likely.

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Tchuck
41 minutes ago, Darth Yokel said:

A man who at a flip of a switch threatens countries with fire and fury, annihilation and consequences unlike anything that history has ever known can hardly be called peace-loving.

You're talking about Trump, right?

Because if you look at Kim's history, all his "fire and brimstone threats" came mostly as a direct response form being threatened by the imperialists. What was he supposed to do? Roll over?

 

42 minutes ago, Darth Yokel said:

And North Koreans are still con artists. And they're better at it than Trump is. I understand your desire for NK to change, I think everyone on this forum shares it, but realistically it's just not that likely.

Why is it unlikely? Seriously, what would they have to do to make you think they want to change? They've done the summits, they've relaxed tensions towards South Korea, including an unprecedented meeting with their leader, and an even more unprecedented meeting with the acting president of the US, they've begun dismantling their facilities, they've stopped complaining about American and Korean military exercises, they've stopped all their missile exercises... What else do you want? For them to livestream the destruction of their nukes? For Kim to surrender to South Korea and accept prison for his "crimes against humanity"? 

 

And you should get a tad more informed in the history of the two Koreas. This is the first South Korean president in decades to be actively friendly to the North. In most of South Korea's history, their dictators (yes, they had those, some as "bloody" as the Kims) and later presidents were mostly US puppets put in place to protect the interests of the Americans, without any interest in reunification or peace. 

 

And if you evaluate Kim's behavior, you'll see he has been one of the most rational/consistent heads of state in recent times. I get that you guys in the west get fed propaganda about North Korea out to destroy the world, burn your women and rape your churches. But if you actually looked at the issue from the point of view of North Korea, and the history of America around the world when they decide someone is an enemy, you'd understand why they needed to be more brash at times, and pursue their nukes.

 

But honestly, why is it unlikely?

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Darth Yokel

This is not their first time to pretend like they're changing and giving up on their nuclear program. It's been their playbook since the 80's.

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Tchuck

Actually, certain measures they've taken this time around are mostly a first. Specially sticking with it for quite a long time now. It's been nearly a year since their last missile test, they've extended a hand to North Korea, began negotiations with China, with South Korea, with America. They've even frigging met with the president of the United States, a first in history. Ditto with the current frequent meetings with Pompeo and whatnot. Kim Yo-Jong's visit to the South during the olympics also marked the first time any member of the Kim family ever set foot in the South since the war. And one of the first times they've actually and provably deactivated facilities, as demanded on peace treaties.

 

And yeah, they'v gone back on their promises on several occasions. You know who else did? The US. The US "playbook" is also to make promises and walk away from it. 

 

I don't get it. You guys claim you want peace, North Korea takes steps towards peace, and you criticize it and call it as bullsh*t, moving the goalposts as to what constitutes steps towards peace.

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Svip

'You guys'?  Given North Korea's track record, I think it is reasonable to be cautious and sceptical about their intentions.  Besides, any state acts within its own narrow interests.  Sometimes, those interests and peace align.  See most countries.

 

I am pleased to see the steps North Korea has taken so far, but neither do I want to be caught with my trousers down.  North Korea has a trust problem internationally, and while it definitely seems like they are approaching it with several steps and concessions, it could also be an attempt at luring us into a false sense of security.

 

This is a classic scenario of 'hope for the best, plan for the worst'.  I hope peace talks continue with North Korea, and they yield something.  Indeed, considering the reforms Kim Jong-Un seems to be pursuing within North Korea, he is opening up to a far more open market economy than the teachings of Juche would allow, it seems likely that he is actually interested in a more open North Korea.

 

I could go further and suggest that Kim views peace and negotiations as a better security for his regime than nuclear weapons.  Suppose North Korea attained an economy far more interconnected with its neighbouring economies, then the idea of attacking North Korea would seem far less likely, and unification less so.  North Korea is probably looking at what China is doing, and seeing that you maintain a authoritarian regime with the benefits of open markets, and saying, 'we want some of that'.

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Tchuck
2 hours ago, Svip said:

North Korea has a trust problem internationally, and while it definitely seems like they are approaching it with several steps and concessions, it could also be an attempt at luring us into a false sense of security.

And then what? Throw a nuke at America? Invade South Korea? I just find the notion that they'd be fooling us all offering peace and then backstabing us by attacking neighbouring countries or something of the sort, to be pretty stupid, and influenced by the good old "axis of evil" that America has always tried to push forward. In today's world, it would be nearly impossible to get a sneak attack done like that, specially with nukes. And in North Korea's case, the retaliation would be swift and they would be wiped off the face of the planet. They may wish to destroy the world (they don't), but they also value their lives a tad more than that. They aren't suicidal.

 

So far, they've been doing exactly what's been asked, and been consistent with it for the past 8 months or so. There's been no indications that this is a sneak attack in the making.

 

I do agree with your assertion that he's been pushing for more openness and trade to secure their protection from the imperialists. A North Korea that actively trades and has relations with its neighbours is a North Korea that won't be attacked by America. Unification is gaining more and more support in both countries as well, so it's becoming more of a reality in the future.

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Svip

Then what?  Then nothing.  Just a return to the status quo, and it's going to be disappointing.  But definitely, there is more for North Korea to gain than for the US.  Indeed, I am more worried about the United States than North Korea in these dealings.

 

But we can't forget the horrors that North Korea has perpetrated.  We cannot just give regimes like this a carte blanche to do what they want to their peoples, and then turn around and all is forgotten, when they want peaceful relations.  That would be a dangerous precedence.

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Crokey

I agree that with North Korea's past it would be very wise to be cautious; however, I do think that this time there may be a little more sincerity about it, given how the world has moved on since the last time this was attempted.  Mainly due to North Korea's ties with China, who have edged and are edging more and more towards a consumerist society with some signs of "democracy", in the loosest sense of the word.  As China is growing at the rate it is, and since NK seems more open to Chinese influence, it would not be surprising to believe that they are feeling like they are being left behind in the world, so are taking these steps towards opening up a little more.

 

Which when you go back a bit, China is like the way it is as Britain gave back Hong Kong and China went "what the eff, this is what the worlds been doing, I want some of that".  So if NK does open up, it won't be because of Trump, raise a cup of tea to Blighty.

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Tchuck
10 hours ago, Svip said:

But we can't forget the horrors that North Korea has perpetrated.  We cannot just give regimes like this a carte blanche to do what they want to their peoples, and then turn around and all is forgotten, when they want peaceful relations.  That would be a dangerous precedence.

But the west does tend to forget the horrors of select nations, and rugsweep them when it's convenient. The west has given regimes like that carte blanche to do what they want to their peoples, and turn around and all is forgotten and peaceful relations will be set. This precedence has already been set. (see: Israel, Saudi Arabia, Brazil, Chile, Indonesia etc).

 

Not to mention that the world has forgotten the horrors that western world nations have caused. The dozen famines in India at the hands of the Brits, the genocide of the Congolese under auspices of the Belgian king, and so on.

 

If you don't extend an olive branch towards North Korea, how do you expect them to change? 

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G's Ah's
On 7/25/2018 at 3:21 PM, Tchuck said:

Or maybe, just maybe, he's not the child-eating monster that the American-influenced media has made him out to be, and is genuinely interested in peace. I get that peace is such a foreign concept to a nation like America who has been living in a state of perpetual war since shortly after its independence.

I don't believe Western media portrays Kim Jong-un as a child eating monster, they are reflecting on his ruthlessness. Which, to those with some knowledge of North Korea, is pretty reasonable given he did inherit a regime that is among the most oppressive and cruel in modern history, not to mention he had to cement his own grip on power by engaging in even more authoritarianism. We can't actually comment on his intentions, given that we know very little about North Korea. Don't forget that before and during the series of meetings where a peace plan was promised, Kim visited Beijing twice and spoke with Xi Jinping. No one other than the two of them know what was discussed. 

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Tchuck

Kim Jong-Un is a far cry from the brutal and oppressive dictator that his father was, though (although the media would try to have you believe otherwise, with reports of him killing his uncle with an AA gun, assassinating an ex, and lashing and beating an entire football team for underperforming abroad. All of which was then shown to be false). And the media has been portraying North Korea through a western lens, pointing them as an evil in the world, and you can even see the results of that on this very thread, with people calling him a madman hellbent on destroying our way of life, others saying that North Korea has no right to exist as a state, others hoping for North Korea to be nuked by the Americans to rid the world of this evil etc.

 

Which for me is highly hypocritical because the same media that condemned everything that North Korea does, is the same media that didn't give a damn about what their allies were doing elsewhere in the globe. It's even discounting any approach towards peace that he does because he's evil and obviously he must have secret intentions to unleash hell when we are unready, when nothing he's done so far indicates that he's preparing for anything else to happen. He's been doing exactly what has been requested of him by America and its allies. Slowly dismantling their facilities, putting an end to tests, approaching South Korea and whatnot.

 

I get that people are suspected because historically NK has gone back on promises in the past (sometimes because the Americans gone back first, sometimes they were the first to do so). But they've been showing month after month progress in negotiations and commitment to get the situation solved. Yet people still think they're up to something, but up to what? 

 

Him getting closer to China only further cements the possibility of peace and this being real conversation, specially visiting it so openly, where in the past it was all done hush hush. China is the one party who really doesn't want a war on its doorstep, and would prefer to see the countries in the region to have better relations so they can better take on the US in trade disputes and hopefully replace it as the main influence in the region. Anything that reduces the influence of America in a region, leaving power to the locals, is a positive move in my opinion.

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SouthLand
8 hours ago, Tchuck said:

Kim Jong-Un is a far cry from the brutal and oppressive dictator that his father was, though (although the media would try to have you believe otherwise, with reports of him killing his uncle with an AA gun, assassinating an ex, and lashing and beating an entire football team for underperforming abroad. All of which was then shown to be false). And the media has been portraying North Korea through a western lens, pointing them as an evil in the world, and you can even see the results of that on this very thread, with people calling him a madman hellbent on destroying our way of life, others saying that North Korea has no right to exist as a state, others hoping for North Korea to be nuked by the Americans to rid the world of this evil etc.

 

Which for me is highly hypocritical because the same media that condemned everything that North Korea does, is the same media that didn't give a damn about what their allies were doing elsewhere in the globe. It's even discounting any approach towards peace that he does because he's evil and obviously he must have secret intentions to unleash hell when we are unready, when nothing he's done so far indicates that he's preparing for anything else to happen. He's been doing exactly what has been requested of him by America and its allies. Slowly dismantling their facilities, putting an end to tests, approaching South Korea and whatnot.

 

I get that people are suspected because historically NK has gone back on promises in the past (sometimes because the Americans gone back first, sometimes they were the first to do so). But they've been showing month after month progress in negotiations and commitment to get the situation solved. Yet people still think they're up to something, but up to what? 

 

Him getting closer to China only further cements the possibility of peace and this being real conversation, specially visiting it so openly, where in the past it was all done hush hush. China is the one party who really doesn't want a war on its doorstep, and would prefer to see the countries in the region to have better relations so they can better take on the US in trade disputes and hopefully replace it as the main influence in the region. Anything that reduces the influence of America in a region, leaving power to the locals, is a positive move in my opinion.

 

 

I agree. 

I think the DPRK will eventually turn it's regime into something similar to what China has. 

 

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G's Ah's
19 hours ago, Tchuck said:

Kim Jong-Un is a far cry from the brutal and oppressive dictator that his father was

He hasn't been in power for very long, so we can't really assume one way or the other. He became supreme leader in 2011, which admittedly is seven years, but that's not a long time in North Korean politics. 

 

Quote

And the media has been portraying North Korea through a western lens, pointing them as an evil in the world, and you can even see the results of that on this very thread, with people calling him a madman hellbent on destroying our way of life, others saying that North Korea has no right to exist as a state, others hoping for North Korea to be nuked by the Americans to rid the world of this evil etc.

It's not that far from the truth. North Korea is one of the most brutally oppressive regimes that currently exist, and it's crimes are up there with the most horrific of the regimes that have existed within the past century. The accounts from survivors of North Korea's prison camp system have revealed some of the horrors that the regime perpetrates. Suggesting that this is nothing more than Western propaganda is essentially trying to whitewash that fact. As for Kim Jong-un being a madman, again, that's how North Korea operates and has done for over two decades. Convincing the West that the regime is unpredictable and that it's capable of doing anything is part of how it convinces countries like the United States to take it seriously. The North Korean government wants people to believe the country is run by mentally unstable lunatics because that's how you command fear and respect, and that in doing so, get the masses in the West to pressure their governments into doing what North Korea wants. Similar to a crazy man in a restaurant with a shotgun: you don't dismiss him, you take him seriously. 

 

Quote

Which for me is highly hypocritical because the same media that condemned everything that North Korea does, is the same media that didn't give a damn about what their allies were doing elsewhere in the globe.

It is hypocritical, but at the same time, it's not hypocritical. While Western media should be leveling more accountability of its own governments, that does not justify the horrors being perpetrated in North Korea. 

 

Quote

It's even discounting any approach towards peace that he does because he's evil and obviously he must have secret intentions to unleash hell when we are unready, when nothing he's done so far indicates that he's preparing for anything else to happen.

Again, that goes back to Pyongyang's narrative that North Korea is run by lunatics. That's one of the consequences of perpetuating this believe in that we have to react cautiously and keep all options open, because we can't predict what the North Koreans will do. 

 

Quote

Him getting closer to China only further cements the possibility of peace and this being real conversation, specially visiting it so openly, where in the past it was all done hush hush.

No one knows what he discussed with Xi Jinping. It's still a mystery to most people. 

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Tchuck
49 minutes ago, G's Ah's said:

It's not that far from the truth.

It's incredibly far from the truth.

 

49 minutes ago, G's Ah's said:

and it's crimes are up there with the most horrific of the regimes that have existed within the past century.

Really? Care to point to something as horrific as the Belgian genocide perpetrated in the Congo that they've done? Something as horrific as the famines that caused dozens of millions of deaths that the British let happen and did nothing to help? Something as horrific as the open air prison that Israel turned Palestine into? Something as horrific as the holocaust perpetrated by the Nazis? Something as horrific as the invasions done by America, masked under the pretense of "bringing democracy", around the globe that generated so much misery and disaster, leading directly and indirectly to millions of lives lost and countries that will take decades to recover if ever? And you say they are right up there with those guys for keeping people in internment camps? Right-o.

 

49 minutes ago, G's Ah's said:

The accounts from survivors of North Korea's prison camp system have revealed some of the horrors that the regime perpetrates.

Take it with a grain of salt. The last "survivor" that managed to escape from North Korea, you remember the one running across the border, being shot at, rescued and hailed a hero for escaping and whatnot? The one that later revelaed to be lying about his conditions and his treatment and revealed he was actually sentenced for murder and whatnot? 

 

And take it at face value, what do you say then of the accounts from survivors of Guantanamo? Of the mass incarceration perpetrated by America against people of color, the conditions in those prisons? Are you also going to call out America's horrors? Or find some way to justify it? Hypocrisy at its finest.

 

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As for Kim Jong-un being a madman, again, that's how North Korea operates and has done for over two decades. Convincing the West that the regime is unpredictable and that it's capable of doing anything is part of how it convinces countries like the United States to take it seriously. The North Korean government wants people to believe the country is run by mentally unstable lunatics because that's how you command fear and respect, and that in doing so, get the masses in the West to pressure their governments into doing what North Korea wants. Similar to a crazy man in a restaurant with a shotgun: you don't dismiss him, you take him seriously. 

Uh, Kim hasn't operated as a madman. At all. He has been completely rational in all his dealings with the west. They haven't worked to convince the west that their regime is unpredictable: they've been crystal clear from the start that they were building nukes so they could protect themselves against the imperialists. The North Korean government hasn't at all tried to get people to believe Kim is a mentally unstable lunatic, because that's how you get assassinated. sh*t, are you even following anything that the North Korean government has said over the past 10 years?

 

49 minutes ago, G's Ah's said:

It is hypocritical, but at the same time, it's not hypocritical.

It IS hypocritical. And it's not an attempt to justify North Korea's "horrors"; it's simply pointing out the fact that the media will excuse horrendous behavior (See Israel, Saudi Arabia) when it favors them, and will pile on any nation that doesn't toe the line.

 

49 minutes ago, G's Ah's said:

Again, that goes back to Pyongyang's narrative that North Korea is run by lunatics.

Which is not a narrative that North Korea has ever tried to perpetrate, at the very least not with Kim Jong-Un. Seriously, you are rejecting reality at this point. You ask any person acquainted with security analysis, and they'll tell you North Korea has been anything but "ran by a lunatic". They've been aggressive, but they've been extremely consistent and rational.

 

49 minutes ago, G's Ah's said:

No one knows what he discussed with Xi Jinping. It's still a mystery to most people. 

Obviously he was discussing plans to nuke America after their sign the peace treaty because they are so zany and lunatic! :sarcasm:

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G's Ah's
2 hours ago, Tchuck said:

It's incredibly far from the truth.

How? 

 

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Really? Care to point to something as horrific as the Belgian genocide perpetrated in the Congo that they've done?

North Korea didn't exist at the time the Congo Free State did. The two aren't comparable. But if you want accounts of North Koreans in prison camps, here's a good account from someone who experienced life in Yodok Prison Camp. Here's another account from the same camp. The fact that you seem to be under the impression that North Korea's horrific human rights record is nothing more than Western propaganda is quite incredulous. 

 

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And you say they are right up there with those guys for keeping people in internment camps? Right-o.

It's worse. 

 

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Take it with a grain of salt.

And yet we should believe a word the North Koreans say, or what you say, for that matter? 

 

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Uh, Kim hasn't operated as a madman. At all.

The regime still operates on a pretense of being unpredictable. 

 

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Which is not a narrative that North Korea has ever tried to perpetrate

Yes it is. That is literally how they managed to get away with developing nuclear weapons and why they kept making threats. 

 

I don't really have any interest in addressing the rest of your post, because it's already stuff I've already said and have no point in repeating. You're essentially wrong on every single claim you have made and there's no point in trying to convince you otherwise.

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