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theadmiral

General North Korea discussion

Recommended Posts

Typhus

Do you think Kim will indeed visit the White House? That would be a very great step forwards.

People complain about "legitimizing" his regime, but it is necessary to do so, so that the peace hoped for in these negotiations is not undone by some war hawk who could come after Trump. A normalized North Korea, whom can live peacefully with her neighbors and deal with America as an equal will be a much harder sell to invade and destroy - as many no doubt still wish.

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Svip

The problem is not 'legitimising' North Korea, the problem is not really getting anything in return for that.  North Korea agreed to nothing except hold further talks.  President Trump said he agreed to stopping the war games, while North Korea claims he also agreed to lifting sanctions, which Trump denies.

 

The ending of the war games is a huge concession on the US part, whereas they got virtually nothing for it.  It's fair enough that a declaration of intent is mostly empty on details, and mostly I'd expected it mostly to be an agreement that there will be further meetings, which it seems mostly it was.  But the war games ending?  Woah, that was a bit out of the blue.

 

Hopefully it leads to something.  Kim visiting Washington, or Trump visiting Pyongyang would be significant positive steps towards real peace.  I hope it leads there.  But so far, it isn't clear whether this is Trump's 'deal-making skills', or whether this is actually what North Korea wants.

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Recommended
5 hours ago, Tchuck said:

if you're just going to spew bullsh*t that North Korea is hell and evil

I don't usually bother with debates these days as they don't normally get anywhere, and people are on auto-ego and thus minds are already set from the start, plus I don't get into politics anymore, but if I may repond to the idea of NK being evil and sh*t.

 

This is something I've been hearing for years. The idea that North Korea is hell on Earth and is run by a tyrant. Personally I've always been one of the few that has never judged a place I haven't even seen with my own eyes. I do think it's bullsh*t how so many jump on the bandwagon and are quick to claim North Korea as being hell and how evil Kim is.

 

Now sure, maybe it is a bad place, and maybe he is a tyrant, but that's only a maybe. From what I could make out while hearing about all the missile tests they've done, it sounded more like a country that was looking for ways to defend itself rather than preparing for an attack.

 

I get the strong vibe that it's a country that wants to become fully independant and carry it's own weight.

 

I was in a Discord server about half a year ago and ran into a user that was going on about how bad NK was, and of course I couldn't help but jump in and ask why he thought that, and the guy/girl got all defensive and I was called every name under the sun. I find this to be a dangerous and non-productive mentally, because there are so many that are like that.

 

I personally say don't be so hasty to judge.

 

Kim has put the effort into meeting Trump by the looks of it, so the guy is not totally unreasonable like most would claim.

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Darth Yokel
49 minutes ago, Recommended said:

Now sure, maybe it is a bad place, and maybe he is a tyrant, but that's only a maybe.

Oh Jesus f*ckin' Christ. I can't believe that this is what the debate's been reduced to.

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Tchuck
8 hours ago, Svip said:

The ending of the war games is a huge concession on the US part, whereas they got virtually nothing for it.  It's fair enough that a declaration of intent is mostly empty on details, and mostly I'd expected it mostly to be an agreement that there will be further meetings, which it seems mostly it was.  But the war games ending?  Woah, that was a bit out of the blue.

But is it really a huge concession? North Korea has already stopped their missile exercises, which were pretty much the counterpoint to the military exercises. Those military exercises only had one purpose: a flexing of muscles with the intention of bullying North Korea and threatening them, exactly the same purpose of the missile tests that North Korea conducted. America, and South Korea, already gained a lot by the change in posture from the North Korean regime since this year began. End to the tests, deactivation of nuclear sites, meetings and cooperation, joint efforts. It was high time for America to give something back, and they did.

 

Russia, China, South Korea, are all praising the move to end the exercises. It was a major block in proceeding with further peace talks because, how could North Korea proceed with peace when the other side was actively preparing for war? 

 

This meeting was sort of an olive branch. America is showing that it can cooperate without making stupid demands, and the path is being set for more meetings and more treaties.

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Svip

Yeah, except that's a bit of a naïve take on it.  I'm sorry for being a bit of a cynic here, but so far it's only President Trump saying they will stop the military exercises.  South Korea and the Pentagon say they have not received word to stop them, and are going ahead with their Autumn exercises as planned, until they get official word.  Trump's announcement came as quite a shock to South Korea.  I have not seen sources that they are praising the move, but even if they agree with the decision, I am sure they would have liked some heads up that that might be on the table.

 

You know who is not praising it?  Republicans in Congress.  And while we often think of them as incapable of changing Trump's mind, they have quite often changed his decisions on certain issues, and they may be able to reverse his decision for him.

 

Furthermore, North Korea has only destroyed its nuclear testing site.  It still has its nuclear warheads, and its missile testing site.  In North Korea's eyes, they don't need more testing, because their missiles are now good enough.  Saying they were a counterpoint to the military exercises is also a simplification of the truth.  The missile and nuclear development in North Korea was a way for them to buy insurance for their own independence.  And furthermore, under Kim Jong-Un, to force the United States to the table, where North Korea would have better cards on their hand than they did during the six party talks ten years ago.  Indeed, that's probably why they backed out back then, because they realised they didn't have enough to bargain with; and now they do.

 

North Korea also apparently got the impression that the sanctions would be lifted soon, although Trump and Pompeo denies this, and it will only happen after complete denuclearisation, which the US expects to be done around November-December 2020.  Although, the US is incredibly light on details as to how they will verify this.  And I can definitely see Trump over-promising during the meeting, and then being reigned in after the fact.

 

So imagine that if the military exercises do actually happen in Autumn?  That isn't exactly going to please the North Koreans.  Particularly, if they had been playing nice up until then.

 

In short, it's a big concession - if true - because the US got little in return.  The nuclear test site had already been destroyed by an earthquake, the missile tests were done, so no further testing needed, so I'd hardly call those two concessions on North Korea's part.  Although, they are playing it as if it is.  But it's also a dangerous move, if it's not true.  It will be difficult for the US to go back on that promise now, even though they don't have it in writing.

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Tchuck

Of course, taking Trump's word for anything is a fools errand as that man is more likely to go back on his word than any other president.  It'll hinge on whether he'll stick with it and actually go forth and cancel the exercises. If he does, great. If he doesn't, then he'll make North Korea look better as he'll be the one breaking the deal.

 

But I still dispute it was a huge concession, and a selling out of America as some liberal news agencies are calling it. It was pretty much the minimum he could have done in order to begin forging a peace agreement. How can America demand a nation destroy its one guaranteed protection against an attack, while practicing attacks against said nation? 

 

I had no big hopes for this meeting, was expecting it to be more of a gathering and smoothing relations, so for Trump to go and decide to cancel the war games altogether was a great outcome, that makes the US look more trustworthy and willing to look for peace, instead of huge hypocrites.

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Darth Yokel
4 hours ago, Svip said:

You know who is not praising it?  Republicans in Congress.  And while we often think of them as incapable of changing Trump's mind, they have quite often changed his decisions on certain issues, and they may be able to reverse his decision for him.

It seems like they're going to take steps to address that. They're also working on blocking his ZTE deal through a defense bill. They don't seem too happy with his recent behavior.

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