Der_Don Posted July 11, 2014 Share Posted July 11, 2014 Jimbatron, I see the Union Jack under your avatar. Are you from England? That would explain alot... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jimbatron Posted July 11, 2014 Share Posted July 11, 2014 (edited) Jimbatron, I see the Union Jack under your avatar. Are you from England? That would explain alot... Hmm, yes, I thought someone would bring up the "you are English, so you must hate the Germans". Since it's back on the previous page, I'll re-quote what I said earlier and draw your attention to the bottom bit in particular. Germany and the Germans have much to recommend themselves. When I've been there everyone is very polite, and helpful, and they speak excellent English when they realise I'm struggling with my very wonky attempts at German. I love the Autobahn network, and the big Steins of lager (not at the same time obviously). I'm afraid it doesn't change my analysis of their current football team. Germany played such effective, simple and beautiful football Simple and effective yes. Beautiful, no. Beautiful is Rodriguez's volley or Van Persie's header. German movement and passing is pragmatic football that gets results. The clinical execution is to be respected, or perhaps even admired, but I wouldn't go further than that. The movement, the passing, the ease.. Come on. It was such classy football.. The best I've seen all tournament. Pragmatic football is what Argentina and the Netherlands played. Germany played football aimed at dominance. But whatever. We'll see against Argentina. It is easy to pass if no one applies any pressure. It was good football, I agree. But beautiful, it's just not the word. Unfortunately I'm not sure Argentina will give them the game I'm hoping they will. They looked a bit knackered by the end to be honest having played two matches for 120 minutes, and with one less day to recover, well it's not ideal. I wouldn't call it a travesty if Germany won it, but it would be disappointing it they did without a single big hitter putting in a strong performance against them. That said, if it was my team who gained victory in such circumstances I wouldn't complain. Speaking as a neutral though, I think it's uninspiring. If we beat Argentina, Jimbatron will say that it was only possible because of Argentina didn't show up. If Argentina wins he will point out how brilliant that Argentinian team is. Germany played such effective, simple and beautiful football Simple and effective yes. Beautiful, no. Beautiful is Rodriguez's volley or Van Persie's header. German movement and passing is pragmatic football that gets results. The clinical execution is to be respected, or perhaps even admired, but I wouldn't go further than that. The movement, the passing, the ease.. Come on. It was such classy football.. The best I've seen all tournament. Pragmatic football is what Argentina and the Netherlands played. Germany played football aimed at dominance. Ssssssh, don't let common sense get in the way of someone's agenda. Ha ha, except, the reverse could be said of you no? Whatever happens, you'll put the most positive angle on Germany you can. And more to the point, I am speaking as a neutral here, I have no agenda. As I have mentioned previously, my earliest memory of international football is Diego Maradona knocking my team out with a hand-ball, so I have no pre-disposition towards Argentina. Judging by the flag in your signature I doubt you can claim to be so objective. My position is as follows: I would like to see a competitive final where both teams play well. I have no preference for either national team over the long term, but I would like to see Messi lift the trophy as one of the all time great players. I can't help but compare Messi to Muller. The former tries to stay on his feet whilst being kicked repeatedly. Muller rolls around on the floor to get players sent off. Personally, I put the honour and attitude of players in as high regard as their skill. Incidentally, I'm quite a fan of Sebastian Vettel, who's not only a class act but also a decent bloke. I also had a preference for Germany to win in 1990 after they knocked England out on penalties, so there's no anti-German feeling here in general. Edited July 11, 2014 by Jimbatron Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kampioen Posted July 11, 2014 Share Posted July 11, 2014 (edited) I think the way we see a country's football style is often linked to stereotypes that we have of that country. For instance, because it was Germany winning against Brazil, we call it "clinical" and "pragmatic". But had it been for instance Italy playing the exact same way, we might have called it "fiery" or "passionate". Edited July 11, 2014 by CenMan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Arthur Posted July 12, 2014 Share Posted July 12, 2014 I still can't understand how some people support a country that's not theirs. I am not talking about a football club but your OWN country. Well, maybe because some of these people's countries suck so incredibly bad at football, that they don't even want to see them play. I'm one of those people. Bahraini football is just....... Saudi Arabia is our neighbouring country and you know how bad they suck. I can't even describe it. However, I don't think that supporting a country that's not your own is forbidden. People should be able to support countries that they do not belong to. I don't see what's wrong with that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eutyphro Posted July 12, 2014 Share Posted July 12, 2014 (edited) I think the way we see a country's football style is often linked to stereotypes that we have of that country. For instance, because it was Germany winning against Brazil, we call it "clinical" and "pragmatic". But had it been for instance Italy playing the exact same way, we might have called it "fiery" or "passionate". If it were Dutch, it would've been 'total football'.. And it was total football, it was glorious. (If it were Spanish, it would've been 'tiki-taka') Edited July 12, 2014 by gtaxpert Kampioen 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jimbatron Posted July 12, 2014 Share Posted July 12, 2014 (edited) I think the way we see a country's football style is often linked to stereotypes that we have of that country. For instance, because it was Germany winning against Brazil, we call it "clinical" and "pragmatic". But had it been for instance Italy playing the exact same way, we might have called it "fiery" or "passionate". There's a degree of this often in commentary, nevertheless, it doesn't mean this descriptions are always inaccurate for some teams. Take a couple of England players (back when some of them were half decent, so forgive me for winding back the clock a bit more than 20 years). Gary Lineker was more in the mould of the German performance - not saying he was as good, or worse, just the style was the same. The thing was, when Lineker got the ball you knew what he was going to do with it next. The right thing, the optimal thing, the rational, whatever you want to call it. He was a cool and clinical player. The sort who would punish bad defending ruthlessly. Paul Gascoigne was different. He was mercurial. He'd do what you didn't expect or even spot was on. Sometimes farcical, but sometimes mesmerising. He wouldn't embarrass bad defending by putting a hat-trick past you, but against the team where it seemed there was no way through, he'd be the one who pulled something ridiculous out of the bag. So going back to Germany versus Brazil, every pass the Germans made to set up a goal, I could see coming before they made it - especially given they had that much space and time. It was the right thing to do, rational, optimal etc. Pragmatic and clinical is exactly accurate, its the same style as Lineker (not that he owns it, but you know what I mean). Don't get me wrong, from and English perspective, if we could have Gary back, I'd jump at the chance. We all like our teams to win right, and rarely complain when they do? However, that style of play is by its nature a bit more dependent on how good the team is in front of you. Rodriguez however, to take one example, I didn't see that volley coming until he drew back to hit it. That's not to say the Germans have zero flair, or that some of the latin teams have no precision, but nevertheless, its not a bad description of the way they play. Edited July 12, 2014 by Jimbatron Max 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eutyphro Posted July 12, 2014 Share Posted July 12, 2014 I don't agree. Some of the things the Germans did against Brazil were really creative. But it is true that often they were just playing the most optimal passes in quick tempo, Barca style... I find that attractive football though. It is true that it is fun when something like that van Persie header happens once in a while, but optimal posession football is beautiful too, and especially Kroos was such a genius against Brazil. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jimbatron Posted July 12, 2014 Share Posted July 12, 2014 (edited) Seriously, have a look at the goals again carefully. Look at the Brazilians, especially. You'll see how bad their shape is before the German moves even start. 1: Corner, Muller completely unmarked. 100% bad defending. It's not even a header, he's at the back post an volleys in. If anyone is even on that part of the pitch for Brazil, they head it away, or at least make Muller jump for it. 2: Watch the Brazil players - there are three defenders just jogging back. It's a nice bit of play from Germany to set up Klose's first shot, which is saved, but even I'd have made it back in time to challenge him before his second shot from the rebound. Should have been closed down in that time but no challenge is made. 3: Watch the position of three Brazilian defenders when Lahm passed the ball in. They are all in line with the 6 yard box. There are no German players even remotely near them - they haven't chased people there, its just bad positioning, full stop. If even one of them comes out to challenge Lahm or pick up Kroos, they should be fine. They are not there because they been flumoxed by some German move. It's simply bad defending that they are that deep. 4: Fernandinho is dis-posesed in midfield from the kick off and it's criminal. It's not a great challenge, he's not even looking and it's like taking candy from a baby. Dante's position is terrible at this point - out of line and puts the German attacker onside, otherwise they have to check their runs. 2 v 2 and the goal is easy, but again, the goal is not created by Germany brilliance - sloppy play from Brazil. 5: Check the Brazilian line when Khedira first receives the ball. The Brazilian line is woefully out of shape. Marcelo on the left for Brazil plays them all onside, and he's so far out of line with the centre backs there is acres of space to put the through ball into. Ozil's return to Khedira is very good however, and makes it easy to finish. 6: Lahm is completely unmarked, although there are four Brazilian defenders available to do so none of whom are picking anyone else up. They've not even been pulled out of shape by clever movement, they've just gone to sleep. 7: No arguments with this one, not many teams would have stopped this goal. Great pass and sublime finish. The best of the 7 by a long way. If you get over the initial shock of Brazil conceding 7, and look at it again, carefully, you'll see just how easy they made it for Germany. I'd say three of the goals Germany deserve a decent amount of credit for, but 4 of them I would say are primarily down to insane errors from Brazil, that most teams in the knock out stages would have shut down before the moves started. Edited July 12, 2014 by Jimbatron Danz. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Danz. Posted July 12, 2014 Share Posted July 12, 2014 (edited) You are talking about Brazil like they were the national team of Malta. Come on.. It was really shocking to Brazil's football scene. A complete change to the usual brazilian playstyle is being discussed by our press, adopting the typical defensive tatics of some European teams and hiring a foreign coach for the next competitions. The quality of the brazilian football has decreased to embarrasing levels in the recent years, to the point that the likes of Fred, Jo and Bernard were considered good players before the start of the WC. Expect to see Brazil playing like a small team in the next international tournament. The style that you guys were used to see from us has officially died in that match. Edited July 12, 2014 by Danz. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ddyoung Posted July 12, 2014 Share Posted July 12, 2014 You are talking about Brazil like they were the national team of Malta. Come on.. July 8th 2014 Brazil 1-7 Germany May 13th 2010 Malta 0-3 Germany Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr Rabbit Posted July 12, 2014 Share Posted July 12, 2014 (edited) f*ck, now I'm depressed. We're doomed to never win a world cup. Nether-gonna-win-it-lands will get that star one day, i promise. ^^ f*ckin lol. Brazil were horrendous in that match though, the worst performance I have seen in the knock-out stages ever. Edited July 12, 2014 by Flynny Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eutyphro Posted July 12, 2014 Share Posted July 12, 2014 (edited) You are talking about Brazil like they were the national team of Malta. Come on.. July 8th 2014 Brazil 1-7 Germany May 13th 2010 Malta 0-3 Germany Friendlies aren't comparable to world cup semi finals where players are extremely focused and full of adrenaline. You can see scores like 4 - 0 between teams that are similar in quality in some matches, like Bayern - Real Madrid last Champions Leaugue. The score isn't everything. Because Bayern isn't to Real Madrid what Malta is to Germany.. I'm sure that were Malta to play as offensive as Brazil kept on doing, they'd have lost 20 - 0. But teams like Malta are smart enough to make limiting the amount of damage done a top priority from minute one on. You are talking about Brazil like they were the national team of Malta. Come on.. It was really shocking to Brazil's football scene. A complete change to the usual brazilian playstyle is being discussed by our press, adopting the typical defensive tatics of some European teams and hiring a foreign coach for the next competitions. The quality of the brazilian football has decreased to embarrasing levels in the recent years, to the point that the likes of Fred, Jo and Bernard were considered good players before the start of the WC. Expect to see Brazil playing like a small team in the next international tournament. The style that you guys were used to see from us has officially died in that match. I sure hope not. It is true though that the current generation of Brazilian players, the ones that make it to big European teams, seems to mainly consist of good defenders and wingbacks, but has a lack of creative midfielders and strikers. But I'm sure that there are more talented Brazilian offensive players around than Fred, even currently. You guys need someone like van Gaal, who throws out all the players that aren't fit enough or are old and crap, and who recognizes real talent. I'm sure Brazil can always have a good team, and I'm sure that team never should have Fred in it. Everybody loves a high quality Brazilian football team, and I'm sure we'll see one again. Edited July 12, 2014 by gtaxpert Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jimbatron Posted July 12, 2014 Share Posted July 12, 2014 (edited) Brazil will bounce back, I'm sure of that. This year is an anomaly, not part of a trend. You can't argue with their very long history of producing amazing players. Sadly for some of the players in this World Cup there will need to be some changes. They weren't up to it and you wonder what it will do to the confidence of individuals. Fortunately, their two best players from this tournament, who are worth retaining, don't have to mentally carry the can for the farcical performance against Germany. I have a feeling Neymar will arrive in Russia 2018 like a man on a mission. Knowing our luck, England might have a semi decent team by then, only to be crushed by a vengeful Brazil. Edited July 12, 2014 by Jimbatron Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doc Rikowski Posted July 12, 2014 Share Posted July 12, 2014 You are talking about Brazil like they were the national team of Malta. Come on.. It was really shocking to Brazil's football scene. A complete change to the usual brazilian playstyle is being discussed by our press, adopting the typical defensive tatics of some European teams and hiring a foreign coach for the next competitions. The quality of the brazilian football has decreased to embarrasing levels in the recent years, to the point that the likes of Fred, Jo and Bernard were considered good players before the start of the WC. Expect to see Brazil playing like a small team in the next international tournament. The style that you guys were used to see from us has officially died in that match. Some of the Brazilian press I read (Globo, Folha de São Paulo) was actually saying the opposite. Going back to the real Brazilian style, the one Brazil used to play when Zico was around and abandon the "European" style of play... And to be honest I agree. Brazil lacked the joy of playing football that was their main characteristic when they used to win. Tactics are important too and in fact tactics were used mainly in 1994 and to a certain degree also in 2002, even though Scolari has no idea what tactics are. But the main issue that was pointed by the press is the fact that Brazilian players leave Brazil for Europe way too soon and by doing so they sort of lose their" Brazilianness". If you think about it is kinda true. Brazil lacks talent right now and Brazilian talent has always been homegrown. Look at Pelé. He never played in Europe. Zico got there when he was already a magnificent player. etc etc Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stephan90 Posted July 12, 2014 Share Posted July 12, 2014 Nicola Rizzoli will be the referee for tomorrow, any thoughts on this FIFA decision? I thought it was an unwritten rule, that the ref for the final should not be from one of the continents, where the finalists are from. I can imagine two reasons why Rizzoli could mean disadvantage for us, and I am not talking about the two wrong decisions he made in the Netherlands vs Spain game. But I should not judge him before the game. However, Howard Webb would have been fine to as world referee 2013. Or isn't it allowed because of the Falkland war and because the English people love us so much? ;-) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Der Süden Posted July 12, 2014 Share Posted July 12, 2014 Jimbatron, I see the Union Jack under your avatar. Are you from England? That would explain alot... I know what you mean pal, but what did you expect from them? 1 day before the final I couldn't care less anyway, I'm too nervous and the match tomorrow is dominating my mind. When I'm thinking of a defeat, I almost need to change my pants, when I'm thinking of a victory, I'm on cloud nine. If we lose, I will be out of here and start crying like a little boy. If we win, I will have a huge party with the 80 million other Germans and drink beer until my piss can fill a bathtub. How do you feel about tomorrow? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stephan90 Posted July 12, 2014 Share Posted July 12, 2014 Yes it is an all or nothing game. In 2018 Lahm, Schweinsteiger, Klose, Podolski and maybe Neuer won't play anymore. It will be alot harder than with this team, which is one of the best we ever had, our "golden generation". But I am very confident for tomorrow. We have the better team. They are all focused and not overhyped after the Brazil game. We have young dynamic and older experienced players. Players who lost and won big finals in their career, who are smart enough to not let it slip through their hands this time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doc Rikowski Posted July 12, 2014 Share Posted July 12, 2014 I think it's better for you to have an experienced European ref rather than some from Africa, Central America or Asia who has no idea how to ref a final. Rizzoli did a couple of mistakes but overall I think you shouldn't worry about him. Personally I think Webb was better but maybe the Argentinians weren't too keen of him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Der Süden Posted July 12, 2014 Share Posted July 12, 2014 The thing is that many Italians immigrated to Argentina, and what does the FIFA do? Choose an Italian referee. And in case Germany wins, it would have 4 stars and push Italy of its throne (since Germany won more vice champion titles). On the paper it looks like a bad situation for the German team. I'm not calling conspiracy or that Rizzoli is going to favor the Argentinian team, but I can't say I'm happy with the referee decision, it doesn't make me feel comfortable. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LeonTheKiller Posted July 12, 2014 Share Posted July 12, 2014 (edited) Brazil lacked discipline. The defense was lost ,all over the place,there was no tactics at all,no midfield. they keep passing the ball to Neymar to see what he could do. That obvious wouldn't work forever. I am surprised that we reached the semis. Anyhow, I can't understand why he called Fred. He sucks. There are better players out there,like Robinho,Luis Fabiano,Pato.. and even though these aren't that great,they are miles better than Fred!I Hope Felipao gets fired soon. PS: Sorry for my bad english, i tried,but i couldn't hold myself, Had to post my rant here Edited July 12, 2014 by _Douglas_ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jimbatron Posted July 12, 2014 Share Posted July 12, 2014 Jimbatron, I see the Union Jack under your avatar. Are you from England? That would explain alot... I know what you mean pal, but what did you expect from them? That remark says more about you than it does about me. You clearly haven't bothered to read my posts at all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dutchy3010 Posted July 12, 2014 Share Posted July 12, 2014 Today the Third place playoff. Even though we (Holland) lost from Argentina, I'm so proud of our team. I never experienced that - I was sooo disappointed when we lost the final in 2010... Now I'm proud. Of course I was disappointed after the semi-final, but I did not expect that we would reach this far. Holland Jimbatron, Eutyphro and FAT CURRY 3 DYOM - Create, play, share! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kampioen Posted July 12, 2014 Share Posted July 12, 2014 I think the way we see a country's football style is often linked to stereotypes that we have of that country. For instance, because it was Germany winning against Brazil, we call it "clinical" and "pragmatic". But had it been for instance Italy playing the exact same way, we might have called it "fiery" or "passionate". There's a degree of this often in commentary, nevertheless, it doesn't mean this descriptions are always inaccurate for some teams. Take a couple of England players (back when some of them were half decent, so forgive me for winding back the clock a bit more than 20 years). Gary Lineker was more in the mould of the German performance - not saying he was as good, or worse, just the style was the same. The thing was, when Lineker got the ball you knew what he was going to do with it next. The right thing, the optimal thing, the rational, whatever you want to call it. He was a cool and clinical player. The sort who would punish bad defending ruthlessly. Paul Gascoigne was different. He was mercurial. He'd do what you didn't expect or even spot was on. Sometimes farcical, but sometimes mesmerising. He wouldn't embarrass bad defending by putting a hat-trick past you, but against the team where it seemed there was no way through, he'd be the one who pulled something ridiculous out of the bag. So going back to Germany versus Brazil, every pass the Germans made to set up a goal, I could see coming before they made it - especially given they had that much space and time. It was the right thing to do, rational, optimal etc. Pragmatic and clinical is exactly accurate, its the same style as Lineker (not that he owns it, but you know what I mean). Don't get me wrong, from and English perspective, if we could have Gary back, I'd jump at the chance. We all like our teams to win right, and rarely complain when they do? However, that style of play is by its nature a bit more dependent on how good the team is in front of you. Rodriguez however, to take one example, I didn't see that volley coming until he drew back to hit it. That's not to say the Germans have zero flair, or that some of the latin teams have no precision, but nevertheless, its not a bad description of the way they play. You make a good point. It is true that you could see most of the German goals coming pretty long before they were scored. But this was partly due to terrible defence by Brazil. Had it been a country playing that we normally don't percieve as being clinical, I think many people would have focused on other aspects of the game in order to maintain the perception that they have of that team. We could for instance have focused on the relentlessness in creating opportunities and scoring goals. I don't agree. Some of the things the Germans did against Brazil were really creative. But it is true that often they were just playing the most optimal passes in quick tempo, Barca style... I find that attractive football though. It is true that it is fun when something like that van Persie header happens once in a while, but optimal posession football is beautiful too, and especially Kroos was such a genius against Brazil. What I find beautiful football is quite simple, it is domination. That includes posession and creating many opportunities. Passing the ball around, waiting for a short pass to an almost-offside player to land just right is quite boring to me. But when you have lots of posession and still try to score goals that are likely to fail (like the one from Van Persie), that's what produces the most entertaining matches for me. Missed goals become valuable and entertaining too if they come in a large number. Jimbatron 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AndyGanteks Posted July 12, 2014 Share Posted July 12, 2014 Well lol..what a nice start...another 7:1? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
I cucked Alex Jones Posted July 12, 2014 Share Posted July 12, 2014 And so it begins... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ddyoung Posted July 12, 2014 Share Posted July 12, 2014 Ok, Brazil. You officially cannot do soccer anymore. The stadium is silent right now Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnny_zoo Posted July 12, 2014 Share Posted July 12, 2014 (edited) Dear lord. Silva OH Silva.... Edited July 12, 2014 by johnny_zoo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hodgey. Posted July 12, 2014 Share Posted July 12, 2014 That didn't take long. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GTAKid667 Posted July 12, 2014 Share Posted July 12, 2014 Just turned on and its already 1 - 0 Another game in which Brazil are going to be made to look bad again, I guess. The Chain Game Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FranklinDeRoosevelt Posted July 12, 2014 Share Posted July 12, 2014 Holy damn sh*t, Holland scored already! DAYUMMMMM Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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