Concerning Grove Street and the Ballas (San andreas Spoiler)

[BlackJackTomato]

Lazlow? Jesus, I forgot this idiot.
Weeell, Lazlow is a Universe Lord and he is in all Parallel-Universes that exists.

Question is: What's happened to SF and LV?

[Jimmy Darmody]

 

 

GTA 5: PS2 Era Characters Won't Appear, But Some GTA 4 Ones Will

Adam Barnes

Tommy Vercetti, CJ, Claude and even Niko Bellic will not be returning to the Grand Theft Auto series, Rockstar has confirmed.

Published on Nov 8, 2012

Sorry to be the bearer of bad news, but if you were adamant that characters from Vice City, San Andreas or GTA 3 will be making an appearance in GTA 5 then you might want to rethink that. Rockstar has confirmed that the definitely won't be.

Among the flood of GTA 5 details gathered from Game Informer's cover feature, Dan Houser confirmed that we won't be seeing any of the PS2 era characters turn up in GTA 5.

 

 

 

On in-game cameos

Dan Houser: “The five PS2 games are one universe, and this is the high definition universe, so they don’t co-exist. You would never see CJ or Tommy Vercetti. They would be like mythical characters in this world who never existed.

 

 

 

Comparison to Eras

Universes are closely linked to Eras, which are logical groupings of the games based entirely on their number (i.e. GTA III starting the GTA III Era). It is possible for universes to contain more than one era. The 2D Universe contains the GTA 1 Era and GTA 2 (which is its own separate era). The HD Universe contains the GTA IV Era and GTA V (which is starting its own era).

The difference is that games within an era are very closely related, often with many characters and storylines appearing in multiple games. Also, the visual style and most features are replicated within an era.

In contrast, games within the same universe (but in separate eras) might be completely different and almost totally unrelated. The futuristic GTA 2 is not similar to the 1960s GTA London games.

An era can be thought of as a group of closely-related stories (like a trilogy), told through several games within one universe. Different eras may be set in the same universe, even with a bit of crossover, but they are completely separate stories with different styles and a different feel.

As GTA V and GTA IV are in the same HD universe, that gives Rockstar the ability to continue some characters or even storylines into the new game, but Dan Houser has said this would only happen sparingly. GTA V is a completely separate game, with different features and a very different feel - it is not "GTA IV: Los Santos", and is not part of the GTA IV Era.

Dan says that no one before GTA IV will be in it – the move to HD created a schism in this fictional universe, rendering CJ, Tony and co, as mythical characters from a bygone era. But will we see stories from the previous game looping into this one? "I think that might be too mannered," says Houser. "Nico had a particular kind of story and we're trying to make this different. We might allude to things from that world, but we didn't want it to feel like, well, here's the opposite of an immigration story – we wanted a fresh take on what it means to be a criminal in this world of hyper-real Americana".

Interview with Dan Houser in The Guardian

Anyone below this post insisting on characters coming back or making theories to what happent to Grove Street in GTA: SA is going full retarded PREMIUM on a f*cking happy hour (actually, anyone who said the it above went the same as well)

Edited October 5, 2013 by Jimmy Darmody

[DoubleOGJohnson]

Ok to end the universe bullsh*t, Grove street is clearly still there. Damn people come on

 

Word, dudes are addressing LS in GTA V like's a completely new world. Then someone in this thread had the nerve to say the "terrain" is different. REALLY? Los Santos in GTA SA had the beach to the southwest, Downtown was in the middle of the city, the hills are to the north, the airport is to the south, rich snobs are to the west, poor people are to south and the east.. Flash forward to LS in GTA V, the beach is to the south and west, Downtown is the middle of the city, the hills are to the north, the airport is to the south, rich snobs are to the west, poor people are to south and the east. Soooooooo at the end of the day, what's the difference? Same f*cking terrain to me, either that or the era fanatics see something I don't see it. Rockstar added Koreatown and that's about it, what other CONCRETE [not imaginary] difference is there between GTA Los Santos and GTA 5 Los Santos to warrant eras besides Rockstar throwing some random Asian immigrants in the city? Oh I finally get it, San Andreas Los Santos is 3D era Los Santos. And GTA V Los Santos is the Korean Definition/KoreanUniverse/Korean Era of Los Santos. All makes sense now.

Edited October 5, 2013 by DoubleOGJohnson

[TiddleyWinker]

Multiverse. Seriously, have some of you guys never heard of that term or how it works? Either the real life hyptothesis of multi parallel universes or as a story telling device?

 

The 3D era universe is a different universe than that of the HD era universe, however like every parallel universe they can share as many or as little parallels as you can imagine. In this case, stuff like brand names, cities etc etc carry over, but characters and storylines necessarily don't. Hell, it's possible CJ could exist in the HD era, but perhaps not share the same fate as he did in the 3D universe, perhaps he never grew up "in the hood", perhaps he was born to a wealthy family, perhaps he ran with the Ballas, perhaps he got shot and killed before he became the CJ we know, or more likely as agreed on by the vast majority of fanbase and R*, he just doesn't exist in this universe.

 

Lazlow is also a little different as he's a real life person, just his ingame character is slightly exaggerated.

Edited October 5, 2013 by TiddleyWinker

[IronZombie]

 

gsf green flag

In the mission Hood Safari Franklin and Lamar were talking about how Grove Street used to be Famillies Turf.

 

This confused me a lot, to me this is not the same Grove Street from GTA San Andreas. This is a whole different world, theres no bridge before you go into it, The Johnson House is not there, it's a completely whole different Grove street which has probably been a purple hood for many years.

 

When Lamar does mention Families, he doesn't mention Sweet, CJ or anybody, he just said something along the lines of "Grove was a Families turf a long time ago". This can mean many things, this could mean a Families gang could have operated from Grove Street in the 1960s or 1970s!

 

Or maybe at 1 point every black gang in South LS wore green, & then as years went by the Families had internal problems within each set & 1 side decided to wear purple, just like the real life bloods & crips.

 

It was fan service. They didn't have to include Grove Street at all in the game, but they did so to please the fans. It's a throwback. That's why in the same mission you can see what appears to be Sweet/CJ/Smoke riding bicycles along the road. It's not actually them, but it's Rockstar's way of giving the fans what they want.

 

Same thing with Lamar saying it used to be Families turf. It was a throwback to San Andreas. Anyone who played SA would immediately get that. You guys are thinking way too much into this.

[Tycek]

Lazlow is a bit different, because he was never shown before as a person, he was just a voice in the radio. Just look at the Willie from Love Fist. It was four man band and all of the guys were shown only as artwork in VC manual, yet in every mission there were only three of them. Willie was never shown so he could appear in the V.

 

Is the whole theory so hard to understand for some people?

[Jimmy Darmody]

 

 

Word, dudes are addressing LS in GTA V like's a completely new world. Then someone in this thread had the nerve to say the "terrain" is different. REALLY? Los Santos in GTA SA had the beach to the southwest, Downtown was in the middle of the city, the hills are to the north, the airport is to the south, rich snobs are to the west, poor people are to south and the east.. Flash forward to LS in GTA V, the beach is to the south and west, Downtown is the middle of the city, the hills are to the north, the airport is to the south, rich snobs are to the west, poor people are to south and the east. Soooooooo at the end of the day, what's the difference?

That only proves that both SA Los Santos and GTA V Los Santos are based off the same city. In SA, the observatory is on the south, wich is the exact opposite where it is now. Maze Bank Arena is just north of the airport, it was supposed to be in east lost santos. Most streets and zones don't even have the same name... how could it be the same Los Santos? This is how: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Confirmation_bias because this is you.

 

 

 

 

Grove street from SA and Grove Street from V only have in common shape and name. Just that.

 

 

 

 

either that or the era fanatics see something I don't see it

A guy who's nickname is DoubleOGJohnson, with his avatar and signature being allusive to Grove Street, overreacting about the possibility that GTA V has directly nothing to do with SA (wich it doesn't, as confirmed by the guy who actually crated the game)...calling other fanatic? LOL! Irony (Unfortunely this is also you: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Projection_(psychology))

[Thisnamehasnotbeentaken]

Jimmy "dick sucker" darmody and other universe f*cktards would you kindly f*ck off and let us have our fun imagining what COULD have happened to grove street, CJ etc. Don't like that we wont accept the universe crap? tough sh*t, move on and don't waste your sorry ass time clicking on this thread. f*ck off and leave.

 

Now, personally I think the good times could have only lasted so long for the families. They were anti-drugs, and this doesn't bode well for the families future. Whoever pushes the most base controls the hood and while the families did go some way to slowing down the production of crack in the city, their is always other ways the ballas/vagos can obtain it. Grove street didn't keep up with the times, stuck in the old protecting the hood mentality which in the long run did them no favours as the base pushers, ballas/vagos, once again took over after the short lived control grove street had.

Edited October 5, 2013 by Thisnamehasnotbeentaken

[jamieleng]

The "era" bullsh*t doesn't work anymore, it worked in GTA 4 because Liberty City in GTE

 

 

Yea a lot can happen in 20 years. f*ck that different universes sh*t, I consider it cannon in my head. That universe sh*t was just a quick response so they can do away with old characters, if that question was never asked we'd never have a different universe theory thing or whatever.

 

With that being said, like I said a lot can go down in twenty years.

Even if Rockstar never mentioned separate universes, how do you explain the completely different terrain & layout of Los Santos & the state of San Andreas? Simple, they are different universes.

 

 

That era/universe sh*t is completely stupid, only complete fanboys treat it as gospel like its blasphemy to link two GTA games. Yall take that era sh*t TOO SERIOUSLY, some of yall are the same people who swore before GTA V info leaked that Families and Ballas wouldn't be in GTA V so why even listen to them? They're always wrong about sh*t. "Eras" are just a marketing catch phrase used for Rockstar to recreate old cities. That era/universe bullsh*t only worked in GTA 4 Because Liberty City in GTA 3 was drasticially different from LC in GTA 4 because GTA 3 was made before Rockstar started focusing on recreating real city renditions in detail.

 

Rockstar started rendering real cities in GTA VC. And GTA SA came out after Rockstar had begun to make detailed cities, therefore that same universe jumping bullsh*t that worked between GTA 3 and GTA 4 simply doesn't work with San Andreas-GTA V. GTA 5 Los Santos is nothing but a bigger version of GTA SA Los Santos with better graphics. You cant use that era sh*t no more.

And you still haven't given a reasonable explanation for the massive difference in map layout & size. What happened to SF & LV in this version of San Andreas. Was there a massive earthquake that sank both cities & completely destroyed LS, which they landscaped & rebuilt from scratch. Do you see how ludicrous your thinking is when written down.

 

I know you have no answer, so you'll just come out with such bullsh*t as "But Lazlow is in all the games since 3 (buy has only physically appeared once, in V). Or "OG Loc is on a CD case & Donald Love is on newspapers". So come on, give me a rational explanation

[BlackJackTomato]

"GTA 5 Los Santos is nothing but a bigger version of GTA SA Los Santos with better graphics. "
You forgot the part when LS and SF vanished from the world.

Edited October 6, 2013 by BlackJackTomato

[Iroquois]

I truly despise those who say it isnt part of the same "universe"

I also hate those who use the word canon.

A lot of these who dont believe SA, VC, IV is part of V should go play the game some more.....you'll find even more references...

Just now on social club, someone posted a pic of OG LOC's star of fame (in V) in front of the chinese hollywood theatre.

 

HOW could OG LOC's presence be in V if it's not "canon"???? It's inconcievable.

 

Of course, SA, VC, IV and V are part of the same universe. Maybe even III as well.

 

Im thinking those who say it is NOT canon are those religious types of ppl who when you tell them that god is fictitious or you use facts to provide the truth, they continue to stick to their original fairytales.

 

 

"GTA 5 Los Santos is nothing but a bigger version of GTA SA Los Santos with better graphics. "
You forgot the part when LS and SF vanished from the world.

 

Umm.. it hasnt vanished.....who the hell said it was missing? It's still present in V's SA but is only focusing on 1 city: LS and not on all 3 at the same time.

Oh im sorry, I forgot that between 3 large citiies there is exrememly short distances between them....(sarcasm)......If you did not pick up on it already, R* was going for realism in creating an environment. They wouldnt of made 3 cities close to 1 another separated by thin slivers of rivers.... As i think of it now, your absolutely right, Los angeles, las vegas and san franscicso are side by side in real life.....facepalm

Edited October 6, 2013 by Iroquois

[ShadowDog94]

Explain how Cris Formage, Jack Howitzer, Jock Cranley, BJ Smith, Madd Dogg and Lazlow exist in the HD Universe.

[Iroquois]

Explain how Cris Formage, Jack Howitzer, Jock Cranley, BJ Smith, Madd Dogg and Lazlow exist in the HD Universe.

 

They could not explain it. They are just blowing smoke up everyones ass.

Edited October 6, 2013 by Iroquois

[Jimmy Darmody]

Explain how Cris Formage, Jack Howitzer, Jock Cranley, BJ Smith, Madd Dogg and Lazlow exist in the HD Universe.

They are not really the same people. Same way that the Ballas are not the Ballas from SA. Only thing they have in common is the name and colour. The Famalies are not the Grove Street Famalies, only thing they have in common is the colour.

 

Cris Formage just happens to be 2 guys, one in the III universe and the other in HD universe, with the exact same background. But they are still in 2 different universes.

 

Imagine twin brothers, each in his house: They look the same and act the same, but are not the same and are in 2 different places.

 

E-mail Rockstar and search on goolge about the universes and see for yourself.

Edited October 6, 2013 by Jimmy Darmody

[caseclosedjk]

Please read my theory on this matter here: http://gtaforums.com/topic/353838-is-carl-johnson-dead/page-5?do=findComment&comment=1063614699

 

 

 

 

Carl left sanandreas to go back to LC after the end of the game. Possibly around 1993 or so, Carl went to Liberty City to expand his empire and possibly gang influence. However, when he arrived, Toni Cipriani was ordered by Salvatore to kill Carl. Toni had to lie low in Vice City for 5 years because carls friends were still in town looking for him. Between that 5 years, the rest of the grove influence in LC were killed off by the leoni family and their allies, and finally, in 1998, Toni returned and LCS began. Within the 20 years after carls death, Sweat was killed by rival gangs, Kendl and ceaser flee to another city, and grove becomes independent without leaders. Sometime in this time, grove street is taken by ballas and many of the old structures were torn down and new homes were built. Carls ex girlfriend denise robinson changed her name back to Clinton, her maiden name (There was talk she was married once, and had 3 kids), and she stayed loyal to the grove street families. Due to losing carl, she became more bitter than she was. She eventually was forced to raise her sisters son after her death. She still lives near grove street to this day due to dedication to her lost love.

 

Also, carls garage still exists. The house was torn down but it appears the garage is intact.

Edited October 6, 2013 by caseclosedjk

[mastershake616]

I truly despise those who say it isnt part of the same "universe"

I also hate those who use the word canon.

A lot of these who dont believe SA, VC, IV is part of V should go play the game some more.....you'll find even more references...

Just now on social club, someone posted a pic of OG LOC's star of fame (in V) in front of the chinese hollywood theatre.

 

HOW could OG LOC's presence be in V if it's not "canon"???? It's inconcievable.

 

Of course, SA, VC, IV and V are part of the same universe. Maybe even III as well.

 

Im thinking those who say it is NOT canon are those religious types of ppl who when you tell them that god is fictitious or you use facts to provide the truth, they continue to stick to their original fairytales.

 

 

"GTA 5 Los Santos is nothing but a bigger version of GTA SA Los Santos with better graphics. "

You forgot the part when LS and SF vanished from the world.

 

Umm.. it hasnt vanished.....who the hell said it was missing? It's still present in V's SA but is only focusing on 1 city: LS and not on all 3 at the same time.

Oh im sorry, I forgot that between 3 large citiies there is exrememly short distances between them....(sarcasm)......If you did not pick up on it already, R* was going for realism in creating an environment. They wouldnt of made 3 cities close to 1 another separated by thin slivers of rivers.... As i think of it now, your absolutely right, Los angeles, las vegas and san franscicso are side by side in real life.....facepalm

You're not a very smart individual, are you?

 

Do you idiots not understand that ideas develop and revise overtime?

 

The 3D and HD universal differentiation is not some fan fiction ideology. It's FACT. Are there parallels? Yes. But anything seen in the HD games that were seen in the 3D universe should be looked at as influences above all else.

 

Think of it like a director and his/her filmography. Are similar shot executions, actors, crew members, plotting techniques apparent? Of course, but does that mean all of their films exist on identical plains of fiction? Feel free to connect the oh-so-cryptic dots.

 

GTA IV isn't called GTA VI for a reason.

[Lil ski]

Man f*ck that universe sh*t. That was just a cop out so they could start a fresh story with IV but it's VERY obvious now that they are slowly trying to move away from their words (Grove Street and Lamar and Frank talking about how Grove St used to be Families turf and whatever happened to CJ, etc)

 

But anyways here's what I think about HD Grove St.

 

After the adventures from SA, CJ was super rich and owned properties and Buisness all over SA and was also a co producer for Madd Dog, he got all Jay-Z in the head and moved out of the hood for good to pursue a better life, leaving Sweet and the rest of the GSF by themselves. Well in 1993 the Ballas so this and used this to its advantage and overran Grove St and killed off Sweet and most of the GSF. They also burned down Sweet's and CJ's house and turned it into a trap house. Now today, the original GSF are either dead or in jail or joined in with other Family sets.

[Lil ski]

Please read my theory on this matter here: http://gtaforums.com/topic/353838-is-carl-johnson-dead/page-5?do=findComment&comment=1063614699

 

 

 

Carl left sanandreas to go back to LC after the end of the game. Possibly around 1993 or so, Carl went to Liberty City to expand his empire and possibly gang influence. However, when he arrived, Toni Cipriani was ordered by Salvatore to kill Carl. Toni had to lie low in Vice City for 5 years because carls friends were still in town looking for him. Between that 5 years, the rest of the grove influence in LC were killed off by the leoni family and their allies, and finally, in 1998, Toni returned and LCS began. Within the 20 years after carls death, Sweat was killed by rival gangs, Kendl and ceaser flee to another city, and grove becomes independent without leaders. Sometime in this time, grove street is taken by ballas and many of the old structures were torn down and new homes were built. Carls ex girlfriend denise robinson changed her name back to Clinton, her maiden name (There was talk she was married once, and had 3 kids), and she stayed loyal to the grove street families. Due to losing carl, she became more bitter than she was. She eventually was forced to raise her sisters son after her death. She still lives near grove street to this day due to dedication to her lost love.

Also, carls garage still exists. The house was torn down but it appears the garage is intact.

Actually your theory sounds a lot more detailed than mine. I like it

[The Jungz]

GTA V and GTA SA aren't on the same universe.

 

The Groove on GTA V isn't the Groove of SA, Jesus, everything is different, including San Andreas, I mean. HOW THE HELL GTA V AND SA ARE ON THE SAME UNIVERSE? Only if San Fierro and Las Venturas has suffer the biggest earthquake ever and be completly destroyed or whatever.

 

The only solution is if the universe of GTA V has a Groove Street Families, but isn't the GSF of SA. That's bad, I was expectin nostalgia, but...

You should probably use your imagination and imagine GTA V without those Universe restrictions bullsh*t, its much more fun.

[oCrapaCreeper]

There definitely is a line where there are different universes, most notable is Liberty City from III to IV. Where did Shoreside Vale go? Where did those giant cliffs go? Why did the airport magically flip sides? Why did everything get renamed? Where the f*ck did Happiness Island come from? The universe thing is Rockstar's explanation, there's no denying that.

 

But that doesn't stop people from using their imagination to picture things, and there's nothing wrong with that.

Edited October 6, 2013 by oCrapaCreeper

[Lil ski]

 

 

GTA V and GTA SA aren't on the same universe.

 

The Groove on GTA V isn't the Groove of SA, Jesus, everything is different, including San Andreas, I mean. HOW THE HELL GTA V AND SA ARE ON THE SAME UNIVERSE? Only if San Fierro and Las Venturas has suffer the biggest earthquake ever and be completly destroyed or whatever.

 

The only solution is if the universe of GTA V has a Groove Street Families, but isn't the GSF of SA. That's bad, I was expectin nostalgia, but...

You should probably use your imagination and imagine GTA V without those Universe restrictions bullsh*t, its much more fun.Exactly!

 

And SF and LV are confirmed to be still part of SA and LS is just southern SA.

 

I mean you gotta keep an imaginative mind about things. If you can accept the fact that you could get in a deadly shoutout with police, blow your self up by ramping your car off Mt Chliad, or getting Swiss cheesed by a BRIGADE of soldiers while trying to break into FT Zancudo, only to walk out of a freaking hospital the next day with only a few scars and 500-5000 bucks taken outta your checking account EVERY TIME, then you could take a little imaginative theories that are out of umm "universe".

[The Jungz]

 

 

 

 

San Andreas and GTA V are on separate canons. The only things to carry over are city names, product brands, and some select radio personalities.

 

Let us have our fun you f*cking dickhead.

 

 

You can have your fun, but that doesn't change facts, prick.

 

f*ck u and ur bullsh*t

 

 

It's not bullsh*t if it's true.

 

Pretty sure R* invented the ''Universes bullsh*t'' just to keep it simple and not being asked so many questions like '' What happened to CJ/Claude/Tommy ''.

[Black Ninja]

I swear I f*ckin hate when dudes call thd GROVE GROOVE it's f*ckin Grove nigga what the f*ck

[mrrightt]

I swear I f*ckin hate when dudes call thd GROVE GROOVE it's f*ckin Grove nigga what the f*ck

haha.. i feel you on that one homie lol.. i hate it when fools call families the grove street families.. or just grove street...

[killahmatic]

there was always at least one group of ballas hanging out in front of OG loc's house or Sweet's house,

 

Really? There never was for me other than if it was a scripted gang war setup.

 

Either way, I don't care. Different universe, and 20 years apart, it wasn't going to remain the same.

[mastershake616]

There definitely is a line where there are different universes, most notable is Liberty City from II to IV. Where did Shoreside Vale go? Where did those giant cliffs go? Why did the airport magically flip sides? Why did everything get renamed? Where the f*ck did Happiness Island come from? The universe thing is Rockstar's explanation, there's no denying that.

 

But that doesn't stop people from using their imagination to picture things, and there's nothing wrong with that.

As long as they aren't incorrectly correlating two established worlds that are definitively separate, no one can tell them that they're wrong. Determining the respective ambiguous fates of the 3D era protagonists is fine because we will never see them again and we will never know what actually happened to them.

Edited October 6, 2013 by mastershake616

[redman]

Why cant people just accept the fact that its a different universe and that the storyline doesn't connect. I mean its like the comic book movies should we just start connecting batman forever with the dark Knight? How about spiderman 3 and the amazing spiderman. They use the same names Same city but they have nothing to do with each other.

[The Jungz]

Why cant people just accept the fact that its a different universe and that the storyline doesn't connect. I mean its like the comic book movies should we just start connecting batman forever with the dark Knight? How about spiderman 3 and the amazing spiderman. They use the same names Same city but they have nothing to do with each other.

Because its way cooler to imagine GTA SA missions happening in the HD era than to just accept the fact that those characters never existed in the game you are playing. It add depth. It adds familiarity to the world you are playing in.

[redman]

@ throatslasher

 

 

So when I'm watching the amazing spiderman i should just imagine that peter parker divorce mary jane and went back to high school

Edited October 6, 2013 by redman

[caseclosedjk]

There definitely is a line where there are different universes, most notable is Liberty City from III to IV. Where did Shoreside Vale go? Where did those giant cliffs go? Why did the airport magically flip sides? Why did everything get renamed? Where the f*ck did Happiness Island come from? The universe thing is Rockstar's explanation, there's no denying that.

 

But that doesn't stop people from using their imagination to picture things, and there's nothing wrong with that.

This can be explained fairly easily.

 

My theory:

In IV, in the 7 years after we last saw LC (GTA 3), a large financial boom in the city took place that caused many businesses to open. The city had so much cash that they did alot of stuff. Francis International was bought out buy a new airline and was placed over in what was portland. Eventually, the city became so much bigger that the islands were renamed.

 

Also, Happiness Island and Bohan were created by man. Remember that in real life NYC, a large part of manhattan was created next to the world trade center in the early 80`s called battery park city which houses the World Financial Center. This is how that can be explained.

 

I believe its the same universe, just lots of things happened in 7 years. Its possible.

 

 

Also, its possible we are seeing this from the wrong view. Flip the GTA map the other way and see that we could be looking at the islands all wrong. This is how it could be:

 

Portland being alderney city would make sense as its industrial.

Staunton being Algonquin makes sense as its the middle and is the commercial area.

Dukes/Broker is Shoreside and that makes sense. Its residential, has an airport, etc.

Bohan can be explained by either that the city reclaimed land, or a chunk of shoreside broke off.

Edited October 6, 2013 by caseclosedjk