Hypothetically , what if Johnny was a more villainous protagonist ? ..

[Grievous 315]

Grand Theft Auto protagonists always gets betrayed by another character, and it can occur right off the introduction cinematic or just as the last mission begins, none of the protagonist seems to evade this trope of being backstabbed by a close friend.

 

Same occurs midway in the Lost and Damned, unsurprisingly.

 

The scene where Billy Grey gets arrested is supposedly an unexpected turning point to the story, but Rockstar deemed it fit nonetheless to have no less than Three screenshots depicting the scene:

http://media.gtanet.com/images/5656-gta-4-the-lost-and-damned.jpg

http://media.gtanet.com/images/6122-gta-iv-tlad-the-lost-and-damned.jpg

http://media.gtanet.com/images/6117-gta-iv-tlad-the-lost-and-damned.jpg

 

Adding to that a non-hidden achievement/trophy description of how Johnny takes leadership of the gang, and shown in a scene in the PS3/PC trailer of Episodes from Liberty City –where it adds a bit of humor by making a montage of Billy first saying to Johnny how he is his “brother, Always” before the eventual “You’re Dead!” while Johnny stands by the side, looking rather proudly with his hands on his hips, which i still find a bit odd, as unintentionally suggests Johnny was glad to see it happen.

 

But playing through the Lost and Damned alone does not yield any concrete answer as to what really occurred behind the scenes in Chinatown. That is until Ballad of Gay Tony unceremoniously dropped a scene showing Billy making a deal with the Triads.

It doesn’t explain just how Billy crashed his bike however, and we’re left to assume he slipped in the rain while attempting to flee –note that in the above mentionned trailer the scene is depicted under the bright sun, whereas in-game it is impossible, even with cheat codes, to remove the rain effect, which is an obligatory compound to the mission it seems-.

 

But then looking at the way Brian fiercely accuses Johnny of being the rat who has been talking to the police ... well , it left me wondering : what if , Johnny Did sold Billy out in order to be the chapter president again ? ...

 

Now i’m not saying that it is a possibility in the game itself , in that case it would have been a blatant ‘no’ , there’s nothing that points to Johnny being guilty of what happens to Billy , except maybe for backfiring Billy’s own plans ...

 

Rather i’m asking , hypothetically , imagine if Johnny Klebitz was the first Grand Theft Auto protagonist who deliberately sets out to betray others rather than being the usual type of mass murderer with a conscience and a taste for friendship that alwyas gets to eliminate people a lot worse than him.

 

Imagine if Johnny Klebitz really was a selfish drug dealer, that he orchestrated Billy’s ‘removal’, perhaps at first wanting to kill him but fails, leading to the secondary option that of letting the police to arrest him, but Billy instead decides to keep his mouth shut about the matter because ‘He’ is the one who is the ‘true brother’ of the Lost and the subsequent anti-hero of the story, though still antagonist in the face of our villain-hero. And that Billy Grey only decided to go on the witness stand once he got wind that Johnny had already ruined all that the club stood for and thought that there’s no point in having a fair fight any longer.

 

Yes, i’m asking of imagining this role-reversal essentially.

 

And what if Brian, in this alternative scenario, was Right in accusing Johnny of selling Billy out; the player has to take him down nonetheless but this time for different reasons : not just because he is the kiss-ass of the defacto crazy antagonist that is a danger to your organization , rather because he is a living threat in attempting to expose your player character’s wrong dealings. Essentially killing Brian wouldn’t have been to defend Johnny’s position as leader, but for personal reasons to ‘keep’ the crown for himself?

 

 

Imagine also Johnny with his ‘original’ costume and character mannerism.

 

When we first met Johnny in Grand Theft Auto IV, at Elizabeta’s party, he introduces himself by walking around as if he has a slight hunchback, not walking straight and bumbling about, and notably shouting “Yo!” as his first line, and with a deep grave tone of voice that truly bears no resemblance to the same Johnny depicted in Lost and Damned.

It’s even more noticeable when going through the same mission in L&D, where we are treated to newly recorded cutscenes before and after Johnny is introduced to Niko. To me, there is still this huge shift in tone of voice and body language, and it goes on for all the cutscenes that were originally featured in GTA IV.

It might not seem much, but to me, this still is a sign that Johnny was originally depicted differently, one that embodies a more ruthless and even disgusting character than the mere mass murderer with a clear perspective of his life that we have today.

 

And just look at his original character design. He really looks no better than the drug dealing street hoodlooms you shoot your way through most of the time. There’s none of that ‘sophistication’ if you might put it in his appearance in Lost and Damned , it’s not like this is just Johnny in a different costume , no , to me these are two different characters.

It reminds me how surprised i was to see Johnny’s new look during the Lost and Damned’s reveal screenshots and trailers. Not in the sence that i didn’t knew who Johnny the biker was in GTA IV , but that it didn’t looked like the same person , at all.

 

So , picture Johnny from his character model in GTA IV , and hypothetically imagine Johnny was a protagonist with more selfish goals and more destructive manneurism and behaviors , apart from becoming the first GTA protagonist that inspires more villainy than the rest of the cast , wouldn’t you agree that it may have sounded as an even more interesting potential that what we have now ? ...

 

Johnny as we know him from the Lost and Damned was no saint, but he was empathic enough that to some of us he stroke more subtle nuance than the hypocrite serbian contract killer or the self-righteous and goal-less dominican Rockstar had created alongside him, which is fine, really ... but the prospect of being an absolute no-nonsense character, without being a cliché of the ‘pure psychopath’ trope either , rather instead an unscrupulous money-maker going on about at the height of the economical breakdown ...

 

I think there may have actually been some interest in it.

What do you think?

 

I could also argue that Johnny’s ‘clone’ , John Marston from Red Dead Redemption , should have also been a more threatening and hideous character than this flawed noble thief/muderer with a heart of chivalry character that screams too loudly for his own good. But that’s another story.

 

[Anzand17 24]

That font tho,,, so hard to read. don't do that ever again please.

[Majestic81 1,409]

Yeah the font is bad, and i dont see why you're spending too much time making stuff like that. not much people will read it man.

[Peachrocks 380]

I must agree with Majestic, though of course I can see why you would spend so much time on making stuff like that, it's in your nature. I can relate obviously, wanting to design games or write for games or giving feedback or anything, that's what I want to do and a passion for detail comes with that territory but most people don't think about why something is or isn't fun.

 

The knee jerk reactions for and against Johnny's death were more than enough proof of that, most people didn't know exactly why it pissed them off so much (or why they were glad it happened) but I understand both points of view however most people wouldn't give a damn.

 

Sure I can absorb it and give you feedback on it but I'm like the only one who probably will, I've learned long before now that most people don't give a damn about this sort of thing and have just learned to deal with it and accept it. If my knowledge or strong interest for anything I'm involved in comes up, much like it did in Johnny's death then sure, I'll go into bat but making long thoughtful analysis on something without someone basically asking me to isn't going to happen because most just don't care.

 

I'm not saying to not do it, it's just almost everybody if not everybody bar me, isn't going to give a damn.

 

 

On topic. Alright first of all, I suspect the Triads backstabbed Billy. They anonymously told the law that he would be there, they seem less than pleased to be dealing with him in the first place and further it destabilizes their new enemies in The Lost so they can steal back what was stolen from them without any form of payback.

 

Brian of course runs like the coward he is when the police arrive and somehow the pair get separated.

 

It's not as though Billy had a lot of respect for Brian anyway and considering he's too busy being paranoid about Johnny setting him up (remember what I said about what Brian may have told Billy about Agent Jones) he's not going to be focused on the fact Brian ditched him but rather the fact he was 'betrayed'.

 

It's one of those things that has no 100% proof of what went on, but I think this is the best educated guess. Brian doesn't exactly answer when Johnny confronts him on what happened when he was with Billy because as usual he bolted as soon as things got hot. The big mystery is how he convinced anybody to follow him but I'm guessing they didn't have time/didn't want to develop a character for such a short period.

 

Secondly they left their options open with Johnny. They weren't quite sure where they were going to go with TLAD when creating GTA4 and to be honest, I don't sense the dramatic change in the scene other than in Johnny's appearance and even that is relatively minor, especially compared to Jim. It is at least clearly the same person. They ended up going with something that went against the usual stereotypes and I think the end product is better as a result but maybe they were considering going along with said stereotypes.

 

Thirdly, Johnny could never be written as the antagonist or betray Billy. It's the same reason a lot of us were pissed over Trevor killing Johnny so cowardly. Not only did we have to swallow some Mary Sue killing off one of our favorite characters (my own favorite), we had to play as him too. This scene would be ideal if Trevor was the villain, but he's not.

 

You want to root for the protagonist or identify with or if it's a villain protagonist, why they are doing the evil they are doing, how has the world wronged them to want to do harm to others?

 

The way you've got it written here gives minimal reason for that other than "I'm an asshole" which is great if you are playing as the guy getting screwed because it drives the plot but when you are screwing people over 'just because', it doesn't cut it. Especially not compared to what we already have.

[JetsRLove 340]

They should toughen him up more. He just kept helping Ashley and didn't just let her dye like the meth head she was. She pretty much lead him to his death. I mean if he didn't like her he wouldn't of even interfered with Trevor and her getting it on and would probably be alive if not dead anyways.

Edited July 18, 2014 by JetsRLove

[universetwisters 29,013]

They should toughen him up more. He just kept helping Ashley and didn't just let her dye like the meth head she was. She pretty much lead him to his death. I mean if he didn't like her he wouldn't of even interfered with Trevor and her getting it on and would probably be alive if not dead anyways.

 

*Die

 

 

I dunno, maybe the fact that Johnny has a soft spot helps his character and shows that he's not an empty shell compared to Luis, but then again, even Claude has more personality than Luis.

[Jeansowaty 4,144]

Johnny should be EVIL. I'd imagine a protagonist who would be a really evil motherf*cker, but not like Claude.

[B Dawg 8,899]

What if Johnny's story was more OPEN, letting the player choose what kind of person he turns into.

[One Man Standing 7]

The player choose what kind of person he turns into

THAT would've been awesome, though it was rockstar who was creating it, BUT if they would've put original GTA IV with TBOGT and TLAD as the main one, i'm sure that you could've been able to choose.

[Terrell 37]

Johnny always wanted it to be like how it was when Billy was inside. Everyone following him. As soon as Billy got out, Johnny was sly, cunning, and nearly undetectable antagonist to the untrained eye. But if you look closely, he is an antagonist. And when Billy says "Remember, follow your leader and that is me, remember." Billy gives Johnny this kind of look that shows sympathy while also implying "Don't lose your focus brother." Then Johnny just kind of shakes his head trying to make Billy look like the bad guy. He does that a lot in this story, even after he hands Billy his lost m.c vest, when Johnny turns back to walk to his bike, you can see that he's trying to hide his disgust at not being leader anymore, and that is why it is hard to justify Johnny's actions in the story. They aren't perfectly clear, but they aren't really designed to screw anyone over either. He kind of just has this hidden agenda type attitude for some reason. And I can't figure out what that reason is.

[B Dawg 8,899]

Interesting theory, but that's only because Billy lost his mind. Sure, he didn't want him in charge, but he still followed every order Billy gave to him. He was loyal, and always reliable, and he got stabbed in the back by his leader (which ended up getting himself into jail again) Johnny couldn't be an antagonist at all.

[gunziness 1,034]

Johnny should have played a side character role in V, like, not necessarily allied with Trevor, but at least neutral. Like him and the Lost having deals with weaponry with Trevor in the story, in which at the time, were small and in war with the AoD who were a much bigger and powerful gang in Blaine County/LS.

He should have appeared only in cutscenes and thats it, and maybe use Terry to sell unlockable weapons to Trevor (only) at a discounted price for example after a certain mission, and/or Clay to sell bikes to him or (why not) own the LSC shop in the countryside so Trevor can mods choppers (only) at discounted prices too. or Trevor being able back up the Lost during gang wars (which would have been nice as a side activity) for money or viceversa.

 

Theres a sh*ton of ways for R* to include the Lost in the game, but they decided to pick the most retarded and less coherent one. If things were implemented differently (and therefore better) everyone (including me) would be way more satisfied with the story, and even like Trevor MUCH more, which in some way, is the point of the game.

 

EDIT: f*ck, for a second I forgot we were talking about a completely different topic here, and ended up talking about Johnny in GTA V. My bad, still wanted to express my idea about that though lol

Edited September 9, 2014 by gunziness

[PhillBellic 24,285]

Johnny should have played a side character role in V, like, not necessarily allied with Trevor, but at least neutral. Like him and the Lost having deals with weaponry with Trevor in the story, in which at the time, were small and in war with the AoD who were a much bigger and powerful gang in Blaine County/LS.

He should have appeared only in cutscenes and thats it, and maybe use Terry to sell unlockable weapons to Trevor (only) at a discounted price for example after a certain mission, and/or Clay to sell bikes to him or (why not) own the LSC shop in the countryside so Trevor can mods choppers (only) at discounted prices too. or Trevor being able back up the Lost during gang wars (which would have been nice as a side activity) for money or viceversa.

 

Theres a sh*ton of ways for R* to include the Lost in the game, but they decided to pick the most retarded and less coherent one. If things were implemented differently (and therefore better) everyone (including me) would be way more satisfied with the story, and even like Trevor MUCH more, which in some way, is the point of the game.

 

EDIT: f*ck, for a second I forgot we were talking about a completely different topic here, and ended up talking about Johnny in GTA V. My bad, still wanted to express my idea about that though lol

There is nothing wrong with expressing your thoughts.

 

Anyway, I would have liked V's story a hell of a lot more if Johnny's death wasn't even included. The Lost could have assisted run drugs for TPE/I. Thoughts?

 

Cheers.

[universetwisters 29,013]

There is nothing wrong with expressing your thoughts.

 

Anyway, I would have liked V's story a hell of a lot more if Johnny's death wasn't even included. The Lost could have assisted run drugs for TPE/I. Thoughts?

 

Cheers.

 

I'd much rather have Johnny be an actual antagonist, maybe even with the Lost MC replacing that O'Neil gang. At least it'd be an actual consistent antagonist on Trevor's end of the story and hell, maybe there'll even be a final boss fight where Johnny & Trevor are thrown in an arena with choppers that have bazookas attached to him.

 

DEATH RACE.

[B Dawg 8,899]

DEATH RACE.

OST 08 - Johnny Walk

 

 

 

The Lost Slamvan vs Trevor's Truck, both equiped with miniguns on them! Sounds like a blast!

Edited September 19, 2014 by B Dawg

[The Deadite 25,970]

it's kinda of a necropost, but i do't give a sh*t.

i would have loved it, Johnny should have been more of a ...Hothead, i'm not asking a Trevor Phillips kinda of asshole who rapes and kils everyone on a whim, just someone more inmature, reckless and violent, more biker, but not enough to be hated and deeemed as a bad person.

[Drunken Cowboy 5,700]

As long as you have this necro'd, may we reflect upon how needlessly complex Grevious' polls were?

[Miamivicecity 37,645]

Oh man. I had to take it upon myself to change the font to something more legible.

[American Viking 1,565]

Let me put it like this, if Johnny was any different than how he was in TLaD, than Trevor Phillips did us a favor. I liked Johnny the way he was. He was a no-nonsense type with a head on his shoulders and a conscience. Don't ever even suggest changing John Marston. The man was perfect for the story RDR told, same as Niko, Johnny. If anything, making Trevor Phillips a little less villainous would've been best.

 

As for the visual change in appearance, they did the same thing with Luis. During Three Leaf Clover, he doesn't have as much muscle mass nor is he highly detailed. This make me think that the DLC were afterthoughts and not planned, or maybe Rockstar just threw the characters together for IV to be refined later.

Edited February 13, 2015 by American Alpha

[B Dawg 8,899]

 

it's kinda of a necropost, but i do't give a sh*t.

i would have loved it, Johnny should have been more of a ...Hothead, i'm not asking a Trevor Phillips kinda of asshole who rapes and kils everyone on a whim, just someone more inmature, reckless and violent, more biker, but not enough to be hated and deeemed as a bad person.

 

Not enough of a hothead for you HUH!? HOW ABOUT NOW!?

 

Johnny had no other opportunities for that due to all the sh*t The Lost has been going through.

[J Cobra 452]

He technically was.

[PhillBellic 24,285]

He has, as demonstrated above had his villainous moments.

[SuperGTFan 2,198]

If he had become one of the antagonists in the third way , the 3 decisions for Clinton would have been much more difficult , because in each ending one protagonist is going to die , you'll either kill Philips , or Townley , or Klepitz .

Edited April 28, 2015 by SuperGTFan

[gunziness 1,034]

Kind of offtopic here, but after playing Mr Philips

I noticed you can actually let Clay and Terry survive the mission (thing that I of course did).

Now in Friends reunited, you can see Johnnys coffin in the back of a Duneloader, but I couldnt see Terrys and Clays, are they supossed to be there aswell?

 

Edited May 4, 2015 by gunziness

[daliakiller 598]

Kind of offtopic here, but after playing Mr Philips

I noticed you can actually let Clay and Terry survive the mission (thing that I of course did).

Now in Friends reunited, you can see Johnnys coffin in the back of a Duneloader, but I couldnt see Terrys and Clays, are they supossed to be there aswell?

 

Weazel news confirms their deaths killing them or not.

[thesnowyguitar 57]

For me this is kind of a difficult topic to give a clear answer to. I loved every minute of TLaD (except the mission where you had to steal the prison bus, I had a lot of trouble with that mission it was kind of a pain). For me, Johnny was a very delicate character in how they developed his personality. He was struggling with a lot of stuff with his personal life (like Ashley) while trying to hold his obligations to The Lost and to try to get them on the right track. Sure, Johnny was a member of an outlaw 1%er motorcycle gang and he killed a lot of people and whatnot, but I always got a vibe from him that he wasn't 100% evil, if that sort of makes sense. I'd kind of compare him to Michael Corleone from The Godfather I, II, and III. Yeah, he killed, and ordered people to be killed, was a Mafia boss, etc, but he *SPOILERS FOR THE GODFATHER* honestly tried to legitimatize the Corleone Family, and in The Godfather Part III when *GODFATHER SPOILERS* Michael breaks down to the priest about the things he had done in his life, it showed that he still was human and had morals, etc. I kind of got a vibe like this from Johnny, like he wasn't purely evil and that he didn't believe in some of the things he was doing, but did them anyway. Like a feeling that while he was doing the things he did, there was always something pulling at him, like he was considering if the things he was doing were the right thing, but he does them for his club. So to me, making Johnny a completely villainous protagonist kind of just destroys this whole thing about him trying to do the right thing and just ruins his character (but, probably making him even more bad-ass than he already is). Like if he was totally villainous, he would have no compassion for others or consider the things he's doing. And The Lost would most likely take a turn for the worst under his rule if he was totally villainous. I feel like R* did a good job of developing the characters in TLaD, and I enjoyed how they developed Billy Grey's *TLAD SPOILERS* downward spiral as he realized he was losing control of his MC.

[Guru Fijis 0]

The illusion that he was a bad guy came from him being on steroids, that's why he is more aggressive in tbogt and tlad, he is heavier and has trouble carrying his weight too, and has this big man image. He f*cking looks like a villan though

[iiCriminnaaL 49 434]

I've always wanted a protagonist that is kinda similar to what's mentioned in this thread. That would be interesting to see how things work from the other side.

 

On 10/2/2013 at 1:40 AM, Grievous said:

Imagine also Johnny with his ‘original’ costume and character mannerism.

 

When we first met Johnny in Grand Theft Auto IV, at Elizabeta’s party, he introduces himself by walking around as if he has a slight hunchback, not walking straight and bumbling about, and notably shouting “Yo!” as his first line, and with a deep grave tone of voice that truly bears no resemblance to the same Johnny depicted in Lost and Damned.

It’s even more noticeable when going through the same mission in L&D, where we are treated to newly recorded cutscenes before and after Johnny is introduced to Niko. To me, there is still this huge shift in tone of voice and body language, and it goes on for all the cutscenes that were originally featured in GTA IV.

It might not seem much, but to me, this still is a sign that Johnny was originally depicted differently, one that embodies a more ruthless and even disgusting character than the mere mass murderer with a clear perspective of his life that we have today.

 

And just look at his original character design. He really looks no better than the drug dealing street hoodlooms you shoot your way through most of the time. There’s none of that ‘sophistication’ if you might put it in his appearance in Lost and Damned , it’s not like this is just Johnny in a different costume , no , to me these are two different characters.

It reminds me how surprised i was to see Johnny’s new look during the Lost and Damned’s reveal screenshots and trailers. Not in the sence that i didn’t knew who Johnny the biker was in GTA IV , but that it didn’t looked like the same person , at all.

Even though Johnny isn't written the way you mentioned, he doesn't seem to be changed compared to how he was in standard IV. Although, I believe they didn't have to fade the tattoos out. If someone has been changed in EFLC compared to how he was in IV, I believe that would be Luis, not Johnny 😛; he had a higher level of voice acting back in IV, compared to he was acted in TBOGT, which led me to think that he would've been more of a ruthless drug dealer than a lifeless nightclub bouncer.

 

Anyway, the moment when Johnny got in and yelled "HEY!" during the second mission is so similar to how he yelled "YO!" later in Liz Torres' apartment - 0:13:

 

He got his moments: the encounter with Pretty Boy, beating up a guard on Algonquin bridge and another cop during the bus hijack, and kidnapping Roman. Also, what's more: leading Boccino to believe that he's on his side, while in reality, he was planning to steal the diamond's money ever since Ray mentioned them (the diamonds). Now that's a trait that normally can be expected from an antagonist. He is already one of the most villainous protagonists, even though he's still loyal to The Lost MC.

 

After all, what makes him different from Billy is the fact that he doesn't want to do anything unnecessary. For example: he hurt Pretty Boy enough to "extract" the information he wanted, but Billy expanded on it by throwing the hammer on Pretty Boy's face.

 

I didn't want to bump an old topic. But damn, interesting topics are often abandoned, I realized that I'm three years late 😛

Edited December 19, 2018 by iiCriminnaaL 49