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Would you approve of This extended edition of The Lost and Damned ? ..

Now that you've gone through this outrageously gigantic fanfiction ...  

48 members have voted

  1. 1. Do you consider this a worthy component to The Lost and Damned ? ...

    • "Oh hell yes!" I salute to thee and name you chapter president!
    • "Hey I thought I told you to stay out of this forum?!" *pulls out sawn off*
    • *crushed by wall of text*
    • Now that I've read it all, I think I deserve a medal! *receives applause*
    • "Whoa ... that's heavy, man." *looks impressed, if not terrified*
    • Well ... it did took our minds off of recent things ... Greatly ...
    • There's only a few things I don't agree with *list them*
    • There's only a few things I actually appreciated *list them*
    • I think this was not on the same length as the game's atmosphere/intention *explain*
    • Most of those extended points were overblown, here's how I would have done it *propose*
    • There are actually other plot points that needs to be addressed/extended *propose*
    • But I thought The Lost and Damned was already as complete and satisfying enough as it is?
    • The hell are you all waiting for? let's all march to Rockstar and demand our Extended edition!
    • What? you mean this isn't official? well what was the point making us drooling all over in the first place!?
    • The new gameplay sequences sounds great!
    • The new gameplay sequences would bore me out!
    • How long is this poll anyway?
    • You should have re-wrote the whole game as well! perhaps even sequel?
    • So ... are all suppose to contribute and write walls of text out of our ideas? to get Rockstar's attention or something?
    • "... ... It's a long long way to tipperary, but my heart's right there!"

Recommended Posts


Brothers! Why the long faces!
In these perilous times it is more important than ever that you follow your leader, and that, is not me, but i'll point you towards the righteous path nonetheless.


This here , is the Lost and Damned's forum , our topics of discussion should be -apart from businesses involving our exterior outpost in Los Santos- about our very own chapter here ! ...


Here we'll discuss on the possibility to improve the actual story of "The Lost and Damned". Whether it be missed opportunities, untouched potentials, unclear or unresolved events needed to be addressed, anything that hindered our fullest appreciations to the Lost and Damned , BUT , only in its story development.
Not actual missing additional gameplay features, but on the actual plot progression of this tale through story missions; what was unsaid? what lacked in dramatic magnitude? what could have been added to Johnny's characteristic? which situations would have benefited for his, or others, to shine better and establish more profound drama?


I propose here below a potential manner to enhance the game's length and fulfill its dramatic impact by adding mission that are meant fill the gaps left in between the low numbered story missions, of which are still kept. Tackling subjects that are either barely mentioned or simply came and went before it manages to make a lasting effect on the player.


A quick run down on new additions would be as such:


First Act , 20 missions instead of 11 :
4 additional missions that deals with Billy's AoD war, and Johnny's schism with Billy
1 new mission centered around Terry's meth lab, and Johnny's open refusal to take meths again
3 new mission centered around Johnny, a more intimate side, and 'calmer' missions that don't always go for instant killing
1 new mission centered around the Broker Chapter of the Lost, where Johnny goes to inquire about Jason's death


Second Act , 20 missions instead of 11 :
2 additional missions regarding Brian's war, with a larger scale of the impact the civil war lead
3 new missions that centers again around Johnny's state of mind, and subsequently Ashley
2 new missions that deals with Johnny finishing the AoD business, along with Uptown Riders' assistance
2 new missions that tackles the aftermath of Jim's death and its profound impact on Johnny


The more prolonged wall of texts begins , right here ...


Act I ...


The four new missions on the AoD war:


1- Before "It's War" and right after "Angels in America", the Angels lure the Lost into a trap where road spikes blows up the Lost's bike tires, forcing the brothers to board a 'cage' and escape as Billy provides frantic drive bys and yells at Johnny for being a poor driver. The more time the player takes to drive back to the clubhouse, the more potential deaths in innocent pedestrian will happen thanks to Billy's careless shooting when supposedly aimed at chasing AoDs, leading to succeeding undesired wanted stars.


Inspired from a short scene in L&D's Second Trailer where we see the brothers sitting tight in a small car.


The purpose of this scene is to exemplify Billy's ruthlessness and discard to collateral damage, as well as pointing out players on their role of 'bikers', not cage drivers. As the third level of the game this also serves as part of the tutorial segments.


2- After "Action/Reaction", AoD attempts to blow up the Lost clubhouse in retaliation but fails, leading to a chase that leads to the Alderney Industrial sites and Oil refineries. Brian is given a grenade launcher this time after Billy saw Johnny's retention in using it in "Action/Reaction", but Brian goes absolutely careless with it and not only nearly kills Johnny but does structural damages to the site. Johnny is forced to quickly dodge and run while killing hostile AoD bikers, and climbing around the facilities until finally jumping off to safety.


Inspired from a short scene in L&D's Meet Johnny Trailer where parts of abandoned warehouse seems crumbling behind Johnny, the structural damage of which is actually present in-game, making it seem like an actual cut mission.


The purpose of this scene is to fuel the player with needs of disliking Brian, not just because he acted as Billy's loyal kiss-ass, but because Brian does have animosity and stupidity to behold vis-a-vis Johnny.


3- Wishing to avoid further catastrophes, and out of some sense of honor, Johnny decides to give an advice to the same AoD lieutenant he had orchestrated the Peace Time deal when Billy was incarcerated , warning him to leave town as soon as possible because Billy is still in his high of gangland violence. To do so Johnny infiltrates one of the remaining AoD hideouts located by the river, giving a view on Algonquin. Johnny infiltrates by wearing a AoD jacket he got from a biker he knocked out and placed in the trunk of a car. It's more or less of a stealth mission as you walk into the hangout site and avoiding direct contact with other bikers in fear of being potentially recognized. The AoD lieutenant and Johnny had a brief talk, where the AoD lieutenant laughing off at Johnny's incapability to keep his conscience clean and sneaking around here to try to make amends. Billy ends up arriving with more Lost Brothers, to which the AoD lieutenant ironically points to Johnny that he'll have to switch jacket now that the "devil is watching". A brief shootout occurs and in the end all AoDs are killed except for the lieutenant who lies wounded and crawling. Billy asks Johnny to personally pull the trigger to finish it. Johnny points his gun at the crawling man while Billy continues to shout at Johnny to shoot. Johnny ends up openly disobeying Billy for the first time, refusing to pull the trigger, and hands the gun to Billy, asking him to do it if he's "such a big man". Billy nods, walks by Johnny and not taking the weapon, instead pulls out and lights a Molotov cocktail and throws it at the AoD lieutenant. Billy watches, undisturbed by the man being burned alive. He then tells Johnny to return to the clubhouse. Leaving Johnny off to observe the remaining scene by himself.


Inspired by these official screenshots.










Purpose of this scene is to add a human approach to the actual AoD members, as well as giving the game an actual clear moment where Johnny shows disobedience towards Billy, which will give Billy a more 'understandable' reason wanting to betray Johnny to the Triads, whereas now, in the actual game the only moment of disobedience Johnny ever shows to Billy is just mere 'words'. In fact it even doesn't go as far as to merely 'question' some of Billy's decision, but Johnny still carries out every single task Billy ordered. Which makes it all the more shallow reasoning that Billy would want to sell out Johnny. Even as intentional as it is.
Additional purpose comes in sending out an ironic echo to the moment at the end of the game when Billy orders Johnny once again to pull the trigger, although this time aimed at himself, and Johnny still uncomfortable at the idea of executions.
This mission also introduces limited 'change clothing' mechanic that fans seem to want so much, though you wouldn't be able to trigger Lost missions with the AoD jacket of course, until replay is unlocked.
Considering how often the southern parts of Alderney are left unused, it would seem beneficial from the programmer's perspective to have more missions taking place in there.


4- Returning to the clubhouse Johnny walks around, listening to other Lost brothers' conversations and looking for Billy. He finds Billy doing arm wrestling upstairs. Johnny is asked to do a match with him. The player is tasked in winning two rounds. Right before winning the second round however Billy suddenly blows a beer bottle over Johnny's head, taunting him again for being a 'jew' and only ever paying attention on the winning part and not "who you actually play with". As Johnny stumbles on the floor Billy continues to give him a few blows and kicks. The scene is still in gameplay mode however, although the player has to fight the controls to regain movement, similar to when player characters are drunk. The brawl between the two basically goes all over the clubhouse, where they also both fall down the staircases while grappling each other. Eventually the player will lose and get kicked out of the clubhouse's doorstep, thrown to the ground pavement. Billy will shout out that he knows about the AoD left in the trunk of the car and knows that Johnny had intentions to backstab the Lost brotherhood by making and scheming deals with the AoD. With the brothers around the scene in the streets and Brian cheering, Billy is about to pull the trigger on Johnny's public execution until suddenly a shot rang.
Everybody ducked to the ground, then we hear Angus mocking that he never thought he'll see the day where he will have to look Billy down instead of up.
It was Angus who fired the shot, and now he has his gun pointed at Billy. Billy begins to crack up until Angus starts lecturing on Billy and his inept power as a leader. Angus argues about the plight and cause of this brotherhood and asks if Billy's all out war against the AoD is truly something to be proud of. Angus reminds the brotherhood of who Johnny is, and how preposterous it is to believe he would have planned to abandon the Lost Chapter. Angus speaks about the good old days, which brought even Billy to silence, although he still looks discontent with the whole ordeal. Angus taunts at Billy as to why he doesn't just simply shoot a 'guy on a wheelchair', arguing that taking out his legs is only leaving the job half finished. Billy of course does nothing, and even feigns apologies by pulling Johnny back up, saying it was mere "testing the strength of loyalty", and calling it settled, reminding that nevertheless they still have the heroin to sell, and hopefully, quiet drugs and arms trade is all that they'll ever look out for in the near future. But naturally Billy plans to have Johnny dead in other fashion, by having him simply killed in a 'deal gone bad', cue to dealings with the Triad.


Purpose of this scene is a continuation to the above point regarding Billy's betrayal, as Billy lost his opportunity to publicly ###### and gain the club's sympathy on his side. Thus needing to find exterior involvement. But more importantly it is to give Angus a big scene , of course ! ...
It was in my opinion that a confrontation between him and Billy was sorely missing in the Lost and Damned , hence my fan fiction tribute here ...


The new mission with Terry's meth lab:


- Taking place after Johnny finds the time to help Jim steal the bikes from the AoD and facing the bent cops, this mission will serve aside from providing a one-on-one moment with Terry on reminding that Johnny has done taking drugs despite his "drug-addled exterior". He does not mind dealing drugs to help the cause of the Lost however. Helping Terry driving the inconspicuous trailer van around town and watching by exchanges with customers. But of course for one reason or another this mission goes awry at some point, forcing the two to leave the mobile meth lab in a hurry, the explosion causing a release of drug vapor in the neighborhood, providing unique humorous gameplay sequence.


Inspired from an online news report within GTA IV regarding a mobile meth lab explosion, and the fact that the LCPD record indicated that Terry is suspected from owning such lab. Also inspired from a revelation in GTAV, and thus finding the need to place at least one ironic echo to the 'taking meth' situation.


The three new passive missions centered around Johnny, which are progressively unlocked as the player goes through the other missions:


1- Taking place relatively early in the game, this new mission sees Johnny observing a group of 'wanna-be' hardcore bikers circling around town. Remarking how young they look Johnny decides to frighten them away from this lifestyle that is in apparent not meant for them, and to show and teach what a supposedly 'real' outlaw biker look like.

Ideally the purpose here is to bring a potential observation in Johnny's own lost youth by displaying the Liberty City youngsters as modern counterparts. It also serves as to give the new melee weapon, the pool cue, at least one opportunity to have it actually being used.


2- Unlocked in the middle of the AoD war and Before Johnny saves Ashley in the drug den. A scene where Johnny is at the club house, tired of all the killings and chases of the past few days, decides to have finally a good strong drink, and potentially even have a few smoke. Johnny converses with the Lost brothers found idling in the clubhouse before heading to the 'living room". Sitting on the couch, Johnny begins to fall asleep and reminisces on younger days, when he, Billy, and the gang were still in their 'debut', and would do nothing but ride around the city. The sequence is playable for a while. Back in the present Johnny then decides to get up and call Ashley, and suggest they meet up for a bit of night ride. As Johnny exits the clubhouse, the player is not only greeted with a cloud-clear night sky, but the image looks ... different, as if the grainy filter has been removed. Ashley rides on the back of Johnny and then begin their aimless, directional route around the city, until they approach a highway and Ashley suggests they move onward the highway, as they ride on, the highway seems to be somehow stretching endlessly forward, and slowly rising, higher, towards the skies. Johnny had of course never left the clubhouse, and was just dreaming vividly under the influence of the drinks and/or drugs. He shakes his head, regretfully, and gets up.


Although Ashley's limited appearances in Lost and Damned were poignant and memorable, its limited disposition was also due to the game's brief length, so if the length is to be increased, so should her involvement, or else it would just appear as a heavily underused character, especially one that has importance over Johnny's psyche.


3- After the AoD war segment, a scene taking place on the Alderney beach, where Johnny and his close friends decides to spend an afternoon and evening out on the beach just north of where they live. With Terry driving his van to carry Angus in the back. Ashley may potentially join if the player so chooses. It serves as an extended 'friends hangout' mode, but rather than the discussions between friends that centers around topics of the character's individual lives and thoughts that are exterior to the plot, in this sequence they speak their mind about the actual situation with Billy's leadership and decisions, and the potential last moments of their 'outdated' lifestyle as they observe the sun setting in the distance. The friends basically have few laughs to conclude the night, a few drinks, and basically fooling around. If Ashley is around she and Johnny would occasionally display genuine laughs, almost like a couple of kids as Angus remarks, although Johnny is quick to remind himself of Ashley's poor mental and physical health whenever she starts coughing violently after laughing too much.


Purpose here is to take some serious time-off from the endless violence, and to bring a closer look from the character's perspective onto their situation at hand, rather than just some emails or phone calls, an actual physical dramatic presence.


The new mission introducing the Lost Broker Chapter:


- Set after Johnny's hesitation regarding Jason's killer during Billy's turnabout in "Action/Reaction", Johnny decides to set off on his own to Broker, since it was there that Jason was last spotted along with several Lost Broker members. Jim however caught wind of Johnny's intentions and decides to accompany him, just in case. The two arrives at the Broker clubhouse, located by the docks at west Broker, where we are introduced to their chapter president, whose behavior and mannerism recalls both that of Johnny and Billy's. The Broker president however dislikes Johnny at first sight, based on the assumption of rumors he heard regarding "the Alderney trash boys". The Broker president presents himself as more focused on the decade old lifestyle presented by the 'original' Lost members founded during the post-Vietnam. He observes with cynicism on how Johnny comes only to find the killer, as "to shed more blood" rather than even consider taking back Jason's body, which they've been keeping.
This is a sour point considering that the "Lost" are called as such precisely as reference to the many lives who were taken during the Vietnam war, a fact that can be found in the in-game website lore. Johnny is surprised to hear this, never even thinking that the Broker Chapter would care to harbor the body of a faction they lack contact with. But the Broker president reminds that they are all brothers nonetheless, and he says so in a manner that recalls the exact words said by Billy during the game's introductory mission, but this time it is pronounced with more genuine sincerity. Johnny agrees to take Jason's body home, which is already cared for in a coffin. Johnny drives the van/hearse while the Broker president and another Broker brother ride alongside the van, with Jim riding at the front clearing the way for the hearse, the Broker president himself riding on Johnny's Hexer -which Johnny could not ride since he personally wanted to drive the hearse home, feeling it felt more reasonable and wouldn't need to trouble the Broker chapter furthermore. A fact to which the Broker president appreciates and displays a solemn smile for the first time.
During the ride back to Alderny the Broker president would make a couple of exchanges with Johnny, the first regarding Johnny's bike, which he comments as a "strong ride", Johnny replies that all compliment should be given to its original creator Angus, now stuck on a wheelchair. The Broker president will reveal that he knows Angus well, and comments that he never quite knew why Angus bothered staying with the Alderney chump in the first place, calling the group as a whole as "abusive exploiters of the land of liberty while not daring to even step foot inside it", a double entendre comment referring to the fact that Alderney is technically 'not' part of the state of Liberty City, and the fact that the Alderney chapter is infamous for creating senseless gang violence, whereas the Lost weren't originally meant to shield violent rampaging lunatics, arguing that it meant something 'more'. The two would also speak about Jason's demise, while Johnny points out the fact that Billy blames it entirely on the AoD. Broker president guesses correctly that Johnny doesn't believe in it, and pointing out that AoD rarely travels to Broker anyway. Finally, depending on how far the player has progressed through the AoD war, the two will have different conversations to reflect the situation at stake, and if AoD war segment has been completed, then Broker president will know about Angus' above mentioned act in saving Johnny's life. After arriving at the Alderney clubhouse, the Broker president departs on good terms with Johnny, refusing to enter the house just yet, but glad that a sign of 'civilized' being as finally shown itself from the 'Alderny swamp land', despite the circumstances. Before riding off however, the Broker president takes a glance at the clubhouse's building, and although he doesn't say anything, there's a look on his face that evokes disappointment, which is a foreshadow to the eventual burn down of the mausoleum.


Purpose of this mission is to obviously introduce the Broker chapter, otherwise their sudden appearance during the diamond theft mission was a notable 'complete surprise' moment to me. The Broker chapter president is the only new long-lasting character I've created, and I felt that basing his personality on a 'forgotten' ethos about the original Lost brotherhood served as a standing powerful figure on its own, not just to create strict difference and opposition to other characters. Although he can also advertently represent the leader that Billy never will be, and the leader that Johnny would seek to aspire to be, though that too will fail, both because of Johnny's poor luck as club president, and the fact that the Broker president may not be as perfect as Johnny expects.
I've also decided not to openly 'fixated' this new character I've created with an actual name, although this might prove to be quite redundant because he will always be addressed as 'Broker president', which towards the end of this wall of text, may prove to be quite repetitive.
His age is also left out of precision, as I wish to keep this as an 'ambiguous' part vis a vis his personality.

Edited by Grievous

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Act II ...


The two new missions focusing on the Lost Civil War:


1- Taking place before Brian is confronted in his derelict safehouse, Brian sought to propagate the news that Johnny sold Billy out to the Broker Lost chapter, but when the Broker president stands by Johnny's side by replying to Brian that if it is indeed the case that Johnny sold Billy out then he should "be hailed as an inspiration to all honest public servants", Brian decides to retaliate by staging an attack between remnants of the AoDs and the Broker chapter, to which Johnny felt compelled to intervene and assist The Lost Broker chapter, as he 'owes' them for their unwilling participation into the Alderney chapter civil war. The AoD planned to blow up the entire area with a fully loaded gasoline truck. Johnny then has to drive the truck away from the area and dump it into the river, but when cops begin approaching the scene and blocking the area, Johnny is forced to use the truck to storm through barricades of police vehicles and find a new alternate route to place the truck beyond harm's reach. Also to deviate the police's attention from the Broker clubhouse, to avoid police 'examine' the area and recover the Broker chapter's illegal weapon arsenal. The fuel truck, highly volatile as it is, compels Johnny to drive carefully, similar to one of the earlier missions in GTAIV where Niko is tasked with driving a truck full of explosives, although this time the truck is under pursuit. Eventually Johnny made full throttle on the edge of one of the bridges that leads to Algonquin and had the truck plummet into the river below. Johnny survives and swims to shore where friendly Lost brothers come to greet him. When Jim asked as to why he simply didn't just let the truck blow up in front of the LCPD, Johnny, still catching his breath after all the swimming he had done, was left dumbfounded by the idea that simply did not crossed his mind, and begins to laugh, perhaps laughing nervously, but soon accompanied by the laughs of his brothers.


Inspired by a scene in the second L&D trailer where Johnny is seen driving a burning fuel truck through the traffic.


Purpose of the scene serves to show the beginning of closer ties made with the Broker Chapter, which would then lead to the natural agreement of leading the full scale assault during the diamond heist, and consequently the failure of which will make the Broker chapter regret having sided with Johnny.


2- Taking place before working with Elizabeta again but after Brian has been confronted in his safehouse. It has been revealed that before going into hiding Brian had also provoked the attention of various gangs throughout the city, gangs such as the Albanian and Russian mob and Jamaican Posse that the Lost had only encountered during gang wars. The result is that multiple attacks against Lost brothers have sparked all over town, and Johnny can only save so few since he can't make it in time at every place where brothers are ambushed. Johnny can decide whether to send his close friends Jim Terry and Clay to each help assist in a individual ambush point -thus assuring more timely intervention but also lesser chance at success- or to stick with Johnny and arrive to each ambush point together -creating greater chance at saving the brothers, but saving less overall- ... Johnny can also decisively choose to rescue either the more 'battle hardened' brothers, or leave them in favor of the less experienced ones since the tougher bikers may prove to survive and delay the time needed for assistance. Saving the less experienced bikers first will earn their absolute loyalty, whereas saving the battle hardened bikers first will ensure their chances at being even more battle efficient, but gain so much confidence to their survival capabilities that they may not necessarily return the favor and always come to your aid when required. Not all brothers are caught up in open street firefight , some are trapped in apartments or forced to flee into the subway , which requires extensive research and discretion to successfully save the bikers are escape without attracting insurmountable odds against rival gangsters. This is basically a long Gang War on overdrive. Johnny can also ask assistance from the Broker chapter, but only if certain requirements are met regarding Johnny's interaction with the Broker chapter: in the mission above for example when he intervenes to save the Broker clubhouse, if Johnny took too much time arriving on the scene, or fought poorly, or inadvertently lead the police to the clubhouse and had the weapons confiscated, then Broker president would prove hesitant in wanting to risk more of his troops or simply not be able to afford at all at the moment. Another interaction with the Broker chapter comes in another mission, which would be detailed below.


The part where Johnny would have to venture into subways to rescue hunted brothers is inspired from this official screenshot, which rings a hallow tone to it considering it is the same subway entrance Jim took when fleeing from Niko Bellic. In fact I even originally thought that Johnny would be 'chasing' after Niko during the Lost and Damned's rendition, but this scene did not came to be. So the existence of this official screenshot showing Johnny in a suicidal mood still carries an oddness to it.




Purpose of the mission is to deliver the final blow on the scale of the civil war's impact had on the Alderney Chapter. With barely a third of the gang left standing as it is, it reinforces to the idea that Johnny would be accompanied by the Broker chapter for the diamond heist. It also suggests that whatever Johnny's next directives may be, as the chapter leader, it will definitively be first and foremost for the absolute benefit to the brotherhood, regardless of the odds and costs. This would explain Johnny's full intention in working both with Elizabeta and the Uptown Riders during their drug runs against gangs and LCPD. As well as fueling Johnny's need to acquire huge wealth in short time, culminating to his sudden greed in stealing from mobster Ray Boccino.


This mission could also bring a note of difference regarding Brian's stranger quest: if Brian was spared, and that this mission has been completed before doing Brian's stranger quest, starting the stranger quest would show Johnny instantly killing Brian with a sawn off shotgun. First shot knocks Brian down wounded and bleeding, Brian gasps at his wounds before looking at Johnny, and when attempting to say something that sounded like pleading, Johnny promptly respond with a big "What?" and pressing the trigger for the second shot.


The three new missions revolving around Johnny's psyche again :


1- An Intermission. Featuring beer drinking bikers. There was only one scene in the game where the bikers are shown having a drink while sitting on their motorcycles, and that was in remembrance to Jason. Somehow I thought it would have made for an interesting moment to Johnny having a drink with someone by the docks while observing the Algonquin skyscrapers, and debating about the choices they made that lead them to this particular lifestyle. The conversation may perhaps bare similarities with Johnny's second discussion with Leavis, the maître d' at Stubbs' gentlemen club. This isn't like a hanging out with friends sequence and getting drunk at the local bar, not just riding on the road either. But sitting on a motorcycle in the outdoors, and talking about how do they feel on fitting in on society. To make matters slightly more interesting from a gameplay perspective, Johnny can choose one of the four following characters he wishes to share this quiet moment with: Jim, Angus-in which
case Johnny will have to drive a car-, the Broker chapter president, or interestingly enough, Stubbs. The resulting scene with each of these characters results in different dialogues, topic discussions, and potential gameplay bonus; but none is more 'advantageous' than the other per-se, all four choices are valid for repeated playthroughs incentives:
Having a drink with Jim takes place near the docks east of Alderney, topic includes Johnny's presidency, theories on what truly happened the day Billy was arrested by the cops, and Johnny persuading Jim to leave this outlaw life before it is too late, Jim will finally confide to Johnny that the thought of leaving the gang did crossed his mind several times and ask for apology, to which Johnny gives him a brief yet heartfelt hug. Jim asks why don't Johnny do the same and just quit, Johnny however affirms that he has nowhere to go except for the Alderney Lost chapter, all that he has ever lived by and believed in. Regardless of whether he is the leader of the gang or not, he simply has nowhere else to find comfort, no matter how perverse it may seem. Gameplay bonus for choosing to speak with Jim offers a short but potentially memorable sequence towards the end of the game.
Taking Angus out will lead the two to Middle Park, where they find a bench to sit on. Johnny will mention about the Broker president and his acquaintance with Angus, Angus however seems to recall little to no merit on the character of the Broker president, finding him to be deep down a great manipulator for his personal gains. Johnny is surprised at Angus' point of view, Angus argues that it makes sense Johnny doesn't necessarily see the wrong doings in him in similar ways that many followed Billy blindly, and then same went for Brian, therefor the Broker president will naturally have followers that suits him as well. This causes Johnny to re-evaluate on the worth of his position as chapter president, but Angus says it is useless to have doubts about it. Johnny laughs, finding that Angus too is following Johnny 'blindly', and that don't prove John to be the better man. The two also discuss on the eventual enterprise the Lost will need to take, Angus suggest that they ditch Liberty City and open a garage somewhere else where bike enthusiast could drop by and not carry a death machine mentality, but Johnny doesn't wish to leave Liberty City, even if it seems impossible to find a good reason to stay either. Gameplay bonus comes in the form of a cautious worth of distrust towards the Broker chapter, which may potentially come in handy near the end of the game.
Meeting the Broker president by the harbors in west Broker, not far from the Broker chapter clubhouse, leads to topics regarding Johnny's past and his initial decision in wanting to be in the Lost, and why having stick to it decades on. In this sequence Johnny and the Broker president had the most drinks compared to the other companion options. The Broker president will eventually confide to Johnny that a sudden death in the coming days is but the best thing he wish could happen to him and to all of the Broker chapter. Arguing that he prefers to be dead while able to ride his bike than to wait until he needs assistance just to be able to reach the restroom. He will also admit that the reason why they took care to retrieve Jason's body is because he 'envies' these young and short lives, suggesting that the origin of the name the "Lost" isn't as much an homage to the fallen ones in Vietnam as it is a deep wish from those who came back from the war and regretted that they simply didn't meet their ends when they could have. It is kept ambiguous as to whether the Broker president was one of the 'original' Lost members or simply a man who willingly adhered to a lifestyle that is essentially a death seeking process. Johnny uses these insights to put new perspective onto BIlly's leadership, as well as to his own intentions with the Lost. Gameplay bonus comes from gaining assistance from the Broker president during the civil war aftermath siege depicted on the previous mission. Even if said mission has already been completed there's still another bonus assistance that will present itself towards the end of the game.
Choosing to 'hang out' with Stubbs will first begin through a phone conversation where Stubbs will be absolutely surprised by the proposition, along with Johnny explaining that he himself is trying to figure out what could have possibly came over his mind in asking his blackmailer out for a drink. Stubbs says it's nonsense to be labeled as a blackmailer, and proceed to invite Johnny straight away, to the top floor of the gentleman's club, this is where the meeting place contrasts with the others that took place on street levels, now being much higher above. Johnny will comment on not having the habit of viewing the city from such angle, Stubbs will remind Johnny that he was always welcome to the ivory tower anyway. Johnny asks if there's any catch to the generosity, to which leads Stubbs to pose a series of rhetorical question to Johnny, essentially asking if Johnny finds any 'meaning' to his struggle in refusing to be part of this society that he can't escape. Johnny boldly claims that the struggle itself is meaningful, but Stubbs find it hard to believe. Stubbs believes that Johnny isn't living by a code, but by a primal urge, that of chaos, but succeeded in convincing himself so well that it is all part of a bigger and noble plan. Johnny doesn't comment on the matter other than to dismiss Stubbs' entire reasoning as being way too poetic and unrealistic, to which Stubbs laughs, saying that precisely so Johnny is not being realistic, otherwise, not only wouldn't he be pulling strings to keep police task forces at bay from invading Johnny's clubhouse, nor would Johnny ever felt the need to stay in town when he could easily be living the high life elsewhere. Stubbs' point is to show that Johnny has intentionally decided to feel oppressed by the world around him, and that the lack of conformity is but a matter of choice. Nothing so doomed about it. Johnny however thanks for Stubbs' enlightenment, but not in the way of Stubbs' argument, rather through the fact that looking at Stubbs just reminds Johnny himself why he is and does the things he does. The two said their goodbyes on good terms nonetheless. Gameplay bonus comes from the aftermath of this conversation with Stubbs, where Johnny gained the wish to open his locker in the clubhouse and retrieve his 'old' jacket, giving player an additional outfit. This is a consequence of Stubbs' repeated comment on Johnny's hygiene, but more importantly, Johnny's older jacket carries a more evident "drug-addled" outlook than his main black leather jacket, and this will mash into the scenery more effectively in the ensuing missions, where Johnny operates kidnapping and drug smuggling for the Bohan coke lord.


Purpose of these conversations are to act as the game's 'intermission' sequence so to say. Each carrying a depressing tone as much as the other, but all intentionally made as such to give pause and reflection as to what has transpired at his point. They act as a conclusion to the blood storm of the affairs with Billy and Brian, and preceding the continuing downfall of the Lost. It's a shift from the brothers who had their beach night hang out to that of carrying an immense responsibility in finding the appropriate way to survive in this city.


2- The next passive mission is set after the dealings with Elizabeta has concluded and after Johnny kidnapped Roman to pay off Ashley's debt, but before Johnny gets to work with Ray Boccino. After the toll of the kidnapping, Johnny wishes to take his mind off on things. Johnny calls for Clay, thinking that the livelier of the bunch may perhaps help him set his mood straight. Clay however finds Johnny to be in such a depressive state it is beyond his help. Johnny has an idea to ease his conscience, but he has to do it alone. But first to avoid making Clay wasting his time Johnny decides to introduce him to Malc. Jokingly introducing Clay as the living proof the Lost tolerates 'all' kinds of degenerates. Malc and Clay gets along and head for a strip club. Johnny promise he'll join later but first decides to pull one more insane act: visit Billy at the penitentiary.
Johnny is surprised to find out that Billy had put him on the visitor's list. Johnny immediately notices that Billy has pull out some weight. Billy asks what does Johnny expects to obtain, Johnny outright shows lack of confidence and doesn't know how to deviate the subject. Billy chuckles at the sight of the frail Johnny and suggested that Johnny will do just fine, regardless of what situation he'll end up facing. Johnny didn't take too kindly at BIlly's tone and asked to know what he meant by what he just said. But Billy insist there was no ill intentions, and isn't in the mood for talking anymore. Johnny leaves the penitentiary unsatisfied and receives a call from Malc asking him to join up in the gentleman's club. Johnny however declines and heads somewhere else instead; he goes to see Ashley.
Before he can say anything however Johnny finds Ashley unconscious at her home. With her derelict lifestyle, and the stress of the visiting Russian mobsters, it just wasn't clear whether she is going through an overdose or was willingly committing suicide. Johnny carries her in his arms and rushes towards the hospital in front of the street.


Purpose of the mission is to once again portray a calm before the storm. The utility in showing Billy again is due to the now increased length in the story, thus provoking a need to at least show him once more long before the final execution, in fear of the character's presence and importance be left forgotten. Having Malc and Clay meet up just seemed like the beginning of an unusual experimentation where Lost and Uptown Riders get to know each other better. With the new ties between the two comes from their evident bike enthusiasm, and potentially giving a new light to this other 'side' of the biker tropes, about people who simply enjoy motorcycles. As well as better camaraderie in order to later face the common enemy, the Angels of Death, when they make their last push to secure their Algonquin and Bohan territories.


3- Starting after the completion of a mission involving the AoD and a tow truck, which will be detailed below, Johnny goes to see Ashley at the center Alderney hospital. Ashley is unrepentantly glad to see her 'white knight', knowing that he did came to rescue her for good reasons. Johnny says however that when he came to see her the other night was because he only had plans to say that despite their off-relationship and her continuous tendency in getting into trouble, they should remain friends nonetheless if nothing else. Ashley feels confused and lost, and Johnny is incapable of finding anything more to say. Ashley appears as if she wants to make a scene, but doesn't. It's a difficult sequence to digest as the only prominent audible sounds comes from the hospital equipment and ambient noises. The two are ostensibly disappointed in the fact that none is really getting as much of the rollin' good times as they thought they could have. Gameplay resumes in a different manner, as Johnny is still sitting by the side of Ashley's bed, but will only get up if the player presses a button to do so. As Johnny proceeds down the hallways to exit the hospital however he spots at the end of the hallway AoD members walking in posse, with flowers in hand, similar to what their supposed 'new public image campaign' the in-game news has mentioned. Johnny however isn't fooled. Close quarter fight in the tight hospital hallway begins. The AoD death squad came to take both Johnny and Ashley out. Johnny curses them for even daring to pull out a stunt like this in a hospital, the AoDs respond that it is only natural considering just how much the Lost have been pushing 'them' to the brink of their limits. Johnny and the AoDs agree to keep on disagreeing and exchange blows and gun shots. The panic ensues all around the hospital. The AoDs doesn't seem to be in retreat, rather they just keep on coming. Johnny has no choice but to retreat back to Ashley's room and barricade the place. Johnny calls to his brothers for back-up. Ashley gets off her bed and feebly attempts to leave the room, telling Johnny to get out of her way, as she rather die now while opportunity rises. Johnny yells at her to get back into cover, Ashley cries out that Johnny wouldn't have the guts to do much about helping her anyway. Johnny then out of stressful desperation punch-knocks out Ashley, although he himself seems surprised as to what he just did.
As if the situation wasn't bad enough, grenades has been thrown from the outside through the windows, Johnny ducks to ground, covering Ashley, as the room erupts in flames. With now fractured walls in sight, Johnny picks up Ashley on his back and attempt to find a quick improvised exit. Depending on which jacket the player is wearing this scene may or may not potentially be harder to play. If Johnny is wearing his standard black leather jacket, his health and sprint strength would decrease faster, similar to how he nearly passed out when talking with Stubbs in the sauna room earlier in the game. If he wears the old drug addled jacket unlocked in an earlier mission, which is lighter, it would ease the gameplay sequence. After navigating through the burned out hospital building like an endless maze, Johnny finally finds an exit. And collapse to the ground out of exhaustion. He takes a while to catch his breath before realizing that he is greeted by a posse of AoD lined as a execution platoon. The rescue party arrives right on schedule naturally, but with a few surprises. Clay arrives with a batch of the Uptown Riders, courtesy of Johnny having introduced Clay to Malc and established a business affiliation between the two. Terry arrives with his gun van, opening up to heavily armed Lost bikers, including Angus of all people. None of the AoD managed to even get back on their bikes. The chaos that occurred however pulled an increased in heat the city has towards the outlaw biker gangs. Tightening the police security forces, and further leading the ease to the FIB in making a deal with Billy Grey turn state witness.


The inspiration for a hospital shootout came in part from a brief moment in the Weazel News Report trailer where it depicted the reckless AoD bikers, killing random pedestrians in burger shot , hospital and subways.


One of the purpose in this scene is to show the consequence which leads Ashley to get deeply affiliated with Ray Boccino as well as Johnny's personal dislike for him, where in spite of Johnny risking his life in saving Ashley, she'll still resent him for declaring that they will never be anything more than 'friends'. Another purpose is to depict with the enough toll as it is that is clocking up Johnny's life, he gets progressively reckless, and takes bigger risks afterwards, some successful, some not so much. Finally it is also to simply add life-threatening drama, something that seldomly occurs to Johnny, and justify the oncoming sequence that is to mark the final segment of the game to feature the AoD, who have decidedly refused to maintain their public image campaign, as a result of endless gang wars against the Lost.


The two new missions depicting the final AoD strikes:


1- Taking place after Ashley has been admitted to the hospital, but before the AoD invades the place. This mission deals with the consequences to two seperate events; first the fact that Johnny took out several of the AoDs arsenal vans when Jim and Malc gave Johnny the pipe bombs in the beginning of Act II. The AoD decides in revenge to target the Lost's sergeant at arms, Terry. The second is when Malc and Johnny ambushed the drug convoy on the toll booth when working for Elizabeta. The AoD decides to haul out the Uptown Rider's motorcycle supplies. This leads to Johnny authorizing the Uptown Riders to 'borrow' the Lost's supplies of Harleys through Clay's services, prompting for more humorous comment from Malc where he shows disdain to the 'American machinery' while eventually growing a fondness to it, though refuse to admit it out loud. But beforehand Johnny races to Terry and assist him in protecting his van while AoD chases it. After a bit of drive by shootings escorting the van on his bike, Terry convinces Johnny to take cover in the van, rather than to be left in the wild as AoD enforcement arrives. Johnny rides shotgun next to Terry for another on-rail shooting sequence. This doesn't last long however as soon enough the van's tires have been popped out. Making further advancement too difficult. When asking what to do now, Terry exclaims having a brilliant idea and storms out of the van, asking Johnny to wait. Johnny attempts to hold position as AoDs succeeded in finding them again. Terry can be seen jacking a nearby tow truck, which leads Johnny to express outrage that Terry couldn't even find a faster get-away car. Terry however says he never planned on leaving his money-making gun van, his much needed income resources, instead plans on using the tow truck to move his van around. Terry asks Johnny to hang in the back of the van and allows him free-use of all the hardware he wishes, although noting to better not use it all too frantically either, as they still need these ressources to earn money. This new on-rail shooting sequence is significantly longer than the one beforehand where Johnny was just riding shotgun in the van, plus now player has all the game's weaponry to discharge at the angry bikers, and even occasional law enforcement. The grenade launcher has been tweaked in that it can now be shot through a vehicle's windshield, prompting the driver to violently panic and ram into nearby bikers before the inevitable crash and explosion. Midway through the chase the Uptown riders resurfaces with the Lost's bike arsenal. The player would have to be careful in not shooting up his allies in the process. Malc will decide to better cause a diversion, leading both AoDs and law enforcement away until Terry can find a safe place to stash the van. They eventually arrive safely at a dock warehouse in Algonquin, wondering just how far the AoD will continue to carry out their plans, if there's any more. Which, as you know, led to the burning of the hospital.


Inspirations came from the fact that despite the tow truck's inclusion in the Lost and Damned, it is simply never used, nor carry any use on its own, so I thought it would be wise to include it at least once in a mission. Another inspiration came from an official screenshot depicting Johnny riding shotgun next to Terry, which is inaccessible in game.




Purpose aside from making use of the tow-truck and deliver additional on-rail shootout, is to also provide deeper consequence to the gang conflicts between the three biker groups. It also depicts the desperation in the Angels of Death, having already lost more than enough of their organization to the war depicted in Act I, and their losses in the beginning of Act II, they decided to head on full throttle on their vengeful spirit, and their public image be damned, which is also a recurring motif in the plot, that of the 'image' status one has to another, both towards the individuals and towards societies. Finally it also acts as a set-up to the hospital sequence above, and leads to the rampaging conclusion, detailed right below.


- Taking place after the hospital event, Johnny has a meeting in the Lost clubhouse, the debate concerns the manner of retaliation they would perform against the AoD. The manner in which the conversation pans out has seemingly an air of no-difference than back when Billy was shouting orders. Jim and Angus note nonetheless that with the way things has been going, the police will no doubt be observing their every move, and just waiting for the first shot to be fired to bag them all together. Johnny argues however that in Liberty City, the police might just as much prefer that the gangs wipe each other out first, as nothing helps more than to have somebody else do the dirty jobs for you, as experience cynically taught him. Johnny leads a massive convoy out of what's left of the Lost bikers, a convoy significantly bigger than previous missions offered, now ranging to dozens of bikes, as they cross bridges, rides on highways, all the way across Liberty until they arrive at the highways next to Dukes and the airport. On the ride when the brothers converses to each other, Jim states it is rumored that the Angels have potentially plan to skip town altogether, but Johnny says that it would be rude to not give a warm farewell. There it is that the long final shootout against the Angels takes place, from drive-bys on highways, to roadblock created by panicking civilians abandoning their vehicles, to the airport tarmac where law enforcement felt obliged to pursue, but then slowly abandoning the chase once the bikers resume pursuit on the highway heading to the bridge that leads to Algonquin. To give more impact to the chase, the AoD are programmed to always be accelerating ahead of the Lost, that way it is impossible for the player to simply ride past quicker than the AoD, and risk putting the chase to an awkward on and off pacing. During the latter half of the chase where the Lost catches up to AoD supply vans towards the bridge leading to Algonquin, the backdoors would bust open and AoD members firing off rocket launchers at the Lost. Again since the AoD are programmed to always be ahead of the player, the gameplay here isn't to simply shoot off the attackers, but accurately dodging the death missiles, where it ends up landing on passing by vehicles and causing more random death to unlucky pedestrians. Eventually with the more civilians who perishes the more wanted stars would increase. Johnny would shout at folks to get out of the way, but this proves to be less effective than to dynamically shoot out tires of civilian vehicles, causing them to derail and unable to advance, and avoiding them assured death by staying too close to the chase. Once the AoD members meet their end in the heart of Liberty at Star Junction, Johnny would now have to deal with the law enforcements. Surviving Lost members would join up with Johnny and operating a perimeter where they slowly fight and advance until they find a suitable escape point, which, is nowhere to be found as police increasingly arrive and surrounds the area.
They end up seeing an approaching civilian helicopter which offers them assistance to leave the scene. The Lost all boards the helicopter as it leaves the police force stranded on the ground. It is revealed that the pilot was personally asked by the Broker chapter to assist the Lost. This also offers Johnny to enquire whether the Broker chapter has more of these aircraft resources to spare. The pilot replies that they don't even have a gunship helicopter as it "ain't Vietnam" here. If Clay is present he will note that "it actually does bring back vivid memories", with Johnny noting that this has indeed gone too much out of control.


Inspiration for the iconic scene where Johnny has to ride past and dodge rocket missiles comes in fact from the first trailer for Episodes of Liberty City, and it has always surprised me that this event simply never occurs in game, not even on gang war scenarios. Unless it requires an ostensibly high level of gang war completion, but I doubt it.


The sheer carnage operated in this mission is its own purpose, the shifting perspective between the previous on-rail segment where Johnny shoots grenade out of the back of a truck in contrast to him now dodging missiles was deliberate. The helicopter escape was to avoid forcing the players leaving down to the subways again as in GTAIV's bank job.
Finally, the complete decimation of Angels of Death presence in Liberty, a result of Billy's re-igniting the war, and subsequent un-pacifist maneuvers to help deviate the violence under Johnny's presidency, is one of the two major dramatic point I thought was missing from the Lost and Damned.
The second dramatic point I thought to be missed is resolved below, concerning the Broker Lost Chapter.


The two new missions concerning the impact Jim's death has on Johnny and wrapping up the Lost's presence in Liberty City, titled "Brothers for Life..." and "...Lost forever":


1- Immediately after Ashley gave Johnny the news of Jim's death, Johnny receives a phone call from the Broker Chapter, asking him to come and retrieve Jim's body, which they've recovered. Johnny travels once again to the Broker clubhouse to take back the body of another fallen comrade. Johnny notices the derailed train on the Broker bridge before arriving at the clubhouse. Once there he heads directly for the hearse containing Jim's closed casket coffin, never minding much the other bikers around him. The Bikers all seem resentful, mostly because of the massive loss they endured when they were blown up by Luis Fernando Lopez during the diamond heist situation, but also because Johnny not only simply never sought to inquire about the Broker chapter's losses, but now they see that it was all worth for naught, as even concerning the payment of the diamond exchange, they do not have. Johnny doesn't say anything, except for a "no" when asked by the Broker president if he had at least retrieved the money from the deal. Johnny drives the hearse off, but not heading directly to Alderney, rather he first went for the southern docks of Broker, looking for a quiet empty place to hold for a while, in the foggy nights.
From this point on what happens depends on the choice player previously made regarding which character they decided to hang out with during the intermission in the beginning of Act II, as each characters influences one of the different moods Johnny would have at this moment, hence there are four different outcome to this mission:


If Johnny went to hangout with Jim; he will get out of the hearse and sit on the van's hood, looking at the distance before nervously picking up his cellphone and attempt to call Jim's wife Jackie. But no one would pick up the phone. Johnny first thought that she may simply not wish to speak with him. Then out of curiosity he decides to call Jim. Not only does nobody answers, but neither does the ring tone or vibration can be heard from the coffin. Johnny wonders and begins to shake his head with a half smile on his face. "If only" he says. Johnny recalls the conversation he had with Jim and asking him to leave town while he still can. Johnny is theorizing that Jim may have well grabbed the opportunity he had to leave town, even if the lack of the phone ringing didn't necessarily mean anything. This however is but a 'thought' that Johnny will display, but a hopeful thought for him nonetheless. Johnny then wonders that, if it isn't Jim, then who is actually in the coffin. As Johnny finally decided to take a look, a police helicopter emerges, with a searchlight directly pointed at him. It didn't took long for Johnny to guess that it is the Broker chapter who decided to set him up, and used Jim's body to lure him out so the police can have him.
Johnny smirks at the police and returns to the hearse and drives off. Knowing that the hearse is slow enough for the helicopter to catch on, Johnny decides to backfire the Broker chapter's plan, and instead uses the hearse to cause attention and chaos before luring it all back to their clubhouse. A callback is made to an earlier mission with Jim where they had to lure cops to an ambush point, and players could hold a button to get a view from the pursuing vehicle, same could be done here. Once the player has amassed enough wanted stars, Johnny will use the hearse as a battering ram and crashes through the clubhouse. Calling it karma. As a shootout erupts between the police and the bikers caught on surprise, Johnny uses the diversion to flee, but first igniting the Broker chapter's weapon arsenal hidden in the local warehouse. With the place exploded, the shockwave propelled Johnny into the river where he then swim his way to Algonquin. Johnny hypothesizes that the Broker Chapter sets him up as retaliation
for having convinced them in participating the diamond heist, which crippled their gang, and more importantly as revenge for all this 'fruitless misadventure', a 'just business' attitude.

If Johnny hanged out with Angus; after arriving at the empty pier, Johnny will leave the hearse after a while of looking at the coffin through the rear mirror, as well at himself for a brief moment. Johnny heads for the nearby scaffoldings and climb the ladder that leads him to the nearest tallest building. Once upon the roof Johnny has a view on the Broker bridge where the incident occurred, and begins taking a few steps closer to the edge. Johnny is contemplating death. Feeling tremendous guilt for having led the brotherhood to no good, Johnny is adamant in giving his brothers freedom from his poor leadership, as well as exhausted any other possibility in living peacefully in Liberty City. However, Johnny recalls a point made by Angus, that regardless of what has happened, there's no denying that a path onward can still be made. Johnny considers the possibility of changing things for the better, whatever way he can. He finally takes a couple steps back, taking a few deep breaths. He knows now that Jim's death should not be in vain, and that they will have to live on seeking a better future, in James' name.
His thoughts are cut short however when he notices the approach of a police chopper, before being promptly shot down by a rocket. Johnny makes his way down to see what had just occurred. He finds out that the Broker chapter had been following him, and they had purposefully called in the cops in order to have it shot down, to provoke an all out assault from the law enforcement. Johnny demands to know why. The Broker president explains that recent turn of events left them considerably weakened to the point of extinction. The gang wars with Brian, the diamond heist, the ever increasing law enforcement capacity, all has brought about the final hours of the outlaw life. Johnny still feigns to not understand the reasoning behind it, while slowly and discreetly reaches for a pipe bomb in his back, having been warned by Angus that the Broker president had always have personal reasons for the services he provides. The Broker president reveals he was hoping that Johnny would have returned to Alderney first before they can call the police and have the whole gang decimated by forcing a 'suicide by cop' maneuver. But now they had no choice but to start it up early since they thought Johnny was about to kill himself when they saw him climbing up the building. Johnny says that he is not going to just roll over and die and tries to convince them that it isn't the wisest of choice, and that they can still find a way to make things better, somehow. But they won't listen, partly also because Johnny doesn't give out any strong arguments. Luckily for Johnny this conversation has stalled long enough that law enforcement have the docks surrounded, prompting him split second needed to toss the grenade at the hearse, with the explosion providing the necessary smoke screen diversion to make a run for it as shootout erupts between the bikers and the police. Johnny is tasked in evading cops until the wanted stars are dropped sufficiently allowing an easier breach at the bridge barricades to make his way back to the Alderney clubhouse.
Once that is done and Johnny rides his way towards Algonquin, the Broker president and some of his brothers give chase behind Johnny. Johnny yells at them not to force him to fire back. But the bikers had no intention of fighting Johnny, in fact they ride past him. Their intention is to lure the cops who were still pursuing them all the way to the Alderney clubhouse, and once both Lost organization mashes together, the cops wouldn't be able to tell which is which apart and be forced to decimate them all at once. Johnny is stupefied by his Broker comrade's insanity, but nonetheless, out of some remote sense of sympathy, or just tired to see one brother killing another, Johnny decides to knock the Broker bikers out of their bikes instead with a baseball bat, and thus forcing the police to arrest them. Johnny succeeds in knocking the bikers off their rides, but the Broker leader had gone on a separate route beforehand, and is nowhere to be seen. A moment of sheer luck however intervenes when Johnny spots the Broker president, Johnny expresses his most merciful gratitude towards Jim up in the sky and gives chase, the two heading towards the north Alderney bridge. The Broker president rides too far away however and Johnny fears he may never catch up considering how his bike wheels have in fact worn out when engaged in previous chases. He then decides to return the example and shoot off the Broker president's bike tires instead. Using the same pistol Jim had gave him to face the bent cops earlier in the game, Johnny shoots, and causes the Broker president to lose control when making a turn towards the bridge, and falls over, severely injuring him. The Broker president gets up on his two feet however, and begins limping his way towards Alderney. The way he limps over the crashed bike is reminiscent of Billy's capture during the Chinatown incident. Johnny notices this as he calls the cops, indicating the position. The cops arrive and takes the Broker president into custody. The man didn't even had the strength to pull out his gun to force a shootout when the cops arrive and knocks his weapon away. He screamed. Johnny watches from a safe distance. It's the second time in too short a time where he sees club leaders being taken away, though this time not only he knows the full extent of what has occurred, but he knows for a certainty that he did what had to be done to protect his chapter.

If Johnny hanged out with the Broker president; things turn to the opposite. If beginning similarly with Johnny climbing to the roof of a warehouse, what ensues is that Johnny deliberately calls the police, in order to engage a suicidal firefight with them. The goal is thus to obtain six wanted stars. Sooner or later the player will end up losing more than half of their health in which case the objective would be updated. If the player loses enough health before having reached a high number of wanted level, Johnny will be forced to seek refuge back in the Broker clubhouse. When Johnny arrives, he barely has the time to explain what is going on that shots are already being fired from the outside. The Broker president approaches Johnny calmly, drinking, and hands him over the key to his bike, telling him to go for it and to never turn back, before offering Johnny a big bottle, and a "thanks", referring to the two men's mutual desire to 'end it all' in a cathartic high as discussed during their beer drinking meeting. The two men nods, and Johnny sets off, drinking a huge gulp of the bottle in the process. If the player had their health reaching a low level after already acquiring a high number of wanted stars, then the Broker chapter will instantly ride to Johnny's rescue, along with their own helicopter arriving again to the rescue where Johnny climbs on and engage in a brief on-rail shooting while ally bikers throw molotovs and grenades all around at grounded police force. Soon enough though Johnny will need to take control of a bike himself, with the Broker president handing a bottle to Johnny, cheering him for the "good times".
In both circumstances the player will have to ride their way back to Alderney while a police annihilator that fires explosive shells give pursuit. The player has to trick the annihilator to land its shot at police squad cars and noose vans instead by consistently shifting paths, dodging around and hiding behind police vehicles, all at high speed chase. Johnny appears to be in his all time high. Eventually Johnny will make his way towards Algonquin where the annihilator will knock Johnny off his bike. Rather than standing down as the surrounding police officers demand, Johnny gets back up on his two feet. To emphasize on the sheer fervor of Johnny's rage in this unique sequence the player can use the assault shotgun with unlimited shells that requires no reloading, similar to the on-rail section of "Shifting Weight", albeit this time on foot. Johnny brings down the annihilator and all the surrounding cops until the street is left empty and quiet. There's a suggestion that somehow Johnny is in fact rather disappointed at this outcome. He begins to walk away.


If Johnny decided to visit Stubbs instead; Johnny reminisces on the fact that Stubbs pointed at Johnny's hypocrisy in not being realistic at his own life, and now with Jim dead, Johnny is forced to admit that the lifestyle he made simply couldn't have ended any other way. At the pier, Johnny calls the cops, and fires a gun shot to hurry them up. When the helicopter arrives at the scene and points the searchlight at Johnny gleamingly, Johnny observes it for a while before slowly raising his hands up. He is surrendering. But shots are fired out and the chopper fled while policemen on the scene are gunned down. The Broker chapter arrived, shocked at what Johnny was attempting to pull. They accuse him in intentionally wanting to get caught, and turn state evidence against all the other bikers. Johnny screams out that it is nothing like that at all, that he had his personal remorse to be dealt with. The Broker president calls out on Johnny's misguided temperament, and begins to recite loudly a list of names, names that are unfamiliar to Johnny. These are the names of the Broker chapter bikers who all fell to their end through Johnny's fault, one way or another. The Broker president accuses Johnny on suddenly acting soft over the death of just one biker he knows well while completely ignoring all the others, hinting at his egotistical personality. And for that, Johnny will have to pay. The bikers grab hold of Johnny while tying him to the hearse and pushes the hearse into the river, dragging Johnny along with it. They couldn't stay and watch however as siren approaches, so they flee. Johnny manages to break himself free however and climbed out of the water, coughing violently and shaking. Johnny decides to follow the Broker president's accusation to the letter; if Johnny is deemed responsible for the death of the majority of the Broker chapter, then Johnny will also be responsible in taking what's left of it out, as at this point, there's no reason to leave things unfinished.
Johnny planned to attack the clubhouse head on by himself, but when he arrives there he sees that the bikers are in fact leaving. Johnny enters the clubhouse and beats up the lone remaining watcher into telling him where have they all gone to. Johnny recognizes the terrified watcher as the helicopter pilot who previously came to their assistance in Star Junction. He says that since they believed they just killed off a chapter president, they might as well find and ruin the rest of the Alderney chapter to avoid any eventual retaliation. Knowing that it'll take too long for him to successfully ride in time to catch up with the Broker bikers, Johnny demanded that the pilot fly him to Alderney right this instant. The pilot now taken hostage is obliged to lead him to the warehouse next door where they store their weaponry and the likes. The pilot says Johnny can take whatever he wants, Johnny yells back that he doesn't need anyone's permission. They board the helicopter and fly off as Johnny continuously threatens to kill the pilot.
On their way across Algonquin and passing by the skyscrapers , the pilot , who wasn't there when Johnny was nearly killed , attempts to reason with Johnny and even ask what had "truly happen" to cause all the Broker chapter so vengeful. Johnny, still shocked that a 'brother' may actually stab another in the back when truly pushed, admits a complete lack of understanding as to why things are the way they are. The pilot remarks that it is just like the last time they met, where everything was "out of control". "You got that part right, my brother" says Johnny, before adding that if he doesn't mind, they should try not to cross paths with one another ever again to avoid more crazy situations. The pilot agrees, though he is unsure as to where will he go from now on. Before Johnny can reply however they spot the Broker bikers, nearly arriving at Alderney. Johnny points a gun with his left hand at the pilot's head while holding another weapon on his right hand, and begins shooting off the bikers as the helicopter arrives on top of them. After having shot a couple off the rest appears to be retreating, which Johnny forces the pilot to give chase once again. The pilot however has been shot when one of the bikers had a lucky shot, causing the helicopter to lose control and crash into the pond at Middle Park. Johnny swims off yet again while dragging the wounded pilot along with him. Now ostensibly exhausted, Johnny collapses on the lawn.
There isn't much time to rest however when the roaring sound of the motorcycles approaches, but Johnny is simply too weak to get up and fight. The biker president approaches, surprised that Johnny bothered saving the pilot's life. But this one act simply can't replace everything that has gone by, and prepares to execute Johnny. The pilot shoots and kills the Broker president. Johnny is flabbergasted. "How could you?" he asked. "Simple. He ain't my brother" says the pilot, before continuing that although he has ties with the Broker chapter, he works primarily for Thomas Stubbs, pointing out that Stubbs always had an hard-on for the services provided by the Lost. Johnny shakes his head, murmurs Dave Grossman's name, and realizes that if Stubbs had contacts with the Alderney chapter, he obviously would also have one with the Broker chapter. Johnny also suggest if it wasn't in fact Stubbs who called in the pilot to save the Lost back when they were pinned down in Star Junction, but the pilot won't say. Still, Johnny doesn't quite understand why the pilot would shoot the Broker president and saving his life. The pilot however asks Johnny a service first. Johnny understands and helps him get on the Broker president's bike. Remaining Broker bikers passes by at this point. They glance at Johnny and Johnny glances them back. The bikers takes a look at one another and agrees that it's not worth it and leaves. Johnny prepares to take the pilot to a hospital, but the man asks to be taken to the airport instead, saying that he plans on skipping town now that there's nothing left here. Johnny asks that there is still a possibility that the Broker chapter isn't entirely finished, and why wouldn't the pilot try to take it for himself instead. The pilot says that the Broker chapter was finished ever since the diamond heist, and that their leader, so out of touch with reality, began allowing just about anybody in to join the club and refill the numbers. Johnny doesn't believe that people on the street would so easily accept to be part of a biker club. The pilot laughs at how naïve Johnny can be, that deep down everybody in this city would just love to have a gun in hand and give the finger whenever they can. "Maybe", Johnny says, "but that don't make it right", that the brotherhood is for people that can bond with each other and only with each other, not just a safe haven for those who want to be 'weekend soldiers'. The pilot argues that Johnny's viewpoint too is out of touch, that at best they're just hitmen, and better to actually work for the government than to claim to be one's own army. Johnny says that they'll have to respectfully disagree, but nonetheless comment how he'll vote for congressman Stubbs for sure now. The pilot says he wouldn't care anyway, since he is leaving town. Johnny asks wouldn't he be afraid that Stubbs won't allow him, in fear of blackmail. The pilot laughs out the idea of Stubbs blackmailing his hitmen and that at best, he'll just be disappointed when someone refuses to work for him again, but nothing else. Johnny says he'll remember that, which he does when he finally rejects Stubbs' offer after the endgame.
Arriving at the airport, Johnny asks where does he plan to go, the pilot suggests "somewhere a bit like Vietnam, but without the shades of hypocrisy". The pilot leaves, Johnny looks at the airport, remembering his first assignment from Stubbs where he was tasked to assassinate his uncle and disguising it as a terrorist attack. Now, Johnny completes the circle by accompanying one of Stubbs' agents safely out of Liberty.


No matter which of the version the player ends up playing out, two consequences remains the same: first, the Broker chapter ceases to exist, making the Alderney chapter the sole presence of the Lost in Liberty, which gives its ending even more poignancy, and avoids the question as to why Johnny doesn't think of joining up with them instead. Secondly, in that the player is locked out of Alderney at this point, as the events that occurred during whichever variation of this mission has provoked a city wide lockdown, where Liberty City and the state of Alderney has their bridges closed. If the player attempts to go through they'll instantly receive six wanted stars. This isn't too much of a bother however, as aside from not being able to hang out with friends, the player's next mission lies in the accessible Algonquin, which is also why three of the possible four variations of this mission all ends up in Algonquin, and two of those ends by leaving the player on foot, as the player's next destination is relatively close by; the Jouster, Stubbs' gentleman club.


Inspirations for the scenes at the pier in the night, with the police searchlight aiming directly at Johnny, comes directly from these dramatic official screenshots, which, although intended to describe an atmosphere that can be had in Lost and Damned, also seems to beckon to be used in actual dramatic sequences.








Purposes for each of the variation are different as they are intended to succeed from the character advices Johnny receives: with Jim, Johnny gains hope that not only his friend may have survived, but that there may be a possibility to 'end' ties to the chapter whenever the opportunity arises, which Johnny will fully take during the Lost and Damned's ending.
The gameplay itself is low-key, and serves more as a cathartic homage to Jim's own mission than anything 'new' to the table, mainly unlike the Angus and Broker president paths.


With the Angus option Johnny faces his biggest test of strength yet, which is a parallel to Angus himself. Johnny felt that the loss of Jim was a sufficient excuse for him to stop fighting his struggle altogether, but loss isn't equal to the end of the line, and that is where Johnny decides to fight back, even if it meant against the raving dreams of another fellow biker as the Broker president exemplify. The idea that Johnny willingly calls for the Broker president's arrest marks also his catharsis from the Chinatown incident with Billy, as he can now put all sense of doubts into rest with the replacement of this new and actual event. Whereas he was once upon falsely accused of betraying another brother, this time it only seemed fair.
The gameplay is a mixture of several different modes, with on foot running, evading wanted stars, road rash and accurate shooting, all pointing out to the quickness and rawness of the biker figure as Johnny believes in, down to the arrest of the Broker president. All contributed to Johnny's evade from death's temptation and faces rebirth, if but a short rebirth nonetheless.


The Broker president option is that of the willing suicidal envy of the "giving the man the finger" mentality in its extreme, the result leaves Johnny bitter disappointment, as even at the end, he can't be too sure as to what he has done has any significant meaning, and that unlike Jim, he remains pretty much alive. It is not known what happens to the Broker president either, as he could have very well survived and faces the same grim look Johnny has: the sense of being lost is constantly present all around them, and they feel damned about it.
The gameplay focuses on this by making the player into feeling a gift of being invincible, but once that comes to and end, once it gets out of the system, there's nothing more to savor about it.


Finally the Stubbs route also features low-key gameplay in favor of more dialogues and character expositions, because this is the same result one gets from Stubbs himself, where the dialogues and character exposition shines highest, but ultimately, also proves to be partially uneventful. Johnny intended to surrender, but is dragged back down, figuratively and literally, back to where and who he was, an angry and shouting killer, but also with a soft heart dominated by a hungry conscience and a touch for lasting friendship as demonstrated with the pilot's exchange. This mirrors Stubbs' interaction with Johnny, no matter how much Stubbs attempts to give Johnny a radical view on things, he also inadvertently encourages Johnny to continue doing what he does best; acts of violence. Which also shows that when Johnny declines Stubbs offer at the end game, Johnny is in fact making his first step to 'move on'. The importance of the exchange with the pilot regarding Stubbs' interest in both chapters of the Lost is to add further incentive to justify why would Stubbs even bother to give assistance to the Lost in the final mission when he has nothing to actually gain from it, aside of course from desires to continue employ the bikers to clean up more 'dirty laundries', but at least there's now a layer of doubt and multifacetedness to it.


2- And finally, the last new mission, continuing immediately after the previous one and preceding the final mission with the daunting jail break. As stated, whichever variation of the previous mission the player partakes in, Johnny will notice that he is cut off from Alderney, and with the Broker chapter out of function, Johnny's only other contact in Liberty who can offer help in any substantial way, is naturally Stubbs. When Johnny arrives however he is only greeted by the maître d' of the gentleman's club, Leavis. Leavis says that Stubbs isn't here at the moment and didn't gave any indication as to when he might return, prompting Johnny to appear particularly bothered. Leavis notes this as well as the fact that Johnny looks considerably weary, as well as having his clothes and feet wet if the player played through the Jim or Stubbs option in the previous mission, or strong sense of smoke and burn if played through the Broker president option, or perhaps a look on the face that appears like he had seen a ghost if taken the Angus option. Leavis will make various comment during the level such as these, further enticing players to seek for replays. In any case, Leavis will offer Johnny a momentary stay in the club, much to Johnny's amazement. Considering the events of the night he just had, Johnny sees no harm in it, also accounting that he doesn't have anywhere else to go at the moment. The level takes the player around the Jouster club, previously only scene in cutscenes. Johnny is allowed to do a large range of activities, from the steam room, massage, the study room, bar, terrace, and generally conversing with the other folks of the membership while classical music fills the scenery. Equipped with an appropriate robe and a cigar after a shower, Johnny is left to mingle about. Johnny keeps a sterile profile while conversing with the other club patrons, and generally lies about his 'preoccupation'. Under the context when the Lost and Damned was released, lines of dialogue pocking fun at the recession may have seem like the most natural inclusion, although in today's case the topic can be changed to fit into more recent notable event. Johnny may head back to the lobby and ask Leavis if Stubbs has returned yet, to which Leavis will say that he will be informed as soon as Stubbs has returned and the he ought not to worry. Johnny and Leavis will also expresses more of their viewpoint to one another, and the more Johnny frequented the other members of the club, the more Leavis will ask Johnny if he finds this "kind of rich people lifestyle" actually not so different than his own personal taste. Johnny will eventually admit that there is something soothing about this place, but then again he had a long day, and his mind is somehow all over the place at the moment so he can't possibly think straight. Eventually Johnny will note that there isn't any point in lingering around here any further and get dressed on his biker outfit again and set off to leave, shocking some of the club members at the lobby who thought Johnny was a "loveable chap" when he was dressed differently back in the study room. Prompting Johnny to be displeased at the politicians for being hypocrites. Leavis and Johnny bid their farewell, Johnny thanks for the brief accommodations while Leavis genuinely thanks Johnny for his 'unchanged manners'. Johnny isn't too sure as to what Leavis meant precisely but guessed it surely meant something positive.
Leaving the club Johnny gets a clear view at the Libertonian museum right in front of him, and began wondering about one of the last encounters he had with Jim, which was the passing of the briefcase. Johnny says "Why not" to himself and goes to the alley where the briefcase was last seen.
If the 'Jim option' was taken, Johnny will look around and finds nothing, although further giving him the idea that Jim made it out alive and got away with it all, "surely for the best" he says.
If the 'Angus option' was taken, Johnny will much to his surprise find that the briefcase was actually still stashed there and takes it, making it the only sequence in the game where you actually get to hold the briefcase in your inventory.
If the 'Broker president option' was taken, Johnny will only walk halfway towards the alley and decides that it is in fact best not to even bother going through there, as Jim's death is still a sore subject to him.
If the 'Stubbs option' was taken Johnny will look around at the trash containers and sulk his way through as he plunges his hand around to look for the briefcase, until he stops suddenly with a shocked look on his face, and slowly drags the briefcase out of the trash container. Johnny will look at the briefcase while holding at it in his two hands, even gently wiping away some of the dirt on it. He will then open it and see that the full money count is still in it. Having still a cigar given to him in the gentleman's club, he lit it up, takes a few deep smoke in him, then breathing the smoke away closely. Then finally, he puts the cigar into the briefcase, watching the first couple of bills starting to burn, before closing it, and throwing it violently back into the trash container.
After Johnny finds or doesn't find the briefcase and walks out of the alley, he still has to find a way across the bridge back to Alderney as the lockdown is still in place. He then encounters a few of the gentlemen he met at the club, now slightly tipsy and making their way to their limo. One of them wanted to drag Johnny in along with them having recognized his face, but not noticing his new 'outfit' at first sight. Johnny asks where they were headed, to which they boast they could go wherever they want to. Johnny proposes Alderney, to which the drunken men agrees to 'sail' for it. Johnny acts as their chauffeur and took them to the bridge barricade, where the gentlemen persuaded the cops to let them pass with a long list of unconventional threats; law articles. Arriving at Alderney Johnny decides to keep his bargain of the deal, to give them a tour of the city. Johnny deliberately takes them to the most unimpressive sights of the island, even passing by the alcohol rehabilitation Billy first went at the beginning, all while narrating in a somber tone as to just how he view at things around him. The gentlemen listens and comments on the matter to their best, while still keeping their original upper class attitude, but without the stereotype of it. The tour ends in front of the Lost clubhouse where Johnny invites them all in for a drink. Bumping into Angus, Johnny simply states that he has no mood to quarrel , explain or even justify what he has been doing. Angus expresses concern over Johnny's tired looks, as well as the new 'weekend warriors' coming through, before leaving.
If the 'Angus option' was taken and therefor the only result where Johnny has the briefcase, he gives it to Angus, telling him not to open it just yet. Angus however looks at the quality of the briefcase' material and understood what it is. As he looks up to Johnny, Johnny tells Angus that "you'll now what to do with it best". Johnny then goes back to the clubhouse, before giving Angus a chance to say something, and left still pausing at the door step, and that is the last to be seen with the money briefcase.
Johnny serves the men their drinks for the road, and after having one himself, he leaves them as they sing, and goes up the stairs to the Lost memorial wall. With the clubhouse now empty, devoid of the arm wrestling crowd, the card players, the barman at the entrance, cage pole dancer, or even the idling members who were sitting stoned on the couches, the only place the clubhouse was at its fullest, is this mural.
The scene ends as gentlemen below can be heard finishing their drink and leaving back to Algonquin while singing with British accents the song "It's a long way to Tipperary", while Johnny placing Jim's portrait on the final empty spot on the wall, and takes a few steps back to see the wall at its full length.


The purpose of the scene, as well as the mission before it, is to give pause and reflection between the death of Jim and the plan to storm through the Alderney penitentiary to find and kill Billy. This was a transition in the game that I thought to be a steep too 'hurry'. Although it can makes sense for Johnny to be immediately willing to pull a suicidal stunt to kill Billy to prevent him from turning state evidence against Johnny and Angus, it just seems like a sudden 'bang' that signals the end of the tale, but a tale that just happens to be so suddenly propelled to its end just as Johnny learns that his best friend Jim had died. I don't necessarily disagree with the idea, but I believe that with these couple of additional missions it can enhance Johnny's state of mind, as to avoid us having to 'guess' what's going on in his mind, we can actually feel and see it as we play.


The idea of Johnny giving a 'sightseeing tour' of Alderney came in part from a joke in GTA IV's final mission, when Niko chases Pegorino's goons on the highway, Roman and Jacob will note that they 'don't really know Alderney so well', which prompts Niko angry at the misplaced time for admiring the view. In the case of Johnny, Alderney being his home turf, it was interesting to see what he actually has to say and think about this neighborhood he potentially grew up in, while lecturing to the Algonquin 'gentlemen' who came from the far end opposite of social evolution.


Meanwhile the idea that Johnny returns to the Jousters in the first place was also due to a small caprice of mine to have Johnny converse with Leavis for a third time. Leavis' interactions with Johnny during the two Stubbs assignment in the beginning of the game were part of my favorite moments in the whole story; it's a series of exchange that our protagonist has with a person that is to put it mildly, a 'nobody' in Johnny's personal life, and yet he says a lot about what he thinks of his social status to this artificially well-mannered doorman/butler/maître d'. And the guy responds in a incredibly satisfying karmic way when he retorts Johnny's viewpoint by asking him if there is truly something worthwhile in living a life that centers around nothing but to fulfill an urge of disliking conformity. I just find it disappointing that the two simply didn't had a 'third encounter', and I thought that one more time after Johnny becomes leader of his gang and having driven it to the ground, would make for a nice opportunity to have a conclusion discourse between the two. Wherein despite all he has gone through Johnny still rejects the higher class that he can't necessarily fit in -even if it is suggested that he has a side to him that 'may' actually suit him well- and Leavis applauds of Johnny's decision to at least stick by his ideals, even if they are ragged and somber, it's what Johnny and the bikers always uphold to be; that one percent of self inflicted outcasts.


The four different variation as to what ends up of the briefcase just seemed like an obligatory inclusion, but without entirely changing the grit to the game's ending; Johnny therefor either doesn't find the briefcase, giving him hope that Jim made it ok, or doesn't attempt to locate it out of poor taste and downer mood to go where supposedly Jim was last seen , or finds it but gets rid of it as he got tired of the greed this money procured not least of which due to a succeeding encounter he just had within the Jouster club , or finally , he finds it , but doesn't keep it to himself , rather giving it all to Angus , the sole member of the Lost Johnny felt to be the most deserving ... as well as potentially be a fan favorite outcome, I don't know.


Finally, with the scene ending in a now empty clubhouse where life is all but embodied on a memorial wall, it gives bigger incentive for Johnny to carry out his final mission and taking such a big risk in leading a suicide charge, because at this point already, his only responsibility as leader to be had is to himself, Angus, Terry and Clay. It's finally a personal matter, in a way, as he already lost all his kingdom. This further clarifies and updates a current in-game error whereupon the clubhouse never loses its occupant no matter how far the player progresses through the story, and always ends up empty when Stubbs makes his visit, before finally trashed during the ending, even though one may just have to ask where did all the Lost went during the scene where the clubhouse was trashed, and if they were there to defend the place albeit unsuccessfully , then where are their bodies left? I thought that it had to be made clear at first that the clubhouse was already empty at this point, and when the mausoleum was being burned down it's only since it was already in an abandoned state.


The song "It's a long way to tipperary" is chosen for its lyrics, wherein it suggest of reaching out to a far away place , but that it is worth going "as my heart's right there".
The Jouster club members sings the song as they are on their back to Algonquin where they resides and thrives, but it also serves as a resounding bittersweet moment for Johnny as there is 'none' of this place for him to go to, except the one here from which he stands but without the great majority of his family, now having all gone elsewhere, even farther away, in death.
Finally, as the final scene depicted in my Extended edition, from its meta standpoint it simply recalls at the unrealistic odds that this would ever take place in a actual 'real' world rendition, as well as hinting that any suggestive plans, ideas, pleas, or wishes we may have for Johnny, the Lost, or various substantial topic all around, it would rarely if ever go beyond as a mere 'idea' and 'suggestion', something that'll linger in our minds, and only that far.


As a bonus, the player gets to unlock an additional costume, the Jouster's membership robe. It looks odd and misplaced with Johnny, which is in fact a deliberate point regarding the often demand of having 'more costumes' to use for Johnny; frankly, the only clothing that ever looked good on him Is his black leather jacket with the huge Lost MC logo imprinted on it, almost like a stamp or mark of doomed servitude. It's also by the end of the game, the only thing he has left, the clothes on his shoulder.



To sum it all up , when applied to the actual game , here's how the extended version would do :


Spaces in between means player have a choice as to tackle which missions first, hyphens in between lines means the above chapters have to completed as whole in order to proceed.


Billy ----Clean & Serene
Billy ----Angels in America
NEW Billy ----Rhapsody Ride


NEW Johnny ----Knocking Wannabes

Jim ----Liberty City Choppers
Jim ----Bad Cop Drop

Billy ----It's War
Billy ----Action/Reaction


NEW Terry ----Meth Lab

NEW Broker Chapter ----Investigating Jason

Elizabeta ----Buyer's market

NEW Billy ----Industrial Carnage
NEW Johnny ----Dreaming of good old days


Stubbs ----Politics
Ashley ----Coming Down
Stubbs ----Off Route

NEW Billy ----Disguising as the Enemy
NEW Billy ----Bar Brawl
NEW Johnny ----Beach out with the brothers


Billy ----This S's Cursed


Jim ----Hit the Pipe
Brian ----End of chapter
NEW Broker Chapter ----Clubhouse Fire
Brian ----Bad Standing


NEW Johnny ----Intermission Conversation

NEW Brian ----Civil war consequences


Elizabeta ----Heavy Toll
Elizabeta ----Martha Full of Grace
Elizabeta ----Shifting Weight


Ashley ----Roman's Holiday
NEW Johnny ----Settling Friendship
NEW Terry ----Tow Truck Madness
NEW Johnny ----AoD strikes Hospital
NEW Johnny ----Final AoD Highway Chase


Ray ----Diamonds in the Rough
Ray ----Collector's Item
Ray ----Was it worth it?
NEW Johnny ----Brothers for life...
NEW Johnny ----Lost forever...
Stubbs ----Get Lost


And again to sum up the major idea , this extended edition aimed to target the following plot situations I thought could benefit from this same game without having to rewrite it from the ground up:
- Billy's war with the Angels of Death culminating in Johnny's open disobedience, which serves as an important justification for Billy to betray his otherwise obedient soldier as presented in the actual game ...
- The Broker Chapter , giving it an actual role in the story , showing how Johnny's presidency had brought up turmoil and severe consequences to the gang , and how even its leader isn't the sanest man you could rely on , especially despite his noble dreams he is pushing it to the state of unreasonable ethic, as some sort of a 'what if' Johnny and Billy were the same person. It also serves as well to better introduce the chapter compared to its otherwise sudden and almost meaningless presence in the actual game , even though it should have carried a significant importance ; Liberty City isn't a big place , and when you have two different chapters from the same outlaw biker gang , it just feels odd that one never got to interact with another , nor does it give as much impact to the ending where Johnny burned down the clubhouse , questions could have easily been raised as to 'well what about that other chapter he could have gone to and call home?' , now on the other hand , you'll know for sure how homeless they all turn out ...
- Brian's Civil War , its effect on crippling the Alderney Lost Chapter and pushing Johnny to resort into difficult dealings and more violent affairs before concluding with Johnny's all-out decimation of the AoDs , all of which that weren't too far out of what Billy's presidency looked like , I thought that a greater emphasis on this point mattered ...
- Additional interactions with the cast, particularly Angus, Ashley, and Leavis ...
- More emphasis on Johnny as a character with an actual mindset and conscience to deal with in the midst of the chaos he is surrounded in , a subject that is at times lacking when it could have benefited to a better understanding or perhaps even sympathy to this otherwise outrageously suicidal hoodlum with pretentious etiquettes ...
- And finally, Johnny's handling in Jim's death, Johnny's goals and social position, and conclusion to the missing briefcase, as you've read through extensively already ...


Well , that's all folks ! ...


It's a long long way to tipperary , but my heart's right there ! ...


Edited by Grievous

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Right okay. Even I, who do these 'longish' posts all the time got sort of crushed by the wall of text. A few more paragraphs would have been nice in certain sections but I can tell you put a lot of thought and effort into this and I can't just ignore that.


Firstly, I'll open by saying I was okay with the original product. Could it have been better and more detailed in parts? Sure but that could be said for many things.


Considering that both TLAD and BoGT were relatively well received by critics, they did not sell as well as Rockstar had hoped. In fact if I'm not mistaken Rockstar said that future DLC is unlikely to be quite like this again because the DLC was released too long after the release date. Then again they also said that Packie wasn't going to be in GTA 5, look how that turned out.


That's why I suspect there's so many loose ends like the Broker chapter, a lot of ideas were had and many were cut for the sake of conciseness and it was still considered 'too involved'.


Secondly a bit of it seems out of place in my opinion. I don't see Johnny being particularly concerned with discouraging people who may follow his life style. Because the way Johnny sees things is that there isn't an alternative. He concludes to Leavis that 'there's always a man, he just wears a different uniform', so his only response is to make the best of things. i don't think Johnny would see it as his place to 'lead people away', all of Johnny's actions throughout the story are about protecting those in his 'sphere' and very little care to anyone outside it and part of 'society'.


Further Billy already has a motive for setting Johnny up. Brian had been told by Agent Jones that Johnny was a rat. Brian reports this to Billy, and it just reinforces everything Billy has convinced himself of. It's easy to find evidence or reason for something you want to be true, take me and my belief of Jim still being alive.


The fact Billy didn't fact check just reinforces that Billy lost his mind and was a different person once, some time before he had the accident with Angus and well before his first arrest. He doesn't really need a good motive and because he's the antagonist, he can get away with the insanity angle unlike a certain protagonist.


I also don't see Johnny blending in with the AoD. The beliefs both groups have conflict too strongly and I don't see him wanting to warn a guy off, he might dislike Billy's dishonorable backstab but he dislikes the Angels even more which is why he goes along with it. The only reason Johnny doesn't like the war is because the AoD are a lot bigger then they are and it's one of Angus' biggest concerns of how Billy is going to drive the club into the ground.


I may read this in more detail later but even for me it was rough and some of it just doesn't fit the characters and some parts go into a tad too much detail for a game. I can't explain it anymore then that other than what I've already said.

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*serves fresh drinks*


To be honest I didn't quite expect anyone to really make it all the way t'ill the end of this inhumane obelisk I just drilled into the forum , even though i'm glad to see survivors of course ... but then again I kind of wanted to make a point precisely regarding 'walls of text' and 'out-of-character' moments ; as it's been two weeks already that we kind of unexpectedly seen the end to Johnny's brief existence in the Grand Theft Auto universe and making large discourses attempting to justify or denounce or outright cry over a topic that just reeks of 'death' in a manner of speaking ...

I thought that , in a odd way , it would have been nice to remember Johnny by telling tales , like sitting around a fire and boasting vague claims or outright fabricated myths that all portray our individual enthusiasm for a fictional character made for a DLC ... and not just sit by the morgue and curse at the recession or at some invisible figure in the sky or something.


I don't know , I had great fun writing this anyway and cooking up wild ideas while trying to make it consistent.

I did wish there was a better way to sort of making it more accessible to read , but unless I put it on a external site such as a blog where I may potentially handle the page presentation aspects , I just didn't quite knew how to show it properly on the forum.

In fact , it took me an hour alone to post this on the forum, so much it was struggling to even give me a page preview of it all!

Considering that both TLAD and BoGT were relatively well received by critics, they did not sell as well as Rockstar had hoped. In fact if I'm not mistaken Rockstar said that future DLC is unlikely to be quite like this again because the DLC was released too long after the release date. Then again they also said that Packie wasn't going to be in GTA 5, look how that turned out.


That's why I suspect there's so many loose ends like the Broker chapter, a lot of ideas were had and many were cut for the sake of conciseness and it was still considered 'too involved'.

Really ? did Rockstar openly stated their disappointment with the Episodes of Liberty City ? ...

Would it explain turning Johnny into a death seeking meth addict ? is it a way for Rockstar to express their frustration over the matter ? ... Boy we can only get at so long at finding an unexplainable explanation to this situation.

Part of the reason why in my fanfiction there's suddenly four different ending variation regarding the Broker Chapter is also because I thought it was a tricky matter to be settled , and in parallel , I might just understand why Rockstar left it out completely as to avoid having to fumble around with it.

On one hand I couldn't just outright make it a clone of the Alderney Chapter, as in this case there simply wouldn't have been much to discuss about, so even though Jim says that they likes "to play as dirty as the rest of us", I thought that it would have been more worthwhile to explore the more unhinged and out-of-touch aspect of an outlaw motorcycle gang located in the capital city of the excessive twenty first century ... But even That just didn't felt entirely satisfying on its own , it just had to click with Johnny's character more , and to so ... well ... I abused of the drama with Jim's death as a 'wake-up call' of sort to Johnny vis a vis his Broker gang counterpart ...

Damn that makes so much no-sense ...

Secondly a bit of it seems out of place in my opinion. I don't see Johnny being particularly concerned with discouraging people who may follow his life style. Because the way Johnny sees things is that there isn't an alternative. He concludes to Leavis that 'there's always a man, he just wears a different uniform', so his only response is to make the best of things. i don't think Johnny would see it as his place to 'lead people away', all of Johnny's actions throughout the story are about protecting those in his 'sphere' and very little care to anyone outside it and part of 'society'.

Ah , yes , regarding all those scenes about Johnny acting a bit soft and carrying a torch of consciousness to others ...

Keeping in mind that I wrote all of that extravaganza while keeping in mind the actual game's script , it was in my opinion that , as contradictory as it may sound , that the best way to put an emphasis on Johnny's action presented in the actual game 'is' to lead through these side-track scenes where he may have intended to act out things that was in all intentional honesty 'out of place' even for him ...

The gambit I'm presenting here is that there's a remote part of conscience within Johnny that may actually be saying to himself that "this isn't right", that his outlaw life is a sphere bubble that is intentionally sustained, through repeated battle cries of "LOST MC!", to refuse to acknowledge the world around him. And that all of this, may not be the wisest of solution.

He doesn't fully go through these 'thoughts' of his however, he still pretty much continues to embody that figure he is sustaining himself to be, but I thought it would have been wrong to completely disregard that this man may have at least thought once or twice that "giving the man the finger my whole life" just isn't working today anymore.

Or maybe i'm just explaining it wrong. It's quite possible.



Further Billy already has a motive for setting Johnny up. Brian had been told by Agent Jones that Johnny was a rat. Brian reports this to Billy, and it just reinforces everything Billy has convinced himself of. It's easy to find evidence or reason for something you want to be true, take me and my belief of Jim still being alive.


The fact Billy didn't fact check just reinforces that Billy lost his mind and was a different person once, some time before he had the accident with Angus and well before his first arrest. He doesn't really need a good motive and because he's the antagonist, he can get away with the insanity angle unlike a certain protagonist.



I've seen you making the 'agent Jones' angle a couple of times now, and to be frank, it's either a stretched out conclusion of putting the dots presented in the game together, or, it is something that is subtly nuanced, but not sufficiently in my opinion.


It's just a bit too much to 'guess' it all, as much sense as it makes mind you, but that Jones deliberately tricked Brian's weak opinion, and provoking this entire chain reaction that leads to Billy consider Johnny as a "disloyal jew bastard", all this due to a couple of lines mentioned here and there by Brian ... I don't know.

I know we're not supposed to expect essay-length character motivations for Rockstar's antagonists to pull off their crazed biddings, but the case of Billy Grey just sits uncomfortably with me. Mostly it has something to do with the difference he represents compared to the previous antagonists , he isn't a corrupt figure of the law , nor a drug baron who dislikes competition , nor an unscrupulous employer of hitmen hired from the street , no , he's the childhood friend of our protagonist , they've known each other for twenty years , and yes I figure as much they'll want us to swallow that whole "drugs makes you a pathetic sad former shell of yourself" , but with just Brian's kiss-ass attitude and a few "please don't do something stupid" remarks from Johnny then whoa Billy goes "F him! my brother won't do drugs with me, he can go to hell!".

This standard GTA Antagonist mindset logic just seems a bit out of place with Billy, especially since for once we've got both the protagonist and antagonist wishing to contribute to the greater good to the same thing, but just can't get along on take the same route to reach that destination. This is more than the standard "I sold you out because I wanted more money/power/drugs and I don't care!" mentality, so it's a missed opportunity for me that Billy ends up falling to the same basket.


And at this point , i'm surprised Johnny didn't actually sold out Billy out of anger and disappointment for what he had become and what he is doing to the Lost.


At least their last encounter was brilliant and satisfying conclusion, but the events that led to that point, not so much for me.


By the way i'm surprised you didn't comment on my take of Jim's fate and the result with the briefcase.


Too out of place and far fetched, I imagine?




I also don't see Johnny blending in with the AoD. The beliefs both groups have conflict too strongly and I don't see him wanting to warn a guy off, he might dislike Billy's dishonorable backstab but he dislikes the Angels even more which is why he goes along with it. The only reason Johnny doesn't like the war is because the AoD are a lot bigger then they are and it's one of Angus' biggest concerns of how Billy is going to drive the club into the ground.


I may read this in more detail later but even for me it was rough and some of it just doesn't fit the characters and some parts go into a tad too much detail for a game. I can't explain it anymore then that other than what I've already said.

Well I must have explained it poorly but I mainly thought that Johnny would go warn off 'this' particular AoD group because he is tired of the fighting, not the least of which he nearly got killed in the scene that precedes it with the oil refinery and Brian's grenade launcher. And it just so happens that one of the remaining bands of AoD in Alderney is led by that same man he had previously stroke a deal with, hence him thinking hopefully that he could bargain another deal.


Of course later on Johnny goes on a complete disregard rampage against All AoDs in the Second Act, since the AoDs won't let it quit no more and to add with the repeated life attempts, Johnny decimates them all, and finds out in the process that the Lost has truly put itself near its end, which cuts to the risk of wanting to rip Ray off and help amend to the loses the Lost endured through.


Which then leads to the tragedy of how it all around him, his sphere, his home, collapses even quicker with him placed in its center, either due to the mess left by the predecessors or from his poor leadership altogether, or both ...


But anyway thanks for the discussion and patience for it, as it inadvertently made myself have second thoughts as to the madness I've brought upon here.


I'll still stick by it though, for the moment.

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I hadn't read to that part regarding Jim. I skimmed most of it after a certain point quite quickly, but like I said in due time I'll go over it. I just wanted to give you feedback, because if I tried chewing down it all, my response would be much too long.


Speaking of which, if you were looking for a way of presenting, go one step at a time even though you want to get your entire point/idea out at once so it all makes sense to you, it's not much use if no one wants to bother.


Don't crush everyone under the weight of the wall of text, I guess I know because it's taken me years to make my messages readable by even a small crowd, I figure most people who don't care for analysis wouldn't care no matter how concise I make it but regrettably human nature is more focused on the package then the content and that's true in all ways of life online or otherwise and honestly, it's my nemesis.


In any case, back to the original point. I don't think it's just the drugs, something happened to Billy. Part of the 'fun' of these stories is using your imagination rather than having everything explained.


Having Terry's meth thing more explained is nice and all, but the way it is now is alright. It's a line of text mostly which given has been more reinforced but seeing as Terry never makes a reference to it, it could just be hearsay on the part of the LCPD and they have no solid proof and considering the corruption this wouldn't be surprising.


What makes me suspect Agent Jones having a part is two things Brian does. Firstly after Billy is arrested, he challenges Johnny to hand over his phone and basically says that the law (Agent Jones) had told him Johnny ratted. The second thing is that when Johnny goes to Brian at his safe house to confront him, you see Brian on the phone talking quite casually about not wanting to go to prison as if he is making a deal. I think the likelihood of all of this is pretty high and it strongly fits Brian's character.


I find that Billy's additional motives don't exactly have to be strong considering all that happened before 'This sh*t's cursed', it's quite clear he thought his authority was in danger and wanted to remove that threat. Certainly people have murdered others and backstabbed for less let alone in the GTA world.


As for Johnny's 'torch of consciousness', I'm quite sure there is a huge amount of thoughts inside him that think 'Is there a better way?'. The answer Johnny concludes is ultimately 'No' and there's not much he can do about it. Therefore there isn't anything to ever act on because those 'moral' thoughts reach a conclusion and his actions and words reflect this.


His positive response to the email of his brother pretty much sums this up because both Johnny and Michael encounter similar hardships in the paths they both chose and it's as if Johnny is partly saying 'told you so' but at the same time admitting that his path wasn't right either.

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Lord almighty , did Rockstar intentionally displayed all of these aspects with great purpose and meticulous intentions , or are we really stirring the mess they made and suddenly made it all seem brilliant ? ...


I agree with everything you've pointed out.


Dishing my entire wall of text here was deliberate in a way, as I wanted to create a parallel between that other topic made in response to the GTAV mess: I wanted to demonstrate that thoughts and words in this forum and amongst us fans could be used more positively in the act of creation, even if I use a fanfiction as an example ...

I mean I just don't want to see all of us gather around here just for the sake of pulling long faces and sulking about , we should be both protesting and savoring the things that lead us here in the first place ; our adoration of the Lost and Damned ...


I also thought that if I had just started my topic out "hey guys , what if we create a couple more missions to this short game and add context to it at the same time?" this will ... well ... from my experience it tends to end poorly, as either nobody participates or nobody sees reasons to do so either , as it'll 'just be fan writing' ...

Maybe I should have attempted it nonetheless here and should not have been so pessimistic about it , but I thought a point had to be made quickly about our sudden presence in this forum ...


It's not like this was a daily or weekly active forum section , and once that GTAV fuel dies down , well , people would be gone again , in fact I suspect they already are , come back !!! free pop corns to those who stay ! ...


Anyway as I said , I agree with all the points you make and the nuanced viewpoint you give , especially with Johnny's actions , and even with Billy regardless , although I still have plans to make a different topic about , later ...


The part about 'not having everything explained to you' is actually something I like a lot ... however in our case with Rockstar , they do have a tendency to make it feel contradictory when you see them giving subtleties at times and at others shoving a dramatic point to our face , so it makes me wonder if the moments of subtleties , the moments of unsaid explicitness , weren't in fact actual shades of missed opportunities to go 'bigger' , since everything else is screamed loud to the obviousness ...


For example , I'm still not quite sure if the Ballad of Gay Tony was an explicit case of 'this is what happens when you put in situations that don't mix with the scenery context' or quite simply 'we do what we want and you idiots still pay us, hahahaha' ...


And as for Johnny , we're still debating the intentions of his final curb stomp ! ...

Edited by Grievous

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Everyone else might be debating, I'm not. All is said and done as far as I'm concerned. It's a farce and it's something you'd expect from a newbie fanfiction writer telling us about their new awesome character who's so much better then that old guy. Most people won't see it this way because of the pretty wrapping paper around it which most new fanfiction authors don't have the benefit of. Just reinforces the point of people being more focused on the package than the actual content.


Sure somethings should be explained but others are best left to our imagination and hints left here and there. The only reason I'd want Jim and/or Angus really coming back is because of the farce they did to Johnny.


Considering how good Rockstar are what they do 99% of the time, I'd say yeah, it's totally intentional. It's why moments like that infamous one (amongst others) stand out like a sore thumb as if they said 'okay people we have to rush this here, quick think of a way to move the plot'. People might not be able to figure out the whole puzzle of why they are pissed off over Johnny dying in the way he did, but that's basically the gist of it.


The endings in many Rockstar games reflect this for sure, all of 4's weren't too bad on this scale,

but options A and B in 5 were definitely on this and felt really phoned in, even C was questionable.



To be brutally honest, I don't think you or I are ever going to be able to grab the attention of the audience we want. Most people simply don't care for this sort of discussion and even those that do might not in such detail.


It's why I typically avoid forums, my viewpoint often falls on deaf ears, the key points get completely ignored and most people just twist the one thing they can, take it out of context in a bad attempt at making themselves look good while completely missing the point. A certain thread is full of that although much less than I'm used to thankfully.

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Fantastic work! This is how the game shoukd have been!

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Drunken Cowboy


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Drunken Cowboy

Though, let's reply in all seriousness, and not just from an average GTA fan's perspective.

This isn't what The Lost and Damned was meant to be originally, this is what a VERY niche'd, cult group of fans have developed wanting after three years to mull over the game.

When I first played the DLC, I was blown away by every aspect except for its length. Still, you gotta consider what went into the DLC besides the story; the radio DJ recordings, news recordings, ingame television content, ingame internet content, side missions, multiplayer. I bet they were working on it quite immediately after Niko's story.


I mean, I would LOVE this to be a full game, but the truth is, it's just not going to be worth it for anyone to produce something like that... There's a reason there hasn't been hard rock/ leather/motorcycle games really before. What do we have, Ride to Hell: Retribution? (HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHA)


If we're living in fantasy, then yes, now that I've replayed TLad four times and played the sh*t out of the multiplayer, I want more of that good stuff. Nevertheless, it became PRETTY apparent in V that R* gives zero f*cks about Johnny, the Lost, and the TLaD fandom. Best we can do is continue to live in this isolated corner of fandom...

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Although it was one hell of a long read, I'd say it was worth it, and it really made me think. Overall, I enjoyed it!

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And at this point , i'm surprised Johnny didn't actually sold out Billy out of anger and disappointment for what he had become and what he is doing to the Lost.



wait, didn't johnny say that he would never betray his brothers?

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If we're living in fantasy, then yes, now that I've replayed TLad four times and played the sh*t out of the multiplayer, I want more of that good stuff. Nevertheless, it became PRETTY apparent in V that R* gives zero f*cks about Johnny, the Lost, and the TLaD fandom. Best we can do is continue to live in this isolated corner of fandom...

it's kind of sad but it's the truth...

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Weiss Macht Frei

Read it all, seriously if Dan Houser writes the next GTA i'm not buying it.

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This is what the game should have been in the first place. I'm happy with what we got, but this extended version is just.... wow. Infinite cookies for you.

However, I don't think this will ever happen. Something more likely (though still next to impossible) is a DLC for V with Johnny, Clay, and Terry as the main protagonists occurring in Blaine County after the events of TLaD and before V, with the journey starting in Liberty City/Alderney but quickly moving to Los Santos/Blaine County. Maybe I'll make a thread with my idea in a while.

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I should have left the mini bar open had I knew there would have been a number of brave adventurers out here!


I didn't think 'this' would have ever gone real either, unless they ditched Ballad in the first place and made Lost and Damned a two part DLC. But on the other hand they would have figured that it's too risky to focus so much for a mere idea, even though I would have preferred it, it's not exactly a philosophy you want to go wild about it in the gaming industry, post-recession or otherwise.


My plans were originally to divert the GTA V crisis, seems it brought back a lot of Lost and Damned fans back, I thought that such a gathering would have been nice had it not only been for discussions in the 'war room', so to speak.


Anyway i'm seeing quite number of comment regarding this upcoming 'dlc for GTA V' discussion, yet still no topic?

Where will I be able to drop my next bomb then!?


*goes munching on my cookies*

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Haha. Give me time... I will give you something else to munch on soon enough.

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But i'm having my own urge to unleash my next armada of wall of text ! ...


*shouting like Butch from the Republican Space Rangers*


Edit: actually, now that I think about it, I Do Not have my dlc ideas outlined in great detail, only merely on the scale of vague 'starting' ideas and not proper walls of text, which is probably a lot different than what you folks have prepared ...

Edited by Grievous

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Well I was going to be equally vague. It's just a setting possible characters and opening plot points and leaving it open ended for people to have fun with. I'll work on it soon... I guess... I haven't been feeling too good to be brutally honest.

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Can't be worse than my ideas, this time they're actually fairly generic.


The best I cooked up was the Angel of Death's return I had months ago, but aside from the introductory mission where Trevor is dragged around the desert, I don't know 'where' the story will actually be heading to other than some random drug land violence, and that's one story told too many as it is.

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That story stuck with me which made your comments on the monster thread seem rather odd. I guess I understand it but eh, whatever floats your boat. It's also very easy to be critical of yourself and I can already think of ways to take that story other places.


I think a problem with many story telling mediums at the moment is that they try too hard to be original or creative and the result is that it's really mediocre and contradicts it's own meaning. Some tried and true things aren't so bad to stick with, there's just a line on both sides.


I haven't planned out a full story but my imagination takes me places that aren't really true of a GTA storyline beyond the 'start' of what I've got in mind which is why I'm leaving it open ended. I don't mean to dangle this like some sort of meat in front of you but I'm thinking of how I should present and such.

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I drink red wine with my meat. No desert, although if obligatory, i'll have a second piece of meat.



Well the idea behind the Angel of Death DLC was to create yet another conflict between two characters who basically have the wrong conversation at the wrong time, which results into unnecessary bloodshed.

Same as how Johnny wanted to inquire about Ashley, an important matter to him, yet incidental to Trevor, the remnants of the Angels of Death resurfaced in a bid to welcome Trevor to their club, an act which they rarely performed to outsiders. But when Trevor shows a lack of interest in being part of gang, as he'll rather 'make his own gang/cult' if he really wanted to, the Angels took this refusal to great offense, and finishes him off for no good reason other than just, well, being a bunch of deadbeats acting like a bunch of deadbeats.


It was this concept of opposing forces due to different sets of ethics which I wanted to parody/transcend/remind about. Not necessarily as a 'eat it Trevor' fan suggestion.


Although, in a way, it also is. There's always a bigger fish ... if only Trevor could see it.


Story telling medium is suffering from flaws of current day consumers/viewers/readers, where often things are required to be delivered fast and simple, and self reflection and observations are in turn over-simplified.

This is particularly noticeable in games, including Rockstar's own, that receives huge praises for its story, even though the 'drama' is at times shoehorned or made out of shock value.

On the other hand people are often keen on discussing flaws and plot holes, so much that it is questionable as to 'what' it is exactly they appreciate in storytelling; the actual shape and size, the details, the 'logic' of the characters, the 'content' of the story, or, the 'manner' in which the story is told and the emotions that are conveyed from such methods.


That, and, there's this whole other issue on 'how to tell a story on a video game', on whether the storytelling device is best used by borrowing cinematic elements from films, or to make the players tell their own stories through pre-existing assets, or both, or how to use the gameplay's mechanic and systems to accurately emphasize and portray the story. The discussion is still going on, kicked off at the beginning of the current generation and still unresolved, if not worsen, by the beginning of this new next generation.


So at the moment, we're still on to our 'fan made list suggestion' thing on forums, seeing how many agrees or disagrees, and ... well, being content with it I suppose.


By the way aren't recent GTA storylines build up in a way that is precisely going on to a opposite direction from what 'traditional' GTA storylines were? and that it is precisely such deviation, and the surprise it made from it, that led to all these high praises of Rockstar's storytelling techniques? by precisely going to for the untraditional route?

Your idea might just as well predict what future GTA storylines may look like.


You know, this whole idea of 'impossible trinity' and three protagonist in one game ... long before GTA IV came out, we already had discussions for it years ago, back in 2006, where as Vice City Stories came to its release date, we were already guessing what the at-then inevitable 'San Andreas Stories' will look like.

Because of the PSP's limited technological capacity, we first argued whether it will include the whole of San Andreas or split it into three games and one for each city, and then it became a three UMD disc idea where you get to unlock content the more you play with each disc and so on.


One of the two notable ideas I remember having helped cooked up was something that end up becoming the Trinity Impossible, where there will be three protagonist, each operating in one distinct city, but each of their actions led to repercussions to another, and although they'll never cross paths, it becomes for the player an intriguing experience to see who will get away from the crisis with the least damage as possible.


The other idea was to have three separate stories set on three different periods of time, one for each city: the sixties with San Fierro, dealing with the rise of the post-Vietnam veterans who begins the biker gang movement, and how they establish a coast to coast link with Vice City. The seventies in Las Venturas, notably with arms dealer Phil Cassidy and the mysterious natures of the desert and a young Mike Torreno that explores the government's connection with the casino-run mafia. And finally the late eighties with the Grove Street gang in Los Santos, seemed like the obvious choice.


Today, post GTAV, I wonder why don't they explore more of the criminal underworld through the eyes of someone who isn't a gangbanger, for a change!

Franklin was something of a missed opportunity on that regard, but that's for another topic I suppose.

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No, it's REALLY away from what GTA is because the game at it's core is usually based on one city and definitely is always based in a fictional exaggerated version of the United States. There is no way what my thoughts instinctively led me to would occur. I do like my mixed foreign themes and having the whole world in focus but believe me if I were actually writing it this would never be, it's just the way my mind wanders.


Unless of course you expect to see GTA: Cusco, Marrakesh, Rome, St. Petersburg and Amsterdam or whatever fictional name they give those respective cities or wherever else imagination that I wouldn't want to see happens. Actually Amsterdam and Rotterdam kept their names so it's probable other cities did too.

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Hmm, it's not impossible, it's just going to demand a ridiculously huge amount of manpower to build five different sandbox playground, and all five must have an unique atmosphere and mission creativity to make it all feel apart from one another, instead of, say, Assassin's Creed franchise and their huge effort laid out in creating geographic and costume details but copy paste the exact same paper thin gameplay mechanic in each of their 'vibrant' cities, which gives you the impression that is more like different seasons rather than different cities.


It also has to be something that is technically proficient, or else it may turn out like Driver 3, and then get shamelessly mocked in San Andreas.

Yet that game had Miami, Nice, and Istanbul. And it was actually somewhat memorable in its own way, but we definitively would have preferred it to be made with Rockstar's tools and assets.


So, even if you have all the manpower and resources, you still wouldn't want to make a game for more than four-five years, or it's going to reach for disappointing results.

I greatly enjoyed L.A. Noire, but boy were those resources and work wasted on recreating such a Huge, and I mean HUGELY DETAILED sandbox with nothing to do in it. It works great as a walking simulator, where you get to explore a virtual representation of a gone by age, and most importantly in shiny and efficient graphics too, but Christ, I doubt that's what they had in mind.


Or ... you could always make it as a global-trotting third person shooter instead of actual sandboxes.

You could include 'limited' sandbox in order to re-create that 'feel' of getting in or out of a vehicle after arriving or leaving your destination, something that doesn't have an invisible wall to cut off your progression yet at the same time make it so that it is contained in an environment that doesn't go with huge unnecessary backdrops and locales.

Or save those backdrops for dlc.


It's quite possible, i'm sure before our lifetime is to pass we 'might' get lucky enough to see a fully functioning global-GTA prototype.

After all, sooner or later they'll have to move out of the usual Liberty, Vice and San Andreas.

They can't keep redesigning these same five cities ... can they?

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LA Noire had several problems including feature creep and as a Australian I'm still extremely angry what was done to those who worked on that game and did significant damage to the almost non existent game industry in this country.


I don't even want to start thinking about how it could be done, it certainly wouldn't be worth the effort for what most people play GTA for.

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Now I blame myself for even thought of mentioning L.A. Noire, effectively derailing the conversation in a triple barrel roll!


Actually though I think there Is quite a number of fans who appreciates GTA for reasons other than the carnage and whatnot, and in effect Rockstar's titles do take these people's interest into consideration.

Which is why their games have been appearing rather schizophrenic lately, you never know if it's truly serious or just a mesh of intentionally bad humor, and to those who want it wild find it to be too grounded whereas those who wished for less fantasy find their wishes out of the window.

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It's a side note and I felt it had to be mentioned. LA Noire was in development for a very long time and that's why it has the detail it had. Feature Creep was a big problem, they'd find someone doing something shiny and new and they absolutely had to have it in their game which of course took time then there was another shiny feature... I do like the game and wish for a sequel but yeah... anyway off topic conversation over.


I still question whether it would be worth the effort. You can appease the people who like such things in many other ways. To me it would just seem the investment would not be worth the return.

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20 missions instead of 11?? There were 22 missions in TLAD.

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There were twenty two missions in Lost and Damned, eleven for the first act, which is up to the Chinatown incident, and eleven for the second act.

This fan fiction adds eighteen new missions in total, nine more missions for act.

That means twenty for each act and forty in total.


I would have preferred to push it at forty seven, but I couldn't figure out ways to add seven more without dragging it, unless I were to add a new subplot, but that would have been akin to rewrite the whole game to some extent, which wasn't the goal of this extended edition.


Even though yes, one can argue that the whole Broker Chapter situation Is an added subplot, so ... yeah.


Up to you guys now to cook up seven more missions, go for it!


What's bizarre is that, despite only having twenty two missions, in the actual in-game statistic screen listed as twenty three missions once you've finished the game.

Unless they counted the end credits as an actual mission, it gave the impression that there were more than one way to complete the final stage. Similar to IV, if you look at the stats screen before and after completing the final levels, you'll see it counted even the levels made available only for the opposite choice you pick, therefor could not play.

And same thing occurs with GTA V from what I noticed with the heist side preparations.


So is there a hidden alternative to the final level of Lost and Damned that nobody has discovered yet?


In any case, lots of internet walkthrough made themselves look silly as they produce "in depth guide to the twenty three missions of Lost and Damned", and even if you just count them you'll see it's but twenty two.

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Black & White

I'm in the middle of this one. If Rockstar released an extend TL&D version, I would purchase it straight away. It won't happen though. Johnny, Clay, Terry and nearly everyone (apart from Dave and some low-level members) were wiped out and are now dead. I approve of an AOD-based DLC. I actually wanted to see them appear.

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