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BRITLAND

What a UKIP Britain would look like

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eroch

Why? Some of these (more nuclear plants, life sentences not being shortened, opposing wind farms) make sense, but others (half the things going border-line racism, the big brother level authoritarian prison system, etc.) are just crazy. It's like they say one nice thing to reel you in, then slip in something horrible when you aren't looking.

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sivispacem

More nuclear is good. So are wind farms though. Sentencing should be subject to review based on behaviour- life sentences are fundamentally stupid as a concept and the idea that murderers can't be rehabilitated simply false.

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eroch

So are wind farms though.

Wind farms are terrible forms of power for quite a few reasons.

-They are extremely situational, as they can only collect energy during peak points of a day.

-Even when they are collecting, they can't collect very much energy from the wind. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wind_turbine#Efficiencyduring peak times, they can collect up to 59% of the kinetic energy of the win passing through them, but most models collect less.

-They don't power enough homes to be worth it. Most turbines' MW output is far below 5 MW, or 5000 homes. By comparison, today's nuclear plants push well over 1000 MW, up to even 7000. Today's coal plants can at least 500 MW per unit.

 

 

 

Sentencing should be subject to review based on behaviour- life sentences are fundamentally stupid as a concept and the idea that murderers can't be rehabilitated simply false.

That depends. If somebody who is perfectly sane to begin with is given a life sentence with possibility of parole, then sure, I'd support letting him/her out if he's rehabilitated, and depending on the length of his/her life sentence. For instance, if somebody has a single life sentence with possibility of parole, then I'm sure he can be rehabilitated, and he can apply for parole later. But, if somebody has something extreme like 7 life sentences, then I don't think that you should be let out of prison. The amount of thinking and action planning that you would have to go through to kill a second, third, fourth, etc. person means that you clearly realized what you were doing. I'm of course still talking about sane people. If you're perfectly sane, have intent to kill, and still do it, repeatedly, then you should be punished for your crime.

 

Now, those with mental disabilities or conditions have a different story. It really depends on the condition. Some people really do have conditions where they just shouldn't be taken back in. These people should probably be in an asylum rather than prison, but some people truly cannot be saved. Not everyone is fixable.

Happier side. Most people are though. If you are diagnosed with a curable mental condition, and it has been proven that this condition either did or had a high likelihood of heavily influencing your decision to commit murder, then these people should, and usually do have possibility of parole.

 

Seriously though. We need to fund more nuclear, and start campaigns to educate people on what it really is. Too many people know all they do about nuclear from movies and tv. Also, research fusion.

Edited by sivispacem

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sivispacem

In respect of nuclear power:

 

1) Agreed, however the British weather is rather well suited to them and energy storage capability overcomes the situational aspect to some degree.

2) 59% efficiency is extremely high in comparison to thermal power plants. Even the most advanced commercial nuclear power plants have a thermal efficiency of only about 40-45%.

3) The lifetime cost-per-MW output of modern wind turbines is pretty competitive. It doesn't particularly matter that the raw power output per turbine is relatively low when the cost per turbine is also low.

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Mr. House

http://www.ukip.org/policies_for_people

 

Policy highlights from their Doncaster conference. What's everyone's opinion? I really don't think they are taking climate change seriously enough.

I remember a time when the words 'UKIP' and '(taken) seriously' were incompatible in a sentence.

 

Alas.

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eroch

In respect of nuclear power:

 

1) Agreed, however the British weather is rather well suited to them and energy storage capability overcomes the situational aspect to some degree.

2) 59% efficiency is extremely high in comparison to thermal power plants. Even the most advanced commercial nuclear power plants have a thermal efficiency of only about 40-45%.

3) The lifetime cost-per-MW output of modern wind turbines is pretty competitive. It doesn't particularly matter that the raw power output per turbine is relatively low when the cost per turbine is also low.

1. The weather may be suited to them, but turbines don't work as well in wet or humid air, which could be a problem for the UK.

2.Yes, it is extremely efficient in comparison to thermal plants, but that average I said is the maximum a turbine can reach, most reach less than 44%. Turbines can also deteriorate with age, or in the case of turbines at sea, erosion. There is also the fact that efficiency aside, typical fossil fuel plants produce exponentially more energy than turbines per square foot taken up.

3. As I said, turbines can lose efficiency over time; it can lower up to 1% per year. $1300 per KW a year.

 

Side facts:

-Wind turbines can affect the environment around them as they can redirect air flow. This can have an adverse effect on the environment, and can affect weather. This of course applies mainly to larger turbines.

-Regardless of cost, efficiency or environmental effects, turbines can only be placed in specific locations where wind flow is peak, so transporting said energy to people far away from these turbines would potentially require more energy than was output by the turbine.

-The largest wind power farm currently active is the Gansu Wind Farm in China. The farm http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gansu_Wind_Farmcurrently consists of > 3500 individual turbines with a current capacity of 7,965 MW. It's only in it's first phase. There are three more similarly sized phases planned for this plant.

The current capacity is exactly the same as the http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kashiwazaki-Kariwa_Nuclear_Power_PlantKashiwazaki-Kariwa Plant in Japan, a 7-generator plant. This plant probably takes up a fraction of a fraction of the space this first phase of the Gansu farm takes up. Wind power is extremely inefficient in terms of space taken up, especially for a nation like the UK.

 

Apologies for getting off topic. This UKIP party's full of crazies.

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.2D

Honestly I'm quite glad that UKIP won the Clacton by-election. I live in the area and he is well liked, and it is true that many people did vote for Douglas Carswell rather than UKIP. Many of the people here are older, having moved down here from mainly London (like myself) and from the people I've spoken to the people that do support UKIP (and there's no shortage of them) mainly look to UKIP so that places like Clacton don't become like London in terms of things like immigration and such, and in a way, having lived in London I do feel inclined to agree. These people aren't loud, arrogant racists. They're just disappointed in what's happening and are looking to something different, hoping for actual change. They may seem a bit weird, look and sound a bit rough, and it's a fairly rough, poor area, but they're by no means all stupid. There's also a lot of local issues that again, people only really feel that Douglas, under UKIP, will actually address.

 

I've not really stuck to the flow of conversation at all, but I thought I'd throw my 2 pence in regarding the by-election.

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Mr. House

I'd consider working class voters who support UKIP to be very very stupid, actually.

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.2D

Well it's certainly good to see some good old fashioned class hatred. The working class people who vote for UKIP do so because they feel entirely disconnected from the typical lying toff you see on the telly every day. I'm aware that UKIP's top brass isn't exactly made up of working class citizens, but they connect more and make more of an effort with the working class, which is why they won the by-election here. UKIP's success is democracy in action, you're not smarter than the 4+ million people that voted for them at the European elections, so get off of the high horse.

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Zook

Well it's certainly good to see some good old fashioned class hatred. The working class people who vote for UKIP do so because they feel entirely disconnected from the typical lying toff you see on the telly every day. I'm aware that UKIP's top brass isn't exactly made up of working class citizens, but they connect more and make more of an effort with the working class, which is why they won the by-election here. UKIP's success is democracy in action, you're not smarter than the 4+ million people that voted for them at the European elections, so get off of the high horse.

Knowing some of the people who vote Ukip he very well might be.

 

It just shows how intelligent they can be when they can't see past the charade, and fall head over heels or Farage because he drinks a pint in a pub and rambles on about foreigners. The party is made up of ex Tories and Thatcherites and is also bankrolled by ex Tory Donors. They will not act in the interests of the working class, and they can't see this.

Edited by Zook

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sivispacem

I find it deeply ironic that people upset with the spending cuts and austerity of a Conservative led government would voluntarily vote for an even further right-wing party with even fewer policies designed to help the poor. They either lack even the most basic understanding of party politics or are so gullible and/or xenophobic as to think that this is all the fault of foreigners.

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Rerxelend

.

Edited by Rerxelend

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GTA_stu

It just shows how intelligent they can be when they can't see past the charade, and fall head over heels or Farage because he drinks a pint in a pub and rambles on about foreigners. The party is made up of ex Tories and Thatcherites and is also bankrolled by ex Tory Donors. They will not act in the interests of the working class, and they can't see this.

 

 

 

I find it deeply ironic that people upset with the spending cuts and austerity of a Conservative led government would voluntarily vote for an even further right-wing party with even fewer policies designed to help the poor. They either lack even the most basic understanding of party politics or are so gullible and/or xenophobic as to think that this is all the fault of foreigners.

 

Or perhaps they actually do realise that UKIP don't smell of roses and do have their negative aspects particularly in regards to their economic policies, however they're willing to accept these shortcomings because they agree with them on other things like crime, defence, immigration or the EU? No political party will have everything that you like, but you have to bite the bullet and accept that on some things you will disagree, or for some people there's that one issue which is very important and so even though overall their views conflict with those of the party, they'll vote for them for that one issue.

 

Yes of course there are people that simply want to blame everything on foreigners and are ignorant to many things including to UKIP's policies, but to generalise and dismiss all UKIP voters/supporters in this manner is to be just as narrow minded and ignorant as the people you're criticising.

Edited by stu

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sivispacem

It really isn't, though.

 

The rest of UKIPs manifesto is either cherry-picked from old Conservative manifestos or completely pie-in-the-sky. Their appeal is almost universally amongst the Mail/Express lot and that's exactly who the manifesto panders to.

 

On issues like crime and punishment, they ignore conventional wisdom, like the fact that crime rates are dropping and ignore the fact that rehabilitation is much more successful at preventing repeat offending than custodial sentences. That should be a red flag to anyone who has ever looked into actual empirical studies on the subject, but it's a policy specifically designed to pander to people without this knowledge, the kind who just think locking up people and throwing away the key is a viable policy. The same could be said of their defence policy, hence why they see almost no backing from anyone in the MoD or armed forces proper on either a public or private level. But the kind of people they try to appeal to still have a very imperial view of Britain do lots of money for defence goes down well.

 

The rest of UKIPs policies are designed specifically to draw support from the same social groups as their anti-immigration policies. The idea apparently being to try and demonstrate they aren't a single-issue party without getting bogged down in the details of actually thinking up any policies on other subjects. So they've basically just read a year's worth of Daily Mail headlines and condensed them into a manifesto.

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Mr. House

Pertinent (read as: hilarious) poll.

 

o-COMRES-570.jpg

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sivispacem

I struggle to quantify that as anything other than xenophobia. Apparently free movement of labour is fine if we're the ones doing it, but god forbid those pesky hardworking Poles come to the UK and fill the gaping long-term vacancies in our semi-skilled secondary industries.

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.2D

God forbid we start becoming a minority in our own capital city.

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Mr. House

God forbid we start becoming a minority in our own capital city.

Pretty much says all we need to know about you.

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.2D

Hahah I'm sure it does, damn how disgusting of me to not want to see my people gradually decrease in percentage of the population. Love it.

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sivispacem

"Your people"? Most Brits are ethnically Scandinavian or French.

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.2D

Know many British people who identify as French or Scandinavian, do you?

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Mr. House

Know many British people who identify as French or Scandinavian, do you?

Well all of those damn ni**ers and brownies that you lament about living in London identify as British, so who the f*ck are you to say they're not?

 

Note that in the London boroughs that have high ethnic minority populations, this sort of racist garbage is largely absent between whites living there.

 

Not that it matters anyway, but 90 odd percent of British people identify as white British.

Edited by Myron

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sivispacem

The "British" aren't a homogenous group. There's no clearly defined British nationality, cultural heritage or set of social norms. It's a hodge podge of other, largely foreign, groups and their influences. What makes you think that these groups are less "British" in their outlook than the 90-something percent of people who identify as "British"?

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Carbonox

After what happened in Rotherham, I wouldn't be too surprised to see UKIP growing. Political correctness has been taken too far when such a heinous crime spree was allowed to keep going for that long with no intervention whatsoever.

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.2D

Just because something can't be quantified into legal documents, lists and numbers doesn't mean it doesn't exist.

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sivispacem

Just because something can't be quantified into legal documents, lists and numbers doesn't mean it doesn't exist.

Generally speaking, yes it does.

 

If something can't be quantified- especially when attempts to quantify it suggest that the exact opposite is true, there's generally a good chance that it doesn't actually exist. That's what differentiates between belief and fact- the presence of empirical evidence. The concept of "British" culture exists inasmuch as people claim to have an affinity towards it, but as a tangible or coherent idea? Not a chance. It all descends into subjective silliness, where my claim that foreign, Eastern European nationals living in Britain have a more typically "British" work ethic (for the sake of argument, let's say "protestant work ethic" is a reasonable interpretation of this) than many British citizens is more valid (by virtue of the fact that unemployment is lower, productivity is higher and the government-income-to-expenditure ratio of EU migrants higher than domestic citizens) than the assertion to the contrary made by opponents of this view.

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.2D

Are you sure you live in the UK? Everyone I've ever spoken to about this outside of a debate on the matter knows what is being referred to when someone talks about British culture. A problem I noticed living in parts of London is that areas that are so heavily and densely foreign are not adapting to the native culture of the land, because there's so little of it to actually adapt to in some places now. In many places they don't seem to make the slightest effort to adapt because there doesn't seem to be any point. In a way I really don't blame them, if I moved to France, I would still hold on to my British identity, and would raise my kids by them all the same. Especially if I moved to a foreign land and the area I moved to had a minority native population.

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sivispacem

So, what constitutes "British culture" then? Let's hear your apparently universal definition of what comprises British culture.

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gtamann123

I'd consider working class voters who support UKIP to be very very stupid, actually.

Are they the same thing as Blue Collar Republicans?

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BrownBear

The thing which I've always took "pride" in for being British, is that it's such a cultural melting pot, I think this is the best aspect of our culture and immigrants from the Caribbean and South Asia have done more to shape modern British culture than Brits have.

 

Why you would care about having immigrants here really isn't anything but xenophobia, seriously who gives a f*ck if London's majority non-British, doesn't that just make it a more colourful and interesting city?

 

I mean how boring would Britain be without the immigration really? We definitely wouldn't have half the music, food and general modern culture.

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