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Shine o' Vice


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Jeansowaty
28 minutes ago, elazulio said:

About being a TC gang war: I disagree completely. Constructive criticism should be perceived as a positive review, after all people tell you what can be enhanced. Although BlackStallion's English is broken (and thus a bit harsher to understand), he did make excellent points. I can't tell much about Flint's personality other than that he seeks revenge for his brother's death. And even then, what's his back story?

It is a better mod than Frosted Winter though, I have to agree with that as well. To the devs, consider developing your characters more and best of luck with the mod :)

Depends what you consider constructive criticism as. At the core of the definition, it's showing good and bad aspects and pointing out what COULD be changed. It's just an opinion and tip to help the progress but it's not FORCING someone to change it just because you don't like. While I wholeheartedly agree that the story could do some work so it's not a rehash of Vice City, people need to stop hiding under the facade of what constructive criticism actually is, so they don't become cancerous elitists. Let's pretend, if someone makes a mod and he put in a lot of work into it and he likes it, and then someone jumps in being all "hurr durr, this is sh*t you need to change it or else it will still be sh*t and you'll be sh*t!" (hyperboled on purpose, of course) then is that someone meant to listen? No, he doesn't have to. It's his work and ultimately he will do what he thinks is the best for it. Sure if it's half-assed and he brags about it that's another thing, but if someone puts in a lot of work but someone just jumps in like I said above, that is unhealthy. Sorry for venturing into off-topic, but some people have been doing this "constructive criticism" crap oftentimes without actually understanding how and why they should be doing it. 

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It makes no one an elitist if they give constructive feedback on a certain aspect or even multiple, but coming from someone who studies Game Development you do learn how to improve your work's quality through your teachers' constructive criticism, otherwise your work will, at best, not completely match its full potential or, at worst, suck. It's not a matter of forcing anyone into doing anything, after all this is a mere mod and not a new title being launched to the videogame market. What I don't exactly understand is why you assumed I or that lad Blackstallion were imposing any authority over the authors of this project? All I recall doing was giving my feedback on what, I assumed, could be improved (the characters seriously are quite undeveloped, so my point stands). Better quality mods always do bring in a bigger audience too, so if anything I'm trying to help with my opinion.

Speaking of defining constructive criticism, you do have quite the history on taking criticism just fine, so of course, you would know its definition from start to finish and backwards by now, wouldn't you? I rest my case, I won't post no more off-topic content any further.

Edited by elazulio
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Jeansowaty

I wasn't. I just wanted to share my point on constructive criticism. Your post was okay but quite many don't understand the real point of it. It wasn't exactly aimed at you or BlackStallion, don't take it like that :)

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Jinx.

I disagree about that. Sorry, but what you mention is entirely justified when the only thing an author can say is "lul nuub you no like eet you make eet" or something by the lines when solid criticism is given, which can even be said about certain aspects of this mod like that bulldozer mission thing, for example. Ofcourse I won't ignore the fact that there is indeed rude ways of criticising, like Brook's posts about those HUD icons on the GTA 1991 thread, which is not OK either.

 

Yes, it's one thing to give good and bad criticism, and another to be an ass about it, just like you said. You can't pamper everyone until they make mediocre mods, and you can't be a jerk until the community leaves forever.

 

If you're gonna complain about elitism, check out how this sub looked before 2015/2016.

Edited by Jinx.
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Speccy
On 4/28/2020 at 11:45 AM, BlackStallionDX said:

So, maybe is late, but better now

 

Shine'O'Vice is better than Frosted Winter, but not a perfect, as mayne other TC as well.

   Which thing make SOV better than FS - scenario. It's not too flat like FSs story and dialogues is much better. Also map changes looks bit better (many changes in FS, which maden by Dimzet is really suck). NPC's models looks good too. Simillar to VCS, so...they looks better than VC's one. Vehicles, they don't looks like VC's style or VCS, but they looks pretty cool in SOV own style.

 

Now about thing make sick at this.

 

  Story intested at start and at end, but mainline is bad. Many characters is too flat. Also, we don't know anything bout protogonist personality (by a way, when we play VC, we know much bout Tommy, he badass mafia mobster, with big ambitions, Sonny scared by him), but...

Flint is like a Claude. Maybe it's not a bad, but this is lack of story. Also we don't know who was his brother. Just a brother and it all.

Jeff - parody on Rosenberg, but...snif-snif...it's all what i can say bout him.

Enrico - his personality  is'nt better than Jeff just a guy from Cunban gang, in some cutscenes we can see some intersting fact bout him, but...i can't say much bore bout him - bully, and he very fall in love with gangwars.
Other characters, just like in Frosted Winter one, just functionaly, but is totally empty.

 

Many interiors (which made from scratch, not a VCS or SA interiors) looks weird, very thin wall. Look how it Rockstar does in San Andreas or Vice City, or GTA3. Also prelight looks very lazy. Some characters models looks weird. They don't fit to VCS or VC style. Really, Flint looks like his face taken from diffrent game, maybe Manhunt 2 or some 00's photorealistic game, like Matrix or something like it.

 

So what we get? Not bad. But i can't call it like "looks like rockstar did it", it's strong TC, but not more. My raiting 7\10.


I agree with all the points you raise. Outlining flaws in this manner seems perfectly neutral to me and I will be referencing some things you have pointed out throughout development. I encourage more feedback to be posted here, as the pace on Discord makes it harder to keep up with. There's a lot of work to be done until we get close to the "Looks like Rockstar did it" target with the limited resources we have. That's not an excuse, it's just why we put focus on certain areas over others. That being said, I'm seeing a lot of positive recognition for our work.

I'm naive to say the following...

Maybe when the time is right, someone at Rockstar recognizes the potential of a mobile port for our mod. By taking up the project and making it part of the official Grand Theft Auto lineup there is a favourable tradeoff in terms of effort and profit potential on their part. The mobile market is a perfect platform for porting older titles, but under special circumstances, a new release is also something to consider. I have a degree in management, finance and economics;
it makes perfect sense but I wouldn't put my money on it :D
 

Edited by Speccy
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Cpt. Rookie

The unforgivable flaw of Shine'o'Vice is

Spoiler

the lack of Vietnam war references in Phil's defence mission

 

#constructivecriticism

Edited by Cpt. Rookie
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lolleroz

There isn't much you can do for characters not to feel 'flat' without voice acting though lol. And I dunno about others but for me, the main selling point is fun missions & some sandboxy feature that will let players sink in many hours before getting bored. Just like how SA had gang wars, tons of activities, Chinatown Wars had its drug dealing, TBoGT had drug wars, etc. That's probably  IMO the selling point of this mod since Beginnit wanted some kind of drug dealing system from what I remember and thats what I'm hyped for.  Sure, the story will be fun to play, but how many times? once, twice?  lets be realistic you're not going to have believable characters like GTA 4, theres no way to even have facial animations. RPGs often get around with no dialogue because they use stuff like notes, etc and have dialogue systems where you can immerse yourself with different choices.  IMO if you're aiming for Rockstar tier quality you should be thinking of Chinatown Wars... it had no voice acting also, but the fun overall gameplay, missions, activities, made it worth playing. Over and over again. Sure you could romanticize about getting voice actors and stuff and that works with something like mods for Fallout games but it's just not worth the effort in the long run for a project like this, especially when it's been dragged on for so long.

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HOW'S ANNIE?
9 hours ago, Speccy said:


Maybe when the time is right, someone at Rockstar recognizes the potential of a mobile port for our mod. By taking up the project and making it part of the official Grand Theft Auto lineup there is a favourable tradeoff in terms of effort and profit potential on their part. The mobile market is a perfect platform for porting older titles, but under special circumstances, a new release is also something to consider. I have a degree in management, finance and economics; it makes perfect sense but I wouldn't put my money on it :D
 

In a completely hypothetical world, would you ever consider reaching out to Take Two/Rockstar when this mod is in a more polished state? I mean knowing them you'd probably hit a brick wall, the creative heads there really don't like outsiders making a footprint on their series.

 

But hey, I can only imagine that if R* threw in some exclusive GTA Online content (clothing, cash bonuses, etc) for people who bought SOV it would probably sell well on that merit alone. All still wishful thinking however.

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deltaCJ

For everyone here talking about TC's and constructive criticism.

On this website a lot confuse constructive and destructive criticism a lot, and don't seem the difference between the two.

 

There is absolutely no excuse to use profanity, to compare, to belittle, or to insult a persons work and try to slide it as "criticism".

Absolute horse sh*t.

 

If you tell me "This map could be better, I feel that some places should be optimized and modeled better." (THIS IS CRITICISM)

I would be happy you pointed it out.

On the other hand, if the sewage that is spewed out your mouth is you trying your best Gordon Ramsey impression, I could careless what you believe.

In fact unless you are a millionaire, a god, or a king I won't take your "criticism" for absolute sh*t.

Half of the people on these forums are literal perfectionists, and when they see a mod they like they want it to be a mod under THEIR visions.

Giving "ideas" and "criticism" when it's literally their fantasies and wishes they want.

 

The ONLY exception I'll make if it's blatant sh*t. Like a modpack, or a literal bundle of sh*t that nobody in their life would bother praising. (Kupyansk, I know it's a "joke" mod but still who the absolute f*ck would even bother playing that....) 

Other than that, any ORIGINAL AND AUTHENTIC WORK is fine by me as long as it's pleasing to the eye.

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Speccy
1 hour ago, HOW'S ANNIE? said:

In a completely hypothetical world, would you ever consider reaching out to Take Two/Rockstar when this mod is in a more polished state? I mean knowing them you'd probably hit a brick wall, the creative heads there really don't like outsiders making a footprint on their series.

 

But hey, I can only imagine that if R* threw in some exclusive GTA Online content (clothing, cash bonuses, etc) for people who bought SOV it would probably sell well on that merit alone. All still wishful thinking however.

In indeed a very hypothetical world, as you said, it's gonna have to be as good as it can get before I'd even attempt it. Then I'd have to come up with a good way to get their attention...

Edited by Speccy
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Ash_735
13 hours ago, Jinx. said:

If you're gonna complain about elitism, check out how this sub looked before 2015/2016.

Ironically a period in time that saw major progress and reinventions of certain projects that became huge.

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maya(#4968)
On 4/28/2020 at 8:13 PM, BlackStallionDX said:

i can't get good advice for LCS PC, VCS PC or Underground for example, and don't giving review for those mods (i'm don't love converted map, cuz i can't call it as mod, just port. I mean, when companies make port of their game to PC, nobody said ooowwww! this cool!)

So, when i've see mods like SOV or Frosted Winter i can review they, cuz they provin own content and i respect it.

wasn't underground is making their own map of chicago (midway)?

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BlackStallionDX
2 hours ago, maya(#4968) said:

wasn't underground is making their own map of chicago (midway)?

I've saw what they did, and it looks terrible, not bout style, i talkin bout design, very boring. Remove midway was an good idea.

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2 hours ago, BlackStallionDX said:

I've saw what they did, and it looks terrible, not bout style, i talkin bout design, very boring. Remove midway was an good idea.

As the lead developer, in our defense, we at least try to aim for a closer style of a 3D era city. Remind me what your map mods are like in terms of design? Not to mention, we're planning the whole thing carefully and it's still very undeveloped, but I'd rather take a little longer and it do it right than do an attempt of an unfitting "HD map". But this topic is not meant for such discussions, if you want to respond any further, PM me.

 

20 hours ago, Speccy said:


I agree with all the points you raise. Outlining flaws in this manner seems perfectly neutral to me and I will be referencing some things you have pointed out throughout development. I encourage more feedback to be posted here, as the pace on Discord makes it harder to keep up with. 
 

Precisely, and you will hear it! However, don't feel forced into doing anything you don't quite agree with 😛

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universetwisters
4 hours ago, BlackStallionDX said:

I've saw what they did, and it looks terrible, not bout style, i talkin bout design, very boring. Remove midway was an good idea.

 

Are you only saying that just because you're bitter about how unpopular your tiki island/russian city/wasteland mods are here?

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BlackStallionDX
1 hour ago, universetwisters said:

 

Are you only saying that just because you're bitter about how unpopular your tiki island/russian city/wasteland mods are here?

Nope. I've really can't see in their concept of this city something closed to 3D-era vibes. It's looks like 2D-era map with 3D-era assets. Mafia Stories, i hope you remember this TC, was haved better map design. Also, for example Carcer City, i don't remember author's nickname, maybe Bam, or something, anyway, Carcer City TC looks worsted then Mafia Stories. Then, i've remember an State of Liberty, this TC was made by X-Eti, or something, so, his map design looks worst. Really blocky and boring. So Midway, looks simmilar. Blocky and boring.

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Datalvarezguy
2 minutes ago, BlackStallionDX said:

Nope. I've really can't see in their concept of this city something closed to 3D-era vibes. It's looks like 2D-era map with 3D-era assets. Mafia Stories, i hope you remember this TC, was haved better map design. Also, for example Carcer City, i don't remember author's nickname, maybe Bam, or something, anyway, Carcer City TC looks worsted then Mafia Stories. Then, i've remember an State of Liberty, this TC was made by X-Eti, or something, so, his map design looks worst. Really blocky and boring. So Midway, looks simmilar. Blocky and boring.

Curiosity speaking here, but I've seen you do maps of your native Russia, a place known for being kinda blocky itself. How do you design maps like those to not be blocky?

Or hell, say, what makes a map more varied and circled?

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BlackStallionDX
9 minutes ago, Datalvarezguy said:

Curiosity speaking here, but I've seen you do maps of your native Russia, a place known for being kinda blocky itself. How do you design maps like those to not be blocky?

Or hell, say, what makes a map more varied and circled?

Yep. Older realese have it. But've hate older realese. If you wanna see not blocky look at laters Russian Theft Auto. Also - when i ve made Russian Theft Auto beta 1, there does have blocky design. After time, i've makin my personal constructor for Map Editor, so, ar fisr time ir was blocky. But now not.

 

Whats how Midway looks a like, like

ea93623b3eb1b4503c526339dd897cff--manhat

 

Now look at full underground map

 

Sem+t%25C3%25ADtulo.jpg

 

New cities doesnt fit to all map style

 

Too blocky, maybe realistic, but blocky

And how looks Liberty City

image.jpg

Not blocky, not realistic, yeah, but not blocky.

 

So what about me, well

 

Russian Theft Auto beta 1, not blocky

MAP1.jpg

Beta 3, blocky

15541260136008_egtw_lua5gu.jpg

Final cut, beta 4, not blocky

15852899883757_xjulxexw-pk.jpg

 

Edited by BlackStallionDX
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There's actually a difference between blocky and organic, you're aware of that, right? Your map might not be blocky, but it feels as such.

 

And LC is not based off of New York City, it's just a generic city based off of an aglomerate of numerous American cities (NYC, Chicago, New Jersey, etc). If anything, it's laid out similarly to NYC.

Edited by elazulio
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BlackStallionDX
3 minutes ago, elazulio said:

There's actually a difference between blocky and organic, you're aware of that, right? Your map might not be blocky, but it feels as such.

 

And LC is not based off of New York City, it's just a generic city based off of an aglomerate of numerous American cities (NYC, Chicago, New Jersey, etc). If anything, it's laid out similarly to NYC.

Yeah-yeah, you right, you and your team, does really lore-friendy to R*games map design, i'm fools and blind, And i made blocky map. Yeah-yeah

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Save your irony for yourself, Chandler Bing. For someone who made quite a great point in what's wrong with SoV, you're pretty bad at taking some of the same medicine yourself, not to mention you didn't criticize my map but rather said it was terrible and should get deleted whilst I defended it with valid arguments. I rest my case, big man!

Edit: Just noticed now that you uploaded Mainland Liberty's map. You're also under the knowledge that Midway is not using an outdated 2005 map, correct?

Edit2: It's getting really off-topic, I apologize for that! Can we get back into the topic at hand?

Edited by elazulio
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BlackStallionDX
13 minutes ago, elazulio said:

Save your irony for yourself, Chandler Bing. For someone who made quite a great point in what's wrong with SoV, you're pretty bad at taking some of the same medicine yourself, not to mention you didn't criticize my map but rather said it was terrible and should get deleted whilst I defended it with valid arguments. I rest my case, big man!

PS.: Just noticed now that you uploaded Mainland Liberty's map. You're also under the knowledge that Midway is not using an outdated 2005 map, correct?

But what?  you're pretty bad at taking some of the same medicine yourself, where you're see it? I don't mind where you a take it. I've showin, progress on various builds of my map, said, yep, one of builds was a blocky, and i really hate this build, cuz design of this build was a worst, then, i've improve my personal assets list and made newest reales, less blocky, with more various road and landscape models. Where i said, "you just don't understand" nope, i don't said somethings. Guy ask me. bout how i've did maps, i've show him.

Edited by BlackStallionDX
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deltaCJ

In my opinion both of you guys are wrong.

You guys are literally having a dick swinging contest as we speak.

 

GTAForums at it's best.

(One of the reasons I despise Underground. A whole team of people that think they're top sh*t. No I'm not talking about you Blue. I thought Dkluin was your worst enemy anyways.)

But I don't let bias get in the way, where I then start speaking out of my ass like you two are currently doing. 

(And don't apologize for making the topic go off-topic. Shouldn't of been arguing over stupidity.)

 

Now can the topic go back to Shine O' Vice??

 

 

 

 

@Speccy How's cutscenes going? Were you able to make a breakthrough? There's many opcodes in the SCM that can help you setup cutscenes easier.

Edited by deltaCJ
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Ash_735

The best part is, there ARE valid points being made, just wrapped up in insults and being a dick 😛 I agree about how a lot of fan maps seems to go for that "My First Sims House" approach of just squaring everything off and people do need to study maps and areas more to do a more natural feeling design, but at the same time, BlackStallion basically insulted re:LCS and VCS PC by calling them not review worthy and not wow because anyone can port apparently, negating the work that goes into said porting and fixing.

Edited by Ash_735
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BlackStallionDX
5 hours ago, Ash_735 said:

The best part is, there ARE valid points being made, just wrapped up in insults and being a dick 😛 I agree about how a lot of fan maps seems to go for that "My First Sims House" approach of just squaring everything off and people do need to study maps and areas more to do a more natural feeling design, but at the same time, BlackStallion basically insulted re:LCS and VCS PC by calling them not review worthy and not wow because anyone can port apparently, negating the work that goes into said porting and fixing.

Nope. I've said its not an TC, as scrath work or something. For example, theresnot from GTA-modding, - Morroblivion and Skywind, first - bald map porting with all quest and little updated works. But Skywind - everyting, based on Morrowind and re-creating from scratch. It's too big diffrents work, which i can put at one category.

But anyway, when i've see at Stories-PC-ports  i'cant see where is personal scratch or simillar to that works. So, converted map, skins, vehicles and others....hmmm...maden by R*games, not by you, so how i can review it? There what's i mean. If you wanna hear my review on converted mod, take a shot.

- LCS, - at this time best port, yeah. I've saw little improvements on various vehicles. But otherwise, just a port, not a personal work.

- VCS, - if don't talk bout converted stuff, but animation looks weird in latest build, i've saw bit more personal activites, like some seasons events.

- Underground, - ummm...theres is easy to say. Cuz, as i said, newest cities looks does'nt fit to original R*games design. But others - it's general problem for me - whay cities doesn't change to one timeline, looks like we get a doctor Brown on our deck(VC in 80s, SA in 90s, LC in 00s), it lookin not good. But this conversion. And if we talk bout personal work on this mod - i don't like it.

As you see, i'can't rate converted stuff. So, there what's i mean. Maybe some things, which i said, can be wrote not well, yeah, i can understand english language well, but badly talkin or writing. But anyway, i don't have problems with converted stuff or oldy games style too. But, if bout first - i can't rate it, cuz it not personal work, bout 2-nd, i've done some map lookin closely to old games style, from early 00s, and it was fun, but a bit easy for me. So, there why i don't wanna made someting in old-style. I prefer later 00s games style. I hope we all understand each others.

Edited by BlackStallionDX
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deadasfuqboi

Okay, I had it. Don't care no more. Let's move on. Seriously, what's gotten into you BlackStallion? I don't dislike you or hate you or anything but right now you're being almost obnoxious right now.

Edited by deadasfuqboi
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BlackStallionDX
47 minutes ago, deadasfuqboi said:

Okay, I had it. Don't care no more. Let's move on. Seriously, what's gotten into you BlackStallion? I don't dislike you or hate you or anything but right now you're being almost obnoxious right now.

I've said my imo. And that all. Actually, i don't really care bout another TC, but if someone wanna my imo, there is.

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Ash_735
2 hours ago, BlackStallionDX said:

- LCS, - at this time best port, yeah. I've saw little improvements on various vehicles. But otherwise, just a port, not a personal work.

- VCS, - if don't talk bout converted stuff, but animation looks weird in latest build, i've saw bit more personal activites, like some seasons events.

To be honest, this is a good thing because you've NOT noticed all the custom work, the fact that you just think it's the same files goes to show how close we've got to mimicking the style and improving, for example most of the VCS PC vehicles have remade textures, most of the map has fixed and improved textures (VCS had a lot of broken textures and collisions), menus have been re-designed completely, HUD design isn't just a carbon copy of the PS2 one, etc, and this is what you're missing when people ask for something more lore friendly, the work I've done on VCS PC along with the rest of the team underwent a lot of revisions and detailing to make sure it felt as Rockstar as possible and I can say near enough the same amount of focus went in with the re:LCS team. If we just used the original files it would look sh*t, if we just did a straight port without fixes, it would be bad.

 

So thank you, you've just proved that we've done a good job because you just think we've just threw the original files in there and that's it. :) btw go try out the hidden vehicle stuff in VCS PC such as the Monster Truck which even has its own set of time trial missions, I can assure you those were not in the original game 😛 

Edited by Ash_735
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BlackStallionDX
7 minutes ago, Ash_735 said:

To be honest, this is a good thing because you've NOT noticed all the custom work, the fact that you just thing it's the same files goes to show how close we've got to mimicking the style and improving, for example most of the VCS PC vehicles have remade textures, most of the map has fixed and improved textures (VCS had a lot of broken textures and collisions), menus have been re-designed completely, HUD design isn't just a carbon copy of the PS2 one, etc, and this is what you're missing when people ask for something more lore friendly, the work I've done on VCS PC along with the rest of the team underwent a lot of revisions and detailing to make sure it felt as Rockstar as possible and I can say near enough the same amount of focus went in with the re:LCS team. If we just used the original files it would look sh*t, if we just did a straight port without fixes, it would be bad.

 

So thank you, you've just proved that we've done a good job because you just think we've just threw the original files in there and that's it. :) btw go try out the hidden vehicle stuff in VCS PC such as the Monster Truck which even has its own set of time trial missions, I can assure you those were not in the original game 😛 

Yeah, i know about improvements out from original games, i've played stories on PSP-emulation. So as i said, i don't have any bad vibes for mods like this, of course, if they did lore friendly. But as i said for hard to rate it like Total Conversion, but yeah, i respect it like good port, maybe in some case as updated pc-edition (like GTA3 on XBOX360, were many aspect was a changed and improvement, but it still GTA3). Just for understand my stand - i don't have bad vines to converted map or 3dera-style. But when, someone askin me, what can i say, bout port as total conversion (for me TC- mean scratch or half-scratch work), i dunno know what's say bout. But if lookin at VCS or LCS PC ports an converted port (really, this forum need specific categoty for full scratch TC and converted TC), yeah it's very impresive work on making better PC-port. So, i hope you understand my stand - just for me, port, with impovement anf scratch made TC, can't be  in one category.

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Elissay

Oh come on people , all VCSPE, ReLCS, Underground and Tiki Islands are the greatest TC and also my personal Top mods why do you have to fight just for a little criticism? 

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