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HeliWolf420

DC Cinematic Universe (Batman, Supes, Aquaman, and more)

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Leftist Bastard

It might be slightly unfair I suppose, when it comes to both dissent and praise but in the end a director's job is to use all the pieces to make a great cohesive whole. Snyder should have seen the problems and tried to repair what was broken.

 

Also I think BvS is hot garbage outside of Affleck but I actually liked the Martha moment. It made sense to me.

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darthYENIK

I still find it insane that they made Batman kill. POOF one of the most important parts of his character, crucial to his morality and so many facets of his character and the world of Batman just gone for a bit more edge. This is not an Elseworlds scenario or anything either, its the one we're stuck with for the duration of this DCU!

Supposedly he kills because he's lost his way. Jason Todd or whichever Robin was killed by Joker, and he's gone apesh*t on crime ever since. Which is something that he does when a Robin dies. He goes ballistic on crime, and goes overboard, generally stopping at killing. But, BvS does a terrible job of pointing that out, and it's an arc that isn't resolved by the end of the movie, which makes Batman just look homicidal. He's killing killers so it's not as bad as it looks, but Batman should be better than that, and if he's going overboard on crime fighting, he needs to at least acknowledge that, or have Alfred tell him that, or have something to point out very blatantly to the audience that he's lost his way, and isn't just always a killer.

 

Edit: as for Snyder taking the heat, as the director, it's his job to look at the script and translate it to film. That includes seeing something like the "Martha" moment and realizing that it's a horribly tacky and thin excuse for Batman and Superman to find a balance, or at least make it work with proper dialogue that takes away tackiness. The director is the right person to blame for bad filmmaking 99% of the time.

Edited by darthYENIK

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Leftist Bastard

 

I still find it insane that they made Batman kill. POOF one of the most important parts of his character, crucial to his morality and so many facets of his character and the world of Batman just gone for a bit more edge. This is not an Elseworlds scenario or anything either, its the one we're stuck with for the duration of this DCU!

Supposedly he kills because he's lost his way. Jason Todd or whichever Robin was killed by Joker, and he's gone apesh*t on crime ever since. Which is something that he does when a Robin dies. He goes ballistic on crime, and goes overboard, generally stopping at killing. But, BvS does a terrible job of pointing that out, and it's an arc that isn't resolved by the end of the movie, which makes Batman just look homicidal. He's killing killers so it's not as bad as it looks, but Batman should be better than that, and if he's going overboard on crime fighting, he needs to at least acknowledge that, or have Alfred tell him that, or have something to point out very blatantly to the audience that he's lost his way, and isn't just always a killer.

 

Edit: as for Snyder taking the heat, as the director, it's his job to look at the script and translate it to film. That includes seeing something like the "Martha" moment and realizing that it's a horribly tacky and thin excuse for Batman and Superman to find a balance, or at least make it work with proper dialogue that takes away tackiness. The director is the right person to blame for bad filmmaking 99% of the time.

 

I get that its meant to be him losing his way and what not but that's just not how you should introduce your Batman. Maybe down the line in the DCU that could have been interesting to see but him not killing is just so important to him, I feel. So many interesting moral dilemmas are raised by his reluctance to kill that are just gone when he goes psycho.

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Shakermaker

BvS doesn't even seem to be a movie to me. It's just easter eggs, character presentation and cinematic universe preparation stuff. Batman and Superman only fight because they have to. The "Martha" thing makes sense but it was poorly executed in my opinion. The way it came out seemed ridiculous.

It's a shame because the movie had a lot of potential. I seriously hope that the DC team is going to get things straight for the Justice League film.

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Vigilante88

People were/are way too harsh about BvS. It was clearly just a set up of what's to come in the future. I thought it was good for what it is.. and I really like Affleck as Batman. I hope he plays Batman for as long as possible

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HaythamKenway

Supposedly he kills because he's lost his way. Jason Todd or whichever Robin was killed by Joker, and he's gone apesh*t on crime ever since. Which is something that he does when a Robin dies. He goes ballistic on crime, and goes overboard, generally stopping at killing. But, BvS does a terrible job of pointing that out, and it's an arc that isn't resolved by the end of the movie, which makes Batman just look homicidal. He's killing killers so it's not as bad as it looks, but Batman should be better than that, and if he's going overboard on crime fighting, he needs to at least acknowledge that, or have Alfred tell him that, or have something to point out very blatantly to the audience that he's lost his way, and isn't just always a killer.

Edit: as for Snyder taking the heat, as the director, it's his job to look at the script and translate it to film. That includes seeing something like the "Martha" moment and realizing that it's a horribly tacky and thin excuse for Batman and Superman to find a balance, or at least make it work with proper dialogue that takes away tackiness. The director is the right person to blame for bad filmmaking 99% of the time.

I think I'll disagree here. Snyder messed a lot of things up, but Batman's arc wasn't one of them, imo. He had Alfred as the voice of reason and conscience throughout the entire movie, we are told from multiple sources that Batman is escalating his war and while Batman doesn't really have an overt moment of clarity and self-reflection like, say, Black Panther did in CA:CW, we can clearly see he's haunted and out of his element throughout the entire picture. I never felt the need for him to turn to the camera and explicitly state what goes on in his head like T'Challa does.

 

But I can see how that might have been insufficient. The problem is similar as with Clark himself in MoS, as I wrote about here before. Snyder puts too much stock in the audience translating their preexisting notions of these characters onto his adaptations, instead of doing the hard work of building them from the ground up. Clark suffered because of how choppy MoS was and also because of how the theme of his fathers grooming him into becoming Superman overshadowed his own personal character development and motivations. He was, part intentionally, part unintentionally, a blank slate for Jor-El, Pa Kent and the audience to project onto. And in BvS he's just a supporting character in The Batman Show 2015.

 

As I've said, I think that BvS's Bats is executed well overall, but true, the foundations of his character are shaky and fasttracked. We know that Bruce is at his lowest here, but we never see how that is different from the normal. We never saw this depiction of Batman. Snyder rushes straight into the territory that Nolan ventured in his final movie - after hours worth of careful character building. We know "Batman", we know how "Batman" should act, but we don't know this Batman. And that's the important bit. Snyder counts on the audience being generally acquainted with Batman's character and carrying that knowledge over to his movie and then just casually subverts everything we expect without properly elaborating on just what makes this version of Batman tick. That can be terribly jarring and misleading.

 

I really don't think Batman Begins 2.0 would be the solution, we don't need to see that all over again and like I said, overall I was satisfied with the result, but a movie with a premise like BvS was just a hard place to introduce a brand new version of Batman.

Edited by HaythamKenway

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IDredMan

It might not be THAT bad.

You'd be surprised how much easier it is to edit/rewrite than it is to write from scratch.

 

That's why scripts take about 2 or 3 months to write.

And why Suicide Squad and Fant4stic had sh*tty f*cking scripts. The scripts were written in 4 weeks and 3 weeks (If my Google sources were correct), respectively. That's not even enough time to get a first draft out.

 

And about who to blame.

You'll notice for a lot of movies, the director is also credited as a writer (Not to be confused with a story credit). A lot of Tarentino films. The Nolan trilogy. The Cornetto trilogy.

 

When the director is in on the writing process, it's almost always better than when the director is delivered a script he's unfamiliar with.

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Is this The Guy?

People were/are way too harsh about BvS. It was clearly just a set up of what's to come in the future. I thought it was good for what it is.. and I really like Affleck as Batman. I hope he plays Batman for as long as possible

Yeah I actually didn't hate it and I watched it a couple times. I liked BVS much more than I liked the suicide one

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Vigilante88

 

People were/are way too harsh about BvS. It was clearly just a set up of what's to come in the future. I thought it was good for what it is.. and I really like Affleck as Batman. I hope he plays Batman for as long as possible

Yeah I actually didn't hate it and I watched it a couple times. I liked BVS much more than I liked the suicide one

I liked them both.. and Deadpool. But I didn't care for the other ones. The only current Marvel characters I like are Quicksilver/Deadpool. (and of course Black Widow)

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Leftist Bastard

People were/are way too harsh about BvS. It was clearly just a set up of what's to come in the future. I thought it was good for what it is.. and I really like Affleck as Batman. I hope he plays Batman for as long as possible

That's not very good justification IMO. A movie should stand on its own regardless of what comes after it, using it as a stepping stone for other movies is arguably in itself bad writing.

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Vigilante88

 

People were/are way too harsh about BvS. It was clearly just a set up of what's to come in the future. I thought it was good for what it is.. and I really like Affleck as Batman. I hope he plays Batman for as long as possible

 

That's not very good justification IMO. A movie should stand on its own regardless of what comes after it, using it as a stepping stone for other movies is arguably in itself bad writing.I liked the story.. and the action scenes. But that's also the only thing I didn't like about it. It needed more action scenes. Maybe that's just me tho.. I like long sequences of ass kicking/killing (John Wick, Kingsman, Kickass, Deadpool etc.) I'm hoping for tons of action in Justice League and the solo Batman film. Not too worried about the writing at all Edited by gtaoplayer

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SmokesWithCigs

People were/are way too harsh about BvS. It was clearly just a set up of what's to come in the future. I thought it was good for what it is.. and I really like Affleck as Batman. I hope he plays Batman for as long as possible

for real. shut up internet! just shut the hell up you talk too much and you think you know everything.

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Natasha

I like long sequences of ass kicking/killing (John Wick, Kingsman, Kickass, Deadpool etc.) I'm hoping for tons of action in Justice League and the solo Batman film. Not too worried about the writing at all

See I find when the action gets so long, I start losing focus. Several plot twists with 10 minute scenes is cool. But when it's a 40 minute mashup I start to seriously lose interest sadly.

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Flash525

I find myself agreeing that Dawn of Justice wasn't as bad as critics made it out to be. I thought it was a fairly solid film, with the exception of the dream sequences and Snyder's casting of Lex Luthor. I think Affleck has nailed Batman too; best one we've had in my opinion, and he was dark and gritty like he should be.

 

I have high hopes for the remainder of the DCEU, although I do wonder whether they're rushing ahead a little, what with the directional issues regarding the Batman and Flash films, and all the other films they've got in the pipework. It's almost like they're trying to catch up with the MCU, when they really don't need too; they're telling a different kind of story.

 

I also wonder at this point whether it would be better to combine some films (such as Flash & Cyborg); they'll no doubt have their origin stories incorperated into the Justice League film(s), not that we don't mostly know about them anyway, especially Flash (tv show). The fact that they're already superpowered somewhat neglects the desire for an origin story, and I'd rather they not throw in a whole bunch of prequel films like they're doing with Wonder Woman. She's the exception, because I suspect they wanted to establish her character (and actress) before giving her a solo film.

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Natasha

I find myself agreeing that Dawn of Justice wasn't as bad as critics made it out to be.

This is very true, it got an awful amount of bashing for not the greatest of reason's I would say.

 

with the exception of the dream sequences and Snyder's casting of Lex Luthor.

I don't think this was a bad casting in particular, perhaps just bad scripting, the man never had much to go on I don't think.

 

I think Affleck has nailed Batman too; best one we've had in my opinion, and he was dark and gritty like he should be.

Totally agree, he's been awesome, although his persona of Bruce Wayne could lighten up a little, but I dare say they're trying to convey how Batman is taking over Bruce on a daily basis now to some extent.

 

I have high hopes for the remainder of the DCEU, although I do wonder whether they're rushing ahead a little, what with the directional issues regarding the Batman and Flash films, and all the other films they've got in the pipework. It's almost like they're trying to catch up with the MCU, when they really don't need too; they're telling a different kind of story.

I also hope they all come out on top, but the trouble is that they are actually playing catchup, even though no one's bothered, WB clearly are, they want to cash in as quickly as possible, seemingly no matter what.

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Flash525

 

I have high hopes for the remainder of the DCEU, although I do wonder whether they're rushing ahead a little, what with the directional issues regarding the Batman and Flash films, and all the other films they've got in the pipework. It's almost like they're trying to catch up with the MCU, when they really don't need too; they're telling a different kind of story.

I also hope they all come out on top, but the trouble is that they are actually playing catchup, even though no one's bothered, WB clearly are, they want to cash in as quickly as possible, seemingly no matter what.

 

 

This is where they're going to suffer if they aren't careful though, and that is my sole fear for the DCEU. The benefit I suppose is that they can fall back to the tv series if it all goes to sh*t, although some of the tv writing is questionable at times. I don't want the DCEU to crumble because some clown who's more concerned with finances pushes films through when they're not ready.

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Natasha

 

 

I have high hopes for the remainder of the DCEU, although I do wonder whether they're rushing ahead a little, what with the directional issues regarding the Batman and Flash films, and all the other films they've got in the pipework. It's almost like they're trying to catch up with the MCU, when they really don't need too; they're telling a different kind of story.

I also hope they all come out on top, but the trouble is that they are actually playing catchup, even though no one's bothered, WB clearly are, they want to cash in as quickly as possible, seemingly no matter what.

 

I know where you're coming from, the sad reality is just that though! Seems they're just going to push through as much as possible in as short a time as possible. Known our luck it'll flop and need someone else to reboot the fanchise AGAIN. I'll be saddened if that's the case.

This is where they're going to suffer if they aren't careful though, and that is my sole fear for the DCEU. The benefit I suppose is that they can fall back to the tv series if it all goes to sh*t, although some of the tv writing is questionable at times. I don't want the DCEU to crumble because some clown who's more concerned with finances pushes films through when they're not ready.

 

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Flash525

 

See, this is actually a problem for me; it's another project that DC are (potentially) going to try their hand at when they still haven't got their core characters working in unison yet. In my opinion, until they've covered the core Justice League members, they shouldn't be considering other superheroes. Get the groundwork built up first, and then build on top of it. Stop with all the secondary characters; we don't (yet) need a film about Nightwing, Harley Quinn, Deadshot etc etc etc

 

It's a drain on otherwise essential time and resources, all for the sake of pleasing a minority. If they want to introduce the character (presumably in the Batman film?) then great, but there's not yet a need for a film about Nightwing. #opinion

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Natasha

See, this is actually a problem for me; it's another project that DC are (potentially) going to try their hand at when they still haven't got their core characters working in unison yet. In my opinion, until they've covered the core Justice League members, they shouldn't be considering other superheroes. Get the groundwork built up first, and then build on top of it. Stop with all the secondary characters; we don't (yet) need a film about Nightwing, Harley Quinn, Deadshot etc etc etc

 

It's a drain on otherwise essential time and resources, all for the sake of pleasing a minority. If they want to introduce the character (presumably in the Batman film?) then great, but there's not yet a need for a film about Nightwing. #opinion

 

I agree with you here, plus in all fairness, the standard non comic audience per chance don't even know who Nightwing is! Marvel never jumped into a Black Widow/Hawkeye movie, not because they're not worth doing, but because the general public at large have no idea who they are. Why would you do a comic book movie using characters that people have no recollection of and risk losing millions at the box office. These characters need to be fed into the iconic roles (Batman in this case) and then built on. However as you've said the DCEU need to actually build the core team firstly since they've done a pretty poor job of that thus far I feel.

 

Again only my opinion and I know loads will argue, but it's just my take on things.

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Flash525

 

I agree with you here, plus in all fairness, the standard non comic audience per chance don't even know who Nightwing is! Marvel never jumped into a Black Widow/Hawkeye movie, not because they're not worth doing, but because the general public at large have no idea who they are. Why would you do a comic book movie using characters that people have no recollection of and risk losing millions at the box office. These characters need to be fed into the iconic roles (Batman in this case) and then built on. However as you've said the DCEU need to actually build the core team firstly since they've done a pretty poor job of that thus far I feel.

 

Again only my opinion and I know loads will argue, but it's just my take on things.

 

It's a realistic viewpoint. More often than not, if you asked someone to name a DC Superhero, they'd name Batman or Superman, though there's a good chance they'd not specifically know the difference between DC and Marvel, especially if they aren't in with the comics and or films/series. Before the MCU became what it is today, I'd honestly never heard of the Avengers, Captain America, Ironman (etc); I've never read a single comic book - all my knowledge of these characters comes from the films/series and then research online, and/or a couple of games (Injustice).

 

I've known of Batman and Superman for a while, because of their earlier films, and I'd heard of Thor, but that's more his mythological status than his connection to the MCU. That and his connection to Jack O'Neil (bonus points if you get the reference).

 

It was sensible for DC to focus on Batman & Superman in Dawn of Justice, with Wonder Woman as a supporting cast, with cameo scenes from Flash, Aquaman & Cyborg. Had Dawn of Justice been about Cyborg and Aquaman, or Wonder Woman and Aquaman, I don't think it would have had the same initial appeal. A feature film on Nightwing who, as you've stated, isn't known all that well (I only knew of him through the first Injustice game) is illogical.

 

I get that hardcore fans might want to see a live action film with the character, and that's great for them, but the timing is off, and the film wont be a financial success, not without the character being a supporting role before hand. Wonder Woman (I assume) will be a prime example of that; if they released Wonder Woman first, before Dawn of Justice, it wouldn't be half as successful as I imagine it's going to be now.

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The Deadite

What?

Deadpool, Iron Man and Guardians of the Galaxy were pretty much unknown to the mainstream and they were still hits, the audience couldn't tip their toes before hand because they weren't stablished in a previous film.

 

Wonder Woman it's also pretty well known, she doesn't need an introduction movie to be a success.

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Flash525

What?

Deadpool, Iron Man and Guardians of the Galaxy were pretty much unknown to the mainstream and they were still hits, the audience couldn't tip their toes before hand because they weren't stablished in a previous film.

 

Wonder Woman it's also pretty well known, she doesn't need an introduction movie to be a success.

 

Deadpool, Ironman and Guardians are all Marvel films, that benefit hugely for their humour, especially Deadpool & Guardians. That's why they were a success. DC is darker by nature, and thus doesn't have that comedy vibe that can make other comic book films a success. Wonder Woman, if released before Dawn of Justice wouldn't have likely been a success because of one very simple reason; it's a film about a woman. That's not meant to sound sexist either, but it's true.

 

No film to date has been a success because of a female superhero, heck, I bet a good portion of people that liked Scarlett in Avengers was because of the leathery outfit; Hollywood knows how to draw in male attention, whilst at the same time are rumoured to be a sexist (and racist) organisation. Wonder Woman had to be introduced in such a way that she'd gain the attention of fans without simply the attention of her assets, and they did that with Dawn of Justice.

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The Deadite

I have to disagree, there's plenty of films with a female lead that enjoyed sucess, such as Hunger Games, the two latest Star Wars films, the Alien series Etc, the notion that female driven films are a financial risk is just asinine. Wonder Woman is a character that the mainstream audience already knows at some level so the hook is already there, she didn't need to be squeezed in BVS to draw attention.

 

DC isn't darker by nature either, is just that Zack Snyder decided that because he didn't understood Superman's character... he just tried to ape Nolan's sucess but didn't realize that both Batman and Superman work different and need a different approach.

Edited by The Deadite

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AlienTwo

I have to disagree, there's plenty of films with a female lead that enjoyed sucess, such as Hunger Games, the two latest Star Wars films, the Alien series Etc, the notion that female driven films are a financial risk is just asinine. Wonder Woman is a character that the mainstream audience already knows at some level so the hook is already there, she didn't need to be squeezed in BVS to draw attention.

 

DC isn't darker by nature either, is just that Zack Snyder decided that because he doesn't understood Superman's character... he just tried to ape Nolan's sucess but didn't realize that both Batman and Superman work different and need a different aporoach.

This is about the most correct thing on the Internet.

 

DC has a lot more light and comedy to draw from, I mean in the books, Barry Allen is a jokester, superman is a positive and hopeful force, even aquaman and wonder woman come from happy places. They have the core positive material, they just need to use it.

 

And the only way to finally get over this male action hero trope is to continue to push women as the lead... as a father of little boy who loves Rey and Supergirl as much as I loved Han and Superman, I can attest it's not a born genetic predisposition to preferring dudes saving the day... it's a forced cultural perspective.

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Flash525

I have to disagree, there's plenty of films with a female lead that enjoyed sucess, such as Hunger Games, the two latest Star Wars films, the Alien series Etc, the notion that female driven films are a financial risk is just asinine. Wonder Woman is a character that the mainstream audience already knows at some level so the hook is already there, she didn't need to be squeezed in BVS to draw attention.

 

DC isn't darker by nature either, is just that Zack Snyder decided that because he didn't understood Superman's character... he just tried to ape Nolan's sucess but didn't realize that both Batman and Superman work different and need a different approach.

 

You'll notice I specifically said super hero films; such films bring in a different audience to horror films such as Alien, science fiction films such as Star Wars, and fantasy films such as Hunger Games.

 

Whilst a good portion of the mainstream audience know who Wonder Woman is, not all of them do, and I'll be amazed if DC executives intended their existing films to draw in only comic book fans. Batman and Superman are their most prominent characters, if you're trying to tell me that the current DCEU would have been half the success that it is if the initiation film started with Wonder Woman, then I'm sorry to say, but you're a little naïve.

 

And DC, compared to Marvel, is darker.

 

This is about the most correct thing on the Internet.

 

DC has a lot more light and comedy to draw from, I mean in the books, Barry Allen is a jokester, superman is a positive and hopeful force, even aquaman and wonder woman come from happy places. They have the core positive material, they just need to use it.

 

And the only way to finally get over this male action hero trope is to continue to push women as the lead... as a father of little boy who loves Rey and Supergirl as much as I loved Han and Superman, I can attest it's not a born genetic predisposition to preferring dudes saving the day... it's a forced cultural perspective.

 

I never said that DC was only full of doom and gloom, only that it tends to be darker, especially from the perspective of Batman; one of it's more prominent characters. You'll get no argument from me that female characters (in super hero films and others alike) need pushing, but what I'm saying is that if DC started out with Wonder Woman, or if Marvel started out with Black Widow, we'd be looking at (I think) a failed franchise about now.

Edited by Flash525

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Leftist Bastard

Starting with Wonder Woman would have been terrible, I agree, but with Batman vs Superman was equally as bad. They started with MoS, should have done solo Batman ----> Wonder Woman ---> BvS. Maybe fit Aquaman before BvS

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Flash525

Starting with Wonder Woman would have been terrible, I agree, but with Batman vs Superman was equally as bad. They started with MoS, should have done solo Batman ----> Wonder Woman ---> BvS. Maybe fit Aquaman before BvS

 

As stated earlier, other than the casting of Lex, and the dream sequences, I didn't think Dawn of Justice was too bad. They probably didn't start with Batman because there have already been more Batman films, all without superheroes. Superman was a better character to introduce the wider audience to the wider DCEU.

 

I think we can all agree that we'd have handled it a little better, and maybe introduced characters different, to ultimately bring them together for the big party a few years down the line, but the powers that be would have it another way.

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Leftist Bastard

 

Starting with Wonder Woman would have been terrible, I agree, but with Batman vs Superman was equally as bad. They started with MoS, should have done solo Batman ----> Wonder Woman ---> BvS. Maybe fit Aquaman before BvS

 

As stated earlier, other than the casting of Lex, and the dream sequences, I didn't think Dawn of Justice was too bad. They probably didn't start with Batman because there have already been more Batman films, all without superheroes. Superman was a better character to introduce the wider audience to the wider DCEU.

 

I think we can all agree that we'd have handled it a little better, and maybe introduced characters different, to ultimately bring them together for the big party a few years down the line, but the powers that be would have it another way.

 

Really? the dream sequences were some of my favorite bits in the movie. I thought the movie was pretty decent for the first half but it all went COMPLETELY downhill for the second half. Whoever thought adapting The Death of Superman for DCU's second outing and then basically retconning it a movie later was a good idea is completely, and utterly, dumb.

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