Riots in Turkey

[acmilano]

 

Police used tear gas to stop a group of demonstrators marching on the prime minister's office in Istanbul, the private Dogan news agency reports.

 

Mr Erdogan said during a televised news conference: "There are those attending these events organised by extremists. This is not about Gezi Park anymore. These are organised events with affiliations both within Turkey and abroad.

 

"The main opposition party CHP has provoked my innocent citizens. Those who make news [and] call these events the Turkish Spring do not know Turkey."

 

Protesters say the Turkish government is becoming increasingly authoritarian.

 

They fear Mr Erdogan's Justice and Development Party (AKP) is trying to impose conservative Islamic values on the officially secular country and infringe on their personal freedoms, correspondents say.

 

Officials say more than 1,700 people have been arrested in demonstrations in 67 towns and cities, though many have since been released.

 

Late on Sunday, the White House said in a statement that all parties should "calm the situation", and reaffirmed that peaceful demonstrations were "part of democratic expression".

 

The US previously criticised the security forces for their initial response to the protest.

 

 

 

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-22753418

 

 

 

 

 

What happened there? That country just recently payed off all MMF loans and had great economic development. Only explanation so far is that turkish Alavit's were afraid that they could become targets becouse of war in Syria but even thatis not substantial. Really entire world got crazy.

[Sgt. Foley]

This has been all over imgur. There was a pic showing Intl. CNN and Local CNN (for Turkey) and Turkey was showing a god damn cooking show.

[Fireman]

My parents were on a holiday for a week or two and came back last Thursday, they didn't notice anything luckily.

 

 

[sivispacem]

In terms of what's happening, a great number of people are upset by the supposed de-secularisation of Turkish society and politics, and the fact that many items of recent legislation have pandered to religiously conservative elements (like banning the sale of alcohol after 8PM) at the expense of the more liberal majority. There are also allegations of increasing authoritarianism in the government and the mis-use of Islamic charities and societies as political tools by the current leadership in order to increase their political support.

[Majestic81]

Turkey having a protest? Why am i not surprised . lets see where this leads.

[Raavi]

Erdogan is right when he states that his AK Party represents a majority of the Turkish electorate. The riots, however, take place for the most part in the west of Turkey, traditionally the place where secular Turks live. The AK Party, however, has voters from the (huge) backcountry of Turkey which stretches to the borders with Armenia, Georgia and Iran. Unlike the affluent, intellectual west, the electorate there mostly consist of conservative, less educated people who mostly are strictly religious. Pillars on which the AK Party is built; and herewith does injustice to the secular Turkey of Ataturk.

[Chris Fromage]

I am pro-AK Party, and I give these people the right to protest.

 

But what they did was horrible. They wanted to 'save' a park (well, we all know that is not true...) and they destroyed whole Taksim.

If you want to protest, go make a petition and search for people to sign it. They have burned over 50 civilian cars, attacked the police, trew garbage over the street, attacked a mosque and much more.

The police has the right to gas them when they do it if you ask me.

 

Ak-party made Turkey a powerful country. In ten tears, they went from the most poorest countries to the fastest growing countries. Thanks to AK-party, Turkey has no debts anymore to the IMF.

 

I am not pro-Ak party because I am Muslim (and for Raavi: I did finish University so uneducated am I neither) . I know what happened in the country of our historical brothers. I was their on 12 September 1980 when it all happened. I was just a kid and saw the horrors. And this didn't change until Akparty came.

Erdogan made a revolution. From 3rd world country to the fastest growing economies in less then 10 years! From a country controlled by the army, it became a country controlled by the citizens!

 

And I respect the police and want them to continue and even go further then that!

That's why I changed my avatar into the symbol of the Turkish police.

 

 

But let them protest. Now people see what the members of CHP can do, they will vote for Ak-party.

[feestaap1]

as a political scientist in the making I have to respond to this!

 

Erdogan was democratically elected with 49.83% of the votes or 341 seats out of 550 (276 needed for majority).

He's the man that managed to overcome the economic crisis in Turkey by doing great public construction works. But at the same time he tried to make Turkey more Islamic and authoritarian. An education reform voted in 2012 made the education more Islamic and driven by the state. People were tortured and placed in jails for blasphemy and abortion is as good as illegal nog. Freedom is extremely limited by the state in the past two years also. There are restriction on freedom of speech, freedom of press, freedom on internet usage, there is sensorship on the internet and television, all the news is driven by the state (that's why they are showing cooking shows now in Turkey). There even is a restriction on the right of free assembly.

 

Erdogan is creating a new political order behind the economical boom in the country. That's why they can pay of their debts but have a revolt in Turkey.

 

The statement of raavi is also correct! Most protest is in the western part of Turkey where the CHP has the most votes.

 

Another cause is the overconstructing of the country. Public construction works are a great way to boom the economy (am not going to explain why because that would drive us too far) but Erdogan is building too much. The spark was the breaking up of a square to build a big shopping mall. But other constructs are negative for the people also like the building of nuclear treatment labs and nuclear reactions in dense housing areas in the west.

 

What will happen now? A prediction: the UN will condemn the government and will make a resolution on Turkey and impose sanctions. The EU will also impose sanctions but only if the violence realy get's out of hands because Turkey and the EU are close friends. The first thing the EU will do is freez all the open chapters of the accession progress to the EU of Turkey. At this moment 17 of the 33 chapters are frozen but I expect them to freez all open chapters for now. Protest won't spread through whole Turkey I think it will stay in the west.

 

I would like to excuse me for my bad English but this is written very fast and I live in Belgium so my mother tongue is Dutch

 

questions? I will try to respond

[Chris Fromage]

The statement of raavi is also correct! Most protest is in the western part of Turkey where the CHP has the most votes.

 

A map of the party who won in what province.

Yellow = Ak party

oranje = CHP

Green = MHP (I see you are from Belgium, so you can compare them as Vlaams Belang)

Purple : BDP (Also known as the political PKK)

 

Now look at the most modern and fastest growing province.

1. Ankara = AKP

2. Istanbul = AKP

3. Kayseri = AKP

4. Konya = AKP

5. Izmir =CHP

6. Isparta = AKP

7. Tranbzon = AKP

8. Edirne = CHP

9. Erzincan = AKP

10. Gumushane = AKP

 

 

... less educated people ..

The most educated people per province and the leading party:

1. Isparta = AKP

2. Burdur = AKP

3. Edirne = CHP

4. Bolu = AKP

5. Gaziantep = AKP

6. Kütahya = AKP

7. Çanakkale = AKP

8. Eskişehir = AKP

9. Kırıkkale = CHP

10.Trabzon = AKP

 

Seems like educated and modern people are more voting to AKP

 

Source:

http://www.bayburtpostasi.com.tr/dosya/tum...bilir-sehirleri

http://forum.vatan.tc/yerel-secim-2009/200...imsonuclari.jpg

Zaman: Sene statistikleri <- Most selling Turkish newspaper over whole Europe, US and big parts of Asia

[feestaap1]

correct Cris! But most protest still is in the western part of Turkey. In the west are the most fast growing provinces like you say and that's why there is protest... that are the provinces that are the most affected by the extreme Islamic thinking of Erdogan like I stated. It's easier to change something politically behind the scenes of economical development.

[bread]

[Chris Fromage]

 

correct Cris! But most protest still is in the western part of Turkey. In the west are the most fast growing provinces like you say and that's why there is protest... that are the provinces that are the most affected by the extreme Islamic thinking of Erdogan like I stated. It's easier to change something politically behind the scenes of economical development.

Yes, (if you count Ankara also Western).

But the thing is, over whole Turkey, there were just 3 big protest. In Ankara, Istanbul and Izmir.

In total there were a bit less then 100 000 people. Sounds much right?

 

Well, it isn't.

 

In total, there life +26 million people in those 3 cities combined.

100 000/ 26 000 000 = 0.3%

That is not much at all. And to be honest, those are not against an Islamic nation.

If you have a look at the protest, they all have flags of the PKK and the symbol of the communism.

They are not against erdogan or akp or the Islam. These same people protested on 1 may each year. They protested 5 years ago, they protested 10 years ago, they protested even before AKP existed....

 

There (main) goal is not preventing Turkey from being a Islamic nation.

One group want to make an independent "Kurdistan", while the other one is trying to turn Turkey into a Communist country.

This Islamic nation thing is just a cover. This is not the first time these people come on streets. It happened years ago too. Even when Turkey was on it's most secular years.

 

Those group are there since begin cold-war. And it was even worse back then. That's why Turkey had 3 coups in history.

And this all before AKP or any other real Islamic party existed.

 

EDIT:

Sorry if I sound angry or mad.

Those protestors are just driving me crazy sometimes.

Edited June 3, 2013 by Chris Fromage

[feestaap1]

thanks for the insight mate!

 

and I don't like protesters either... here in Brussels (Belgium) we have a mean of 3,5 protest manifestations every day... crazy

[Stephan90]

Only thing I can say about the riots is that I wish they bring down the government, because this party leads their society back into the middle age (not economically). But it's not going to happen, unfortunately.

[sivispacem]

Couple of things about Chris' post that I want to question. Whilst his insight is fair enough and I'm in no position of authority to speak on the issue, his statements do have a slight ring of Arab-spring-era authoritarian government about them. Firstly, the insinuation that a protest group of 100,000 is only representative of 0.3% of the population (which isn't said categorically, but is strongly implied- or at least the point thereof is). Whilst I'm not versed on Turkish politics enough to estimate what the full representation of this figure is, I can pretty categorically say that those who are dissatisfied with the government are not limited to the hundred or so thousand on the streets- they never are. Secondly, I don't buy the assertion that everyone out there is either a Kurd or a Communist- especially the comments on flags. I don't think I've seen a single hammer and sickle or green, white and red banner in any of the footage or still images. I'd be really interested to see some images which demonstrate your claims given that all the ones I can find appear to just be a sea of Turkish flags.

 

My main concern has been the response to the initial peaceful protests. The immediate response was very heavy-handed, which Erdogan apologised for, but police have continued to use tear gas, baton rounds and water cannon with no real signs of abatement. He's also blamed, interchangeably, drunkards, yobs, the political opposition movement, Kurds, Communists and basically anyone else he can pigeon-hole, rather like various Middle Eastern and North African despots did during the Arab Spring. Which is rather worrying, given that the majority of those that made immediate concessions towards democracy and inclusivism generally stayed in power, and those that rallied and accused popular movement of extremism ended up deposed. I'm not aware of the full level of support for Erdogan currently (and I don't wish to confuse support of the party for support of the individual) but this appears to have been simmering for a number of years now, and that implies that hostility towards his style of leadership isn't anywhere near as limited as some of his supporters seem to be implying.

[Chris Fromage]

 

I can pretty categorically say that those who are dissatisfied with the government are not limited to the hundred or so thousand on the streets- they never are.

 

You are right, there could be more people who are against AKP. I cannot deny that.

But the thing is, that if they don't say anything, it is thought that they are 'happy' with how it is now.

This is not the political way of thinking, but more the way of the Turkish people. "If you don't say anything, we automatically assume you are happy. (that's why people protest so fast in Turkey.)

 

But this is actually something you will not understand easy without seeing it by yourself. It was also hard to understand for me firstly

I hope I could tell it well.

 

 

some images which demonstrate your claims given that all the ones I can find appear to just be a sea of Turkish flags.

 

I have some images:

As you see Red and Yellow.

 

Flags in the background are flags from 'Kurdistan' and the face of the creator of the PKK

 

Same picture from another side. Here you can also see the communists.

 

And again same place, but now closer.

 

Atatürk and the creator of the PKK next to each other?? Would a real Turk allow this?

 

Flags in the background. Again Yellow and Red.

 

PKK written with graffiti on a random car...?

 

Some "revolutionaries" attacking a bank. (Not Turkish flag)

 

Red, green, Yellow...

 

Now, I am not saying there were no Turkish flags. But most of the red flags you see are not Turkish flags but others that look like it.

I do understand if you thought they were Turkish flags. It's hard to see the difference from far away.

PS: These were mostly taken by protestors themselves, because civilians were scared to get out of their houses..

 

 

My main concern has been the response to the initial peaceful protests. The immediate response was very heavy-handed, which Erdogan apologised for, but police have continued to use tear gas, baton rounds and water cannon with no real signs of abatement.

 

It was, but for a reason:

 

 

Self made bombs. Very easy to make and can easily kill a man.

 

 

^Says enough I think.

And these were taken just before the armed cops arrived. I don't know about your country, but here in my country, the polices immediately opens fire when these things are seen.

 

 

 

... but this appears to have been simmering for a number of years now ...

Well these things happens a lot in Turkey. Not today, but also years ago, even before AKP or other Islamic groups were in the government.

I have even seen worse then this, but somehow they were never on international media. Mostly, just a small article in the newspapers...

 

I hope this says enough. Questions are always welcome

[feestaap1]

a friend of a friend of mine is there at the moment... he reports that the government has shut down the internet in big parts of the rioting cities.

 

If you want to follow live in pictures what's happening in Turkey see this link: PROTEST LIVE PICTURES

 

The rioting reached the harbour of Istanbul right before nightfall. (part of the tourist-district of Istanbul)

 

This are the rubber bullets that the police shoots at the protestors:

 

 

And this is what those rubber bullets do: (it's not included here because it's a gore picture if you can't see at gore pictures then please don't click)

 

rubber bullets

 

UPDATE: the university of Istanbul has been reached and attacked by the rioters!

 

UPDATE2: the army is helping the protestors by cleaning their eyes and protecting them at night! (what the hell!!! can't follow this but okey...)

 

Edited June 3, 2013 by feestaap1

[I cucked Alex Jones]

I'm just going to quote a Turk from another forum I go to.

 

 

There are people of any backgrounds among protesters. There are religious ones and there are AKP supporters. Of course, there are more left leaning people but I've seen rightist people among the protesters and neighbourhoods that protested this or that way. Anyone who thinks that this protests is between white and black Turks is being deliberately misleading or has no idea about the protests.

 

[sivispacem]

 

I have some images:

Thanks for these. Quite interesting to witness from that perspective- most of the large groups I've seen from the various news outlets have been showing pretty much nothing but red and white.

 

Couple of questions, though:

 

1) Your right in saying that a good number of the red-and-white flags aren't Turkish flags. However, don't most of the Turkish political parties have red and white banners of some kind?

2) Isn't the green flag/yellow sun/red star emblem of the KKK, which is a democratic and social movement, not the PKK, which is a terrorist organisation? The PKK flag is red-green-yellow-red five-point star if I remember rightly.

3) Aren't many of the red-and-yellow flags that of the Peace and Democracy Party, not Communist? I'm aware they're linked to the Kurdish minorities but thought they had a relatively high level of support amongst more Socialist-inclined Turks, given they're a major party in terms of seats.

 

 

^Says enough I think.

Interesting. However, these appear to be isolated incidents; there doesn't appear to be a great deal of violence instigated by protesters even after the heavy-handed police response. Compare, say, with the riots a couple of years ago in London and elsewhere in the UK, where handguns were present (either replica or genuine, no idea from the image provided). Erdogan did initially apologise for the behaviour of the police, after all. Another interesting factor is the apparent rift between Erdogan and Gul- we've had two very different approaches to the issue from the two Turkish political leaders despite them having a historically close relationship, but given that Erdogan seems to want to undermine the duality of the president/prime ministerial role by creating a universal head-of-state position modelled on the US president, one wonders how much longer that will continue.

 

@feestaap1

 

1) That actually looks like a tear gas grenade, rather than a baton round. They're hard-shelled so even more dangerous when fired directly at people, as is evidently the case with this one as it's covered in blood.

2) In regard to the military, at times relations between the armed forces and the conservative Islamist government have been...strained at best. I think there's quite a lot of disquiet over the alleged de-secularisation of the country.

[Chris Fromage]

 

Your right in saying that a good number of the red-and-white flags aren't Turkish flags. However, don't most of the Turkish political parties have red and white banners of some kind?

 

Yes, that is true, but the thing is that those don't even look like the flags of the political parties. Of course, their should be a few, but not as much as it looks like.

 

As you see, the symbols of parties that are also used on their flags. The flags used in the protest might look like those, but they aren't the same.

 

PS: most of these groups have been forbidden in Turkey since they supported terrorist and violence.

 

 

 

Isn't the green flag/yellow sun/red star emblem of the KKK, which is a democratic and social movement, not the PKK, which is a terrorist organisation? The PKK flag is red-green-yellow-red five-point star if I remember rightly.

 

 

The green flag/yellow sun/red star emblem is not really the flag of the PKK, but more of "Kurdistan" and it is mostly used by the supporters of the PKK because using symbols of any terrorist organisation is strictly forbidden in Turkey.

PS: I didn't know about that flag of the KKK. But is seems like they are using similar flags...

 

 

Aren't many of the red-and-yellow flags that of the Peace and Democracy Party, not Communist? I'm aware they're linked to the Kurdish minorities but thought they had a relatively high level of support amongst more Socialist-inclined Turks, given they're a major party in terms of seats.

 

 

As you can see on the picture above: There are some red-and-yellow symbols. But the thing is that those parties had scored soo low during the latest election, people literally forgot them.

They are somewhere between the other 12 forgotten parties what we call the "0.1% others"

 

 

If you want to follow live in pictures what's happening in Turkey see this link: PROTEST LIVE PICTURES

 

 

I used to follow that site too. Until (when there were 20 pictures) 13 have been proved to be fake. If at least 65% of their pictures were fake, how could I believe the rest of it...?

 

 

This are the rubber bullets that the police shoots at the protestors:

 

Those people should be glad the police only used those. (And as sivispacem said, they aren't bullets, but gas grenade what are being used a lot in cases like this).

I remember a case in Belgium 2-3 years ago, were a man was shot because he used a knife against the police.

These people are using self-made bomb with nails and there are even pictures of people with guns. I am amazed the police didn't shoot them yet.

 

 

government has shut down the internet in big parts

 

An old friend of me lives right next to the Taksim square. I spoke with him yesterday on Facebook.

That shut-down story is one big lie to make people against the Turkish government.

I even remember a tweet of a leader of one of these groups on Twitter. He said: "The government has shut down the Internet all over the country. Spread this!"

 

The funny thing here is that he placed this message on Twitter (what was blocked according to him) and he want people to spread this over the Internet...

 

 

the army is helping the protestors by cleaning their eyes and protecting them at night!

 

They are not helping them. They are taking care of wounded people or people who need some help. They get to them for some care, and then they got arrested. That's normal in Turkey. It was always like this.

[sivispacem]

Thanks for the insight.

 

As an interesting and relevant aside, the Turkish deputy PM has apologised for the treatment of the initial protesters and has cone out as saying that their actions were legitimate- though not those involved in the later violence. Beeb article.

[Double L.]

@Chris Fromage : Are you remember me brother !

 

You have more informations than some Turkish people, i congratulate you. I think the people will go their homes after 2-3 weeks.

[Chris Fromage]

@Chris Fromage : Are you remember me brother !

 

You have more informations than some Turkish people, i congratulate you. I think the people will go their homes after 2-3 weeks.

Of course I remember you my Turkish Brother!

 

Yes, we follow everything that happens in Turkey very good over here. We don't want anything bad to happen in Turkey.

And I hope you are right. I know that there are a lot of supporters of the AKP ready to face the protestors. Some people say that over 3 million people are ready to take side with Erdogan. If this does happen, it will be very chaotic in Turkey.

 

Even here from Japan and South-Korea thousands of people are ready to go to Turkey to help Erdogan when it is necessary.

 

Anyways, I hope it will end soon and I hope you and you family will be safe during these hard days.

[Double L.]

 

@Chris Fromage : Are you remember me brother ! 

 

You have more informations than some Turkish people, i congratulate you. I think the people will go their homes after 2-3 weeks.

Of course I remember you my Turkish Brother!

 

Yes, we follow everything that happens in Turkey very good over here. We don't want anything bad to happen in Turkey.

And I hope you are right. I know that there are a lot of supporters of the AKP ready to face the protestors. Some people say that over 3 million people are ready to take side with Erdogan. If this does happen, it will be very chaotic in Turkey.

 

Even here from Japan and South-Korea thousands of people are ready to go to Turkey to help Erdogan when it is necessary.

 

Anyways, I hope it will end soon and I hope you and you family will be safe during these hard days.

Thank you brother. Back in the days (80's) a lot of people fighted with each other that was really bad. So some people don't fight with that people, they don't want to fight again like 80'.

[sivispacem]

I don't think we are seeing an event like those in the wider Middle East back in 2011. I don't think this is about deposing the AKP, more about expressing disquiet with their increasing religious conservatism and the impact this has in a secular country. That's why I feel that the portrayal of the entire movement as thugs and criminals is so unhelpful. It looks like the military share some of those concerns too.

[humidex]

Interesting article from Kotaku about the influence of GTA on these protests...

 

http://kotaku.com/im-one-of-the-protesters...ample-511366581

[JOSEPH X]

[Chris Fromage]

^ And now these will be used world wide to make people believe video games make us violent...

 

Thanks protestors...

Edited June 5, 2013 by Chris Fromage

[acmilano]

http://imgur.com/gallery/Rg62e

 

Graphic pictures from riots.

[Finn 7 five 11]

In terms of what's happening, a great number of people are upset by the supposed de-secularisation of Turkish society and politics, and the fact that many items of recent legislation have pandered to religiously conservative elements (like banning the sale of alcohol after 8PM) at the expense of the more liberal majority. There are also allegations of increasing authoritarianism in the government and the mis-use of Islamic charities and societies as political tools by the current leadership in order to increase their political support.

De-secularisation? Say whaat! In this day and age?