GrandMaster Smith Posted February 13, 2013 Share Posted February 13, 2013 Clearly you know absolutely nothing about disaster response. You can't have people just running around rampant without law and order in a disaster zone - your "gov takes my freedom man" bullsh*t really pisses me off sometimes. The primary role of a government is not to protect liberties, but to protect the citizenry. Martial law is an excellent tool for this when an area is devastated and the citizenry don't respond to local law enforcement, or if local law enforcement is not able to operate due to said natural disaster. Let me ask you this - what would YOU suggest be the best way to respond to a natural disaster? Just send in a bunch of unarmed FEMA people with aid packages to be killed and stripped of whatever supplies they bring? That sound good to you? Please explain why all our rights need to be disabled for them to take care of us in the case of a disaster? FEMA's a joke, if anything they made the whole Katrina disaster that much more worse off.. Keeping people imprisoned literally within their own feces not allowing them to leave, given orders to murder looters.. There were even mass killings during the whole ordeal. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dingdongs Posted February 13, 2013 Share Posted February 13, 2013 Please explain why all our rights need to be disabled for them to take care of us in the case of a disaster? Because that's the way it is. Civil liberties need to be suspended during a natural disaster like Katrina as it is the only surefire way to restore order. There were mumbles about sending the national guard in to patrol the streets/issue curfews (their presence and the curfew itself is probably the easiest way to restore order) during the mass power outages from Sandy because people lose it. There were national guardsmen patrolling the south shore of Long Island for example. People do not want to listen to law and order - they will take advantage of a society with no rules, which is what a society impacted by a mass disaster is. Power is out, local LEOs are disabled - people cannot be trusted to do the right thing. That's why there were (as you admit) mass lootings. But it wasn't limited to that. Look up all the rapes and various other heinous crimes that took place during Katrina's aftermath. FEMA's a joke, if anything they made the whole Katrina disaster that much more worse off.. Keeping people imprisoned literally within their own feces not allowing them to leave, given orders to murder looters.. FEMA sucked during Katrina - you are right. It was being directed by one of Bush's cronies and it wasn't taken seriously as an agency. They responded like sh*t to the crisis. Please provide proof of that order because #1, FEMA is not some paramilitary force - they don't kill anyone nor do I know of anyone within FEMA other than perhaps people employed as security at their headquarters who even carries a gun. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
El Dildo Posted February 13, 2013 Share Posted February 13, 2013 It's almost like you're intentionally ignoring reality, history and actual current affairs to create these absurd fallacies. well of course. the only way that people like Grand Master, Lil Weasel, or the OP can maintain their conspiracy claims is to expressly avoid acknowledging anything that would challenge them. a person who hates the way they look doesn't keep a lot of mirrors in their house... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Clem Fandango Posted February 13, 2013 Share Posted February 13, 2013 That last part was pure gold! Like one of the most publicly marginalised and least intellectually credible groups in the political arena is going to be wiped out by the government. Coming from an anarchist? heh? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IM_YOUR_GOD Posted February 13, 2013 Share Posted February 13, 2013 I remember when a conspiracy theory held weight, cant jump on this drone scared. Im more afraid of Obama's plan to implant us and raise the minimum wage to 9 dollars so minorities can purchase ammo for the upcoming race war. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GrandMaster Smith Posted February 13, 2013 Share Posted February 13, 2013 It's almost like you're intentionally ignoring reality, history and actual current affairs to create these absurd fallacies. well of course. the only way that people like Grand Master, Lil Weasel, or the OP can maintain their conspiracy claims is to expressly avoid acknowledging anything that would challenge them. a person who hates the way they look doesn't keep a lot of mirrors in their house... What are you talking about..? The detention sections of the NDAA begin by "affirm[ing]" that the authority of the President under the Authorization for Use of Military Force Against Terrorists (AUMF), a joint resolution passed in the immediate aftermath of the September 11, 2001 attacks, includes the power to detain, via the Armed Forces, any person- (including a U.S. citizen[13][21]) - "who was part of or substantially supported al-Qaeda, the Taliban, or associated forces that are engaged in hostilities against the United States or its coalition partners", and anyone who commits a "belligerent act" against the U.S. or its coalition allies in aid of such enemy forces, under the law of war, "without trial, until the end of the hostilities authorized by the [AUMF]". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
El Dildo Posted February 13, 2013 Share Posted February 13, 2013 whatever helps you sleep at night... look, if the US government starts reigning unwarranted drone attacks on US citizens on US soil, then perhaps we can finally say "hey look, Grand Master was right." but until then, I reserve the right to believe that you're a little crazy and looking for conspiracies where no real conspiracies exist. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GrandMaster Smith Posted February 13, 2013 Share Posted February 13, 2013 whatever helps you sleep at night... look, if the US government starts reigning unwarranted drone attacks on US citizens on US soil, then perhaps we can finally say "hey look, Grand Master was right." but until then, I reserve the right to believe that you're a little crazy and looking for conspiracies where no real conspiracies exist. El_Diablo- "the only way that people like Grand Master, Lil Weasel, or the OP can maintain their conspiracy claims is to expressly avoid acknowledging anything that would challenge them." Why does this seem to be describing yourself so well? "anyone who believes this is crazy" ..well here's the section that shows they can indefinitely detain US citizens without trial.. "okay well whatever helps you sleep at night, you're still crazy" Hello the information is right there. It's not a conspiracy when it's out in the wide open for anyone to see... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IM_YOUR_GOD Posted February 13, 2013 Share Posted February 13, 2013 @Grand Master. There are checks and balances against a tyranny government, Its called Fox News. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
El Dildo Posted February 13, 2013 Share Posted February 13, 2013 Hello the information is right there. It's not a conspiracy when it's out in the wide open for anyone to see... congratulations on missing the point... again. I'm not denying that these policies are in place. I'm denying your theory about how they will be used. Sivis has already explained it from numerous angles but you refuse to buy it. not my problem... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dingdongs Posted February 13, 2013 Share Posted February 13, 2013 I remember when a conspiracy theory held weight, cant jump on this drone scared. Im more afraid of Obama's plan to implant us and raise the minimum wage to 9 dollars so minorities can purchase ammo for the upcoming race war. See you're just batsh*t insane. GMS is just your garden variety conspiracy theorist, ignores your posts, etc. You just come in with complete nonsense pulled out of the sky. At least GMS has the decency to post some sources (even if they are Russia Today). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Clem Fandango Posted February 13, 2013 Share Posted February 13, 2013 ..well here's the section that shows they can indefinitely detain US citizens without trial.. It's like talking to a goat, honestly. Yes, this legislation is at odds with the numerous pieces of international law, and is completely illegal, internationally speaking. It's also generally an inhumane means of dealing with hostile actors, that's why it is being opposed tooth and nail by almost anyone in America who has a platform to do so. What this legislation doesn't do, however, is give the government the right to detain citizens or residents, because that is expressibly forbid by other legislation. This has been pointed out to you in no uncertain terms multiple times. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GrandMaster Smith Posted February 13, 2013 Share Posted February 13, 2013 Hello the information is right there. It's not a conspiracy when it's out in the wide open for anyone to see... congratulations on missing the point... again. I'm not denying that these policies are in place. I'm denying your theory about how they will be used. Sivis has already explained it from numerous angles but you refuse to buy it. not my problem... Of course you deny how they will be used.. because ya know, how else can they use something that allows them to indefinitely detain any American Citizen who they see as a threat towards government without access to a trial .. all the while trying to confiscate all our guns and get the masses used to martial law with military personnel patrolling the streets.. I love it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Clem Fandango Posted February 13, 2013 Share Posted February 13, 2013 Hello the information is right there. It's not a conspiracy when it's out in the wide open for anyone to see... congratulations on missing the point... again. I'm not denying that these policies are in place. I'm denying your theory about how they will be used. Sivis has already explained it from numerous angles but you refuse to buy it. not my problem... It's not even a matter of how it will be used, it's a matter of how it can be used. That said, the government can't use it to indefinitely detail citizens or residents because other legislation protects the right to due process. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GrandMaster Smith Posted February 13, 2013 Share Posted February 13, 2013 What this legislation doesn't do, however, is give the government the right to detain citizens or residents, because that is expressibly forbid by other legislation. This has been pointed out to you in no uncertain terms multiple times.[/color] Did you even read what was posted?? The detention sections of the NDAA begin by "affirm[ing]" that the authority of the President under the Authorization for Use of Military Force Against Terrorists (AUMF), a joint resolution passed in the immediate aftermath of the September 11, 2001 attacks, ------ includes the power to detain,------ via the Armed Forces, any person (including a U.S. citizen[13][21]) They would use this to override any preexisting laws.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
El Dildo Posted February 13, 2013 Share Posted February 13, 2013 something that allows them to indefinitely detain any American Citizen who they see as a threat towards government without access to a trial you're such a buffoon. Sivis already said it best: people who rant and rave about things like the NDAA don't actually understand it (as you've demonstrated quite handily: there is contrary to popular belief no provision that permits indefinite detention of US citizens as there is a caveat which clearly states all citizens and resident aliens are afforded the rights given to them by their citizenship or residency)? That is an assumption based on a lack of understanding: "I don't personally understand x, so it must be nefarious". all the while trying to confiscate all our guns THAT IS NOT HAPPENING. NO ONE IS PROPOSING LEGISLATION TO TAKE AWAY ALL GUNS. how else can we say it? how many times do you have to hear it from Obama himself? no one is taking away all the guns... you idiot get the masses used to martial law with military personnel patrolling the streets MARTIAL LAW IS NOT HAPPENING. local law enforcement practices for urban/domestic terrorist warfare routinely. it's nothing new. it doesn't indicate that martial law is about to be enforced. get over yourself Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Clem Fandango Posted February 13, 2013 Share Posted February 13, 2013 What this legislation doesn't do, however, is give the government the right to detain citizens or residents, because that is expressibly forbid by other legislation. This has been pointed out to you in no uncertain terms multiple times.[/color] Did you even read what was posted?? The detention sections of the NDAA begin by "affirm[ing]" that the authority of the President under the Authorization for Use of Military Force Against Terrorists (AUMF), a joint resolution passed in the immediate aftermath of the September 11, 2001 attacks, ------ includes the power to detain,------ via the Armed Forces, any person (including a U.S. citizen[13][21]) They would use this to override any preexisting laws.. That's not even how government works! For someone who claims to be an expert infowarrior revolutionary you sure do have a huge lack of understanding when it comes to the nuances of the system basic function of government. Legislation has to be repealed in order to cease being in effect. That, or the judiciary would have to rule that this new legislation takes precedent, which they have not done- and because doing so would be to say that this one piece of legislation takes precedent over the basic rights of the citizenry and residents- will probably never do. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ryuclan Posted February 13, 2013 Share Posted February 13, 2013 Here's my question good sir. If there are 30k drones put in the sky, what's stopping practically anybody from taking control of some of them? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
El Dildo Posted February 13, 2013 Share Posted February 13, 2013 If there are 30k drones put in the sky, what's stopping practically anybody from taking control of some of them? they better be a REALLY good hacker. not to mention determined enough to follow the drone from the ground for as long as it takes to maintain a digital link with its computer systems. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GrandMaster Smith Posted February 13, 2013 Share Posted February 13, 2013 something that allows them to indefinitely detain any American Citizen who they see as a threat towards government without access to a trial you're such a buffoon. Sivis already said it best: Ad hominems are cute people who rant and rave about things like the NDAA don't actually understand it (as you've demonstrated quite handily: there is contrary to popular belief no provision that permits indefinite detention of US citizens as there is a caveat which clearly states all citizens and resident aliens are afforded the rights given to them by their citizenship or residency)? How can you say that when the bill clearly states that they can?? I mean it says it clear as day.. all the while trying to confiscate all our guns THAT IS NOT HAPPENING. NO ONE IS PROPOSING LEGISLATION TO TAKE AWAY ALL GUNS. Gun confiscation occurred during the events of Martial Law in Katrina. Mark my words you will slowly see our right to bear arms slowly diminish over the next few years. I guarantee it. get the masses used to martial law with military personnel patrolling the streets MARTIAL LAW IS NOT HAPPENING. Hello it already happened. It's been declared numerous times over the past few years. The very allowance of Martial Law was unthinkable only a couple decades back. local law enforcement practices for urban/domestic terrorist warfare routinely.it's nothing new. it doesn't indicate that martial law is about to be enforced. get over yourself Uhh, urban warfare drills are not routine, atleast not up until the last few years. The military is preparing for domestic warfare, meaning fighting American citizens. How can all of this go over your head so easily? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IM_YOUR_GOD Posted February 13, 2013 Share Posted February 13, 2013 Here's my question good sir. If there are 30k drones put in the sky, what's stopping practically anybody from taking control of some of them? Nothing, but facing federal charges but that's not if they don't send another drone in to crash in on your party. EDIT, you guys argue using the same tactics of Debunking.' PS. they deserve a vote. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ryuclan Posted February 13, 2013 Share Posted February 13, 2013 If there are 30k drones put in the sky, what's stopping practically anybody from taking control of some of them? they better be a REALLY good hacker. not to mention determined enough to follow the drone from the ground for as long as it takes to maintain a digital link with its computer systems. Never doubt the power of a highly determined individual. I doubt that the systems are completely tamper proof. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Clem Fandango Posted February 13, 2013 Share Posted February 13, 2013 How can you say that when the bill clearly states that they can?? I mean it says it clear as day.. It is literally impossible to believe how thick you are. They can put whatever the f*ck they want in the bill and it means nothing, because passing new legislation does not effectively repeal old legislation. What don't you get? Honestly, tell me specifically what part of this incredibly simple explanation you are having trouble grasping and I will break it down to an even simpler level for you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
El Dildo Posted February 13, 2013 Share Posted February 13, 2013 Never doubt the power of a highly determined individual. I doubt that the systems are completely tamper proof. oh I don't doubt that someone would love to try and hack into a drone and be very determined to do so. I'm just saying; don't expect it to be anything but extremely difficult. unless you already had someone planted on the inside to help you out... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Clem Fandango Posted February 13, 2013 Share Posted February 13, 2013 I very much doubt that civilian computers can control drones via the internet. Use some common sense, lads. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Icarus Posted February 13, 2013 Share Posted February 13, 2013 Wait, I'm confused with GM spouting martial law everywhere. For true martial law, doesn't that require that the military becomes the administrator of justice? As far as I know, that hasn't happened in the United States. The only justice the military is charged with is those dealt internally under courts-martial (i.e. it's limited only to the military, not the civilian population). Further to that, it is my understanding that, unless Congress gives it to the A-OK, the military isn't allowed to perform the duties of police under the Posse Comitatus Act, so I really don't see how martial law has ever been declared in the modern United States. I'll let the more political savvy have at that one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GrandMaster Smith Posted February 13, 2013 Share Posted February 13, 2013 How can you say that when the bill clearly states that they can?? I mean it says it clear as day.. It is literally impossible to believe how thick you are. They can put whatever the f*ck they want in the bill and it means nothing, because passing new legislation does not effectively repeal old legislation. What don't you get? Honestly, tell me specifically what part of this incredibly simple explanation you are having trouble grasping and I will break it down to an even simpler level for you. Well for the very fact that the US government can do or say just about nearly anything they please and always find a way to squirm their way out getting in trouble for it. "Oh MK-ULTRA, that was in the past, we're the good guys now, trust us." "Oh Operation Northwoods, that was just some silly plan some random guy drew up, don't pay attention to that." "Trust us and FEMA to take care of you in cases of disaster.. just ignore how bad we've f*cked up in the past, that's irrelevant" .... FFS that Dormer guy is acting in all his hate for the corruption of the LAPD, is labeled a loon crazy person and headlined on every News channel for killing corrupt police officers, yet the LAPD go around shooting up innocent citizens driving trucks not even matching the suspects description yet gets brushed off as if nothing happened.. Not that I'm in favor of how he's killing police officers and especially their family members, but still it just goes to show how one sided things are. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
agent17 Posted February 13, 2013 Share Posted February 13, 2013 I very much doubt that civilian computers can control drones via the internet. Use some common sense, lads. You would probably have to hack the actual airbase control computers. Hacking a UAV out of the sky is next to impossible, without direct access to it. Drone hacking is nothing new, considering Iran claims to have hacked US drones in the past. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Clem Fandango Posted February 13, 2013 Share Posted February 13, 2013 Well for the very fact that the US government can do or say just about nearly anything they please and always find a way to squirm their way out getting in trouble for it. What does this even mean? The "government" doesn't act as a cohesive body and there are checks and balances in place to stop rogue elements. Since your argument seems to have shifted from "it's now legal to detain US citizens" to "well they'll probably just do it anyway!" perhaps you could enlighten us as to how you've come to this conclusion? Further, if they don't care about the law, what's the point of passing legislation in the first place!? As for the rest of your post, I'm going to ignore it because you're simply rambling about how sordid the government is. Do I agree with you? Yes. Is any of it proof of violent politically motivated repression, and thus relevant to our discussion? No. There's difference between correctly considering the government to be rotten, and purporting that they are actively working towards a police state when there is no evidence of them doing so. This not a discussion of pro government v. anti government, it's a discussion about the veracity of your claims, or rather, the lack thereof. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dingdongs Posted February 13, 2013 Share Posted February 13, 2013 Wait, I'm confused with GM spouting martial law everywhere. For true martial law, doesn't that require that the military becomes the administrator of justice? As far as I know, that hasn't happened in the United States. The only justice the military is charged with is those dealt internally under courts-martial (i.e. it's limited only to the military, not the civilian population). Further to that, it is my understanding that, unless Congress gives it to the A-OK, the military isn't allowed to perform the duties of police under the Posse Comitatus Act, so I really don't see how martial law has ever been declared in the modern United States. I'll let the more political savvy have at that one. Technically, yes. The national guard however does not fall under posse comitatus nor does the coast guard. Furthermore congress can authorize the usage of troops on US soil if needed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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