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JustRob

About Johnny's fate

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JustRob

Is it just me or does Johnny end up the worst off of the three protagonists?

 

Niko loses his lover or brother, which is horrible, but he gets even and will eventually be able to lead a normal life. Luis succesfully kills Bulgarin and he and Tony have pretty much made it.

 

Johnny however, loses his best buddies, has to kill his former best friend, burn down his clubhouse, and disband his biker gang. I'm not sure where Ray's money for the diamonds went, if Johnny still had it or not, but it's not really a happy ending. He ends up living in a dump (Brian's former house) and doesn't really have anything good to look forward to.

 

So I'm wondering, how come Johnny gets screwed over in the end while the other two get a relatively happy ending?

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B Dawg

Maybe he ends up joining Stubbs's Gentlemens Club, which he offered to Johhny after doing all the odd-jobs in case his rebel thing doesn't work out. There will probably be reference to it in V on one of the in-game websites.

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universetwisters

Niko lost his cousin, not his brother

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JustRob

Yeah that's what I meant... For some reason I sometimes mistakenly think they're brothers lol

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MikeMyth

Yeah.

He has a dope fiend girlfriend who he's trying to help to no avail, so he gives up on here.

He loses his long-time best friend.

He's left with that apartment, with hardly any close-friends.

I really wonder what became of him.

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AceRay

I think he probably quit the gang, disgusted with what happened and got a job as a truck driver or a janitor or something, a blue collar job. The betrayal he felt was so great, he could never amount to anything ever again and faded into obscurity.

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SARDYNA108

Thats how it all meant to be, Johny is now lost and damned, no friends, no gang, no clubhouse, no girlfriend, only he, old house and his bikes. I know its not happy ending we all like to see but its deep story (if thats the right word). Here people who say games learns us shooting and killing are totally wrong, games from Rockstar shows some things from inside like drugs, gangs and how it can affect our lifes and TLaD is their best story as far, GTA V may have planes, submarines, sharks and swithable protagonists but I doubt it will ever beat TLaD story at its depth.

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Dr. Robotnik
Yeah that's what I meant... For some reason I sometimes mistakenly think they're brothers lol

They might as well be, given how close they are.

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MikeMyth

Honestly I think they made it like this intentionally (of course they made the story as they did intentionally, but this isn't what I mean) I mean The Ballad was meant to be the good story, the one that had the happy ending, the antagonist dies, and you still have all your friends, money, etc.

Whereas The Lost & Damned is supposed to tell a tragedy of a man who lost everything. It makes sense that everything is oppisite from each other doesn't it? Even in the game's blurbs it reads something like: TBoGT takes place in glamorous Algonquin clubs and all that (and so forth)

TL&D takes place in Alderney Liberty City's ugly sister, filled with Strip Malls and suburbs (and once again ; so forth)

Anyone else just realizing this? wow.gif

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AdvanceTrak RSC
Is it just me or does Johnny end up the worst off of the three protagonists?

 

Niko loses his lover or brother, which is horrible, but he gets even and will eventually be able to lead a normal life. Luis succesfully kills Bulgarin and he and Tony have pretty much made it.

 

Johnny however, loses his best buddies, has to kill his former best friend, burn down his clubhouse, and disband his biker gang. I'm not sure where Ray's money for the diamonds went, if Johnny still had it or not, but it's not really a happy ending. He ends up living in a dump (Brian's former house) and doesn't really have anything good to look forward to.

 

So I'm wondering, how come Johnny gets screwed over in the end while the other two get a relatively happy ending?

I really hope they include him in V I thought he was one of the coolest characters along with Yusef. Mike Toreno takes my #1 of all time

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Kifflom112

Yup, it's pretty awful. sad.gif

But Niko's is too with the path I took with my current session. I picked Money instead of Revenge which lead to Roman's death. On my current save session I didn't look at spoilers so I assumed money was the best choice lol. Niko loses his cousin, which is a main reason why he is there. Pretty sad.

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junkpile

To me, Johnny has the potential to reappear as a protagonist. Even though this most likely won't happen. He has nothing to lose and everything to gain. No choices which make a future storyline difficult, no need to bring in close friends, etc.

 

No need to further explain WHY he would have left LC and reappear in Vice or Los Santos.

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Doublepulse

I never once thought that Niko had a happy ending, regardless of the truth.. The American Dream was not what he expected it to be. The mood at the end just says everything tounge.gif.

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AdvanceTrak RSC
Yup, it's pretty awful. sad.gif

But Niko's is too with the path I took with my current session. I picked Money instead of Revenge which lead to Roman's death. On my current save session I didn't look at spoilers so I assumed money was the best choice lol. Niko loses his cousin, which is a main reason why he is there. Pretty sad.

Felt the same way about doing deal ofr the first time instead of revenge

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Nameless Foot Soldier

In my opinion, all three character's have a bad ending. I think of Niko as a broken and empty man by the end of IV left to rot in the watery and rotten cage that is Liberty City, left to wallow in his own hypocritical and sinful actions with the dark ending ("I'll waste inside a cage"). In my opinion Niko was a bad man (He understood this which causes his many moments of self questioning "The creature that could do this has no soul") and so he was left to waste inside the hell that is Liberty City, a prison of corrupted judgment. Luis made it through in the end and survived but in the end, he was left alone as Gay Tony cut all contact and went away. Luis has the money, the girls and the clubs, but is that really a life fulfillment? Everybody in the entire story of TBoGT of fake, a liar and selfish, all but Luis and Tony to one and other. That bond was cut with all the distrust from the attempt of Luis's hand of thinking of Killing Tony. In the end, Luis is left with all that bullsh*t, a fake world full of backstabbers. Hell, look at Luis's asshole friends who contently make fun of him. Even his family talk sh*t to him, his own mom tells him off. Lastly, Johnny who lived in a dirty and sad existence in the industrial wasteland that is south Alderny. Johnny spends the whole game thinking he is better than most by thinking he lives free amongst everyone else. Tries to live in his bullsh*t idea of freedom. He soon stats to realize that he isn't free at all and even he is worked by the system with his attempts to keep is illegal livelihood floating among all the child like antics that is brought about by his other "Free living brothers". In the end, Johnny is kinda set free but in doing so he leaves himself lost and damned. He kills off most of the men who he built his whole live upon as his brothers (I'm fairly certain that Johnny and Brain were good friends at one time when they rode in Los Santos together back in 2004 and I know that Johnny and Billy were truly great friends as kids). Lost his best friend, burned down his now dysfunctional club house that he worked so hard to keep running, and not only that, he was left in the cage that is Liberty City, unlike the free Los Santos that he knew back in 2004. Yes, Johnny has a sad ending, as so did all the characters but to be honest, they all deserve it. Niko is a man who kills for money and to find a man who sold out a bunch of murderers. Niko is a hypocrite who comes to Liberty City to get a new life to escape his violent past but also comes to hunt down and kill a man, than while he isn't hunting down people who he is being paid to kill, he questions his actions with self pity only to keep doing what he is doing. Luis is a murdering manic who has no remorse for any of his killings and only sees his killings as just work. He literally shows no questioning of his actions, none at all. It's all just a job to him, and that scares the sh*t out of me. At least Niko questions his actions. Than there is Johnny who does the same thing but has more of a brutal and savage nature to his killings. His murdering is a lot more rage filled than Luis's casualness. And to make it more scary, he sees it has just antics, mindless trouble that can be had on the Angels of Death when they don't have good business truces to be giving. They all assholes, but I love them all. Crime makes such great stories

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B Dawg

^ Couldn't agree more. You explained everything icon14.gif

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Johnny-K

 

In my opinion, all three character's have a bad ending. I think of Niko as a broken and empty man by the end of IV left to rot in the watery and rotten cage that is Liberty City, left to wallow in his own hypocritical and sinful actions with the dark ending ("I'll waste inside a cage"). In my opinion Niko was a bad man (He understood this which causes his many moments of self questioning "The creature that could do this has no soul") and so he was left to waste inside the hell that is Liberty City, a prison of corrupted judgment. Luis made it through in the end and survived but in the end, he was left alone as Gay Tony cut all contact and went away. Luis has the money, the girls and the clubs, but is that really a life fulfillment? Everybody in the entire story of TBoGT of fake, a liar and selfish, all but Luis and Tony to one and other. That bond was cut with all the distrust from the attempt of Luis's hand of thinking of Killing Tony. In the end, Luis is left with all that bullsh*t, a fake world full of backstabbers. Hell, look at Luis's asshole friends who contently make fun of him. Even his family talk sh*t to him, his own mom tells him off. Lastly, Johnny who lived in a dirty and sad existence in the industrial wasteland that is south Alderny. Johnny spends the whole game thinking he is better than most by thinking he lives free amongst everyone else. Tries to live in his bullsh*t idea of freedom. He soon stats to realize that he isn't free at all and even he is worked by the system with his attempts to keep is illegal livelihood floating among all the child like antics that is brought about by his other "Free living brothers". In the end, Johnny is kinda set free but in doing so he leaves himself lost and damned. He kills off most of the men who he built his whole live upon as his brothers (I'm fairly certain that Johnny and Brain were good friends at one time when they rode in Los Santos together back in 2004 and I know that Johnny and Billy were truly great friends as kids). Lost his best friend, burned down his now dysfunctional club house that he worked so hard to keep running, and not only that, he was left in the cage that is Liberty City, unlike the free Los Santos that he knew back in 2004. Yes, Johnny has a sad ending, as so did all the characters but to be honest, they all deserve it. Niko is a man who kills for money and to find a man who sold out a bunch of murderers. Niko is a hypocrite who comes to Liberty City to get a new life to escape his violent past but also comes to hunt down and kill a man, than while he isn't hunting down people who he is being paid to kill, he questions his actions with self pity only to keep doing what he is doing. Luis is a murdering manic who has no remorse for any of his killings and only sees his killings as just work. He literally shows no questioning of his actions, none at all. It's all just a job to him, and that scares the sh*t out of me. At least Niko questions his actions. Than there is Johnny who does the same thing but has more of a brutal and savage nature to his killings. His murdering is a lot more rage filled than Luis's casualness. And to make it more scary, he sees it has just antics, mindless trouble that can be had on the Angels of Death when they don't have good business truces to be giving. They all assholes, but I love them all. Crime makes such great stories

You have a valid point there, but to be honest I dont't think the ones who created them have taken things to such a depth. You scratched the surface that was intended to be as it is with no depth. I believe you can make these assumptions about real persons, perhaps even fictional characters from movies, but not game characters.

 

Overall, I don't think Johnny ended up worse than he was before. The tension between him and Billy in the clubhouse was worse to live with than be alone. You can still hang out with your friends and the place he has from Brian isnt much worse than the clubhouse mattres. He turned his back on society so he is an outlaw with or no gang.

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Mokrie Dela

IIRC in a phone call after the final mission he says he's leaving town and never coming back. That's what i think he'd do anyway. He lost too much, and walks away from it all. Gets a job in a bar or something

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AceRay
You have a valid point there, but to be honest I dont't think the ones who created them have taken things to such a depth. You scratched the surface that was intended to be as it is with no depth. I believe you can make these assumptions about real persons, perhaps even fictional characters from movies, but not game characters.

Oh you shut the f*ck up right now, it seriously pisses me off when someone says that you're "not supposed to look into games too deeply because nobody asks why Frogger crosses the road," that's completely f*cking retarded. Games have evolved to a state where they can be as deep as films and literatures and denouncing someone's theory because they're "looking too deeply and the game makers probably didn't think about it" is just lazy and pathetic, not to mention insulting to the person who took the time to think aobut. Seriously, you could argue that since the late '90s with Silent Hill and Final Fantasy VII that games were being taken seriously for their storylines and can be interpreted, saying that games are still simple is absolutely wrong. Sorry if this came off as a little bit angry but I simply cannot stand it when people say that you're looking too deeply into games, I remember someone came up with a detailed and thought provoking essay for Silent Hill 2 on another forum and this guy just shot him down and said he was examining it too much.

 

I change my mind on the ending. Johnny kills himself shortly after the events of TLAD by driving his bike off a cliff. The gang was everything to him and losing it absolutely broke him, including Billy's betrayal. He then realizes that he can never save Ashley from her drug addiction, that Jim's family are in despair and can never recover from their debt and his brother can't stand to be around him. He dies alone and helpless.

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Johnny-K

Thats just my opinion, I never ment to fire up any nerd rage here. As I recall, their basic description by the creators seems to slightly contradicte yours.

 

I doubt you're a kid by the amount of depth you analyze things but your last description of Johnny is nothing less as childish trying to shove something like that in my face. Sorry to disappoint but I haven't felt offended by your alternate ending for Johnny even if he is the character who I identify with the most. Even if it were true, it's oly a game, I can play with any character whenever I want.

 

Just remeber it's not my intention to make fun of you or troll you, it's just my point of view, anyone can argue woth another man's view point.

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Nameless Foot Soldier
In my opinion, all three character's have a bad ending. I think of Niko as a broken and empty man by the end of IV left to rot in the watery and rotten cage that is Liberty City, left to wallow in his own hypocritical and sinful actions with the dark ending ("I'll waste inside a cage"). In my opinion Niko was a bad man (He understood this which causes his many moments of self questioning "The creature that could do this has no soul") and so he was left to waste inside the hell that is Liberty City, a prison of corrupted judgment. Luis made it through in the end and survived but in the end, he was left alone as Gay Tony cut all contact and went away. Luis has the money, the girls and the clubs, but is that really a life fulfillment? Everybody in the entire story of TBoGT of fake, a liar and selfish, all but Luis and Tony to one and other. That bond was cut with all the distrust from the attempt of Luis's hand of thinking of Killing Tony. In the end, Luis is left with all that bullsh*t, a fake world full of backstabbers. Hell, look at Luis's asshole friends who contently make fun of him. Even his family talk sh*t to him, his own mom tells him off. Lastly, Johnny who lived in a dirty and sad existence in the industrial wasteland that is south Alderny. Johnny spends the whole game thinking he is better than most by thinking he lives free amongst everyone else. Tries to live in his bullsh*t idea of freedom. He soon stats to realize that he isn't free at all and even he is worked by the system with his attempts to keep is illegal livelihood floating among all the child like antics that is brought about by his other "Free living brothers". In the end, Johnny is kinda set free but in doing so he leaves himself lost and damned. He kills off most of the men who he built his whole live upon as his brothers (I'm fairly certain that Johnny and Brain were good friends at one time when they rode in Los Santos together back in 2004 and I know that Johnny and Billy were truly great friends as kids). Lost his best friend, burned down his now dysfunctional club house that he worked so hard to keep running, and not only that, he was left in the cage that is Liberty City, unlike the free Los Santos that he knew back in 2004. Yes, Johnny has a sad ending, as so did all the characters but to be honest, they all deserve it. Niko is a man who kills for money and to find a man who sold out a bunch of murderers. Niko is a hypocrite who comes to Liberty City to get a new life to escape his violent past but also comes to hunt down and kill a man, than while he isn't hunting down people who he is being paid to kill, he questions his actions with self pity only to keep doing what he is doing. Luis is a murdering manic who has no remorse for any of his killings and only sees his killings as just work. He literally shows no questioning of his actions, none at all. It's all just a job to him, and that scares the sh*t out of me. At least Niko questions his actions. Than there is Johnny who does the same thing but has more of a brutal and savage nature to his killings. His murdering is a lot more rage filled than Luis's casualness. And to make it more scary, he sees it has just antics, mindless trouble that can be had on the Angels of Death when they don't have good business truces to be giving. They all assholes, but I love them all. Crime makes such great stories

You have a valid point there, but to be honest I dont't think the ones who created them have taken things to such a depth. You scratched the surface that was intended to be as it is with no depth. I believe you can make these assumptions about real persons, perhaps even fictional characters from movies, but not game characters.

 

Overall, I don't think Johnny ended up worse than he was before. The tension between him and Billy in the clubhouse was worse to live with than be alone. You can still hang out with your friends and the place he has from Brian isnt much worse than the clubhouse mattres. He turned his back on society so he is an outlaw with or no gang.

Sometimes I do feel that maybe I'm looking too far into this but to be honest, I enjoy this game and its storyline. I have written 4 essays about GTA IV and was actually praised for them by my many English teachers, I enjoy picking apart this game from the inside out. Maybe the creators didn't have that in mind but I know Rockstar did include deep themes for each of the IV characters such as the American Dream, High life and its fake mask, social class bigotry, political corruption, maturity and social understanding of a "system", life and it's troubles and so on and so on. I have spent many among many hours diving deeply into this game and I have fun doing it because this game is more than just a game to me. It's art, it's a relatable world, it has troubled and relatable characters. Not only that but I have been playing this game since I was 15 and I have grown up with it, matured with it. It was my first Xbox game, Episodes from Liberty City was the last game my mom got for me before she passed away. This game and the run I have had with it is more to me than just some game. It's an escape to the greatest city on earth with a relatable sense of depression that I understand. I myself am cynically depressed and to be honest, I find myself relating to Niko and his hypocritical views on the world more often than not. The point I'm trying to make is, sure maybe the creators didn't have all this depth in mind but I enjoy what I do and how I think about it.

 

Now that the personal rant is over. I do believe that the creators meant to go this deep with the story due to the many interviews with Rockstar and Dan Houser. If you don't think so, take a look at this Times Magazine article with Dan Houser about the Lost and Damned.

 

http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/...1879194,00.html

 

There are many things Rockstar thoughtfully put into this games storyline and I enjoy these themes and literacy elements very well. It makes the story so much more interesting than what is on the outside from a quick look. Than to be able and pick apart the characters with such depth is a great and reflecting joy.

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HeNDo6750

TLaD's story in my opinion was a bit dull, especially after completing the game and only left with one apartment and no where else to go after that. IV and TBoGT had the better endings than TLaD had, as well as that the other games (IV and TBoGT) had some funnier moments as well. I think that if The Lost and Damned MC didn't disband, then the story would be a lot better and that the story could have been longer as well.

 

So if that happened then Johnny would be in a better position in LC. But it is R*'s choice of the story, so not too sure what happened to Johnny at the end of the game

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AceRay
Thats just my opinion, I never ment to fire up any nerd rage here. As I recall, their basic description by the creators seems to slightly contradicte yours.

 

I doubt you're a kid by the amount of depth you analyze things but your last description of Johnny is nothing less as childish trying to shove something like that in my face. Sorry to disappoint but I haven't felt offended by your alternate ending for Johnny even if he is the character who I identify with the most. Even if it were true, it's oly a game, I can play with any character whenever I want.

 

Just remeber it's not my intention to make fun of you or troll you, it's just my point of view, anyone can argue woth another man's view point.

yeah, sorry to get a bit butthurt back there.

 

And you can play with any character anyway you want but you cannot change the characteristics given by R* games for the character. Plus, I'm talking about the implications the story. People do change and develop over the story and the Johnny at the start of the game ie the description given by the creators is different to the broken Johnny at the end of the story. He has a character arc and this is where I interpreate the arc goes. I'm not betraying the original game, I'm interpretating it.

 

In fact, I never intended my suicide interpreation to be directed at you, I was just throwing it out there so the topic didn't get off course, not to mention that I figured that out after I posted my previous comment earlier in the thread. I wasn't trying to shove anything down your throat, so sorry if you took it that way.

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