"Good" Realism VS "Bad" Realism

[Rafe]

I don't want ramming to be a huge strategy either. I was just describing how many superpowers your car has. Also, you can take out cops with guns. Ramming doesn't necessarily have to be the only thing, and I would like it to only work according to mass and stuff like you said. However, my point there is that if the cops don't see you, you should be able to hide on foot or in a car and wait for the search to die down while maybe hearing search reports over the radio. I liked GTA IV's physics once I got used to them.

 

Although, indestructible cars and infinite mass would make awesome cheats. With both enabled you could basically push a big rig with a Porsche and the big rig wouldn't be able to slow down. They would be cool cheats.

On the issue of cheats i do actually like the idea of rather simple cheats that alter principle values of the game and don't require a lot of development resources. An infinite life and ammo code would be cool because despite GTA being fun as a game that punishes you sometimes it was also fun to use cheats to screw around. I never saved my gave after i used cheats and in fact cheating was a good way to practice pursuits and firefights as you could be back into the chase in seconds.

 

Infinite mass and indestructible car cheats don't' seem like a big deal to me. I just don't think that should be part fo the game proper.

 

My favorite cheats where infinite ammo and reduce wanted level, sometimes i bit off more then i could chew with police and couldn't get away so rather then go to teh hospital i tried to reset their aggro real quick.

[na89340qv0n34b09q340]

 

First water physics are still computer killers but even if you didn't mean that rendering a sewer system would be a waste of a time. How long are you going to spend down there vs on the surface ? If the development team is required to build and texture an entire sewage system that spans the entire city that's work they cna't do improving AI or doing other building interiors.

 

I cna't imagine a sewer system is hard to put in. I'm no game programmer, but I'd imagine you just create a few simple halls with water in the middle and just copy it over and over. I see the problem with flowing water, but maybe it could flow only at entrance tunnels to sewers, or at places where rivers meet oceans.

 

 

Bus's take up alot of road space and will likely screw up driving as they will choke the roads. Notice they really weren't in GTA4? there was a reason for it. ( that's an example of bad realism). Buses and Heavy traffic would make pursuits impossible. If you commute in a major city and have you can imagine how difficult it would be to integrate this and make it fun.

 

I didn't say there needed to be an infestation of buses. Maybe like four or five buses that run scripted routes around the city. Besides, buses don't make roads un-drive-able, you could dodge trucks/trashmasters in GTA IV, couldn't you? And if rockstar released a game where something they programmed in made other things worse they'd be bad game developers, I'm sure they could just write some sort of new traffic system where cars aren't stupid.

 

 

Interiors would be great but to render interiors you need to sacrifice something else. Processing power isn't infinite so while i would like to see more interiors too i think it's something that has to be considered on a cost/benefit basis.

 

If I understand San Andreas interiors correctly there were five or so interiors (for robberies), and each one was rendered as you walked in. Maybe to avoid loading screens there could be some sort of lock-picking mini-game to get into most houses which would be used as a sort of loading tunnel. Of course this wouldn't work for restaurants or businesses, but it would make the game a bit more realistic.

 

 

A lot of your arguments relied on the dev team being lazy or cutting production time. This thread asks what would make for good realism, not what we expect to see in GTA V.

Edited September 30, 2012 by zoo3891

[GTALegacy]

RE: Buses and dense (realistic) traffic...

 

It was all there in the code, but not activated because consoles don't have enough CPU, GPU and RAM to render those additional resources.

 

PCs do and these things were activated via mods for the PC version of GTA IV.

 

I'm bringing this up because some of the things people want(ed) are (were) already in the game (IV), but due to consoles limited hardware they had to be deactivated, or else the game would slow to single digits.

[cp1dell]

First water physics are still computer killers but even if you didn't mean that rendering a sewer system would be a waste of a time. How long are you going to spend down there vs on the surface ? If the development team is required to build and texture an entire sewage system that spans the entire city that's work they cna't do improving AI or doing other building interiors.

 

I cna't imagine a sewer system is hard to put in. I'm no game programmer, but I'd imagine you just create a few simple halls with water in the middle and just copy it over and over. I see the problem with flowing water, but maybe it could flow only at entrance tunnels to sewers, or at places where rivers meet oceans.

Solution: Pre-render the water. There is no reason it should all be done in real-time. It's not like you'll be manipulating the water. Valve does this for a lot of things, and you won't even notice that the physics are pre-rendered. For example, in Portal 2 at the very beginning when the little hotel room is crashing through the whole place, all the tiles and little chunks of dry-wall were pre-rendered with the physics engine, so they would react and move like they should.

[Nero1024]

 

First water physics are still computer killers but even if you didn't mean that rendering a sewer system would be a waste of a time. How long are you going to spend down there vs on the surface ? If the development team is required to build and texture an entire sewage system that spans the entire city that's work they cna't do improving AI or doing other building interiors.

 

I cna't imagine a sewer system is hard to put in. I'm no game programmer, but I'd imagine you just create a few simple halls with water in the middle and just copy it over and over. I see the problem with flowing water, but maybe it could flow only at entrance tunnels to sewers, or at places where rivers meet oceans.

Solution: Pre-render the water. There is no reason it should all be done in real-time. It's not like you'll be manipulating the water. Valve does this for a lot of things, and you won't even notice that the physics are pre-rendered. For example, in Portal 2 at the very beginning when the little hotel room is crashing through the whole place, all the tiles and little chunks of dry-wall were pre-rendered with the physics engine, so they would react and move like they should.

Pre-Rendering stuff tends to eat-up disk space hard-core (Which I hear has become precious again on DVD's).

[Rafe]

I cna't imagine a sewer system is hard to put in. I'm no game programmer, but I'd imagine you just create a few simple halls with water in the middle and just copy it over and over. I see the problem with flowing water, but maybe it could flow only at entrance tunnels to sewers, or at places where rivers meet oceans.

 

 

Do they have to be rendered while teh normal environment is rendered ? Meaning that additional processing resources are dedicated to making sure sewer systems exist as you drive over then or walk over them ? Or is this somethign that will load as you descend a manhole?

 

Since processing resources as well as storage resources are finite is this really somethign that would add to the game? To ask another way are you going to be spending large volumes of time in the sewer to justify the concessions that will be necessary to render teh additional geometry, lighting effects, sound assets, scripted entities? This is to say we will have to suffer fewer pedestrians, textures or vehicles in teh surface streets because somebody just wants something extra.

 

 

Think about GTA 4, how much time would have have spent in the sewers if every street had a manhole and you could enter the sewers and run around down there?

 

Sewers are a bad idea. Building interiors are where these development resources should be spent.

[GTALegacy]

 

Think about GTA 4, how much time would have have spent in the sewers if every street had a manhole and you could enter the sewers and run around down there?

 

We would spend AT LEAST one mission (maybe two?) where it is mandatory to go underground similar to the ones in IV where you chase the bikers into the subway and "Three Leaf Clover" where you escape via the subway system.

 

However, I get what you mean, and I fully agree a sewer system is NOT essential to the overall game play, let alone atmospherics, or even "realism".

 

To keep this discussion going in a slightly different direction, here are some of the actual mods I've referred to in previous posts for those who have IV on PC and want to play the game with PROCEDURAL REALISM:

 

Ultimate Fuel Script 1.2 <-- Cars require gas.

 

Weapons Bag and Movement Mod <-- Nikos movement is determined by the weapons he carries in his bag.

 

Mechanic's Mod <-- Fix damaged cars like "Mafia II".

 

Bank Account Mod <-- Store blood money in bank accounts while earning interest and withdraw from ATMs all over LC.

 

The reason some of these things were not included in the default GTA IV is because they enhance the realism (obviously), but at the expense of forcing players to play a certain way e.g. the Weapons Bag Mod that effects movement speed due to weight vs. giving players total freedom to play the game unencumbered.

[Rafe]

 

Think about GTA 4, how much time would have have spent in the sewers if every street had a manhole and you could enter the sewers and run around down there?

 

We would spend AT LEAST one mission (maybe two?) where it is mandatory to go underground similar to the ones in IV where you chase the bikers into the subway and "Three Leaf Clover" where you escape via the subway system.

 

However, I get what you mean, and I fully agree a sewer system is NOT essential to the overall game play, let alone atmospherics, or even "realism".

 

 

If your only going to spend one or two missions in a sewer system then it could itself be a separate map, like the airplane interior in the BOGT. If it's a seperate map it doesn't need to take up the entire city but only a maybe half a square km.

 

As far as that LATD chase mission, those train tracks are accessible by motorcycle or vehicle outside of missions and the trains serve as a functional system to get around liberty city rather quickly on foot.

 

I don't see a sewer system offering something that is useful outside of a story mission and so i would only add something like that if it had context in the story. As far as making an entire sewer grid under the city, that is a total waste of resources.

 

Also what was i getting at is are the sewers going to serve as an integral gameplay mechanic even outside of story missions in that we would spend a significant portion of game time in the sewers to warrant the development team creating assets to create sewers.

 

What exactly are you going to be doing down in the sewers in non mission gameplay that makes it necessary to cover some % of the city with them ?

[Racecarlock]

Guys, if you want to discuss a sewer system, create a separate topic. Right now we're talking about realism that would enhance the gameplay without getting in the way of anything versus realism that would please the RP fans but piss off the rest of us.

[Rafe]

So let me stick my neck out there since i've been highly critical of many of the posters here.

 

One thing i would consider tremendously unrealistic is bullet time or deadeye like in RDR. These features allow the controller to use time to their advantage to make more precise aiming adjustments with the cross hairs.

 

Many people consider this concept unrealistic and only accept it if it has some story related element.

 

I would like to see GTA have some means to slow down time to making aiming more precise, particularly when aiming a weapon in a from a vehicle as this was often very difficult especially if you are maneuvering.

 

I would justify this by saying that the neck and the arm of our protagonist is unrealistically controlled by the thumb flexor( if your on a gamepad) and since the thumb flexor has fewer muscles then the neck or the arm something could compensate.

 

This would be something that would seem potentially unrealisitc but i think it would enhance gameplay and help compensate for player overload when they are trying to do many things at once as modern games complexity are beginning to outpace the interfaces we use to play them.

 

I personally would not need a story element or any explanation why it's in there. I think it should just be in there and infact GTA 4 did give you the option to slow down time but ONLY if you where in a birds eye cam view and pressed R3 ( or something) .. This only assisted you if you were driving as you couldn't aim while doing this. It only helped with driving if the bird cam, which was randomly assigned, happened to give you the correct angle.

[Racecarlock]

So let me stick my neck out there since i've been highly critical of many of the posters here.

 

One thing i would consider tremendously unrealistic is bullet time or deadeye like in RDR. These features allow the controller to use time to their advantage to make more precise aiming adjustments with the cross hairs.

 

Many people consider this concept unrealistic and only accept it if it has some story related element.

 

I would like to see GTA have some means to slow down time to making aiming more precise, particularly when aiming a weapon in a from a vehicle as this was often very difficult especially if you are maneuvering.

 

I would justify this by saying that the neck and the arm of our protagonist is unrealistically controlled by the thumb flexor( if your on a gamepad) and since the thumb flexor has fewer muscles then the neck or the arm something could compensate.

 

This would be something that would seem potentially unrealisitc but i think it would enhance gameplay and help compensate for player overload when they are trying to do many things at once as modern games complexity are beginning to outpace the interfaces we use to play them.

 

I personally would not need a story element or any explanation why it's in there. I think it should just be in there and infact GTA 4 did give you the option to slow down time but ONLY if you where in a birds eye cam view and pressed R3 ( or something) .. This only assisted you if you were driving as you couldn't aim while doing this. It only helped with driving if the bird cam, which was randomly assigned, happened to give you the correct angle.

I feel this might be relevant. http://psychologytodayblog.blogspot.com/20...time-per-6.html

 

Maybe with enough training, the brain can still slow down time, and, well, you are technically acting as the protagonists' brain.

[Racecarlock]

I feel this discussion is relevant again, so it's coming back. Sorry for double post mods.

[Signal1]

Okay.

lol. Exactly. Its only the OP's opinion.

[Bent]

Agreed 100% I'm all for realism as long as it adds something to the game, and isn't just a chore I have to deal with in real life.

Exactly what i was going to say

[Tynamite]

lol sims

[Racecarlock]

Fuel recently popped up again, so I feel my topic is relevant again.

[nimblelinn]

Recently, a lot of topics have popped up with the subject of "Fun Vs. Realism" as though the two are like oil and water, so I decided to reframe this debate. It's not a question of realism or fun, but good realism and bad realism. What follows are what I define as such.

 

Good realism is pretty simple. Have the environment feel like a real environment. Do things like (Copy paste) have peds use taxis and public transportation. Public transportation will have all forms open this time, this means a bus system. You can have peds checking out clothing in malls and even clothes going over metal bars in dressing rooms. You could have packed movie theaters with peds getting popcorn and you could also be able to get popcorn. Hell, have some movie parodies in there you could watch. Working amusement park, anyone? Peds getting food, buying their roller coaster photos, getting on roller coasters, complaining about long lines. Hell, have peds get on their laptops in the streets or playing a game/using an app on their smart phone. Be able to sit anywhere you want. Have celebrity red carpet appearances at various vinewood theaters with paparazzi and everything.

 

Then there's bad realism, which is a bit harder to pin, but I think I've got it down to things that limit what the player can do or how long he can free roam before doing a timed thing. These range from hunger, to injuries, to traffic laws, to fuel. I think if these are added, they should be optional. Because these are things that not everyone enjoys. I feel that fuel and hunger would just be mindless chores, traffic laws would have me being pulled over every minute, and injuries would just punish everyone who enjoys doing stupid stunts. I know these people might not matter to you, but forcing people to role play would remove that element of being able to choose your own play style that's been a core part of GTA since the top down games. This is why these features should be optional if implemented. Otherwise, they interfere with people who don't necessarily want to play hyper-realistically.

 

That's what I think anyways. What do you guys think?

i agree with that, I think your right. THERE SHOULD BE OPTIONS TO CHANGE THE REALISM! or how difficult certain aspects are.

[Diesleman]

Not interested in fuel and hunger because I don't believe it actually 'adds' anything.

Progression though as suggested is the go. Cars become easier to handle, aiming more efficient, and I really liked the idea of the fence climbing to, though you could

apply the same theory to many things.

As far as falling, 3 - 4 stories is the max you should be able to survive IMO.

I actually feel a slip in immersion if my player falls for ages and doesn't die.

And yes, a sewer system with no life or anything interesting even if used in the plot

would be a total waste of resources, unless, you know, the game is fully based or half based

in the sewers, which I think is an unlikely angle for R to take...

Edited January 12, 2013 by Diesleman

[gta5freemode4eva]

I like a realistic word world to do fun/stupid things in. A realistic version of LA is brilliant, this added with 'cars float when hit (SA)' cheat would be v funny! The slow motion (adrenaline) pills that were in SA, not very realistic but VERY fun.

 

I would like to be able to follow someone one their way to work, like a gardener, he gets on the bus, then gets and off goes to his/her actual place of work and after he/she actually goes to their house (think sims in terms of people have their own actual place), this would be very very realistic and I think it would add to the game... be able to run them over or magnet lift their bus with a helicopter is bit far fetched but it would be very fun!!!

 

Realistic world with fun/silly things to do in it and I think it would be perfect. Bring the SA fun back I say.

 

I would like to see a fuel in the game but only if it wasn't a chore. It would add to the game IMO if once in a while you were caught short before the pumps and you would have to think differently about how to complete a mission or get away from the cops. Say fuel lasts 5x as long as it does in R/L.

 

Realistically when you fall over or fly through the window in a car crash you will most likely be injured and crippled maybe (or death), this in the game wouldn't be great (the death thing). I agree that health should come off but realistically you would get up very slow... which is what GTA 4 was like. This was frustrating so speed it up (less realistic).

 

more to add but gotta walk the dog

 

[ill-thoughts]

id LOVE the fuel idea, even if its optional to turn on and off. as an exploration and casual free roamer, it would Really make the game feel super realistic to have these elements....and not just feel like your in an arcade world with unlimited gas. Mafia 2 did it and it worked fine....Midnight Club LA would have done well to have this option too.

[Diesleman]

id LOVE the fuel idea, even if its optional to turn on and off. as an exploration and casual free roamer, it would Really make the game feel super realistic to have these elements....and not just feel like your in an arcade world with unlimited gas. Mafia 2 did it and it worked fine....Midnight Club LA would have done well to have this option too.

Yeah but dude, that's only if you think about. I mean god damn, what exactly would it add to the game? Nothing at all, except a pointless task. If you add fuel purely based on the fact that ' it isn't realistic ' then you can only justify that by making every little thing else super realistic, which as we have discussed, would suck f*cking ass.

[theworldfamous]

There is no good and bad realism. I could think of games where some of the realisticy mechanics that you and i would hate to see in GTA would make for really fun and interesting gameplay. It's all about context and framing.

 

And realism in games.. euh.. I'm pressing a couple of buttons and explosions happen all around me and I'm a total ninja. That's never gonna be realistic.

[Algonquin Assassin]

id LOVE the fuel idea, even if its optional to turn on and off. as an exploration and casual free roamer, it would Really make the game feel super realistic to have these elements....and not just feel like your in an arcade world with unlimited gas. Mafia 2 did it and it worked fine....Midnight Club LA would have done well to have this option too.

Yeah but dude, that's only if you think about. I mean god damn, what exactly would it add to the game? Nothing at all, except a pointless task. If you add fuel purely based on the fact that ' it isn't realistic ' then you can only justify that by making every little thing else super realistic, which as we have discussed, would suck f*cking ass.

There is one good thing about fuel. Stuff a shirt down the tank, light it and watch it go KABOOM!!

[Racecarlock]

id LOVE the fuel idea, even if its optional to turn on and off. as an exploration and casual free roamer, it would Really make the game feel super realistic to have these elements....and not just feel like your in an arcade world with unlimited gas. Mafia 2 did it and it worked fine....Midnight Club LA would have done well to have this option too.

Yeah but dude, that's only if you think about. I mean god damn, what exactly would it add to the game? Nothing at all, except a pointless task. If you add fuel purely based on the fact that ' it isn't realistic ' then you can only justify that by making every little thing else super realistic, which as we have discussed, would suck f*cking ass.

There is one good thing about fuel. Stuff a shirt down the tank, light it and watch it go KABOOM!!

Yes, we do know we can pour gas trails and set them on fire. Somehow they did it. They made fuel fun. And they did it in the only way it's possible to make it fun, in my opinion.

 

And to those who are about to bitch at me for bringing an old topic back, if I started a new topic, it would probably get locked with a link back to this topic. Plus, people would bitch at me for this topic already existing and being good enough to bring back, so don't bitch at me for bringing it back.

[TheIllaDopest]

Maybe the fuel tank is optional you can use to burn stuff or to use it in your car. And I personally think it would add the fact that noobs will be have toa get out of the vehicle in multiplayer would have to get down and get this gas tank

[Racecarlock]

I think this topic is very relevant again. People are bringing up traffic laws and random ID checks so I'd better bring this back as an explanation for why those won't work in GTA.

[Racecarlock]

Since this is a topic of debate again, I think I should bring this topic back with this bump.

[meta187]

You the guy who shot me a line on Youtube?

[Racecarlock]

You the guy who shot me a line on Youtube?

I think that was a different guy. This is a subject for private messages though.

[GroundZero]

Recently, a lot of topics have popped up with the subject of "Fun Vs. Realism" as though the two are like oil and water, so I decided to reframe this debate. It's not a question of realism or fun, but good realism and bad realism. What follows are what I define as such.

 

Good realism is pretty simple. Have the environment feel like a real environment. Do things like (Copy paste) have peds use taxis and public transportation. Public transportation will have all forms open this time, this means a bus system. You can have peds checking out clothing in malls and even clothes going over metal bars in dressing rooms. You could have packed movie theaters with peds getting popcorn and you could also be able to get popcorn. Hell, have some movie parodies in there you could watch. Working amusement park, anyone? Peds getting food, buying their roller coaster photos, getting on roller coasters, complaining about long lines. Hell, have peds get on their laptops in the streets or playing a game/using an app on their smart phone. Be able to sit anywhere you want. Have celebrity red carpet appearances at various vinewood theaters with paparazzi and everything.

 

Then there's bad realism, which is a bit harder to pin, but I think I've got it down to things that limit what the player can do or how long he can free roam before doing a timed thing. These range from hunger, to injuries, to traffic laws, to fuel. I think if these are added, they should be optional. Because these are things that not everyone enjoys. I feel that fuel and hunger would just be mindless chores, traffic laws would have me being pulled over every minute, and injuries would just punish everyone who enjoys doing stupid stunts. I know these people might not matter to you, but forcing people to role play would remove that element of being able to choose your own play style that's been a core part of GTA since the top down games. This is why these features should be optional if implemented. Otherwise, they interfere with people who don't necessarily want to play hyper-realistically.

 

That's what I think anyways. What do you guys think?

One of the best opinions I have seen on realism. It would be pretty awesome for GTA V to have these features