"Good" Realism VS "Bad" Realism

[Racecarlock]

 

 

This is pretty much why I would hate traffic laws. Even if you only have to drive normally around the cops it would still be annoying.

[mediocore]

I'm not even sure realism is the right word.

 

Just look at GTA IV, a whole bunch of stuff in that game was crazy and completely mental. Obviously not in a Saints Row "Look at how out of the box we are" bat sh*t, balls to the wall approach but for example a helicopter chase in between skyscrapers wasn't realistic but it was bloody cinematic and I think that's the buzz word with game developers these days.

[Dan001]

In SanAndreas when taking a jump in a car, remember how you could move and tilt your car mid-air? You can't do that in real life, but you can in SanAndreas. Anybody who's done car stunting knows how valuable this feature is.

Imagine taking that feature away for realism's sake. That would suck.

I think GTAIV has this feature, too. Could be wrong.

 

I just hope GTAV does not sacrifice fun features for realism.

Give me realistic graphics, sounds and options. Leave everything else to the imagination.

 

 

 

 

[Algonquin Assassin]

 

gta4's realism fails when you go to the cabaret club and suddenly people are just being randomly stabbed and mutilated on stage and the next act starts in a completely unrealistic way. f*ck I hate that cabaret club. f*ck the Incredible Kleinman. Wow a dude abusing his wife is so funny, thanks R*!

 

Hopefully gta5 dosnt have anything as stupid as that f*cking horrible cabaret club.

It wasn't his wife. It was his assistant and what's this got to do with realism anyway? It's a god damn Cabaret Club. It's not supposed to make sense.

 

 

Edited September 29, 2012 by Miamivicecity

[cp1dell]

I feel like some people don't understand GTA and realism.

 

GTA isn't a realistic game, I'm sorry to say. It's like a crime-drama action hollywood movie with realistic elements. It's like an alternate reality where all the things you can do in GTA (kill hundreds of people, constantly evade the police etc.) are possible, but the rest of life applies. There is also the fact that this is a game and they want to keep that atmosphere of a game in it, fuel and hunger don't really fit.

[Rafe]

This is a rather complex topic because a lot of people will cite fuel or social relationships eroding or enhancing and the tedium required to accomplish those things. I would agree that those "realistic features" did not or could not(in the case of fuel) add anything to the game. However i will say that the driving in 4 was perfect.

 

The cars where sluggish, they had momentum and traveling at extremely high speeds was often very dangerous. This added elements of strategy to pursuits because you could not just smash the accelerator and always get away(unless your in algonquin). You often times had to use good cornering, alleyways, existing aggregated traffic to your advantage to create bottle-necks for the cop AI.

 

Weakening a player rather then giving them more power has been demonstrated to make a game more thrilling. Games like Amnesia demonstrate this, how many fear reaction Youtubes are there of Doom 3 where you run around with an advanced military arsenal in your pocket ? Amnesia has plenty of grown men descend into infancy when they are pursued by demonic entities in the dark.

 

I think many times that this debate comes up it involves players wanting more and more power. People want a quick get out a jail when the cops chase them, just smash the accelerator and i got away. You simply shouldn't be able to do this. Vehicle pursuits should be difficult and require strategy and HOPEFULLY preplanning and knowledge of the enviornment. Gamers don't want to think

 

Another issue with teh cars is mass. If my Porsche or sportster can knock ram into an oncoming suv or dump truck and knock it off the road and yet my car continues to drive fine that is simply unacceptable. No gamer should be rewarded for that type of driving, there is no skill involved unless you've chosen a massive vehicle and are using that as your strategy.

 

Some of my most fun pursuits in GTA 4 are when i've been in rather crappy vehicles. I've had a few pursuits in high performance vehicles but the ones i remember where rather mundane common autos.

 

Another issue is combat. I've been castigated on this site for saying the military should not be deployed to stop you. I think SWAT should be something you fear. Yes you should be able to kill SWAT but you better do so and have a few retreat plans. You better shoot and move and use their conservative tactics to your advantage to put distance between their personal.

 

The impression i get and some of the youtubes I've seen suggest to me that people want to stand in the middle of the street and destroy everything in their wake. That's cool if there is a terminator cheat code where you can't die( and i would try that after i win the game or to relieve some stress) but not penalizing people for getting shot repeatedly because they refuse to move or use cover or engage in strategic retreat to funnel advancing police personal into a small formation arc so you attenuate your firing zone and essentially have less surface area for your gun site to explore should be rewarded.

 

These 2 things could be viewed as too realistic resulting in tedium based solely on play style. Some people do want to blow off steam and don't want to commit to a lot of prethought and strategy and that is fine, they want to point and shoot and slam on the accelerator and ignore impacts and collisions, the traffic just being meaningless ambient noise to them when the cops chase them.

 

This is not the game i want to play because what i've just described is saints row.

[Brr_]

The reason it was tedious was because just like in real life you had to take time out of your busy schedule, drive all the way across the city, drive to the activity, do the activity and then drive the friend back to wherever they wanted (not necessarily their home).

Isn't this basically a generalization of every single GTA mission? The only difference being that you insert a gunfight or a vehicular chase into the equation most of the time?

The difference is the missions are a required part of the game players automatically accept if they want to play through the story... And the biggest difference is you are given a lot more freedom DURING the missions vs. taking someone out on a date, or activity. They are not tedious because this is the reason you are playing the game in the first place.

 

Sure, the biggest flaw that EFLC addressed was there was no check point system, so you had to repeat the ENTIRE process even if you were killed where the mission took place... But again, a majority of the missions allowed you to tackle things the way you wanted unless you had an A.I. partner with you e.g. Phil, Jacob, etc.

 

However, my main point is a lot of people don't know the difference between Environmental Realism and Procedural Realism (like the OP addressed) and Procedural Realism is what can kill the underlying fun in a game a lot faster rather than making it feel more "real" like a lot of players erroneously think.

Very well said, I understand your point. if you don't mind, I'm going to switch directions a bit and ask you to address another concern with respect to "procedural" and "environmental" realism...

 

In my humble opinion, sometimes GTA IV (including EoLC) was too easy. I mean, I don't think I've ever lost a gun fight, all you have to do is hit R1 > R2 > Repeat as fast as you can and your character will kill everyone within his field of vision. With such a simplistic combat system, it feels necessary to include realism to make easy things a little more difficult.

 

What's even worse is that I play GTA IV with no hands, using a PS3 controller, with zero modifications or assistance. I'm constantly fumbling with the controller and can't even click more than 2-3 buttons at a time, and yet I consider many parts of the game to be ridiculously easy... I couldn't imagine how simple it is for most other players. How would you feel about removing auto-aim for the sake of 'realism' and 'difficulty'?

stop using auto aim ffs

[na89340qv0n34b09q340]

I'm going to use this to point out some realistic things I'd like to see in GTA V, as examples of good realism.

 

First I'd like to see an incredibly improved infrastructure. GTA IV was all about how the city had life, the developers added a literal beating heart to represent this, yet the only life I've ever seen are window-washers, usable taxis/subways, and violent police interrogations. What if the we had a real dam with flowing water, and an explorable sewage system in which water goes in one end and comes out another, running under the houses in the city? (I've seen this next one pointed out, but I don't remember where) What if instead of just taking the taxi or subway we could wait at a bus stop and have a ride on the good old bus, and maybe if the bus is bombed the entire bus system would be shut down for an in-game day or two? What if repair crews worked on walls/windows/etc. in town where car crashes occurred (all scripted events, of course)? I'd like to see an actual city in this (or a future) gta game.

 

Second I'd like to see interiors all over the city. Maybe they could use the same interior for a lot of buildings like in the GTA: SA robbery side-missions, but the lack of enter-able buildings always bothered me. I mean, your house isn't a shell full of concrete, is it? (Actually that's not really funny, some people have problems like this.)

 

 

Bad realism can be found all over the place, but here are two of my least favorite ideas.

 

Let's take eating for example. If it took fifteen minutes to eat a burger at a real-life burger shot I don't want to spend fifteen real minutes eating a burger in the game. The same thing with driving, I don't want to spend time driving realistic distances in a fictional city (I'd play RDR if I did, and even that has unrealistic distances compared to a real city). Basically if you flesh things out time-wise to create realism, you've got a tedious time-consuming game.

 

Back when I lurked the original grand theft auto wiki (before all that wikia drama) there was a concept thread that had an infinite amount of posts asking what people'd like to see in the next gta. A big thing I saw was gasoline to put in cars. Your millage will probably vary on this, but it sounds a lot like the stat building/maintenance in GTA: SA, and that forced the player to stop having fun and stick to a routine. I for one didn't like the sudden threat of death while flying an airplane high over the evergreen countryside, and I sure as hell don't want to be nagged for driving for too long. In fact, I'd suggest keeping things you have to maintain to their respective game genres.

[Rafe]

What if the we had a real dam with flowing water,

 

explorable sewage system

 

interiors

 

 

First water physics are still computer killers but even if you didn't mean that rendering a sewer system would be a waste of a time. How long are you going to spend down there vs on the surface ? If the development team is required to build and texture an entire sewage system that spans the entire city that's work they cna't do improving AI or doing other building interiors.

 

Bus's take up alot of road space and will likely screw up driving as they will choke the roads. Notice they really weren't in GTA4? there was a reason for it. ( that's an example of bad realism). Buses and Heavy traffic would make pursuits impossible. If you commute in a major city and have you can imagine how difficult it would be to integrate this and make it fun.

 

Interiors would be great but to render interiors you need to sacrifice something else. Processing power isn't infinite so while i would like to see more interiors too i think it's something that has to be considered on a cost/benefit basis.

[K-E316]

It may be possible to identify good and bad elements depending on the following criteria:

1. Does it alter the pace of the game?
2. Does it interrupt the play by forcing a menial and/or unimportant task?
3. Is it entertaining?

This. I also completely agree with TC. The people who want fuel can especially go f*ck themselves.

[018361]

FFS The fuel system wouldn't be a "chore" You are just ignorant and unwilling to listen to reason.

[Dan001]

BAD: Like in GTAIV, as somebody mentioned earlier, when you climb/hop a wall there is this whole animation and camera angle that takes place.

Do away with things like that, I say - or make it an option ffs.

 

GOOD: But you know what? Niko's animation for breaking and entering a vehicle is an example of nicely implemented realism.

It's a good thing you didn't fly out the front window after a hard collision too often because that would be annoying. I like how IV uses that sparingly.

 

GOOD: A realistic feature in SA was being able to eat food. CJ loses energy when you don't eat as you should. Even though this is realistic, you lose health at a slow rate. If you like that feature, go ahead, eat often, build your stats and get big! If you don't like that feature, then it's alright - don't use it, as it really doesn't affect your game play.

 

 

 

 

 

[Racecarlock]

This is a rather complex topic because a lot of people will cite fuel or social relationships eroding or enhancing and the tedium required to accomplish those things. I would agree that those "realistic features" did not or could not(in the case of fuel) add anything to the game. However i will say that the driving in 4 was perfect.

 

The cars where sluggish, they had momentum and traveling at extremely high speeds was often very dangerous. This added elements of strategy to pursuits because you could not just smash the accelerator and always get away(unless your in algonquin). You often times had to use good cornering, alleyways, existing aggregated traffic to your advantage to create bottle-necks for the cop AI.

 

Weakening a player rather then giving them more power has been demonstrated to make a game more thrilling. Games like Amnesia demonstrate this, how many fear reaction Youtubes are there of Doom 3 where you run around with an advanced military arsenal in your pocket ? Amnesia has plenty of grown men descend into infancy when they are pursued by demonic entities in the dark.

 

I think many times that this debate comes up it involves players wanting more and more power. People want a quick get out a jail when the cops chase them, just smash the accelerator and i got away. You simply shouldn't be able to do this. Vehicle pursuits should be difficult and require strategy and HOPEFULLY preplanning and knowledge of the enviornment. Gamers don't want to think

 

Another issue with teh cars is mass. If my Porsche or sportster can knock ram into an oncoming suv or dump truck and knock it off the road and yet my car continues to drive fine that is simply unacceptable. No gamer should be rewarded for that type of driving, there is no skill involved unless you've chosen a massive vehicle and are using that as your strategy.

 

Some of my most fun pursuits in GTA 4 are when i've been in rather crappy vehicles. I've had a few pursuits in high performance vehicles but the ones i remember where rather mundane common autos.

 

Another issue is combat. I've been castigated on this site for saying the military should not be deployed to stop you. I think SWAT should be something you fear. Yes you should be able to kill SWAT but you better do so and have a few retreat plans. You better shoot and move and use their conservative tactics to your advantage to put distance between their personal.

 

The impression i get and some of the youtubes I've seen suggest to me that people want to stand in the middle of the street and destroy everything in their wake. That's cool if there is a terminator cheat code where you can't die( and i would try that after i win the game or to relieve some stress) but not penalizing people for getting shot repeatedly because they refuse to move or use cover or engage in strategic retreat to funnel advancing police personal into a small formation arc so you attenuate your firing zone and essentially have less surface area for your gun site to explore should be rewarded.

 

These 2 things could be viewed as too realistic resulting in tedium based solely on play style. Some people do want to blow off steam and don't want to commit to a lot of prethought and strategy and that is fine, they want to point and shoot and slam on the accelerator and ignore impacts and collisions, the traffic just being meaningless ambient noise to them when the cops chase them.

 

This is not the game i want to play because what i've just described is saints row.

I think all of those problems can be solved by improved AI. Just look at need for speed most wanted for instance. You have a car made of adamantium that can smash through anything and everything, has regenerating nitro, and you have an ability that lets you slow down time and make your car somehow even more solid to smash the cops out of the way.

 

Yet, despite all that, the cops are still hard as sh*t to get away from. Firstly, when you go up heat levels, the cops get better cars, and on the 4th heat level (max heat level is 5) they add in spike strips that'll pretty much end the whole pursuit right there by completely stopping your car, and even if they don't, one single popped tire results in a bust. Not only that, but they use tactics on every level. The rolling road block, the box, the pit maneuver, ramming you from the sides and back, calling in SUVS to ram your ass off the road, and calling in an air unit to track you in case the ground units are eliminated and can't catch up.

 

Of course, it's not like you don't have strategies. Once you smash through all cops or straight up out run them, you then have a cool down period. During this time, you can get to hiding places highlighted on the map and in the world by blue circles. Going into them will speed up the cool down and the cops can't even detect you when they drive right by. Yet, if they catch you outside of these circles, the pursuit is back on, and trust me it's way harder than it sounds, because smashing cop cars and felony evading happens to make the police increase their patrols.

 

All of that combines to make exciting as hell police chases, despite the fact your car is basically invulnerable and has regenerating nitro. I think the same could work for IV.

 

In police chases, they should use real police strategies. In standoffs and shootouts, they should use flanking and other various shootout strategies. They should work together to make it so that even though you can take hundreds of bullets and live and can fit rocket launchers in your underwear, you're still scared. I don't think jail or bleeding out or injuries are nessecary to do that. Have them flank you, have them fight you, have them be intelligent, and you'll not only get that thrill, but the thrill gets even bigger once you've evaded them and felt like you've beat something smart. Like you've beat something strong. You just evaded the smartest cops you've ever encountered, and you feel great.

 

Does that sound good?

[bluetops]

Summary: Good realism is where you have a lot of things to do with your five senses and making the environment feel more alive.

 

Bad realism is where you have meters to continouously fill up again and again.

 

 

There, I like that!

[GTALegacy]

The underlying factor here is processing power.

 

This applies to EVERY SINGLE THING we are talking about and that is multiplied (negatively) when we are talking about consoles with almost decades old hardware at this point.

 

Developers can do wonders working with limited resources, but of course, there is a limit.

 

This is one of the reasons (as stated) why there aren't that many buildings that can be entered. I think the only consistent buildings you can go completely from the outside in and vice versa are the safe houses... And this applies to the very basic ones, not multistory homes like Playboy X, or the one on the waterfront Roman buys you later in the game.

 

However, here is something many of you may not know:

 

The RAGE engine has no real physics for the vehicles. Euphoria only applies to motion capture and rag doll animations

 

I know this because "Kilometre", the guy who made the "Realistic Driving & Flying Mod" details this in-depth on his site. All of the so-called vehicular physics are hardcoded and just various scripts that are activated whenever something happens e.g. you crash into another car, you hit a wall, etc. Not only this, but the hard coded physics that exist are backwards -- literally -- To give the cars that floaty, Hollywood stunt driving feeling e.g. cars have negative grip when accelerating, etc.

 

This is a perfect example of developing a game to be efficient code-wise because of the limited hardware in the 360 and PS3.

 

So, this is another reason a lot of these procedural realism additions being discussed would just bog down the CPU cycles that could go to other things that would make the game far more enjoyable, realistic or not.

 

Like I said, if you have a good PC and own GTA IV, you CAN play the game like a lot of people want.

 

There are mods that do a majority of the requests in this thread... Fuel, limping, bleeding out, etc... But like I said earlier, it changes the game in a negative way because the game is still an arcade game underneath and all the procedural elements these mods add don't exactly fit into that overall design e.g. If you get a five star wanted level they send everything they have after you... But the limping when shot scripts give the A.I. an unfair advantage after just a few shots, etc.

 

Granted, this is because the game is not balanced to be more realistic and that includes much better A.I. that uses real tactics versus just overwhelming you, but adding procedural realism changes the core game play of the game and turns it into a simulator that many GTA fans don't want, myself included.

[GTALegacy]

 

FFS The fuel system wouldn't be a "chore" You are just ignorant and unwilling to listen to reason.

Actually, there is no practical reason for a fuel system in GTA because...

 

How many of you play through the game with ONE car?

 

I'm going to bet the answer is almost zero because...

 

A) Most of the missions that involve driving a vehicle (truck, boat, car), the vehicle is given to you. Sometimes the mission depends on the vehicle itself e.g. "Rigged to Blow" where you have to drive the truck full of explosives safely to Bohan, and detonate it.

 

B) The horrid A.I. traffic that changes lanes randomly makes keeping a car in one piece all but impossible.

 

C) You have limited number of parking spaces even spread out over three, or four safe houses.

 

So, it's not even the fact it would be a chore per say. It's just not needed because of the reasons above. The resources that could go toward a fuel management system could go toward something else that would actually enhance the game play and not restrict it, either.

[Rafe]

You have a car made of adamantium that can smash through anything and everything,

 

....

 

Does that sound good?

Well that's the thing. I'm not necessary adverse to ramming other vehicles. Ramming other vehicles is actually a strategy security personnel use to ensure the safety of their principles. However these agents are typically driving rather heavy vehicles and not "Need for Speed" Glass canons. That is to say cars that would normally be dismantled by heavy impact because the car is optimized for speed and acceleration and thus has low weight. I don't think a sportster or high performance vehicles should be able to engage in melee combat with cops and survive this unless we are talking about a few failed pit maneuvers. Those cars should give the player added advantage of speed vs decreased integrity of teh vehicle.

 

If you want to smash and roll over cops you should have to pick the correct vehicle to do it and that means sacrificing speed for mass.

 

The strategy of avoiding collission of a cop car is far more difficult then ramming into them because often times cops want you to do exactly that, ram into their cars and slowly cripple yours or even stop you.

 

What i was initially talking about was the ability of a smaller car to ram a larger vehicle out of the way and this is one fo the reasons i stopped playing Crackdown after a few minutes. I felt like i was playing a developers tool that held my hand or some sort of unfinished product. It never punished me.

 

What your describing is saint's row in that you want adamantium cars, why do we "NEED" that? why shouldn't our cars be destroyed on collision if we are driving to fast, unless it's a massive truck? The problem here is that i think you want driving fast to be the optimal strategy eliminating pursuits at 30 or 40 MPH, or possibly even slower. Yes i've been in pursuits where i have slowed down so as to maintain more control over my car and used that enhanced control and slower speed to give me time to survey environmental conditions and get away strategically. The only problem with this is if the cops are coming in behind you hard and fast they tend to ram you suicidally which is rather unrealistic to say the least.

 

I simply don't like the evocation of Need for Speed because need for speed is a game about .... Speed. Not all police pursuits should require that as a means to escape.

 

IN addition sometimes your car shouldn't be enough. Sometimes you should have to bail out and use your gun and your feet to escape. Jump a fence run through a house fire at few shots to force the police into cover then move down the fire escape onto the street again and carjack some elderly women's station wagon.

 

That's the kinda experience a pursuit should be not simply slamming the accelerator which is what i think your essentially asking me. So no it doesn't sound good and a pray GTA never becomes need for speed.

[Racecarlock]

 

You have a car made of adamantium that can smash through anything and everything,

 

....

 

Does that sound good?

Well that's the thing. I'm not necessary adverse to ramming other vehicles. Ramming other vehicles is actually a strategy security personnel use to ensure the safety of their principles. However these agents are typically driving rather heavy vehicles and not "Need for Speed" Glass canons. That is to say cars that would normally be dismantled by heavy impact because the car is optimized for speed and acceleration and thus has low weight. I don't think a sportster or high performance vehicles should be able to engage in melee combat with cops and survive this unless we are talking about a few failed pit maneuvers. Those cars should give the player added advantage of speed vs decreased integrity of teh vehicle.

 

If you want to smash and roll over cops you should have to pick the correct vehicle to do it and that means sacrificing speed for mass.

 

The strategy of avoiding collission of a cop car is far more difficult then ramming into them because often times cops want you to do exactly that, ram into their cars and slowly cripple yours or even stop you.

 

What i was initially talking about was the ability of a smaller car to ram a larger vehicle out of the way and this is one fo the reasons i stopped playing Crackdown after a few minutes. I felt like i was playing a developers tool that held my hand or some sort of unfinished product. It never punished me.

 

What your describing is saint's row in that you want adamantium cars, why do we "NEED" that? why shouldn't our cars be destroyed on collision if we are driving to fast, unless it's a massive truck? The problem here is that i think you want driving fast to be the optimal strategy eliminating pursuits at 30 or 40 MPH, or possibly even slower. Yes i've been in pursuits where i have slowed down so as to maintain more control over my car and used that enhanced control and slower speed to give me time to survey environmental conditions and get away strategically. The only problem with this is if the cops are coming in behind you hard and fast they tend to ram you suicidally which is rather unrealistic to say the least.

 

I simply don't like the evocation of Need for Speed because need for speed is a game about .... Speed. Not all police pursuits should require that as a means to escape.

 

IN addition sometimes your car shouldn't be enough. Sometimes you should have to bail out and use your gun and your feet to escape. Jump a fence run through a house fire at few shots to force the police into cover then move down the fire escape onto the street again and carjack some elderly women's station wagon.

 

That's the kinda experience a pursuit should be not simply slamming the accelerator which is what i think your essentially asking me. So no it doesn't sound good and a pray GTA never becomes need for speed.

I didn't say I wanted adamantium cars, I said I wanted better police AI that uses real strategy and such. Hell, just taking the cop speech from that game and applying it to what you hear over the scanner would make the chase more exciting.

 

Seriously though, don't skim, dude. I read your whole post, you should show me that same courtesy.

 

I was making a point. In most wanted, your car was basically invulnerable and had regenerating nitro and the police still felt like formidable opponents. And that's basically what I want here, the feeling that even though you can take 200 bullets to the face and survive and can store rocket launchers in your pants, the police are still a formidable as hell opponent that gives you that big rush from evading them.

Edited September 29, 2012 by Racecarlock

[Rafe]

 

I didn't say I wanted adamantium cars, I said I wanted better police AI that uses real strategy and such. Hell, just taking the cop speech from that game and applying it to what you hear over the scanner would make the chase more exciting.

 

Seriously though, don't skim, dude. I read your whole post, you should show me that same courtesy.

 

 

 

 

I did read the whole post i just didnt' cite the entire post because it was long(there is nothign wrong with that) and it would have taken a lot of space. As a courtesy to other readers I reposted what i thought was relevant.

 

Also you spent a lot of time discussing teh mechanics of NFS pursuits and reitterated this

 

 

Of course, it's not like you don't have strategies. Once you smash through all cops or straight up out run them, you then have a cool down period.

 

What i inferred from adamantium cars and "smash through" or outrun and need for speed is you want a more arcady feeling for GTA. If your point was about then i didnt' get that inferances importance in your context.

 

 

Whatever the case lets get back on track. I would like better cop AI, and yes this would make the game harder but it would allow for a reduction in police response as individual police units could pose more of a threat.

 

I just wanna make it clear i dont' want indestructible cars, i don't want ramming to become an integral strategy, i think you should be punished for that unless your vehicle has more mass then what your ramming. I don't' think all police pursuits should necessitate the use of maximum speed as the "ideal" strategy to escape because that biases a particular TYPE of car. As long as you can agree with that then i don't see the issue. If your primary question was lets add spike strips or more verbal commands issued by the police then sure i can agree with that, however that was never in contestation. Three things where, mass and ramming, the panacea of speed, and firefights

Edited September 29, 2012 by Rafe

[Racecarlock]

I didn't say I wanted adamantium cars, I said I wanted better police AI that uses real strategy and such. Hell, just taking the cop speech from that game and applying it to what you hear over the scanner would make the chase more exciting.

 

Seriously though, don't skim, dude. I read your whole post, you should show me that same courtesy.

 

 

I did read the whole post i just didnt' cite the entire post because it was long(there is nothign wrong with that) and it would have taken a lot of space. As a courtesy to other readers I reposted what i thought was relevant.

 

Whatever the case lets get back on track. I would like better cop AI, and yes this would make the game harder but it would allow for a reduction in police response as individual police units could pose more of a threat.

 

I just wanna make it clear i dont' want indestructible cars, i don't want ramming to become an integral strategy, i think you should be punished for that unless your vehicle has more mass then what your ramming. I don't' think all police pursuits should necessitate the use of maximum speed as the "ideal" strategy to escape because that biases a particular TYPE of car. As long as you can agree with that then i don't see the issue. If your primary question was lets add spike strips or more verbal commands issued by the police then sure i can agree with that, however that was never in contestation. Three things where, mass and ramming, the panacea of speed, and firefights

I don't want invincible cars either. I just want more intelligent and communicative cops. We agree here.

[Rafe]

I don't want invincible cars either. I just want more intelligent and communicative cops. We agree here.

Why would anybody ever consider spike strips or cops that scream additional threats or orders to your unrealistic? I think these are very realistic things.

 

AI might not be enhanceable for the sake that it requires the computer to update itself more often to make the cops seem more intelligent. That might bleed off performance elsewhere though. I like it but we might have to start waiting for the Xbox 720 to take advantage of stuff like this because certain areas of liberty city could visually choke when it rained(and the streets reflected additional geometry) and you where in pursuits.

[isselman2000]

If you want a masterclass in bad realism, you need look no further than Mafia II.

[Rafe]

If you want a masterclass in bad realism, you need look no further than Mafia II.

Wasn't the essential problem there that the entire game was wake up > get in car >pick up thug >go to location> engage in criminal activity> escape > drive thug home.?

[Bertholo]

you mdfk

[GTALegacy]

 

I don't want invincible cars either. I just want more intelligent and communicative cops.

 

Again, the big factor with increasing the Police A.I. is PROCESSING POWER.

 

There is just not as much of it on consoles as there are high-end PCs, for obvious reasons.

 

This is why there are no buses on the streets of Liberty City in the console versions of IV.

 

However, a few modifications to the car group and traffic files and buses and more dense & diverse traffic are available on the PC version of GTA IV since PCs have more than enough RAM, VRAM and GPU power to render those additional elements.

 

I also agree there should be strategy in police pursuits, but unfortunately R* designed the current game (IV) to be a "flee as fast as you can" type of pursuit game due to the search area and because flooring it is a knee-jerk reaction ALL players instinctively perform by default.

 

So, if we want players to drive more strategically in chases they need to DESIGN the game to encourage this like others said. I tend to drive strategically whenever engaged in a chase. I use the environment and traffic around me to foul up the cops BEFORE I hit the pedal to the medal to get out of the search zone, but I tend to play games more strategically than most.

 

What they could really do is make true LINE OF SIGHT A.I. where if you abandon your car and go on foot into an alley way and stay in the alley for a few blocks, they actually loose sight of you and the search zone DECREASES. This is something they promised with IV, but we still got the basic system from GTA III, and SA... But again, probably due to less processing power available on consoles.

 

RE: The physics...

 

Like I said, the big reason IV's physics are so wonky is because... There are no real physics present in the game. It's all hard coded scripts and tables that SIMULATE physics instead of algorithms processing real time physics calculations. Again, this is because consoles don't have the necessary processing power to perform those calculations AND render the game at the same time. They also don't have dedicated physics processors like Nvidia cards have... At least, not yet.

 

A perfect example of how messed up the faux physics are can be seen in some of the scripted chase sequences in IV... Like when a mid-sized car you are chasing will plow straight into a SUV and hurl the SUV out of the way!

 

Not only does that break the immersion, but it is another example of how the game is designed around a false sense of reality when R* could have just used our (real) reality and tweaked it to get the effect they wanted. Basing a game around reality is called OPERATIONAL REALITY -- different from Procedural Reality.

 

Operational Reality means "If this is how something operates in the real world, then this is how it is portrayed in the game".

 

The best example of Operational Reality would be a first person shooter that replicates real world weapons platforms AS THEY OPERATE IN REAL LIFE. Weapons manufactures and aftermarket accessories vendors design their products to perform a specific function in the real world... Just like car manufactures and aftermarket vendors do the same thing... So this is how they should be portrayed in the game as far as GTA IV, goes. So, like "Rafe" and "Racecarlock" said, the vehicles in GTA should behave more or less like their real life counter-parts with regard to their physical properties e.g. speed, weight, mass, etc.

Edited September 29, 2012 by GTALegacy

[europeanbob]

I would love vastly more realistic security. Better police, but more really:

 

* more realistic airport security - sneaking airside and worrying about getting caught, not being able to go through the scanners, etc.

* more realistic bank security, money drops, more robbery options.

[isselman2000]

If you want a masterclass in bad realism, you need look no further than Mafia II.

Wasn't the essential problem there that the entire game was wake up > get in car >pick up thug >go to location> engage in criminal activity> escape > drive thug home.?

That's exactly what I meant by bad realism. We don't want a gang life simulator; we want a game.

[Rafe]

 

If you want a masterclass in bad realism, you need look no further than Mafia II.

Wasn't the essential problem there that the entire game was wake up > get in car >pick up thug >go to location> engage in criminal activity> escape > drive thug home.?

That's exactly what I meant by bad realism. We don't want a gang life simulator; we want a game.

Yeah i totally agree there. Some valid criticisms of GTA argue that there is too much drive to A pick up person X drive to B etc etc.. The mission structure has to much chauffeuring.

 

and i'm not just talking about date missions.

[Mark Pagliaro]

I'd love to have fuel in my honest opinion with adjustable sliders so we can customize how often we have to fuel up. (Slider set to 0 would equal infinite tank)

[Racecarlock]

Also you spent a lot of time discussing teh mechanics of NFS pursuits and reitterated this

 

 

Of course, it's not like you don't have strategies. Once you smash through all cops or straight up out run them, you then have a cool down period.

 

What i inferred from adamantium cars and "smash through" or outrun and need for speed is you want a more arcady feeling for GTA. If your point was about then i didnt' get that inferances importance in your context.

 

 

Whatever the case lets get back on track. I would like better cop AI, and yes this would make the game harder but it would allow for a reduction in police response as individual police units could pose more of a threat.

 

I just wanna make it clear i dont' want indestructible cars, i don't want ramming to become an integral strategy, i think you should be punished for that unless your vehicle has more mass then what your ramming. I don't' think all police pursuits should necessitate the use of maximum speed as the "ideal" strategy to escape because that biases a particular TYPE of car. As long as you can agree with that then i don't see the issue. If your primary question was lets add spike strips or more verbal commands issued by the police then sure i can agree with that, however that was never in contestation. Three things where, mass and ramming, the panacea of speed, and firefights

I don't want ramming to be a huge strategy either. I was just describing how many superpowers your car has. Also, you can take out cops with guns. Ramming doesn't necessarily have to be the only thing, and I would like it to only work according to mass and stuff like you said. However, my point there is that if the cops don't see you, you should be able to hide on foot or in a car and wait for the search to die down while maybe hearing search reports over the radio. I liked GTA IV's physics once I got used to them.

 

Although, indestructible cars and infinite mass would make awesome cheats. With both enabled you could basically push a big rig with a Porsche and the big rig wouldn't be able to slow down. They would be cool cheats.