Australia, USA and Canada

[Icarus]

Not quite. If anything, Alberta, Saskatchewan, British Columbia, and Newfoundland and Labrador (the four provinces that don't receive money from equalization payments, but rather pay into it) pay Quebec (and the remaining provinces) and they stay in knowing full well if they leave, their finances would be in ruins.

 

I know Quebec always like to play the guilt card on English Canada, but they also know if they wanted to leave, there would be some serious consequences: first, the federal government would rightly have to assign them their portion of the federal debt; second, all federal assets would have to be taken out of Quebec (i.e. military equipment, other infrastructure); third, Quebec loves social programs and without the money from equalization payments, their debt is going to increase even more (they already have a problem with that - spending more money than they have).

 

So yeah, when separatism gets brought up in Quebec, I just laugh, because I know they haven't thought of the long-term consequences.

[Shiva.]

Also, Quebec cannot afford to be independent. There aren't enough tax payers (individuals and businesses) for Quebec to

survive. Canada is now more richer than and economically powerful than America (correct me if I'm wrong) . Quebec would turn crazy if they were to be seperated.

[Jay]

(correct me if I'm wrong)

You are.

[Shiva.]

(correct me if I'm wrong)

You are.

Well, thanks for pointing out. I'd like to hear why.

[Jay]

 

(correct me if I'm wrong)

You are.

Well, thanks for pointing out. I'd like to hear why.

What is there to explain? Canada is not richer, nor more economically powerful than the US.

 

Of course you can make the argument over semantics, cite certain lists (like this or this) claiming that Canada is 'richer', but quite frankly I couldn't give two sh*ts about debating this stuff. That's why I've never posted in D&D.

[Shiva.]

(correct me if I'm wrong)

You are.

Well, thanks for pointing out. I'd like to hear why.

What is there to explain? Canada is not richer, nor more economically powerful than the US.

 

Of course you can make the argument over semantics, cite certain lists (like this or this) claiming that Canada is 'richer', but quite frankly I couldn't give two sh*ts about debating this stuff. That's why I've never posted in D&D.

No, I'm not gonna argue. Thanks for explaining.

[nightwalker83]

(correct me if I'm wrong)

You are.

Well, thanks for pointing out. I'd like to hear why.

Why do you say that?

[Alenko]

sh*t probably US is closer, they got more power and Canada is weak. Nobody f*cks with the USA. haha.

[General Scrotum]

I've checked the video again and it wasn't in the video, but a comment (the numbers were edited afterwards and it wasn't about Quebec paying Ottawa). It is about equalization though. Here's the comment:

 

"Equalization gave Quebec an average $7.6 billion: $3.9 billion from taxations and another $3.7 billion from other provinces. It's more Alberta which finances us than us financing the seaside provinces."

 

 

Anyway, since we are speaking of Quebec and liberalism/independance, here are the arguments presented in that video as for why Quebec should become a country:

 

"Instead of fighting to keep our political influence in the House of Commons and see it drop from 24% to 23%, we would be 100% in Quebec's National Assembly. We wouldn't have to fight to become less and less a minority in a Parliament led by another nation than ours. We would abolish the Senate like we abolished the Legislative Council. We would stop putting cash in the Senate and the functions of the Lieutenant-Governor. The cash we are shipping to Ottawa, we would keep it for us: for our priorities; for our economical development; for our social devolpment. We would stop financing a mental healthcare strategy that confronts ours. We already pay for ours and we are forced to pay for Ottawa's.

 

Our government promised to get our part of the $165 000 000 Ottawa used on the Canadian mental healthcare commission. They own us $40 000 000. We pay two times for the same thing, both in Canada. We pay two times for mental healthcare programs; two times for transports; two times for the Ministry of Environment; two times for the Ministry of Agriculture; two times for all the other ones. We would pay for one country instead of two. We would pay for one bureaucracy instead of two. We would put an end to overlap, we would save money, we would be better managed: efficiency gain.

 

We wouldn't send cash to the vehicle sector, to the petroleum sector in Alberta and Saskatchewan. It would stay in Quebec to develop our renewable energy sources. It would finance our industrial strategy to protect our manufacturing sector, our work, our jobs in factories, our workers instead of letting them go away. We would fight to keep our manufacturing sector. Instead of financing Butcherchill project, we would use our cash to finance our hydroeletric projects.

 

We would've respected our terms with AVEOS workers: we wouldn't have to go in court to make a promise be kept that the federal government promised to keep.

 

We would have on national police instead of paying the Royal Canadian Mounted Police.

 

We wouldn't be forced to fight to preserve our weapon registry: Quebec would have one. We wouldn't be forced to pay to preserve ours.

 

We wouldn't be forced to listen to stupidities about starting new debates about abortion or death penalty.

 

Bill C-10 trashtalks Quebec's rehabiliation system for our young which works perfectly. It allows to have one of the lowest rate of recurrence in industrialized countries. We will be forced to pay to be imposed a new system that doesn't work: all that at our cost. We will be forced to build prisons while we don't want prisons: we want more rehabilitation and reinstatment of our young.

 

No need to fight to have a French jugge in court.

 

We would respect Kyoto. We wouldn't be out of it like Stephen Harper proposed with Omnibus Bill (C-38.) Are we proud of that? Are we proud of Canada? Canada which is a delinquent environmental country: the only one to quit Kyoto. It's a shame on environmental plan, Harper's Canada. It isn't what the majority of the Quebeckers believe and want environmentally.

 

We wouldn't be forced to pay to honor the War of 1812. Do we need that in Quebec?

 

It wouldn't solve all the problems, but it would allowsus to build something that would represent us, something that would unite us all. It wouldn't be something like the Candian government: division and discord. Bill C for: dispute, discord, conflict. Conflicts and disputes are all coming from one same place: Ottawa." ~Bernard Drainville, Quebecker separatist

 

Also, I've seen some comments saying that if Quebec was to become independant, the seaside provinces would do the same and the Western ones would be 'eaten' by the United States since they wouldn't be able to protect the territory and oil. In my opinion, that is a little bit seeing too high, but who knows what can happen in today's world?

 

It seems that Quebec is in election, because of the student strike (due to the raise of scolarity fees in universities and such. Yet, I don't understand why they protest: it is and it will remain one of North America's lowests'.) In an advertisement for his political party, the current Prime Minister said that Quebec would be the first province to overcome the monetary deficit in the next term. Either it is a lie or it is the truth which means Quebec wouldn't have a problem on the economical side if they were to become independant.

 

Still, I have to agree with you on one thing: they didn't think of the long-term consequences (i.e. if there was a third world war, not involving nuclear missiles, analysts say Quebec would be a main target for its ressources: water and hydropower.) They only thought of the short-term consequences. As for the benifits though, it's both long-term and short-term benifits.

[Icarus]

Quebec has always been an interesting case for this country.

 

I want to delve right into the student protest part first. I remember reading an article my friend sent me (she's a Québécoise) that was saying that English Canada wasn't doing enough to support their cause. That pissed me off quite a bit, considering the fact that as we've already established, Quebec is a recipient of equalization payments in this country, most of which comes from the oil fields in Alberta (which, by the way, they're quick to criticize, but they have no complaints when the money comes in). Now, I did my B.Sc. and am finishing up my M.Sc. here in Alberta and I still paid about $5,000/year for tuition (near the end of my B.Sc., about $5,600/year) and I lived in the province that was supplying the bitumen, but I wasn't seeing the "lowest tuition in the country." So when Quebec was bitching about English Canada not caring, I was pretty pissed off, because they had the gall to bitch at us while much of the funding for their social programs comes off the backs of English Canadians. So yeah, if we're not sympathetic, they can put two and two together.

 

If Quebec decided to secede, they would be absolutely screwed financially. As I already mentioned, they would be cut off from equalization payments, and furthermore, the Government of Canada should rightfully assign them their portion of the federal debt, remove all federal infrastructure from Quebec, and bar them from using the Canadian dollar as their currency. In essence, they get to start from the ground up - which is only fair, as far as I'm concerned. Quebec is more like Europe than the rest of Canada, mainly through the fact that they're very big on their social programs (which, don't get me wrong, is quite admirable). However, that costs money, and Quebec has a problem of spending money when they don't have it, hence the reason they're in debt, but they don't want to cut any social programs, so if they decide to secede, I'm not entirely sure where they plan on having the money.

 

The things they're talking about with regards to Bill C-10, the War of 1812 and such, I actually agree. I think the government is taking the wrong approach with respect to crime (considering it's at a 44 year low), but that's not entirely the fault of English Canada - not all of us voted for Stephen Harper (although in Alberta, it's safe to say the majority overwhelmingly did).

 

In the end, though, Quebec benefits more from being in Canada than Canada benefits from Quebec, although they would never admit this. They'll keep touting the separatist dream, but in reality, they know it would be a fatal mistake. If Quebec separating from Canada wouldn't isolate Atlantic Canada (where I'm from), I'd almost tell them to go for it, so that they wouldn't be a financial drain on the rest of the country (amongst other things). One thing I've noticed about Quebec: if they whine long enough, the government will bend. Plus, they keep touting that because they're the only French province, they deserve special treatment and of course, the notion of distinct society, although my man Pierre Trudeau put it best: "Quebec is distinct. So is Ontario. You can't be distinct from someone without them being distinct from you."

 

I do love some things about Quebec (i.e. their adherence to secularism, Montreal Canadiens, Montreal Alouettes), but hell, they piss me off to the highest degree at times.

[KaRzY6]

Interesting talk about Quebec becoming independent. I had a little look on the web about Quebec becoming an independent country and it seems Quebec would be in debt and won't survive as a country. One question, what are these 'equalization' payments for? (That the rest of Canada pays for)

[Icarus]

An equalization payment is used to put all the provinces on the same footing (equal) in their ability to generate tax revenues. To oversimplify the hell out of it, the rich provinces basically end up giving money to the poorer provinces. At the moment, four provinces give money: Alberta, British Columbia, Saskatchewan, and Newfoundland and Labrador. The remaining six provinces will receive money from the four aforementioned provinces such that everyone is on equal footing.

 

So yeah, think of the payments essentially as a "rich helping the poor," but they're more or less forced to do so (the privilege of being part of the country, I guess).

[KaRzY6]

An equalization payment is used to put all the provinces on the same footing (equal) in their ability to generate tax revenues. To oversimplify the hell out of it, the rich provinces basically end up giving money to the poorer provinces. At the moment, four provinces give money: Alberta, British Columbia, Saskatchewan, and Newfoundland and Labrador. The remaining six provinces will receive money from the four aforementioned provinces such that everyone is on equal footing.

 

So yeah, think of the payments essentially as a "rich helping the poor," but they're more or less forced to do so (the privilege of being part of the country, I guess).

Oh, okay. So British Columbia, Alberta and Saskatchewan are 3 states in a row in the south-west. Is that area got something going that is booming the economy?

[Icarus]

Alberta has oil and lots of it (it's the Canadian equivalent of Texas... and I'm not talking about just oil), so we would probably be considered the richest province. Saskatchewan has a lot of mining going on, specifically with potash. Newfoundland and Labrador also has oil, but not on the same level as Alberta. As for British Columbia, I'm not sure what they have that gives them the status of a have province; I'll have to look into that.

[KaRzY6]

Alberta has oil and lots of it (it's the Canadian equivalent of Texas... and I'm not talking about just oil), so we would probably be considered the richest province. Saskatchewan has a lot of mining going on, specifically with potash. Newfoundland and Labrador also has oil, but not on the same level as Alberta. As for British Columbia, I'm not sure what they have that gives them the status of a have province; I'll have to look into that.

Thanks man. So this is probably the equivalant to the Australian state of Western Australia. A lot of oil and mining.

[General Scrotum]

As for British Columbia, I'm not sure what they have that gives them the status of a have province; I'll have to look into that.

British Columbia is agriculturally rich (mainly Fraser and Okanagan Valleys.) Also, resource extraction: logging and minning.

[Shiva.]

Pretty much everything, Icarus. British Columbia has a resource dominated economy, centred on the forestry industry but also with increasing importance in

mining. People are mostly employed in new jobs

in the construction and retail/service

sectors. Also, Vancouver region has become the third-largest feature film production

location in North America, after Los Angeles

and New York City.[20]

The economic history of British Columbia is

replete with tales of dramatic upswings and

downswings, and this

pattern has greatly influenced the politics, culture

and business climate of the province.

Economic activity related to mining in

particular has widely fluctuated with changes in commodity prices over time.

 

[Borras81]

I'm Welsh, I know a lot of foreigners think of Britain as England, but years ago a succession of English kings and Queens gradually subjugated Wales and Scotland and brought them under English rule, then forced us to sign the act of union creating Great Britain. Once this was done the " British " ( England ) then started colonising other countries against their will and creating the British Empire. We in Wales and Scotland are expected to sing God Save Our Illegal Queen ! This is why the Welsh men playing in team gb football at the olympics refused to sing it. I hope Wales and Scotland get independence at some point in the future, I also hope Australia and Canada do also. As for America they already did by winning the war of independence, it's funny how no English people like to talk about that ! I'm ashamed to be associated with the British empire, it's just illegal occupation dressed up as being noble because a royal family ordered it. I know the Aussies have a joke which goes " how do you know a plane load of pons has just landed in Australia ? - You can still hear whining even after the engines have been switched off ! "Australians are lucky, they at least live the other side of the world from the poms, but I have to live only 6 miles from the border of pomy land !

[sivispacem]

Many thanks for your primary school history lesson.

[General Scrotum]

Interesting talk about Quebec becoming independent. I had a little look on the web about Quebec becoming an independent country and it seems Quebec would be in debt and won't survive as a country.

I don't think Quebec would have problems only on the economical plan. If we take a look at Quebec's history, there are two or three events that could make people discuss its internal security, which one of them was based on this province's independance: the October Crisis; the Oka Crisis; September 11, 2001 Aftermath.

 

The October Crisis, October 1970, was caused by the kidnapping of James Richard Cross, the British Trade Commissioner, and Pierre Laporte, Minister of Labour and Vice-Premier of Quebec. The kidnappers: the Front de Libération du Québec (Quebec Liberation Front), a left-wing Québécois nationalist, communist and Marxist-Leninist paramilitary group, which was awarded a terrorist reputation for its ways of seeking Quebec's independance. Around the middle of the month, they announced on radio that Pierre Laporte was dead. That's when Pierre Elliot Trudeau, Canada's Prime Minister at that time, invoked the War Measures Act (only time such a thing was invoked in peace time.) That's also from where his famous sentence "Well, just watch me" comes. Funny part of it is that the KGB got an interest into that thing and managed to make Canada's Prime Minister believe the CIA had been involved with the FLQ.

 

The Oka Crisis, July 11, 1990 to September 26, 1990, was a land dispute between the Mohawk community of Kanesakate and the town of Oka, Quebec. The mayor of the town asked the Sûreté du Québec (SQ), the provincial police force. When it became apparent they couldn't countain that problem, the RCMP (Royal Canadian Mounted Police) was called in, but they failed too. On August 8, section 275 of the National Defense Act was invoked: requisition of military support in aid of the civil power. That's the second time the army had to intervene in a problem in Quebec in twenty years (noting that both times were under the same Premier, Robert Bourasa.)

 

September 11, 2001: everyone remembers the fall of the twin towers and the two other planes' assault. Well, even if it happened in United States, people feared things like these could happen in Quebec: especially at the hydroelectric dams in the northern parts of Quebec province. Note that at the time, there were no guards (maybe one if lucky?) to cover them nor were there any locks on the door to enter them. So, a quick sabotage or a blowing of one of these would have caused flooding and it might have taken a long time before they (Quebec's government) knew about what happened.

 

My point is that security is kind of bad.

 

 

After that, there were the two referandums for Quebec's independance: 1980 and 1995's referendums. On May 20, 1980: 1 485 851 voters voted yes (40.44%) against 2 187 991 who voted no (59.56%.) On June 12, 1995: 2 308 360 electors voted yes against 2 362 648 who voted no. The funny part about the second one is that Canada's Prime Minister "paid" the bus ticket to Quebec so that non-Quebeckers could influence them with messages such as: "We love you!" or "We love Quebec; we need you!"

[KaRzY6]

 

I'm Welsh, I know a lot of foreigners think of Britain as England, but years ago a succession of English kings and Queens gradually subjugated Wales and Scotland and brought them under English rule, then forced us to sign the act of union creating Great Britain. Once this was done the " British " ( England ) then started colonising other countries against their will and creating the British Empire. We in Wales and Scotland are expected to sing God Save Our Illegal Queen ! This is why the Welsh men playing in team gb  football at the olympics refused to sing it. I hope Wales and Scotland get independence at some point in the future, I also hope Australia and Canada do also. As for America they already did by winning the war of independence, it's funny how no English people like to talk about that ! I'm ashamed to be associated with the British empire, it's just illegal occupation dressed up as being noble because a royal family ordered it. I know the Aussies have a joke which goes " how do you know a plane load of pons has just landed in Australia  ? - You can still hear whining even after the engines have been switched off ! "Australians are lucky, they at least live the other side of the world from the poms, but I have to live only 6 miles from the border of pomy land !

You got to be joking, right? Britain is all of the British Isles(besides Ireland). If you lived 200 or so years ago then I could understand your want for independence, but this is now in 2012. Whales, Scotland, Northern Ireland and England get on fine now, as one country. When I think of Britain, I think of the whole island of Great Britain, Northern Ireland and the surrounding islands. When I think of England (also Scotland, Whales, Northern Ireland and the Isle of Mann), I think of it as more of a state/territory of the UK. Like Victoria, or New South Whales, here in Australia. As for Canada and Australia, we have independence from Britain. We are seprate, self-running countries. We are apart of Commonwealth, which League of Nations that all(besides two, if I'm correct) were once in the British Empire. In a way you could say we are ruled by Britain still (because of the Monarchy), but the we are independent countries.

 

@Secronom President

So, your saying that Quebec could survive as a country economically?