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BRITLAND

Death Penalty

Recommended Posts

lil weasel
[...] other less-costly methods of preventing reoffending that actually allow mistakes to be reversed can do the role you are proposing the death penalty does.

Very Interesting... Like what? Can you show an example?

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General Goose

I refer you to my Norway example in my previous post.

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lil weasel

Ah, Yes: The prison island of Bastøy in Norway. it sounds like a very nice place to vacation, while planning the next crime and improving skills.

But, I am proposing a total reduction of Capital Crime storage fees.

Execution of Convicted Capital Criminals isn’t an attempt to rehabilitate, retrain, or warm store them forever. I don’t expect to prevent Capital Crime by example. I do expect the removal of a ‘socially defective’ element from Society. Not revenge, just a removal, a final solution to a current problem.

 

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General Goose

I hate to invoke Godwin's Law here, but your rhetoric is entering into Hitler territory now. "Removal"? "Socially defective"? "Final solution"?

 

Also:

 

it sounds like a very nice place to vacation, while planning the next crime and improving skills.

 

Reoffending rate of 18%. All I need to say to squash that moronic insinuation.

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El Zilcho

lil weasel, I get the impression you'd have everyone shot for everything if you could.

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lil weasel

Speaking of 30 years ago at a lecture, the instructor spoke of sending kids to prison. Part of the lecture was that confining criminals of various backgrounds in a general population was tantamount to giving them a free education on crime. They would exchange experiences and ‘train’ each other in their criminal activities so as to improve their skills when they resumed the life of crime on release. I doubt very much has changed.

A criminal mind doesn't expect to be nabbed.

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General Goose

I am aware of that idea, and it is often true. Yet that speaks more about the current weaknesses of the prison systems in many countries (an exception being Bastoy Prison) than it does for the need for capital punishment.

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Dingdongs

 

The Appeal isn't to find 'new' evidence, it is to find Fault with the trial procedure, especially the actions/or failure of action by the trial Judge and Prosecutor.

 

If it reaches the Supreme Court then yes, that is correct. Otherwise, at other appeals, new evidence can be presented.

 

Weasel, your idea is unfortunately not acceptable. You can't run a system where there are no appeals. It can't just be one trial and then boom death in a month.

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lil weasel

Did I not say two weeks to a month to appeal (find fault with the trial.)

Yes, it is ever so much better to let the tax payers continue to warm storage criminals of Capital Crime, but there should be an end to it in a reasonable period of time.

It's not like we would be dragging the guilty person to the gallows right the minute the gavel drops.

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Robinski
I do expect the removal of a ‘socially defective’ element from Society. Not revenge, just a removal, a final solution to a current problem.

That is literally the rhetoric behind the WWII concentration camps. Not even Godwin-ing this, it's literally the same.

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MIKON8ERISBACK

I think the death penalty (lethal injection only) should be introduced for those convicted of mass murder, acts of terrorism, or the murder of a person under the age of 18.

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.2D

Personally, I'm for it. I think that if there's sufficient evidence against someone, and the crime is heinous enough, then I think that they should be held for up to say.. 2 years before being executed. I just feel that there are certain people out there that don't deserve to be kept alive. And despite the statistics, I think that crime would drop, even if only slightly, if the death penalty was re-introduced. Obviously, there are cases where someone will be overwhelmed by emotions and act without thinking, but I think that this should be taken into account. But if someone is found to clearly have acted consciously then the death penalty should be considered.

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OchyGTA
Personally, I'm for it. I think that if there's sufficient evidence against someone, and the crime is heinous enough, then I think that they should be held for up to say.. 2 years before being executed. I just feel that there are certain people out there that don't deserve to be kept alive. And despite the statistics, I think that crime would drop, even if only slightly, if the death penalty was re-introduced. Obviously, there are cases where someone will be overwhelmed by emotions and act without thinking, but I think that this should be taken into account. But if someone is found to clearly have acted consciously then the death penalty should be considered.

But statistics show the death penalty has no effect on violent crimes. Surely, if there is no evidence to support it's implementation then it should not be implemented. What's more, I hold the opinion that it's more of a punishment to spend your life incarcerated than to be given a way out by a "painless" death.

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lil weasel
But statistics show the death penalty has no effect on violent crimes. [...] What's more, I hold the opinion that it's more of a punishment to spend your life incarcerated than to be given a way out by a "painless" death.

Not much of an argument. After all, this is to end the life of the 'Guilty' person. Criminals aren't bothered by laws or punishment because (s)he doesn't expect to be caught. Second, We want to end the useless expense ot keeping them. The prisons don't punish the criminal with free food and board. They punish the taxpayers.

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Dingdongs
But statistics show the death penalty has no effect on violent crimes. [...] What's more, I hold the opinion that it's more of a punishment to spend your life incarcerated than to be given a way out by a "painless" death.

Not much of an argument. After all, this is to end the life of the 'Guilty' person. Criminals aren't bothered by laws or punishment because (s)he doesn't expect to be caught. Second, We want to end the useless expense ot keeping them. The prisons don't punish the criminal with free food and board. They punish the taxpayers.

But what you're advocating is essentially a system of kangaroo courts that just declare you dead and you go off to the chamber in two weeks. Where the f*ck is the due process?

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Adept

I understand that there are many practical measures to sort out with the legal, financial, and emotional/opinion when it comes to the death penalty and many have brought them up already and done so quite well. Advocating the eye-for-an-eye approach to punishment while at the same time telling everyone that they should not kill has always seemed to me as blatantly hypocritical. A do as I say not as I do form of authority doesn't seem like a very legitimate or effective way to conduct governance or leadership. I think Gandhi said it best, "An eye-for-an-eye leaves the whole world blind". Elegant.

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Tyler
Second, We want to end the useless expense ot keeping them.

1) it's not useless, they are citizens of our country and need rehabilitation.

 

2) the expense is greater if you are putting them on death row. If you somehow kill them directly after the trial, due process and ethical treatment of our civilians goes out the window. Aren't you one of those civil liberty types, lil weasel?

 

 

The prisons don't punish the criminal with free food and board.

 

No, they punish the criminals by treating them inhumanly, glorifying prison rape, often times beating prisoners with physical abuse and in a lot of cases psychologically abusing the criminals. But all that's okay, it's the fact that Americans have to pay for Americans that annoys you. Not the lack of rehabilitation or the glorification of antagonistic prison mentalities.

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lil weasel

I don't see it.

You will treat the prisoner (innocent maybe) with truly cruel conditions and say, "Yeah, we saved a life!"

Exposing them to STDs (a truly horrible death sentence.)

More expense for health care.

You will pay unnecessary taxes to support this cruel caging.

You put them in a Penitentiary (do you know what that means?)

You pay through the nose post trial, post judicial review, while their Lawyers make money in the Review process for year after year.

Now, Let’s go over some things:

• A person is arrested,

• the cops investigate,

• the District Attorney reviews the evidence,

• an arraignment hearing is held,

• The ‘suspect’ is bound over, Bailed maybe,

• Depositions are taken,

• A Pretrial Hearing is held,

• Motions are heard,

• Evidence is gathered,

• The Trial is held,

• The Judge decides what evidence/testimony will be allowed.

• The Jury hears/sees the evidence,

• The Jury deliberates on that evidence and testimony,

• The Jury comes to a decision,

• The Judge holds another hearing for the Pre-Sentence.

• The Judge holds the hearing for the Sentence.

• The Defendant’s Lawyers have made notes on what they believe were Reversible Errors.

• The Defendant’s Lawyers request review.

• A higher court reviews the trial and makes a judgment to uphold the Trial Judge.

• The Defendant’s Lawyers request review.

• The next higher court reviews the trial and makes a judgment to uphold the Trial Judge.

• The Defendant’s Lawyers request review.

• The next higher court reviews the trial and makes a judgment to uphold the Trial Judge.

• The Governor Is requested to intervene.

• The Defendant’s Lawyers request another review.

• The next higher court reviews the trial and makes a judgment to uphold the Trial Judge.

• Maybe the President is requested to intervene.

• The Defendant’s Lawyers request another review.

And that isn't enough for an Execution?

And, you feel that it isn’t enough of a burden on the Tax Payers?

Because the Convicted (by his/her Peers) might still be innocent?

Why not say that we should keep them alive because the Medical Profession might find a pill that will cure the sickness that makes a person a Capital Criminal?

 

We used to commend the Soul of the Criminal to his God. Now, it’s to the mercy of the fellow Prisoners and Guards.

We don’t even consign them to Hard Labour, because the ‘System’ corrupted and used them as Slaves. (Reference U.S. Chain Gangs.)

 

And, you think a simple Execution is too good for them, and best for the Tax payers.

How truly cruel you are!

Edited by lil weasel

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sivispacem

 

I don't see it.

I didn't think you would.

 

 

You will treat the prisoner (innocent maybe) with truly cruel conditions and say, "Yeah, we saved a life!"

If you think prison is cruel and execution is not, I worry about your morality. Also. it has little to do with "saving a life".

 

 

Exposing them to STDs (a truly horrible death sentence.)

A much greater problem in the US' overcrowded, underfunded, gang-riddled, barbaric, practically-third-world prison system than it is in most other nations.

 

 

More expense for health care.

Less overall expense, though.

 

 

You will pay unnecessary taxes to support this cruel caging.

Less than you'd pay to have them executed.

 

 

You pay through the nose post trial, post judicial review, while their Lawyers make money in the Review process for year after year.

Less than in the case of executions.

 

I really don't see how you can contractict statistical facts others have posted and maintain any integrity.

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stroud458

Why would anyone think that a person who has killed another person has the right to live? Surely if you have commited me allowed to spend the rest of your murder, you should not be allowed to spend the rest of your days in prison, in relative comfort. You should be given the death sentence, wouldn't that make the family of the victim reasured knowing that the murderer no longer has the privilege of living?

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General Goose
Why would anyone think that a person who has killed another person has the right to live? Surely if you have commited me allowed to spend the rest of your murder, you should not be allowed to spend the rest of your days in prison, in relative comfort. You should be given the death sentence, wouldn't that make the family of the victim reasured knowing that the murderer no longer has the privilege of living?

It's about what is best for the justice system as a whole, not about what is "deserved" for the criminal or what MIGHT make some families feel better.

 

Also, lil weasel, accidents happen. Miscarriages of justice ALWAYS happen, no matter how many safeguards. Just open the "In the Back" section of Private Eye, or look at the "Justice on Trial" section of the Guardian website. I am sure there are US equivalents too.

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DEALUX

 

Why would anyone think that a person who has killed another person has the right to live?

 

You should be given the death sentence, wouldn't that make the family of the victim reasured knowing that the murderer no longer has the privilege of living?

Because everybody has the right to live.

 

So what? Just because of that it is alright to kill the murderer? Does that resurrect the dead people? By your logic, if a guy cuts off one of my arms I should be allowed to cut off one of his arms.

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lil weasel

People keep on about, "It costs more to Execute a Convicted Criminal."

WHY?

Can anyone get a breakdown of the 'costs' to execute a Convicted Criminal?

• The Last Meal?

• The Attending Physician?

• The Special (Death Watch) Guards?

• The Attending Executioner?

• The Drugs?

• The dedicated telephone line to the Governors Office?

• The Mortuary Attendants?

• Transportation of the Witness Party?

 

How does it add up?

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OchyGTA

I was speaking to a friend about this and a lot of companies have stopped supplying prisons with the drugs necessary for the lethal injection as they don't wish to be associated with the death penalty. I believe he also said that the price of said drugs is quite high as a result of this.

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Dingdongs
People keep on about, "It costs more to Execute a Convicted Criminal."

WHY?

Can anyone get a breakdown of the 'costs' to execute a Convicted Criminal?

• The Last Meal?

• The Attending Physician?

• The Special (Death Watch) Guards?

• The Attending Executioner?

• The Drugs?

• The dedicated telephone line to the Governors Office?

• The Mortuary Attendants?

• Transportation of the Witness Party?

 

How does it add up?

Links have been posted many times in this thread... it's indisputable.

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stroud458
Why would anyone think that a person who has killed another person has the right to live?

 

You should be given the death sentence, wouldn't that make the family of the victim reasured knowing that the murderer no longer has the privilege of living?

Because everybody has the right to live.

The murderer took away the victims right to live, by killing them. So shouldn't they get what they have given?

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sivispacem
The murderer took away the victims right to live, by killing them. So shouldn't they get what they have given?

In a word, no. Retributive justice is an archaic, brutal and absurd concept, which acknowledges neither human fallibility nor contributing factors. If you feel happy executing the mentally ill and those who kill their abusive partners for doing something at least partially beyond their control, then I think I speak for everyone when I say I never want to see you in a political position of power.

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Robinski
Why would anyone think that a person who has killed another person has the right to live?

 

You should be given the death sentence, wouldn't that make the family of the victim reasured knowing that the murderer no longer has the privilege of living?

Because everybody has the right to live.

The murderer took away the victims right to live, by killing them. So shouldn't they get what they have given?

That depends, are we no better than the sort of people who murder others?

 

I'd like to think we are.

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Vercetti27

what does killing someone achieve anyway? the only kind of killing that should be legal is euthansia, why do sick, twisted serial killers need to be killed exactly? are we not better than them?

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stroud458
what does killing someone achieve anyway? the only kind of killing that should be legal is euthansia, why do sick, twisted serial killers need to be killed exactly? are we not better than them?

Very true, we would in turn become the murderers. But look at it this way, if there was a death penalty, wouldn't that be a great incentive for murderers not to murder?

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