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The evolution of GTA.


Mainland Marauder

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Mainland Marauder

Some posts I read here make me wonder what would happen if Rockstar and its predecessors had some rigid rule about not mixing established game genres in its games, like GTA.

 

Well, I'm thinking - we wouldn't have GTA at all, for one.

 

GTA and its play-alikes get referred to as a "sandbox" game. But what's all in it? Let's break down what I consider three "core" aspects of GTA, and what they came from.

 

•For one, the "sandbox" element was just taking a regular game world and making it much bigger, and removing somewhat the linear progression through it. It was basically an expansion of a maze game in the 2D games. And in 3D, it expanded upon the kind of environment that games like Tomb Raider brought us about 15 years ago. And that was essentially a 3D platformer. So it essentially derives its roots from good ol' Super Mario. So does a fair portion of GTA's gameplay. You're jumping and running a lot, aren't you?

 

•Except, ooh, you're shooting guns. It's a shooter too! Platformers and shooters co-existed for a long time. Remember Contra? Hell, even Mario threw fireballs. And so GTA is part shooter. First person sometimes, also. You went into a FPS mode firing the assault rifles in GTA3 and Vice. You still do with the rocket launchers. You still do in certain missions.

Not everyone will understand this, but - before Doom and Wolfenstein and Quake in the 90s, what gamers might have reckoned as a "FPS" was an arcade-style light gun game. Like Lethal Enforcers or Operation Wolf. Those missions where you shoot and someone else drives play kinda like those games, except you're aiming the cursor with the controller. You did that on the home ports of those old games if you didn't have a light gun, for that matter. I would prefer a FP not be the standard operating procedure in GTA too, but it's not like it's never been a part of it. It's a part of it when it should be, just like every other genre element is part of GTA when it needs to be.

 

•What's that other thing about GTA? Cars. OK. So we have cars and shooting and running. Did the driving game turn into a shooter or did the shooter turn into a 3D platformer or what? The street races are straight classic racing video game, really. And then, one time they came out with a GTA where you could fly planes. Planes! "What, are we turning into Microsoft Flight Simulator?" (Said no one ever.) That's because it was awesome and now people are angry it wasn't in IV. You can drive a tank too! What is this, a war game? Well, it's certainly combat. So what if more combat elements are thrown in? Weapon customization. Stealth. That doesn't mean it's "turning into" something else. It's already been touched on, in San Andreas. In Bully, which is basically GTA with a kid protagonist who can't drive yet, Jimmy fought bullies but hid in lockers just like a regular Solid Snake. So many of the ideas floated around are not as new as people take them to be. Back to GTA itself, SA expanded the hand-to-hand combo system. I think there could be more emphasis on the street fighting element without any need to go "OMG THEY TURNED IT INTO STREET FIGHTER!" If you yelled "YOGA FLAME!" as you torched The Truth's weed farm, it didn't turn into Street Fighter either.

 

GTA was a moderately popular top-down chase game, essentially, not entirely unlike Pac-Man, and R*/DMA "turned it into" why we're all here. And if they're going to keep releasing GTA games, and keep it where Rockstar can build hype and anticipation for months and even years simply by acknowledging they're going to release another game one day and nothing else, then it's going to have to evolve.

 

One day the pedestrians might all have names and personalities and mannerisms. Did that mean the game became The Sims? Of course not. Or did it "become the Sims" as soon as you took CJ on dates with Denise in the Grove?

 

But don't let me make your mind up for you. Discuss, but when you do, if you're coming in with a "GTA should not be X" then first consider what exactly GTA is and has been, and then explain why something cannot or should not ever be part of the series.

 

EDIT: And a special note here, just to update this OP for people seeing this the first time:

 

 

 

(deffpony @ Wednesday, Jul 18 2012, 21:54)

If I am not mistaken this topic is to envoke discussion in regards to the genres that GTA can be categorized as and how taking features from different genres is good or bad.

 

I have to say it's kind of evolved. Maybe think of it as less of a "topic" but a theme. What makes the series what it is and specifically, how it shapes what our vision of V should be. I thought this would be a nice little curveball in the repertoire we have in this section, which by far is the busiest around these days.

Edited by Mainland Marauder

"You tell me exactly what you want, and I'll explain to you very carefully why it cannot be."

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I think what is playing is the fact that all GTA's in the past have been succesful.

So for the creators of the new GTA, i think they are very very carefully in changing the GTA recepy.

 

"What if we add fuel, hunger, sleep to the game? Is this a good addition to the game or not?"

 

"Should we do zombies? No, GTA is not a zombie game."

 

"Should we do first person? No, GTA has never been first person."

 

And so are the GTA fans over here.

Someone suggests better dating or decorating the safe house. Someone else says: GTA is not the sims.

 

Taking things from another video game is inevitable, kind of everything has been done already.

 

What new features to implement? Difficult decisions for R*.

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Mainland Marauder
in changing the GTA recepy.

And my key question here is: What is that?

 

Before you can change something, you have to define what it is.

"You tell me exactly what you want, and I'll explain to you very carefully why it cannot be."

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in changing the GTA recepy.

And my key question here is: What is that?

 

Before you can change something, you have to define what it is.

Well.. We all here have 100+ hours of experience playing the series. So we can safely call ourselves experts.

 

If one wants to define what the 'GTA recepy' is, one should analyse which aspects were in all the GTA's.

 

You started it off already.

 

1. Hijackable cars.

2. Controlling 1 person, one foot or in a vehicle.

3. An open map, giving the player freedom of where to go.

4. If you break the law, cops will show up trying to bust you.

5. You have health, you can die.

6. There are weapons you can acquire.

7. There are pedestrians with which you can interact with (shoot, talk, drive over)

8. You can save the game.

9. There are missions which you can play.

 

Those things are in each GTA (if i am correct)

 

 

Now one could call those 9 points the 'GTA recepy'.

Those things probably wont be changed. Those will probably stay.

 

So its not about how to change these points, but how to dress these points.

 

F.e. the cops. From real simple questions to bigger questions. Like should there be female cops. Or should there be an army at 6 stars or just FIB?

 

 

 

 

 

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Dr. Zoidberg

Btw, its recipe not recepy

 

Adding more elements to the game is always great, as long as it doesnt hinder the gameplay.

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runkkari203

yeah would be cool to see some medieval knights

You're incorrigible. Spamming, sh*tty attitude around the forums and your posts are of extremely poor quality.

 

Yeah, pretty much.

 

BANHAMMER
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I suppose at it's bare core GTA is about the crime, at least that's the way I look at it. I remember when I first played GTA 2, which was the first GTA game I played. I wasn't thinking "oh this is a sandbox game" or "this is an open world game" I was honestly just loving the fact I could tear up a city and kill people and steal cars. In terms of what "genre" it is, I agree it is very hard to nail down an effective label. If you had to pick one word to sum up GTA, and although it doesn't necessarily do the games justice, I'd say the one defining word would be "crime" because for me that is what it's all about.

 

It is a broad definition, and one which would cover other games as well. But I can't really think of a more appropriate word which would sum up the series better. To carry on the recipe analogy, I guess you'd say crime is the main ingredient. The recipe has changed over the years, with different ingredients and combinations, but the crime element is the main appealing ingredient.

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Good post I've always thought of GTA as a parody of gaming aswell as a parody of western culture. The sandbox and having a structure based on missions means there's almost endless possibilities to borrow ideas from different game genres, At this point they've referenced so many games we've had Mario and his power ups in the form of drugs, Donkey Kong barrel throwing in a SA mission hell I think they even borrowed from wheres wally/waldo in one particular mission in IV if I remember correctly. Here's hoping for new innovative game genres in the future so GTA can incorporate them into gameplay biggrin.gif.

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I remember playing games as a kid, I'd always dreamed of a 3D world, where you could just drive around if you wanted to.

When you could do anything, break laws or obey them? Just have the freedom.

No more structured game play, sort of like a life sim?

 

Well, the first time I played GTA 3, I like WOW!! This is what I've been looking for and waiting for!! This ROCKS!

 

So to be, the GTA Recipe is freedom. For me, they started it with GTA 3.

I don't like platformers. Mario was ok, fun when i was a kid.

 

GTA is an open world game, its fun and lets you do almost anything. It's a world that makes you believe that its a world.

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theworldfamous

That's an interesting analysis.. it makes sense but I don't think Rockstar sees it as mixing game-genres. I think part of the success is due to their approaching 'open world' as a genre unto it self, going all the way back to David Jones. Since you've been around since 2005 at least you probably remember that little Driver-GTA rivalry. Why did Driver suck compared to GTA? Because they did it like you say: mix genres. Theirs was a driving-game trying to turn shooter. It didn't work. The driving was good, a hell of lot better than GTA's, but the rest sucked in comparison. In GTA, you could say, none of the parts were technically outstanding, each of them were done better by other games. Targeting was frustrating, the driving model unpredictable, the AI rudimentary and prone to glitches, the rendering dated, the missions basic. But all put together it just meshed.

 

They've repeatedly said as much that it's their philosophy to keep all the parts equal. That's why IV disappointed so many people because they expected Rockstar to just keep adding and refining more features, but instead they redesigned the core game from scratch. The driving was more realistic, so the shooting had to be beefier, the character models where better so they needed more personality.

 

So while you're right, open world games are essentially just an expansion and mix of existing genres. The core design principle behind GTA seems to me to be to discard all of that history and baggage and truly think about it from the ground up as an open world.

 

From the last press release:

"We are sorry that it sometimes seems to take a long time, but the massive amount of work it takes to imagine, design, build, and populate a digital world is simply staggering, and we are constantly striving to make sure each game surpasses the last one."

 

There you have it. They imagine a digital world a build a game around it. Most other games imagine a game build a world around it.

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Fun and thought provoking.

 

Not idiotic and crass (looking at you Saints Row).

I like I like.

 

Interesting thread too btw.

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GourangaMaster

Im in the same thinking as GTA_stu from when 1st played GTA in its pc topdown days it was the beautifull chaos of just running amok. In the wise words of the legendary superhans "The secret ingredient is crime"..

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Nah Tso Gud

I've sortve been pondering things along these lines lately. Everytime someone on here mentions a feature that would be a reasonable addition there is always someone else to quickly and aggressively snap back "this is GTA... Not 'xxxx"

 

Rockstar has stated that this game will be a "bold new direction".. so I wonder which "this is GTA, not xxx" they will be upsetting/disproving with this "bold new direction." (if it isn't all marketing fluff)

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Mainland Marauder
That's an interesting analysis.. it makes sense but I don't think Rockstar sees it as mixing game-genres.

Good, because I don't either. But not everyone looks at it this way.

 

 

GTA is an open world game, its fun and lets you do almost anything. It's a world that makes you believe that its a world.

 

As such, anything in the world could exist in the GTA world.

 

Anyway, I just wanted people to think about this some and it got a better response than I was expecting, tbh. The point remains, GTA must evolve to stay relevant. Plenty of long-running game series that did not do that, people became tired of. This to me is what separates Rockstar from most other game makers.

"You tell me exactly what you want, and I'll explain to you very carefully why it cannot be."

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Racecarlock

I just want to be able to hold ten weapons in my pocket, get away with speeding and vehicle to vehicle hit and run, free roam the map without having to go back to my house or a burger shot every hour to sleep or eat virtual food.

 

Fuel, hunger, and sleep. The perfect trifecta of unneeded pointless busywork. Especially pointless in a GTA game where I want to explore and rampage, not eat and wait for my gas tank to fill up. I got a plane to fly, bitch, I don't want to have to eat or die.

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theworldfamous
Anyway, I just wanted people to think about this some and it got a better response than I was expecting, tbh. The point remains, GTA must evolve to stay relevant. Plenty of long-running game series that did not do that, people became tired of. This to me is what separates Rockstar from most other game makers.

Totally agree. But IV broke with tradition pretty radically in some places, pissed a lot of people off anyways. And they've already called V a 'complete reinvention' and 'bold new direction' so I think we're good in that department.

 

Leaves the question, in what area will it evolve most? It's not gonna be the graphics but I don't think it's just in size either.

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theworldfamous
I just want to be able to hold ten weapons in my pocket, get away with speeding and vehicle to vehicle hit and run, free roam the map without having to go back to my house or a burger shot every hour to sleep or eat virtual food.

 

Fuel, hunger, and sleep. The perfect trifecta of unneeded pointless busywork. Especially pointless in a GTA game where I want to explore and rampage, not eat and wait for my gas tank to fill up. I got a plane to fly, bitch, I don't want to have to eat or die.

Exactly! Everything Always Optional

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It set it's own genre, it's called the "Grand Theft Auto " genre that is why people call every crime-sandbox game a GTA clone

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I enjoy GTA for what it is whatever it is. Same as all the other games I enjoy to play. icon14.gif

fV9tG4b.gif

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Its Grand Theft Auto, you can do what ever you want in this game. sneaky2.gif

 

 

user posted image
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Paper Mario

I thought that threads that weren't about GTA V were forbidden in here? This is kinda about GTA overall. Naughty mod. wink.gif

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Mainland Marauder

 

I just want to be able to hold ten weapons in my pocket, get away with speeding and vehicle to vehicle hit and run, free roam the map without having to go back to my house or a burger shot every hour to sleep or eat virtual food.

 

Fuel, hunger, and sleep. The perfect trifecta of unneeded pointless busywork. Especially pointless in a GTA game where I want to explore and rampage, not eat and wait for my gas tank to fill up. I got a plane to fly, bitch, I don't want to have to eat or die.

Good take and all, but I just don't buy it myself. Specifically, I don't buy that any of it is or was that imposing on the gameplay.

 

"Sleep" is easily integrated with the save function. Everyone saves. In SA this also had the effect of canceling a "hungry" effect, or canceling a gang war. You had a lot of stuff on the side you could either do or don't. You could shoot hoops in Sweet's driveway, so did it become a sports game? Of course not.

 

The eating thing was just fine, really, and some of CJ's best dialogue was locked essentially until you porked him up on Cluckin' Bell and the like. Get him fat, walk by that chubby Latina hooker you see strolling around his hood. Respond negatively. This stuff almost makes the game worth another playthrough.

 

Like I'd mentioned, that plane you're flying wasn't part of GTA at one point. It is now. And there will be other things that get incorporated into it. And Rockstar has a way of doing this without interfering much with the core gameplay, unless you're one of these sticklers for the tried and true formula.

 

GTA's "tried and true formula" is to expand and evolve and continue doing so. When that stops, so does GTA. Some people just want lots of driving and shooting around a generic mob film storyline. This is the kind of mindset that allows game makers to keep putting out the same old thing year after year. The kind of mindset that has modern rock radio full of Nickelback soundalikes. The kind of mindset that keeps politicians spouting the same meaningless talking points every election year. No matter what it is, putting something fresh out there takes a lot of effort and resources and there's no reason to if people are happy paying over and over again for the same old.

 

 

I thought that threads that weren't about GTA V were forbidden in here? This is kinda about GTA overall. Naughty mod. 

 

I totally read the joke here but I'd like to stress this is very much about GTA V, because I want it to be better than what came before it. If it's not, why would I want to buy it? I'm too broke to buy the same game over and over again. You won't see me in line for the latest Madden or FIFA until I've established it's actually better than before. I can build my own new players. With GTA, it's always better than before, and GTA V will be better than before with things we haven't seen yet. That's what makes me want it.

 

Oh, and when I post and not handling "mod" things, I might as well just be another member here, and if my opinion is any more valid than anyone else's it's because I put it out there and backed it up, not because of some privileged status on the forum. That's not how I operate.

"You tell me exactly what you want, and I'll explain to you very carefully why it cannot be."

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Paper Mario
I just want to be able to hold ten weapons in my pocket, get away with speeding and vehicle to vehicle hit and run, free roam the map without having to go back to my house or a burger shot every hour to sleep or eat virtual food.

 

Fuel, hunger, and sleep. The perfect trifecta of unneeded pointless busywork. Especially pointless in a GTA game where I want to explore and rampage, not eat and wait for my gas tank to fill up. I got a plane to fly, bitch, I don't want to have to eat or die.

Good take and all, but I just don't buy it myself. Specifically, I don't buy that any of it is or was that imposing on the gameplay.

 

"Sleep" is easily integrated with the save function. Everyone saves. In SA this also had the effect of canceling a "hungry" effect, or canceling a gang war. You had a lot of stuff on the side you could either do or don't. You could shoot hoops in Sweet's driveway, so did it become a sports game? Of course not.

 

The eating thing was just fine, really, and some of CJ's best dialogue was locked essentially until you porked him up on Cluckin' Bell and the like. Get him fat, walk by that chubby Latina hooker you see strolling around his hood. Respond negatively. This stuff almost makes the game worth another playthrough.

 

Like I'd mentioned, that plane you're flying wasn't part of GTA at one point. It is now. And there will be other things that get incorporated into it. And Rockstar has a way of doing this without interfering much with the core gameplay, unless you're one of these sticklers for the tried and true formula.

 

GTA's "tried and true formula" is to expand and evolve and continue doing so. When that stops, so does GTA. Some people just want lots of driving and shooting around a generic mob film storyline. This is the kind of mindset that allows game makers to keep putting out the same old thing year after year. The kind of mindset that has modern rock radio full of Nickelback soundalikes. The kind of mindset that keeps politicians spouting the same meaningless talking points every election year. No matter what it is, putting something fresh out there takes a lot of effort and resources and there's no reason to if people are happy paying over and over again for the same old.

 

 

I thought that threads that weren't about GTA V were forbidden in here? This is kinda about GTA overall. Naughty mod. 

 

I totally read the joke here but I'd like to stress this is very much about GTA V, because I want it to be better than what came before it. If it's not, why would I want to buy it? I'm too broke to buy the same game over and over again. You won't see me in line for the latest Madden or FIFA until I've established it's actually better than before. I can build my own new players. With GTA, it's always better than before, and GTA V will be better than before with things we haven't seen yet. That's what makes me want it.

 

Oh, and when I post and not handling "mod" things, I might as well just be another member here, and if my opinion is any more valid than anyone else's it's because I put it out there and backed it up, not because of some privileged status on the forum. That's not how I operate.

Oh well. Who cares right? tounge.gif

 

But GTA has been improving all the time.

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Honest Bill

I think one guy already touched on it, but i'd say it is the 'freedom' which makes the primary GTA ingredient. Of course it's highly subjective, but that's what made the first GTA game special for me. I remember playing it all night when i first got it, and i've done the same with all of them since.

 

It was that i could go wherever i wanted and do whatever i pleased instead of having to follow the missions. At one point i just decided i was more interested in finding expensive cars and selling them them at the docks at the crane.

 

The tone of the games was very new too. It was beyond anything released before it, there was even a mission where you drove a criminal around while he raped a woman in the back seat (I'm pretty sure that was the first one, but it could have been GTA2)

 

The exaggerated sense of dystopia and the degredation of society also made the original games what they were. They have all retained, at least an element of this, although it did go through a distinct thematic change i'd say beginning with Vice City. GTA3, i feel still had a very similar tone to the first two, although they did create a more story driven experience to go with the freedom.

 

Also, with regards to the tone, there was something very British about the first 3 games, it would probably be imperceptible to anyone else, but any other brits will know exactly what i'm talking about. From the radio stations, to the dialogue and stupid jokes, they were all flavoured with a very British and also very current sense of humour at the time ( the subsequent games have still got some British humour, but i feel it has a more American flavour now). I was only about 18 at the time and i could tell that this game was made by people of my generation, as opposed to being 'something for the youngsters'

 

Also, let us not forget the controversy surrounding it since the first one in the series.. Talk of a game being banned, will always make everyone want it more.. DMA clearly understood that.

 

You're right about the evolution of the series though, I always dreamed of a game which would let you do anything you wanted, and GTA always comes closest to realising that. That's why i anticipate every release, because i want to be able to become immersed in another world, and do whatever my imagination can come up with, the more ways in which i can manifest my imagination the happier i am with a game.

 

That's why i always welcome new features if they are done in an appropriate and interesting way. I say why not combine the best bits of all genres and leave everything superfluous behind?

 

All of the games have their 'pointless' features, at least in my eyes. But every game also has new things you can do, and a new level of immersion. If they can understand which ones were valuable and which ones were 'pointless' and understand why, then i think GTAV will be a great game. And the more elements from other games, implemented well, are what i'd like to see.

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Mainland Marauder

If you aim to simulate the world, and the world has superfluous, pointless things, then a proper simulation of the world is going to have some superfluous, pointless things.

 

And if the main theme of GTA is freedom, then it has freedom to adapt as time and technology move along. There's a reason why you never see GTA on any of those discussions or lists of game franchises that should've gone away a long time ago. I think that freedom to adapt is why.

"You tell me exactly what you want, and I'll explain to you very carefully why it cannot be."

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Anyway, I just wanted people to think about this some and it got a better response than I was expecting, tbh. The point remains, GTA must evolve to stay relevant. Plenty of long-running game series that did not do that, people became tired of. This to me is what separates Rockstar from most other game makers.

Totally agree. But IV broke with tradition pretty radically in some places, pissed a lot of people off anyways. And they've already called V a 'complete reinvention' and 'bold new direction' so I think we're good in that department.

 

Leaves the question, in what area will it evolve most? It's not gonna be the graphics but I don't think it's just in size either.

well they said its about the pursuit of the almighty dollar, so maybe money plays an important part in the game this time. maybe money is actually worth something.

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Honest Bill
If you aim to simulate the world, and the world has superfluous, pointless things, then a proper simulation of the world is going to have some superfluous, pointless things.

 

And if the main theme of GTA is freedom, then it has freedom to adapt as time and technology move along. There's a reason why you never see GTA on any of those discussions or lists of game franchises that should've gone away a long time ago. I think that freedom to adapt is why.

Well, you might say that, but let us not forget why we want to simulate the real world, because the actual real world is boring for the most part. The mundane i feel is a stretch too far for a game.

 

That's not to say that i don't appreciate some of the fluff, but i do think they could be a bit more thoughtful about which areas to explore. Many features feel a bit tacked on for no reason. Sure it's essentially giving me more freedom by allowing me to pick up a bottle and throw it, but i never do that in GTA... Why? because it's pointless, and it's boring to me.

 

However, if they made throwing bottles actually fun, like they stick in your victims head, all of a sudden this feature would become more fun. and offer more freedom and would cease then to be 'pointless'

 

I guess i'm saying they shouldn't add half arsed features just for the sake of it, they should weigh up their overall relevance to the gaming experience, which is essentially just the pursuit of fun, in whatever guise you prefer it.

 

Eating from San Andreas, well sure it had a benefit in that it gave you health, it had a bit of a fun factor i suppose in that you could make CJ fat, however the game telling you that you are hungry and decreasing your health over time.. That's a one way journey to pointlessville (It's a real place look it up!) It doesn't really add anything to the game, it just wasn't necessary to put it there, it certainly didn't make things any more fun or open up any different experiences to you that you couldn'tget without it, that's what i'd call a 'pointless' feature.

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Mainland Marauder

 

Well, you might say that, but let us not forget why we want to simulate the real world, because the actual real world is boring for the most part.

It is, and yet a game that primarily revolved around menial household duties and routines only turned into the best selling PC game in history. So maybe "boring" is a subjective term here. It kind of is all the time, really.

 

In GTA, you are to go out and be part of a living world. That living world has much more than the bare essentials you need to get your goals accomplished.

"You tell me exactly what you want, and I'll explain to you very carefully why it cannot be."

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Dr. Zoidberg

I reckon adding in 'pointless' activities would extend the games life time. Have you guys not role played on multiplayer? dont get me started on making movies with GTA.

 

The simple native trainer extended the life of IV A LOT, by allowing the player to manipulate objects, execute player animations and such other fun things in real time with your friends! So if such program/mode/option was implemented into the game and game play as a standard without having hackers to modify or hack the game. That would greatly benefit the game and its players, who knows.. hackers maybe able to modify the game again and extend the life even further!

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