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Just want to share my views on GTA vs previous


mvega0422

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READ THE LAST PARAGRAPH IF YOU'RE TOO LAZY TO READ MY INSIGHTS!

 

This is my first post, though I've been lurking around this forum for about 7-8 months. When you see, "9 Guests are reading this topic" - one of them could be me. I just want to share my views because I haven't seen anyone post anything too similar recently.

 

Firstly, my favorite GTA game is probably GTA III, though I loved them all. I also loved GTA 2, but I'm leaving it out for the intents and purposes of this thread.

 

I feel that GTA III was great for several reasons. I suppose it made me feel scared, it made me feel curious, it made me feel motivated, it made me feel like I was really in the game. I'll never forget when you get your first safehouse and you meet Luigi in the Red Light District. It felt like the world was real to me - ok, this is my house, my garage, my boss, and my neighborhood.

 

I'm having trouble trying to explain it, but I certainly didn't feel the same way about GTA IV... maybe Vice City, maybe San Andreas was cool too, but for other reasons.

 

I loved when I saw an armored truck... I knew what I had to do - I had to find a way to kill the driver and take the truck to the docks, while avoiding being sent to jail for it. It paid off big time, too, I think like $5,000. In San Andreas (or maybe VC), I remember when you could point your gun at a cashier's head and take the money in the register.. it was a risky move, but if you could do it and make a clean getaway, then you'd have some extra money. I remember finding drug dealers in the street and knowing that if I kill them and get away with it, I'll get 6-7 stacks of cash. I remember in GTA III when I started with no real weapon... the feeling of finding that first 9mm is awesome. Now that you have your piece, however, you need ammo or you won't be able to commit many crimes, so you gotta find gangsters or mobsters or even police to get ammo from. This is risky though, you could get wasted or busted, so maybe its better to use some money to get some ammo to fund more crime sprees to get more money.

 

I'll never forget when I found that Dodo in GTA III... oh my god, it was badass. It was so hard to pilot the damn thing, and that made it all the more fun. Flying was a great reward in the game, not just something you do every other mission. Even find the Seaplane in Vice City was awesome and breaking in to the Los Santos Airport was a hell of a thrill... but GTA IV just didn't have "that thing."

 

Then when you got your 2nd house in GTA III... on the 2nd island, Statton Island or whatever. That was an AWESOME safehouse.. its like that whole alley was my f*ckin territory. I had my guns there and I had a huge garage there. That was my place, and I visited it VERY very often.

 

Why doesn't anyone steal my car anymore!?!? Why aren't there drug dealers and hoodlums dropping stacks of cash in the street? (I want this to happen rarely, just like in real life. I -WANT- it to be DIFFICULT, I want to have a CHALLENGE. Don't give me a bunch of overpowered guns. I want to work for my guns and I want to be rewarded for my work. Let me store a weapon at my safehouse, let me customize my car and keep it in a garage (not those parking spaces, a real garage).

 

However, I do love some things from GTA IV. For example, I like how the police AI works.. it's cool that if you keep your face hidden they won't see you, but that's about as complex as their behavior gets. I love how you can parkour up fire escapes, across rooftops, etc, but I feel they should take it further. Let me shimmy across a ledge, let me catch a handhold and take a small leap. Nothing big, just a little more realism with regards to how my character traverses obstacles.

 

HERE'S AN EXAMPLE of the DIFFICULTY I enjoy: I want to start the game as a nobody, with only $50. I need money, cars, planes, mansions, women, yachts, businesses, and weapons. I run to a parking lot, try stealing a car, the alarm goes off, and I get 1 star. I run away, jump a fence or two, hide in someone's backyard until I lose my heat. I run back to the parking lot, find a sh*ttier model car, smash its windows and steal it. I head over to a local hardware store and I purchase a knife for a few dollars (its either that or a baseball bat, or a hammer). I drive my car to a dark alley and hide it out of the view of street police officers. I leave it there and stand near the road on the sidewalk. A man in a suit walks by, so I do a quick check around for police or attentive witnesses. I grab him and walk him to the alley where I hid my car, and I hold the knife to his throat. He drops 4 stacks of cash, around $40-$45. I decide to let him go (cuz I have reservations), but as he runs away he's screaming for help. I quickly hide in the alley as the police officer down the road hears the screams for help and investigates. As he walks into the alley, my strategically chosen fire escape causes him to walk under me. I hop down, grab him, slit his throat, and run towards my car. My wanted level is still 1 Star, because he wasn't able to radio for help. However, 1 or 2 officers will arrive soon to make sure... at that point, your Wanted Level will increase to 2 stars. You must leave the area in your getaway car, avoiding eye contact with police in the vicinity to sneak by them, before your wanted level becomes 2-star. After you lose your wanted level, you decide to ride past the scene of the crime, and you see a police car parked nearby - the officers are investigating, but the killer's trail has turned, and you have completed your first crime.

Edited by mvega0422
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This has nothing to do with anything I wish for in GTA V, this thread has to do with the difficulty of the game and keeping certain things magical. I would like to hear the rest of the community's views on what I spoke of.

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Narcis_speed6
Please use the wishlist topic smile.gifhttp://www.gtaforums.com/index.php?showtopic=471442

 

Locked.

How about report the topics and let the real moderators take care of it?

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Decent enough.

 

I too remember the thrill of busting heads on those dope peddlers in SA (indeed I usually used a bat on them, for some reason) and making a quick ~$2000, then hurrying to the tracks and betting everything on that blasted 5:1 horse... losing was disappointing just as much as winning was trilling. For some reason, I just loved to purchase safe-houses before delving deeper into the new play-through. The only thing I found lacking was the number of businesses, with map as large as SA had one would expect a lot more development in that area. Not for the money, but for the side-missions and characters.

 

For some reason, I liked to collect those Easter eggs in VC and got to know the map really well while doing that. Which leads me to another typical GTA thrill - investigating the area and finding weapon pickups. This was especially important in VC as income/ammo price ratio was a lot steeper then in SA, I still know where are various AK47, M4, RPG, desert eagle and grenades pickups. Oh, the bulletproof vests too. It always payed off to make a quick run and stock up on the gear. In this regard, SA knew how to make me angry as the situation would take away all of your gear several times during the game, leaving you without the oh so beloved hardware. Of course, nothing prevented you to start collecting more as soon as you lost your stuff. I even remember going back to LS after you get kicked out of the town to collect some AK47 rounds and the always useful sawed-off shotgun. Oh, the sniper rifle, as well.

 

Now I remember the reason to collect the Easter eggs - pickups in the safehouse, those were very nice indeed. Plus you got to feel the city, landing on any surfaces, going up even if you can't climb. Epic. I believe stuff like GPS navigation really subtracts from the experience of getting to know the city, luckily they made that feature optional.

 

What I loved especially about those games is the fact the missions were very loosely coded, you could do the same thing in a dozen different ways. Some incredibly easy, other insanely hard. Not many missions would railroad you so you really got that extra incentive to play through a few more times as the as new ideas would constantly pop up in your mind.

 

Ex. there was one VC mission (I believe it was one of the missions for the porn studio asset) where you had to kill some politician while Candy was sucking him off. Anyways, you got to do it from one of the buildings across across the road with your sniper rifle. Of course, as soon as you pulled the trigger hell would break loose, 4 stars was it, and the cops were no laughing matter in VC. So, to tip the odds in my favor I took one of those small hellis and instead of driving to the apartment building I flew there, right to the small patio which was very conveniently placed right below the window you were supposed to take the shot from. Great move, rightly you say. I just killed the bastard, jumped into the heli and flew hastily to the studio grounds. I remember having loads of luck with it as the heli took fire and it exploded half a second after I managed to make a crash landing directly onto the mission end marker. Which incidentally cleared my wanted level.

 

Another ex. The mission in VC where you got to steal the Rhino from the army, on the third island. The technique was simple, wait for the convoy at the donut shop, grab the tank and drive/smash for cover. However, if you are eager as I was, you won't even notice they are stopping on their route. I grabbed a cheetah, drove past them and the plan was born. I drove fast after them taking out the soldiers marching on the right. Managed to make a 180 turn and take the remaining soldiers on the left. Here I caught a lucky break (as well as some incoming fire so the car was heavily damaged) as the two trucks following the tank for some reason floored it and got stuck ahead. I had just enough time to get out of the car, hide in the bushes (even this was only for psychological reasons) and pick them off as they were rushing toward me. Anyhow, later on I tried to repeat this scenario, but couldn't do it, even after numerous attempts.

 

Ah, happy times.

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@mvega0422, I read your post with considerable interest. I found it ... inspiring. So much so that I felt I should spend several days considering a response.

 

I know what you mean about GTA:III. As soon as you started playing it, from the very first time you're on the street, the city felt like a gritty and dangerous place. Mainly because it was. But I only played GTA:III when I was waiting for GTA:IV to fill in the time. But now I have come to realise something.

 

My first GTA was actually GTA:VC. A brilliant game whose superb atmosphere blew me away. But said atmosphere was mainly due to the brilliantly realised 80's vibe. But on reflection, VC wasn't a dangerous place. VC had a glossy, happy atmosphere. The plot was inspired principally by Scarface, but while the movie communicated the dangerous side of the Miami drugs trade, it occurs to me that danger didn't translate into VC.

 

Then, my next GTA was SA. I actually thought that while it tried, that it failed to truly capture the gang banging vibe. I think because it got diluted by the more outlandish missions. Even before CJ gets exiled from Los Santos, he's assaulting army barracks, fighting Russian gangsters in set pieces straight out of T2 and so on. This detracts from what could have been a hard examination of the danger of gang life on the streets.

 

GTA:IV was polished from top to bottom. They went for a brilliantly executed dark crime drama. So dark that many didn't like the change of tone after VC and SA. But did the streets feel dangerous? Did you feel like you were a lowly criminal living life on the edge? In all honesty, I'd have to say no.

 

I wonder if there is a way to recapture the danger of the true criminal experience? I am beginning to feel that some of the "arcade game" mechanics end up serving to mask the player from the experience. On the other hand, the realism factor has been slowly ramped up as GTA has evolved. Of course, not everyone likes uber realism. But of course, it all depends how it is implemented. So here are a few ideas designed to strip away more of the artificial aspects of the game in order to try to expose the player to a more visceral, gritty experience. I warn you, it won't be pretty.

 

Idea 1. Get rid of all the pick ups. Body armour and weapons don't just lay about waiting to be found in real life. If you want a weapon, you have to steal one or buy one on the black market. Or even buy one from a gun shop. One way or another you're going to have to resort to crime to either get a gun, or get the money together to get one.

 

Idea 2. When you kill or incapacitate a person, his money and weapons don't scatter around on the floor. What if you had to search him to find his gun and money? Suppose we borrow the "body examination" mechanic from L.A.Noire, only make it a bit quicker and slicker (we don't want it to slow down the pace of the game). Now you have to rifle through your victim's pockets to find your spoils. Gruesome and visceral.

 

Idea 3. Remove the psychic police. Instead they go off where you were last seen and what direction you were last seen heading in. They patrol the streets to try to find you. Make it a dangerous game of cat and mouse.

 

Idea 4. Make the streets dangerous. You're not the only criminal on the streets. You need to see little bits of other crime here and there. And some criminals might even try to have a go at you.

 

Idea 5. Make the storyline keep you at street level for a significant period of the game. Make money hard to come by. Make it so the criminal bosses you work for like to keep you under their thumbs. Then when you do start rising through the ranks, and start to have some influence of your own, still make sure that it's still dangerous.

 

So, mvega0422, is this the sort of thing you were thinking of?

Edited by meson1
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@mvega0422, I read your post with considerable interest.  I found it ... inspiring.  So much so that I felt I should spend several days considering a response.

 

...

 

So, mvega0422, is this the sort of thing you were thinking of?

Yes, this is exactly what I was thinking of. Your 4 points are brilliant and only make my explanation to IRL friends even stronger.. great words, thanks for pitching in!

 

Edit: if your post wasn't so close to the top of the thread, I would copy+paste it into mine just so everyone could read it. It might be a good idea actually.

Edited by mvega0422
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CSM. HB J-DOGG
@mvega0422, I read your post with considerable interest. I found it ... inspiring. So much so that I felt I should spend several days considering a response.

 

I know what you mean about GTA:III. As soon as you started playing it, from the very first time you're on the street, the city felt like a gritty and dangerous place. Mainly because it was. But I only played GTA:III when I was waiting for GTA:IV to fill in the time. But now I have come to realise something.

 

My first GTA was actually GTA:VC. A brilliant game whose superb atmosphere blew me away. But said atmosphere was mainly due to the brilliantly realised 80's vibe. But on reflection, VC wasn't a dangerous place. VC had a glossy, happy atmosphere. The plot was inspired principally by Scarface, but while the movie communicated the dangerous side of the Miami drugs trade, it occurs to me that danger didn't translate into VC.

 

Then, my next GTA was SA. I actually thought that while it tried, that it failed to truly capture the gang banging vibe. I think because it got diluted by the more outlandish missions. Even before CJ gets exiled from Los Santos, he's assaulting army barracks, fighting Russian gangsters in set pieces straight out of T2 and so on. This detracts from what could have been a hard examination of the danger of gang life on the streets.

 

GTA:IV was polished from top to bottom. They went for a brilliantly executed dark crime drama. So dark that many didn't like the change of tone after VC and SA. But did the streets feel dangerous? Did you feel like you were a lowly criminal living life on the edge? In all honesty, I'd have to say no.

 

I wonder if there is a way to recapture the danger of the true criminal experience? I am beginning to feel that some of the "arcade game" mechanics end up serving to mask the player from the experience. On the other hand, the realism factor has been slowly ramped up as GTA has evolved. Of course, not everyone likes uber realism. But of course, it all depends how it is implemented. So here are a few ideas designed to strip away more of the artificial aspects of the game in order to try to expose the player to a more visceral, gritty experience. I warn you, it won't be pretty.

 

Idea 1. Get rid of all the pick ups. Body armour and weapons don't just lay about waiting to be found in real life. If you want a weapon, you have to steal one or buy one on the black market. Or even buy one from a gun shop. One way or another you're going to have to resort to crime to either get a gun, or get the money together to get one.

 

Idea 2. When you kill or incapacitate a person, his money and weapons don't scatter around on the floor. What if you had to search him to find his gun and money? Suppose we borrow the "body examination" mechanic from L.A.Noire, only make it a bit quicker and slicker (we don't want it to slow down the pace of the game). Now you have to rifle through your victim's pockets to find your spoils. Gruesome and visceral.

 

Idea 3. Remove the psychic police. Instead they go off where you were last seen and what direction you were last seen heading in. They patrol the streets to try to find you. Make it a dangerous game of cat and mouse.

 

Idea 4. Make the streets dangerous. You're not the only criminal on the streets. You need to see little bits of other crime here and there. And some criminals might even try to have a go at you.

 

Idea 5. Make the storyline keep you at street level for a significant period of the game. Make money hard to come by. Make it so the criminal bosses you work for like to keep you under their thumbs. Then when you do start rising through the ranks, and start to have some influence of your own, still make sure that it's still dangerous.

 

So, mvega0422, is this the sort of thing you were thinking of?

Idea number 4 needs to be in here definately there should also be like other random peds or groups robbing banks. You know how cool it would be to be at a Red Light and all of a suddend a van pulls up in front of the bank and guys in mask run in and rob it. lol I would wait for them to leave follow them and rob them lol.

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Dr. Zoidberg

I totally get what you mean, i was so afraid to do anything in GTA3 because everything was out to get you and you wernt safe at all. Although, realistically.. it wouldnt be like that everywhere you go, unless if you ventured down a wrong street or part of town during night time.

 

Also, my one gripe about police AI in IV is that, if you're wanted at two or more and you get away from the police racing down the highway and such, they would spawn infront of you or in the opposite lane. Its freaking annoying. Also, jumping cars doesnt make you 'invisible' to police, they would immediately know its you and try to apprehend you.

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My first GTA was actually GTA:VC. A brilliant game whose superb atmosphere blew me away. But said atmosphere was mainly due to the brilliantly realised 80's vibe. But on reflection, VC wasn't a dangerous place. VC had a glossy, happy atmosphere. The plot was inspired principally by Scarface, but while the movie communicated the dangerous side of the Miami drugs trade, it occurs to me that danger didn't translate into VC.

 

Then, my next GTA was SA. I actually thought that while it tried, that it failed to truly capture the gang banging vibe. I think because it got diluted by the more outlandish missions. Even before CJ gets exiled from Los Santos, he's assaulting army barracks, fighting Russian gangsters in set pieces straight out of T2 and so on. This detracts from what could have been a hard examination of the danger of gang life on the streets.

 

GTA:IV was polished from top to bottom. They went for a brilliantly executed dark crime drama. So dark that many didn't like the change of tone after VC and SA. But did the streets feel dangerous? Did you feel like you were a lowly criminal living life on the edge? In all honesty, I'd have to say no.

 

I wonder if there is a way to recapture the danger of the true criminal experience? I am beginning to feel that some of the "arcade game" mechanics end up serving to mask the player from the experience. On the other hand, the realism factor has been slowly ramped up as GTA has evolved. Of course, not everyone likes uber realism. But of course, it all depends how it is implemented. So here are a few ideas designed to strip away more of the artificial aspects of the game in order to try to expose the player to a more visceral, gritty experience. I warn you, it won't be pretty.

Vice City was great, but like you said, it had more to do with the atmosphere of the game. It was upbeat, fun, and very different from Liberty City, but yes the danger just didn't feel like it was there. In SA, you are 100% right: If you are attacking a military base before you've finished the first island, then the realism/grittiness has been compromised. They could've went really deep with urban culture and "gang life" - it's a huge subject that has just as much depth as the mafia, or the military, without being mixed with either of the two. I understand they want it to be fun, I want it to be fun too, but I feel that no title has come close to GTA III thus far.

 

So I believe in your statement concerning a balance between "arcade" and "realism" - I don't want the ridiculous physics, graphics and mechanics of GTA3, I like the graphics and physics of GTA 4. But I don't need anything more, just a different color palette, and maybe some new cars, and I'll be happy. As for the map, well, I don't care about that either... I love both Liberty City's and Vice City and San Andreas - my only wish would be that we have some country areas to explore (like in SA). It's the little things that matter to me, .. in my opinion, GTA is over 75% the perfect game to me. It's so close to being the perfect game to me that I do consider it the perfect game. All it needs is small features, things that are crucial to the crime sandbox experience.

 

The reason I play GTA is because I would never even think of harming innocent people IRL; the only way I can begin to understand violence and street life is by playing a damn video game. So let me do that, please. I don't need a fancy phone or GPS. Or "Click X to Kick Dancer Out of Club". Or a Faster-Than-Light Taxi. All I need are three things:

 

#1 - Good physics, mechanics. This includes being able to tow another vehicle, or load a bike or vehicle onto a semi or yacht. This also includes realistic movement, such as handhold-climbing and smart jumping. I should be able to get away from 2-3 stars on foot, though it should still very difficult on 3 stars (in GTA 4 its basically impossible).

 

#2 - Good crime simulation. This means realistic police AI, realistic crime execution (robbing businesses [burglarizing homes would be amazing, but beyond what I ask for] taking hostages, incapacitation, stealth, street mugging, etc. I should be able to call a couple A.I. homies and have them help me with crimes by the end of the game.

 

#3 - Good economy/asset system. This includes a black market for me to buy/sell guns, cars (and drugs?) and a legal economy so I could own businesses, homes, yachts, hangars, clothes, jewelry, guns, etc. I should be able to pay money to customize not only the appearance of my car but the performance of my car as well.

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I agree with almost everything you said, this is something that is really important and it's posts like these that make me hope R* is looking at this forum.

 

THIS is the kind of stuff we need to be asking R* for, and you put it together wonderfully.

 

I really hope R* has realized this and incorporated all of this into GTAV

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I agree with almost everything you said, this is something that is really important and it's posts like these that make me hope R* is looking at this forum.

 

THIS is the kind of stuff we need to be asking R* for, and you put it together wonderfully.

 

I really hope R* has realized this and incorporated all of this into GTAV

I notice that often times, especially on these forums, people ask for things that won't even be considered to be put in the game. The goal of this thread is to go back to the basics and analyze what GTA is all about. I believe R* will see this thread if we continue to elaborate on the subject, because this forum is probably one of the only places R* actually does look to gauge player opinion.

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because this forum is probably one of the only places R* actually does look to gauge player opinion.

I honestly doubt that.

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I only read the last paragraph, and you can do all of that in every GTA game just about. Just use your imagination...

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I really like your idea. I think if R* can make that work it will be FAR better than old GTA systems, and provide a really bold new direction for the franchise.

 

There should be an actual law system in V that we can manipulate as much as our resources allow, acquired from in-game progression, that may be incorporated all from both storyline and sandbox mechanics.

 

Thanks for sharing, screw that dumbass keyboard warrior who thinks this belongs in the generic wishlist. Your idea can inspire a lot more, to be honest and I can write out another whole thread about it lol...not now though.

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GourangaMaster

Great thread and genuinely interesting read. Main thing that stood out for me and I totally agree with is the aspect of danger and feeling like you were in a world much bigger ghan the character. GTA 3 definetly captured that atmosphere that the subsequent gtas have failed to recreate.

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I only read the last paragraph, and you can do all of that in every GTA game just about. Just use your imagination...

Can you please elaborate? You can not even come close to doing what I said... I don't think you actually read it. You can't grab anyone without killing them, you can't mug anyone without killing them, the police officers are nearly psychic (unless you're standing at their 6 o'clock, in which case they become deaf), money is almost useless, weapons are unrealistically abundant, and danger is almost non-existent...

 

 

Edit: One more thing. Yesterday after I made this thread I decided to go play GTA 4 EoLC (for the first time since my best friend passed away,) and I couldn't find one hint of danger at all. Are there any gangs anywhere in the city? Is there anything dangerous in the game (besides overzealous crooked police officers)? I personally couldn't find a damn thing...

 

Edit 2: Before anyone calls me out on it, yes I know there are a couple little psuedo-gangs in the deepest corners of LC, and I know some of them even carry guns. But it's literally a joke, there's no danger at all, and you could drive around all day and be lucky to find them, let alone actually know where their "territory" is and feel threatened when you're there.

 

Edit 3: (the last one for now).. I DON'T WANT SAINTS ROW. If I want a ridiculous sandbox experience, why would I choose GTA when Saints Row has so much more to offer? I want the grittiness, the realism, the danger, the struggle. Not the scud missiles and VTOL's...

Edited by mvega0422
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I want San Andreas gang territory style back. It always never boring to tweak out a lowrider and take a few 'buddies' on a stroll through Watts to antagonize the inhabitants. I would literally leave gang territory open in specific areas for this sole reason...

 

I was at least hoping that in GTA IV there would be gun fights sparking randomly between enemies in the shadier areas. I also feel like the loneliest car jacker in the city... to go with that our main protagonists in vanilla IV and the episodes were all self-righteous do-gooders.

 

 

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I'm loving everything that has been said in this thread so far, I never really thought about this stuff in GTA until now. In GTA V I would love to actually feel like I am really committing a gruesome crime, when I commit one. The reason I fell in love with GTA as because I could commit crimes, which aren't necessarily over the top like saints row.

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