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Sanjeem

Would some European countries...

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Sanjeem

First, just to let me make myself clear, despite my signature which does contain "Fascist Symbols" as it were, to me they are just there as they represent my symbols of my Nation State (Game). However the topic of Fascism and Far Right movements really do interest me. Before people judge, What I think Hitler, Mussolini and Stalin + any other extreme dictator has done in the past is completely wrong and just disgraceful to mankind. However in the recent months we have seen more right wing supporters spring up in Greece, Called the Golden Dawn. In Other countries such as Italy more far right groups have popped up and gaining support. Maybe not for the "Right reasons" and by that I mean some people are just dumb and racist who support these groups but never the less.

 

But economically and spiritually don't you think some of these European countries who have been hit hard by the economic crisis be better under Far Right rule? If not maybe even Far Left rule but like in almost every historic event in history, when people feel downgraded and lose their pride, they always turn to the extreme. That is kind of happening now I think, for better or for worse. I'm not even sure if Far right rule in general can be better for the economy. But what is your view on the matter?

 

 

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sivispacem

There's a reason extremist parties are the final choice for most- they have a history defined by poor decisions. As doubtlessly effective as some aspects of extremist political policy have been in dome areas, far left and right parties never last long, or last well. Which is what you expect for organisations who aside from a very fanatical but minuscule support base have to rely on protest votes to succeed.

 

And Golden Dawn are more than just Far Right. They make the BNP look like girl scouts. They firebomb mosques, attack immigrant workers and their supporters have hewn implicated in at least two racist murders. One of their new parliamentarians gave the Nazi salute to amassed reporters and citizens from host balcony on hearing he had won- that's enough to land you in prison in most of Northern Europe.

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Sanjeem
There's a reason extremist parties are the final choice for most- they have a history defined by poor decisions. As doubtlessly effective as some aspects of extremist political policy have been in dome areas, far left and right parties never last long, or last well. Which is what you expect for organisations who aside from a very fanatical but minuscule support base have to rely on protest votes to succeed.

 

And Golden Dawn are more than just Far Right. They make the BNP look like girl scouts. They firebomb mosques, attack immigrant workers and their supporters have hewn implicated in at least two racist murders. One of their new parliamentarians gave the Nazi salute to amassed reporters and citizens from host balcony on hearing he had won- that's enough to land you in prison in most of Northern Europe.

Just out of curiosity because you seem to know what you are talking about every time you post, is Fascism and Far Right extremism more common or acceptable in Southern European countries than Northern European countries these days. Can performing some sort of Nazi/Roman salute these days in most Western countries carry a jail sentence? Surely burning poppies on armistice day is just as bad and the Muslim Extremists only got fines.

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Typhus

A vote for the far right is a vote for barbarism, ignorance and international isolation.

Far-right policies are inferior and have proven to be inferior in every poor, benighted country that has adopted them. They invariably lead to systems which are either plutocratic and governed by corporate stooges or almost Monarchical, hereditary tyrannies with the trappings of Republicanism.

To cover for their dire record on human rights and civil liberties, they always blame some convenient scapegoat, often one they conjure out of thin air.

Let's look at some examples, shall we?

 

Idi Amin blamed Asians and expelled them to England, Trujillo blamed Haitians and had thousands murdered, Hitler blamed the Jews, Mussolini blamed Socialists. In the modern world, psuedo-fascists like Berlusconi and Chavez have followed suit, using vast media control to slander the hazily defined 'Communists' and 'Westerners'.

 

The European far-right hides behind words we know and trust. Democracy, culture, tradition. But believe me when I say this, they are as dangerous and reactionary as any bearded Jihadist. They seek only chaos, chaos and disunity, your fear is their gain.

They are not a viable choice, they are nothing but a foul swamp of zealots, opportunists and populists. And eventually every single one of these parties will betray the very people who voted for them.

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thatstupidbug
First, just to let me make myself clear, despite my signature which does contain "Fascist Symbols" as it were, to me they are just there as they represent my symbols of my Nation State (Game). However the topic of Fascism and Far Right movements really do interest me. Before people judge, What I think Hitler, Mussolini and Stalin + any other extreme dictator has done in the past is completely wrong and just disgraceful to mankind. However in the recent months we have seen more right wing supporters spring up in Greece, Called the Golden Dawn. In Other countries such as Italy more far right groups have popped up and gaining support. Maybe not for the "Right reasons" and by that I mean some people are just dumb and racist who support these groups but never the less.

 

But economically and spiritually don't you think some of these European countries who have been hit hard by the economic crisis be better under Far Right rule? If not maybe even Far Left rule but like in almost every historic event in history, when people feel downgraded and lose their pride, they always turn to the extreme. That is kind of happening now I think, for better or for worse. I'm not even sure if Far right rule in general can be better for the economy. But what is your view on the matter?

are you italian? if yes, what are the new "far right group" with gaining support? all the big parties are in decline, and the only new movement I can remember is the "Movimento 5 stelle" (5-stars movement), and it isn't a "left" or "right" party (as they claim). there's "AN" and "La destra" (The Right), but they are very, very small.

 

Am I missing something?

 

sorry if not everyone of you will understand my request about italian policy, but it's just my curiosity wink.gif

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sivispacem
There's a reason extremist parties are the final choice for most- they have a history defined by poor decisions. As doubtlessly effective as some aspects of extremist political policy have been in dome areas, far left and right parties never last long, or last well. Which is what you expect for organisations who aside from a very fanatical but minuscule support base have to rely on protest votes to succeed.

 

And Golden Dawn are more than just Far Right. They make the BNP look like girl scouts. They firebomb mosques, attack immigrant workers and their supporters have hewn implicated in at least two racist murders. One of their new parliamentarians gave the Nazi salute to amassed reporters and citizens from host balcony on hearing he had won- that's enough to land you in prison in most of Northern Europe.

Just out of curiosity because you seem to know what you are talking about every time you post, is Fascism and Far Right extremism more common or acceptable in Southern European countries than Northern European countries these days. Can performing some sort of Nazi/Roman salute these days in most Western countries carry a jail sentence? Surely burning poppies on armistice day is just as bad and the Muslim Extremists only got fines.

I would say yes, but primarily because the economies and political infrastructures of Southern European countries are less...mature, shall we say? For instance, Spain didn't become democratic until the mid 1970s. Generally, countries with higher political corruption and less stable economies are more prone to political radicalism in all its kinds. Just look at the rise of Anarchism and Communism in Greece...

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Typhus
There's a reason extremist parties are the final choice for most- they have a history defined by poor decisions. As doubtlessly effective as some aspects of extremist political policy have been in dome areas, far left and right parties never last long, or last well. Which is what you expect for organisations who aside from a very fanatical but minuscule support base have to rely on protest votes to succeed.

 

And Golden Dawn are more than just Far Right. They make the BNP look like girl scouts. They firebomb mosques, attack immigrant workers and their supporters have hewn implicated in at least two racist murders. One of their new parliamentarians gave the Nazi salute to amassed reporters and citizens from host balcony on hearing he had won- that's enough to land you in prison in most of Northern Europe.

Just out of curiosity because you seem to know what you are talking about every time you post, is Fascism and Far Right extremism more common or acceptable in Southern European countries than Northern European countries these days. Can performing some sort of Nazi/Roman salute these days in most Western countries carry a jail sentence? Surely burning poppies on armistice day is just as bad and the Muslim Extremists only got fines.

I would say yes, but primarily because the economies and political infrastructures of Southern European countries are less...mature, shall we say? For instance, Spain didn't become democratic until the mid 1970s. Generally, countries with higher political corruption and less stable economies are more prone to political radicalism in all its kinds. Just look at the rise of Anarchism and Communism in Greece...

Which is why I maintain that we should reduce the number of member states in the European Union and redraw the map of the continent to distance ourselves from potentially combustible elements, as Greece has proven to be.

You're right, for so many of these countries democracy is nothing but a brief flirtation and at the first sign of trouble they go back to their old habits, back to the strong-men and the juntas and the thugs.

Frankly, it has become an embarrassment.

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Dingdongs
There's a reason extremist parties are the final choice for most- they have a history defined by poor decisions. As doubtlessly effective as some aspects of extremist political policy have been in dome areas, far left and right parties never last long, or last well. Which is what you expect for organisations who aside from a very fanatical but minuscule support base have to rely on protest votes to succeed.

 

And Golden Dawn are more than just Far Right. They make the BNP look like girl scouts. They firebomb mosques, attack immigrant workers and their supporters have hewn implicated in at least two racist murders. One of their new parliamentarians gave the Nazi salute to amassed reporters and citizens from host balcony on hearing he had won- that's enough to land you in prison in most of Northern Europe.

Just out of curiosity because you seem to know what you are talking about every time you post, is Fascism and Far Right extremism more common or acceptable in Southern European countries than Northern European countries these days. Can performing some sort of Nazi/Roman salute these days in most Western countries carry a jail sentence? Surely burning poppies on armistice day is just as bad and the Muslim Extremists only got fines.

I would say yes, but primarily because the economies and political infrastructures of Southern European countries are less...mature, shall we say? For instance, Spain didn't become democratic until the mid 1970s. Generally, countries with higher political corruption and less stable economies are more prone to political radicalism in all its kinds. Just look at the rise of Anarchism and Communism in Greece...

I think Spain isn't a good example of that though. You're talking about the 5th largest economy in the entire EU, the 3rd most important financial center in the EU, etc. It's really not an example of a Southern European backwater country.

 

Typhus, in terms of the entire economic strength of the EU, it's better to have even the small, crappy ones in there. Or is your opinion just more of a social one, that is you would only the countries that embrace more western European values in there?

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glenn tha killer

Ireland would be better as socialist in my opinion. That goes to the fellow European countries in debt. Thats all I want for the government unless a strong party like Sìn Feìn gets power, although they would have to form government with others because they are two small which may foil any hope.

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Chunkyman
That goes to the fellow European countries in debt.

Err... How would more socialism help them solve the debt problem (or any problem...)?

 

 

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sivispacem
That goes to the fellow European countries in debt.

Err... How would more socialism help them solve the debt problem (or any problem...)?

A good question- it wouldn't. In fact, it's almost guaranteed to make things worse.

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Dingdongs

Not necessarily. You pour some fiscal stimulus into these countries, get their economies running again, then after pass a large, EU-wide long term austerity plan. Either that, or keep trying to cut your way to prosperity in the middle of a recession (and cause another one in the UK while yoyre at it). I migjy also add which is worse in the long run because you'll have more debt to deal with than you would if you did nothing

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sivispacem
Not necessarily. You pour some fiscal stimulus into these countries, get their economies running again, then after pass a large, EU-wide long term austerity plan. Either that, or keep trying to cut your way to prosperity in the middle of a recession (and cause another one in the UK while yoyre at it). I migjy also add which is worse in the long run because you'll have more debt to deal with than you would if you did nothing

That only really applies to subsidising parts of the economy which produce measurable value though. The issue thus fast has been the lack of any real merit behind the planning of such investment. That's also implied by the Socialist statement. I wholeheartedly agree that targeted funding is required to ensure proper growth but take the example of public healthcare expenditure in the UK as an example. A doubling of investment has resulted in no measurable gain in quality and no real return on that investment so why continue investing to the same degree if it doesn't actually improve things? That's why cost cutting needs to be wisely targeted on areas of the public sector which are revenue and benefit neutral or worse.

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Dingdongs
Not necessarily. You pour some fiscal stimulus into these countries, get their economies running again, then after pass a large, EU-wide long term austerity plan. Either that, or keep trying to cut your way to prosperity in the middle of a recession (and cause another one in the UK while yoyre at it). I migjy also add which is worse in the long run because you'll have more debt to deal with than you would if you did nothing

That only really applies to subsidising parts of the economy which produce measurable value though. The issue thus fast has been the lack of any real merit behind the planning of such investment. That's also implied by the Socialist statement. I wholeheartedly agree that targeted funding is required to ensure proper growth but take the example of public healthcare expenditure in the UK as an example. A doubling of investment has resulted in no measurable gain in quality and no real return on that investment so why continue investing to the same degree if it doesn't actually improve things? That's why cost cutting needs to be wisely targeted on areas of the public sector which are revenue and benefit neutral or worse.

It's not even subsidizing. It's just simply pouring money into the economy, in the form of tax credits, infrastructure projects, etc. I don't agree with cutting even the most overpaid workers in time of a recession because you just contract the economy further.

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Sanjeem

 

First, just to let me make myself clear, despite my signature which does contain "Fascist Symbols" as it were, to me they are just there as they represent my symbols of my Nation State (Game). However the topic of Fascism and Far Right movements really do interest me. Before people judge, What I think Hitler, Mussolini and Stalin + any other extreme dictator has done in the past is completely wrong and just disgraceful to mankind. However in the recent months we have seen more right wing supporters spring up in Greece, Called the Golden Dawn. In Other countries such as Italy more far right groups have popped up and gaining support. Maybe not for the "Right reasons" and by that I mean some people are just dumb and racist who support these groups but never the less.

 

But economically and spiritually don't you think some of these European countries who have been hit hard by the economic crisis be better under Far Right rule? If not maybe even Far Left rule but like in almost every historic event in history, when people feel downgraded and lose their pride, they always turn to the extreme. That is kind of happening now I think, for better or for worse. I'm not even sure if Far right rule in general can be better for the economy. But what is your view on the matter?

are you italian? if yes, what are the new "far right group" with gaining support? all the big parties are in decline, and the only new movement I can remember is the "Movimento 5 stelle" (5-stars movement), and it isn't a "left" or "right" party (as they claim). there's "AN" and "La destra" (The Right), but they are very, very small.

 

Am I missing something?

 

sorry if not everyone of you will understand my request about italian policy, but it's just my curiosity wink.gif

You missed out the Tricolour Flame, here take a look. They aren't big at all but much bigger and probably have more influence than the BNP would have.

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tricolour_Flame

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sivispacem
First, just to let me make myself clear, despite my signature which does contain "Fascist Symbols" as it were, to me they are just there as they represent my symbols of my Nation State (Game). However the topic of Fascism and Far Right movements really do interest me. Before people judge, What I think Hitler, Mussolini and Stalin + any other extreme dictator has done in the past is completely wrong and just disgraceful to mankind. However in the recent months we have seen more right wing supporters spring up in Greece, Called the Golden Dawn. In Other countries such as Italy more far right groups have popped up and gaining support. Maybe not for the "Right reasons" and by that I mean some people are just dumb and racist who support these groups but never the less.

 

But economically and spiritually don't you think some of these European countries who have been hit hard by the economic crisis be better under Far Right rule? If not maybe even Far Left rule but like in almost every historic event in history, when people feel downgraded and lose their pride, they always turn to the extreme. That is kind of happening now I think, for better or for worse. I'm not even sure if Far right rule in general can be better for the economy. But what is your view on the matter?

are you italian? if yes, what are the new "far right group" with gaining support? all the big parties are in decline, and the only new movement I can remember is the "Movimento 5 stelle" (5-stars movement), and it isn't a "left" or "right" party (as they claim). there's "AN" and "La destra" (The Right), but they are very, very small.

 

Am I missing something?

 

sorry if not everyone of you will understand my request about italian policy, but it's just my curiosity wink.gif

You missed out the Tricolour Flame, here take a look. They aren't big at all but much bigger and probably have more influence than the BNP would have.

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tricolour_Flame

I'd dispute that. The BNP have both more popular support, and have MEPs, whereas Tricolour flame don't.

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Killer.Khan

I think some of them such as Greece/Italy/Spain would. They are the defenders of European borders and groups like the Golden Dawn are showing that people are increasingly frustrated with them becoming a minority in their own countries of heritage and I can sympathize with that.

 

In my opinion, these far-right parties are totally justified and have a purpose/reason to exist as an outlet of anger from the native peoples.

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sivispacem
I think some of them such as Greece/Italy/Spain would. They are the defenders of European borders and groups like the Golden Dawn are showing that people are increasingly frustrated with them becoming a minority in their own countries of heritage and I can sympathize with that.

 

In my opinion, these far-right parties are totally justified and have a purpose/reason to exist as an outlet of anger from the native peoples.

So you think it's perfectly okay to use legal immigrants and expatriates as a scapegoat for national problems largely caused by a domestic minority? To me, that absolutely beggars belief. Nations joined the EU not because they were forced to, but because popular opinion dictated they should. To suddenly become swallowed up by a sense of bigoted, nationalistic pride when things go tits-up and start blaming foreigners, minorities and immigrants is utterly absurd, completely illogical and incredibly dangerous. Isn't that how the persecution of the Jews started in Germany?

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gtaivpc

f*cking neonazis man. f*cking neonazis.

http://eagainst.com/articles/greek-neonazi...opponent-on-tv/

 

btw you are simply advocating those far-right neonazi parties because you have no f*cking clue what you're talking about. my country has been under a dictatorship. people were slaughtered, massacred, tortured, and put in exile. no freedom of speech, no rights. no, that's not the solution.

 

-This is D&D, not general chat. Please ensure future posts are up to the standards of the subforum. SVP.-

Edited by sivispacem

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JoakimThastrom

I really don't give a sh*t if the islamophobic SD, nationalist SvP or left wing socialdemocrats run Sweden aslong as they get us out of EU, take soldiers back from abroad and stop taking in 1000 Somalis a week.

 

 

Would be nice to see some companies other than Jewish Bonniers producing schoolbooks, or Conspiracy Keanu might turn right-wing! orly.gif

Teach every theory, conspiracy, ideology etc in schools.

 

 

Oh and I'm a second gen immigrant, so no reason to call me an evil nazi monocle.gif

Edited by JoakimThastrom

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sivispacem
I really don't give a sh*t if the islamophobic SD, nationalist SvP or left wing socialdemocrats run Sweden aslong as they get us out of EU, take soldiers back from abroad and stop taking in 1000 Somalis a week

Why do you want to leave the EU? Do you have any real reason for it or are you just a xenophobe?

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Dingdongs
I really don't give a sh*t if the islamophobic SD, nationalist SvP or left wing socialdemocrats run Sweden aslong as they get us out of EU, take soldiers back from abroad and stop taking in 1000 Somalis a week

Why do you want to leave the EU? Do you have any real reason for it or are you just a xenophobe?

What? He doesn't want his money going to Somalians. It's pretty simple. What have the Somalians ever done for you, Sivis?

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Root27
f*cking neonazis man. f*cking neonazis.

http://eagainst.com/articles/greek-neonazi...opponent-on-tv/

 

btw you are simply advocating those far-right neonazi parties because you have no f*cking clue what you're talking about. my country has been under a dictatorship. people were slaughtered, massacred, tortured, and put in exile. no freedom of speech, no rights. no, that's not the solution.

 

-This is D&D, not general chat. Please ensure future posts are up to the standards of the subforum. SVP.-

Kasidiaris has lost it, the "Golden Dawn" has lost it.

When do they realize that without the immigrants our beloved country would be in a worse scenario then it already is?

 

I personally, hold my fingers crossed for the Nea Dimokratia

The things they say seem more legit as the things that the PASOK or SYRIZA say

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sivispacem

New Democracy seem to reflect the current trend (France excepted) for centre-right/libertarian political parties in Europe. That said, even though the French Socialists are by very name and definition centre-left, Hollande has quite centrist political and economic views and much of the party is populated by individuals with certain right-leaning views, especially on economic and social policy.

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gtaivpc

I think that whoever has his hopes up for New Democracy is delusional. ND is a part of the problem. Along with PASOK, they have ruled greece for the last 40 years, and they have made it a corrupted, bureaucratic, ineffective state. ND was one of those parties that bankrupted Greece and yet the Europeans tell us it's the most responsible choice. This is madness (and bs as well). The only reason for someone to be optimistic about this government is Democratic Left. If they fail, we are going to be in way more trouble than we are now.

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Root27
I think that whoever has his hopes up for New Democracy is delusional. ND is a part of the problem. Along with PASOK, they have ruled greece for the last 40 years, and they have made it a corrupted, bureaucratic, ineffective state. ND was one of those parties that bankrupted Greece and yet the Europeans tell us it's the most responsible choice. This is madness (and bs as well). The only reason for someone to be optimistic about this government is Democratic Left. If they fail, we are going to be in way more trouble than we are now.

So who is the best Party in Greece then? SYRIZA? ANEL? I'm sure that the Far-Right parties (Chrysi Avgi) can't do it better

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gtaivpc

First of all, let's exclude the parties that are responsible for the current situation. PASOK, ND out. Then, let's exclude the extremes that support an authoritarian and totalitarian state. KKE, Golden dawn out. You have Syriza, ANEL, and Democratic Left. I choose DemLeft. A Syriza-DemLeft coalition would be better, because now the people do not believe in/support the government, and there is no hope. Syriza's public support and DemLeft's responsible stance is the best combo we can have at this moment. I find no reason in the people who voted for ND. No wonder it was the rural areas, the elderly, and the farmers that voted for them in big percentages.

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sivispacem
A Syriza-DemLeft coalition would be better, because now the people do not believe in/support the government, and there is no hope.

Correct me of I'm wrong but ND tramped both Syriza and DL last week? How can you imply that the current administration are not supposed by the people and then go on to suggest a coalition of two parties with even less public support?

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gtaivpc

Of course I don't mean they should do it now. This would only be possible if Syriza won the elections.

 

The reason ND won over Syriza wasn't because ND has a big "fan base" so to say, it was because the media portrated Syriza as hell itself. The electoral system here pretty much guarantees that the first party, which is given a 50 seat bonus (even if the difference is one vote), HAS to form a government. So it is sure that ND would form a coalition. The media consistently terrorized the people that if Syriza won we'd go back to the drachma, there would be a war, we would give a part of our country to turkey etc. We are talking about mad propaganda here.

 

As the exit poll showed, ND had like 50%, and Syriza was kept at ~15% among the ages 55+, the farmers, and the housekeeping women. Unfortunately the population growth is very small/negative so that is a HUGE part of the population.

Instead Syriza came first along the ages 18-24, 25-34, 35-44, 45-54. It came first among the students. It came first among the employees, both from public and private sector. It came first along the freelancers. It came first along the unemployed (which is a huge part of Greece's society, as official unemployment is about 22%). That's why I'm saying Syriza has public support; the productive part of the population voted them. They are the ones that are going to flood the streets if ANOTHER package with austerity is announced.

 

Syriza also won in most of the big cities, while the rural population voted ND.

Edited by gtaivpc

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sivispacem
The reason ND won over Syriza wasn't because ND has a big "fan base" so to say, it was because the media portrated Syriza as hell itself. ...The media consistently terrorized the people that if Syriza won we'd go back to the drachma, there would be a war, we would give a part of our country to turkey etc. We are talking about mad propaganda here.

 

As the exit poll showed, ND had like 50%, and Syriza was kept at ~15% among the ages 55+, the farmers, and the housekeeping women. Unfortunately the population growth is very small/negative so that is a HUGE part of the population.

Instead Syriza came first along the ages 18-24, 25-34, 35-44, 45-54. It came first among the students. It came first among the employees, both from public and private sector. It came first along the freelancers. It came first along the unemployed (which is a huge part of Greece's society, as official unemployment is about 22%). That's why I'm saying Syriza has public support; the productive part of the population voted them. They are the ones that are going to flood the streets if ANOTHER package with austerity is announced.

I understand that media portrayal matters a lot, but I don't think that there was any feasible way the Greece could have remained in the Euro had one of the anti-bailout parties taken the helm. Greece already represents a negative-sum nation in the Euro zone- costing more to other nations than it can deliver- and there are quite a few amongst the Central European powers (Germany and the Benelux primarily) who wish that the Euro was the preserve of the Germanic nations and not those pesky Southern European states with their big deficits and sluggish economies.

 

I don't disagree with any of these points, but in any given election you can pick and choose who you want to listen to in terms of voter groups and their views and it does precisely not one jot of good. In the grand scheme of deciding who runs a country, it is the party with the most votes or the one who can form a majority coalition who matters, and whilst I think it is important for any administration to note particular dissatisfaction amongst voter groups in an election, when that has no bearing on the actual result of the election one must concede that the popular will has triumphed.

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