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Categorizing Stupid AI


TheShogunOfHarlem

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TheShogunOfHarlem

Stupid AI is probably one of the bigger pet peeves of many gamers out there when you are looking for a challenge. Here I want to initiate a discussion as to what brain dead characteristics that anybody has encountered (Videos are welcome if possible) in playing any of the previous GTA games or any other game when it comes to moronic AI.

 

I have stated previously that a common problem I've seen with Enemy AI is:

1. Stupidly rushing in on a position when you have an automatic weapon in a fortified area. This one pisses me off the most and is present in a number of games.

 

2. My next pet peeve is AI making themselves such easy targets of themselves whenever they are maneuvering from cover to cover. Every time I see enemy AI running maneuvering from place to place try to get a better firing position, I sarcastically say thank you for making my job easier. This is common in all games that I have played.

 

3. My last issue is really only a GTA problem: Handicapping AI tactics. Specifically speaking enemy AI in GTA 4 and RDR aren't able to force you out of cover with grenades/RPGs and other explosive ordinance.

 

EDIT: Another issue I forgot to mention was retreating AI. In all games except for two that I have played (GRAW 2 and the Halo games) AI never retreated when they are outgunned or outnumbered.

 

Here's my question to the rest of you: How would you define stupid AI?

Edited by TheShogunOfHarlem
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Ah, there ARE other AI topics in this catagory of GTA V, and I don't see the point in calling the AI of RAGE/Euphoria engine gen era "dumb", so why does this relate to GTA V, do you think?

 

The last example could be a problem for some, but in my experience, AI is a very tough thing to evolve, it makes the game more lifelike without actual players, as in MP sections of game-play.

 

In Uncharted 1, in the courtyard filled with enemies, mid-game, you have them slowly encroach upon any position you try and hold, I'd say GTA could be argued to be missing that type of enemy AI, I found it very challenging, even with enemy AI starting out in the same known positions, they didn't stay in one spot. So, there's room for some ideas to improve, on second thought.

Example mission I'm thinking of;

Two times at least you play key geography coming and going, this is coming back to the same courtyard

 

 

Earlier, same courtyard, One of the cheats is to run to the next starting point, and cut off all fighting you'd normally do in this locale!

 

 

Focusing on the old, out-dated AI for GTA V still has little bearing

 

Ones for some of the prior GTA do exist, case in point;

 

Edited by Slamman
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Well if you look at the Max Payne 3 Design and Technology Series:

 

Around 2:49 into the video they discuss AI and how it has improved:

 

-Enemy intelligence varies depending on if they are street thugs, gang members, or elite special forces.

 

-Several thousand unique animations covering a range of movements like reaction to injury or taking cover.

 

-Enemies respond uniquely to weapon hits depending on the weapon and angle of fire.

 

 

Also earlier in the video they show a few people creep up to find Max taking cover and they retreat to take cover.

 

Granted this is for Max Payne but it seems that most of it could be implemented in GTA V

 

 

 

 

 

 

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Hydro_PlayboyX

i cant remember which game was it, but cops were so stupid that when i came right in front of their face they were still aiming at the character which they were shooting at before i came

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JoshGTAfreak

A lot of these, like the movements that get the AI killed, is just to make the game easier. If they stayed in cover the whole time, it would be frustrating trying to kill them...

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TheShogunOfHarlem

 

Ah, there ARE other AI topics in this catagory of GTA V, and I don't see the point in calling the AI of RAGE/Euphoria engine gen era "dumb", so why does this relate to GTA V, do you think?

 

The last example could be a problem for some, but in my experience, AI is a very tough thing to evolve, it makes the game more lifelike without actual players, as in MP sections of game-play.

 

In Uncharted 1, in the courtyard filled with enemies, mid-game, you have them slowly encroach upon any position you try and hold, I'd say GTA could be argued to be missing that type of enemy AI, I found it very challenging, even with enemy AI starting out in the same known positions, they didn't stay in one spot. So, there's room for some ideas to improve, on second thought.

Example mission I'm thinking of;

Two times at least you play key geography coming and going, this is coming back to the same courtyard

 

 

 

 

 

Focusing on the old, out-dated AI for GTA V still has little bearing

 

Ones for some of the prior GTA do exist, case in point;

 

I know of the other AI topics. This one is to specifically discuss how some people would categorize Stupid AI. I refer to AI as dumb because the way I see it the AI doesn't provide much of a reasonable challenge at all. In GTA 4 I could hide in the same cover spots and mow down all the cops that come my way. Case in point:

6 star shootouts: Basic strategy is to find a position on the map or in a building that is a bottleneck and turn the cop AI's number advantage into a liability.

 

The Cluckin' Bell is the most well know bottleneck area (not my favorite) but a good example of what not to do when you are in a firefight. You never rush into bottleneck. You throw grenade/flashbangs, call in air/armor support and you force them out or destroy their cover.

 

Here is an example of the AI broadcasting their movements and making themselves easy targets.

 

 

 

 

The Uncharted series like many others games has all the problems of dumb AI that I listed with the exception explosive ordinance. The difficulty in Uncharted (more so the first over the others) has little to do with smart AI and has more to do with infinitely respawning AI. Another thing that makes that game more "difficult" is the lack of a crouch and prone toggle. You are basically a bullet sponge in many cases.

 

 

 

 

 

A lot of these, like the movements that get the AI killed, is just to make the game easier. If they stayed in cover the whole time, it would be frustrating trying to kill them...
I know. That's part of my problem: Why should games be that easy? As far as staying in cover being more frustrating, that's what grenades and RPGs are for. Frustrating gaming is a point of view. I prefer to be challenged by games so that when I succeed I feel that I got my moneys worth and a sense of accomplishment. People don't seem to have mentality anymore.

 

 

 

 

Edited by TheShogunOfHarlem
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The key with using those other topics is they relate to GTA V, hence they were posted in this section, but I can see that pointing out the problem areas is also worthy, at first I felt it was not related to V basically

 

How in the heck is AI infinitely respawning? The case in Uncharted I demoed with the video shootouts is very good AI for what is expected in game play, as you're spotted you hear "There he is"! And the sentries move in, they flank you which is what the programmers desired, they "Flush Him out"!

 

So, I think GTA lacks some of that in one regard

Edited by Slamman
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The difficulty factor could be improved by reducing the numbers of enemies to realistic levels whilst drastically improving their AI in the ways addressed. I may be alone, but I'd much rather fight 5 intelligent members of THE HUMAN RACE than 25 retarded robots who just walk round the corner into the barrel of my M4. In TLAD I had an epiphany during those annoying gang war sidemissions; to escape ridiculous odds I ended up blindly cliimbing a tower crane. Once at the top I realised I was out of sight- and therefore didn't exist to- the goons downstairs. So they climbed the ladder, one by one.

 

Bang. Bang. Bang Bang Bang. Mission passed.

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The difference I recall from Uncharted and GTA IV is that enemies hide and pop out to shoot. It'd be interesting if they were throwing grenades, for example, but closing in on your position within the Uncharted game varied by level of Skill Setting you chose, the Crushing level being the extreme

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TheShogunOfHarlem

 

The key with using those other topics is they relate to GTA V, hence they were posted in this section, but I can see that pointing out the problem areas is also worthy, at first I felt it was not related to V basically

 

How in the heck is AI infinitely respawning? The case in Uncharted I demoed with the video shootouts is very good AI for what is expected in game play, as you're spotted you hear "There he is"! And the sentries move in, they flank you which is what the programmers desired, they "Flush Him out"!

 

So, I think GTA lacks some of that in one regard

I'm not referring to those specific videos you mentioned but generally speaking. There has been numerous points throughout Uncharted 1 where AI unreasonably respawned after I cleared an area. All of a sudden I'm taking fire and I have to retreat.

 

Another reason why I call Uncharted AI stupid (albeit smarter than GTA) is for one reason. They don't retreat or stay suppressed. Neither do they use teamwork and try to suppress you. But then not many games have that level of sophisticated AI and I doubt we'll really see that anytime soon. (or at all)

 

 

The difference I recall from Uncharted and GTA IV is that enemies hide and pop out to shoot. It'd be interesting if they were throwing grenades, for example, but closing in on your position within the Uncharted game varied by level of Skill Setting you chose, the Crushing level being the extreme

 

As I said before retreating and regrouping (to form ambushes) would be an ideal tactic. Edited by TheShogunOfHarlem
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GTA IV AI isn't that bad at all. It's just poorly scripted for non-gangs. Try taking out gangs in a direct fight (not snipercamping) after completing lots of police gang missions.

 

They have:

- long range snipers taking you out from quite a distance, so don't get in the open

- grenade throwing guys, if you get close but have cover

- assault rifle guys, they are more stationary

- SMG guys storming at you when you're panicking

 

They

- seek cover

- compensate for stupid individual AI with group power where the AI makes a little bit more sense.

 

 

When fighting the SWAT in open areas they also surround you.

 

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Grand_Theft_Peanut

Stupid AI piss me off so much but dude when have u heard of a story when a crazed gunman was smoked out of cover using an RPG.... pretty sure the cops dont have access to military grade weapons or authorized to blow up chunks of buildings to take down one man. The equipment is fine all that needs changing is their tactics

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TheShogunOfHarlem

 

GTA IV AI isn't that bad at all. It's just poorly scripted for non-gangs. Try taking out gangs in a direct fight (not snipercamping) after completing lots of police gang missions.

 

They have:

- long range snipers taking you out from quite a distance, so don't get in the open

- grenade throwing guys, if you get close but have cover

- assault rifle guys, they are more stationary

- SMG guys storming at you when you're panicking

 

They

- seek cover

- compensate for stupid individual AI with group power where the AI makes a little bit more sense.

 

 

When fighting the SWAT in open areas they also surround you.

It's pretty bad. The fact that you have be a run and gunner to get a challenge out of fighting AI in GTA clearly shows that. The fact is that no one tactic should work 100% of the time in combat. Holding one position and whittling down the enemy's numbers is far more practical than running and gunning. However, hold one or more positions should allow the AI to either retreat/regroup if the advantage is your or to force you out of cover with cover busting tactics such as grenades and RPGs. (in conjunction with suppressing fire)

 

I keep hearing about how "Hard" The Drug Wars/Gang Wars missions got the more you play through them. I just don't see it. AI that use grenades should be able to use them competently. I have yet to be killed by an enemy grenade in a GTA game. The other AI types are easily dealt with. Any AI stupid enough to charge me pays for it and stationary targets can be killed with grenades, RPGs and rifle fire. As far as long range sniping is concerned, They give their positions away with their muzzle flashes and aren't that far away that I couldn't kill them with counter sniping or with an AR.

 

 

 

Stupid AI piss me off so much but dude when have u heard of a story when a crazed gunman was smoked out of cover using an RPG.... pretty sure the cops dont have access to military grade weapons or authorized to blow up chunks of buildings to take down one man. The equipment is fine all that needs changing is their tactics.
Your right. Cops or anybody in the Police and the US military (except Special Operations Forces) don't use RPGs. But if a lone gunman is armed to the teeth and is in a heavily entrenched position, how are you gonna get them out? Cops and other Law enforcement agencies do have tear gas and flashbangs and a few other tricks that could break cover. However a number of police forces have been militarizing their forces. NYC police are boasting about having .50 cal sniper rifles. (That's a reasonable cover buster for cops to have)

 

We are all assuming that the Military will be back in GTA 5 so they should have the ordinance to bust people from cover like AT-4 and Grenade launchers

Edited by TheShogunOfHarlem
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Every day i try to deal with Fifa's pathetic attempt at AI. Players don't know what a goal is, or how to shoot, they will run from the pen area to their own goal line cos they don't know what to do.

 

If GTA has AI that bad, the game will suck.

Even though IV had one track minded AI - enemies ran to you, took cover, never backtracking or being clever - it never bothered me. The game was more then playable.

 

RDR's AI didn't seem bad either. frther improvement would be cool - enemies knowing they're outgunned and trying to be clever - one shooting you while another sneaks off and tries to flank you etc.

 

TBH i don't expect V to have poor AI - but that is probably the hardest thing in gaming to create - you have to script everything.

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spaceeinstein

Before thinking how dumb AI can be, try comparing AI to the average human intelligence. I feel like the AI in most advanced games is much smarter than the average human intelligence. Many times I've seen players do stupid stuff that I would think a computer would be doing, like not being able to chase you properly and collide into obstacles constantly, or not plan their tactics properly and run into the middle of the street to shoot at you. About bottlenecks at dead ends, how would you think a human player would approach that situation if explosives were not available? You either wait forever until the enemy gets out of cover or run straight in with guns blazing, and running straight in is what I expect the average player would do. The main thing I think AI lacks right now is reaction time. When situations change very quickly and constantly, I've not seen AI manage to cope with that as quick as humans do.

Edited by spaceeinstein
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Senex Iunior

Dumb AI: anything from the III era, unfortunately. They can't reach you on roofs or send snipers after you even with four stars.

 

Smart AI: GTA IV's AI shocked me; it was extremely well-done, especially in giving a few cops shotguns.

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TheShogunOfHarlem
Before thinking how dumb AI can be, try comparing AI to the average human intelligence. I feel like the AI in most advanced games is much smarter than the average human intelligence. Many times I've seen players do stupid stuff that I would think a computer would be doing, like not being able to chase you properly and collide into obstacles constantly, or not plan their tactics properly and run into the middle of the street to shoot at you. About bottlenecks at dead ends, how would you think a human player would approach that situation if explosives were not available? You either wait forever until the enemy gets out of cover or run straight in with guns blazing, and running straight in is what I expect the average player would do. The main thing I think AI lacks right now is reaction time. When situations change very quickly and constantly, I've not seen AI manage to cope with that as quick as humans do.

I'm not sure there are than many morons doing incredibly stupid thing in games. (I hope) You would happen to have any youtube vids to show some good examples?

 

But to answer you? question about how to deal with a bottleneck w/o explosive force... There are a lot of variables that you would need to specify. What type of cover is the subject behind? Can you wait for close air or tank support? Do you have backup? Most rifle rounds can pierce through masonry thus limiting the effectiveness of cover and .50 Caliber (BMG) rounds are even more effective cover busters. Worst case scenario: Using breach and clear tactics are the only real option in conjunction with suppressing fire that might get the job done but you are gonna take casualties. This requires teamwork which none of the AI in GTA ever utilize at all.

 

 

 

 

Smart AI: GTA IV's AI shocked me; it was extremely well-done, especially in giving a few cops shotguns.
Really? Please watch some of the youtube vids I posted. It pretty easy to run circles around them.

 

Examples:

 

 

 

 

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Senex Iunior

Well, that's any AI, though- the GTA series especially because there are no difficulty settings. Rockstar has to find a balance between casual and involved gamers. In IV, at least, the AI was balanced correctly. Others may want more of a challenge, as sometimes I did too- but making the AI too intelligent would be a dire mistake.

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TheShogunOfHarlem

Gotta disagree. "Too smart" AI would be a godsend to single player gaming. Games are too easy but that is a matter of opinion.

 

I wouldn't say AI is the same all across the board, there are a few games out there that have reasonably intelligent AI. Halo had Ai that actually retreated and took cover fairly effectively. Some even used suicide tactics to try to kill you. MGS 4 and Killzone 2 had some decent AI as well. All games had AI way superior to GTA 4.

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Los Santos Pedestrian

The AI in every III-era game was hilariously stupid, but annoying as well. Especially cops - cops are 100% fearless and emotionless in every GTA. They will come up to you, no matter what the situation, and hit you with a baton, taking away your last amount of health when you don't expect it, or just shoot you. It's really dumb.

 

What even more stupid is how pedestrians react to gunfire. On a street, the people will just run in direction of the sidewalk, or just around any blockage, which can end up in the water where they hilariously drown by the dozens. In a car, if you fire a gun around them, the drivers will speed out of the area in any possible way, which is almost ALWAYS running into you. If I had a penny for every time a freaking out driver ran over me in GTA San Andreas, I'd have a better computer.

 

I'm just glad there's been some improvement in IV, but ultimately they still couldn't qualify as actually intelligent to me.

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spaceeinstein

 

There are a lot of variables that you would need to specify. What type of cover is the subject behind? Can you wait for close air or tank support? Do you have backup? Most rifle rounds can pierce through masonry thus limiting the effectiveness of cover and .50 Caliber (BMG) rounds are even more effective cover busters. Worst case scenario: Using breach and clear tactics are the only real option in conjunction with suppressing fire that might get the job done but you are gonna take casualties. This requires teamwork which none of the AI in GTA ever utilize at all.

There are not much variables when a lot of what you said isn't in the game. AI and humans also have to work within the limits imposed by a computer program; it's not real life. If 15 players with only guns is facing one other player hiding behind cover within a Cluckin Bell, how would you expect those 15 players to do?

 

Halo AI being better? I laugh at that. All the enemies have scripted spawn points and scripted reactions. Elites move side to side with their regenerative shields and Grunts sacrificing themselves don't seem smart at all. They don't fear you when you come blazing shooting rockets at them or mauling them with the giant guns at the back of your Warthog. They are scripted to retreat when the Elites are killed or when their numbers are reduced. If I applied your expectations of a smart AI to Halo, I would have expected Covenant dropships randomly dropping more troops when threat is perceived to have increased, or dropping more powerful weapons when the player is wielding a powerful one, or have Banshees shoot you out of cover when you are hiding in cover trying to regenerate your shield, or at least use that assassination sequence that had been touted for player use, and on and on. It's too easy to pick out the flaws of AI and the limitations imposed upon them in other games, just as easy as this game, so I don't understand how anyone can definitively say the AI of this game is drastically dumber than whatever games you are listing.

Edited by spaceeinstein
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  • 2 weeks later...
TheShogunOfHarlem
There are a lot of variables that you would need to specify. What type of cover is the subject behind? Can you wait for close air or tank support? Do you have backup? Most rifle rounds can pierce through masonry thus limiting the effectiveness of cover and .50 Caliber (BMG) rounds are even more effective cover busters. Worst case scenario: Using breach and clear tactics are the only real option in conjunction with suppressing fire that might get the job done but you are gonna take casualties. This requires teamwork which none of the AI in GTA ever utilize at all.

There are not much variables when a lot of what you said isn't in the game. AI and humans also have to work within the limits imposed by a computer program; it's not real life. If 15 players with only guns is facing one other player hiding behind cover within a Cluckin Bell, how would you expect those 15 players to do?

 

Halo AI being better? I laugh at that. All the enemies have scripted spawn points and scripted reactions. Elites move side to side with their regenerative shields and Grunts sacrificing themselves don't seem smart at all. They don't fear you when you come blazing shooting rockets at them or mauling them with the giant guns at the back of your Warthog. They are scripted to retreat when the Elites are killed or when their numbers are reduced. If I applied your expectations of a smart AI to Halo, I would have expected Covenant dropships randomly dropping more troops when threat is perceived to have increased, or dropping more powerful weapons when the player is wielding a powerful one, or have Banshees shoot you out of cover when you are hiding in cover trying to regenerate your shield, or at least use that assassination sequence that had been touted for player use, and on and on. It's too easy to pick out the flaws of AI and the limitations imposed upon them in other games, just as easy as this game, so I don't understand how anyone can definitively say the AI of this game is drastically dumber than whatever games you are listing.

True. A lot of my example aren't in many shooting games and I would hope that it would change. I'm not holding my breath since many developers seem to want to make easier games. That would mean the very last option of Breach and Clear as seen in these 2 videos.

 

 

 

I would think that improving team co-ordination in AI is the next big step in its improvement and some games (i.e. Mass Effect 3) claim that their AI will better co-ordinate attacks. It's not an impossibility it just takes time (sometimes lots of it) and care to do so. Again, tactics of human players would vary. Some people are lone wolf run 'n gun Rambos who would whine about how the person in a covered position is a "camper". Others my co-ordinate their tactic and would try to suppress the target and slowly advance on the enemy's position. Any casualties would be pulled out to safety.

 

 

 

When I give examples of "good AI" to me it isn't a HUGE compliment. I know that AI to one degree or another follow a script. (and AI in general is far from ever being truly autonomous) What I appreciate about Halo or Killzone is that there are types of behavior that are seldom seen in other games. Target suppression in Killzone 2 was a nice touch and seeing retreating enemies is a refreshing alternative to foolish charging. It's scripted and after numerous play throughs it can be predictable but it is much more challenging than GTA AI. (especially on Legendary in the case of Halo) I say challenging because typical AI in most games come at you with a vast assortment of weapons from pistols, SMGs, rifles, Grenades and Shoulder fired weapons. AI in GTA however are handicapped and are unable to use (or in the case of TBOGT competently) grenades, RPGs and other explosive ordinance. I would hope that this changes with 5.

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