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KilnerLUFC

Foreigner In My Own Country?!?!

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Typhus

 

Oh, and God help you if you disagree with leftist immigration policies because, as they'll be happy to tell you, it's 'karma' for what the British Empire did.

Well, you've expressed it terribly, but how does that not make perfect sense to you? Britain ruled Pakistan for centuries, it would be absolutely disgusting not to let them in the country. If you don't let people from former British possessions into the country, the message your sending is that they're good enough to contribute resources, wealth and their very lives in military service to the Crown but aren't worthy of actually living amongst us. Infact, I would wager the average Pakistani family have done just as much to create modern Britain has anyone who actually lives there.

My point isn't the Pakistanis. I admire those who come here and do well. But what I DON'T appreciate are those who feel that not only should we allow immigrants in but doing so is 'penance' for our past actions.

I will accept newcomers, I will wish them all well, I will not judge them on their skin colour or religion but I refuse to be led on a guilt trip by people who hate me for where I come from. Even though such people are actually from these parts too.

 

Do you understand what I mean, now?

 

I am sick of people defending illegal immigration by citing the history of the British Empire. I am sick of them trying to make me feel like a f*cking Nazi because I'm English. That's effectively what they're doing.

"You oppose illegal immigration? Well, it's nothing compared to what you did during the Raj/Boer War/Zulu War/Dissolution of the Monasteries!!!111!"

Right-o, but always keep in mind that Britain was an Empire when it fought the Nazis, it wasn't just people from the Isles dying on the battle field. Ergo, I feel the freedoms we enjoy in Great Britain and her colonial cousins (Canada, Australia etc.) should be accessible to everyone.

Bang on. I have never forgotten this. And I wish we reflected more upon the sacrifices of our brave Imperial troops - the Canadians, Australians, Indians, Africans. But as long as people acknowledge it was a shared sacrifice and in no way should let us be emotionally manipulated to accept behaviour we know to be wrong.

 

I still wish the Commonwealth was called the Empire though. It has a far nicer ring to it.

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Chorup

I don't want to derail this debate, however I have a few points I want to add. I've never been to the UK, so I'm going to use another European nation as an example. It is not uncommon that a government will attempt to erode the sovereignty and identity of its' own people, as ridiculous as that may seem. Macedonia, although I don't live there, I'm well enough informed to know what's going on. These laws that have banned English flags from certain vehicles are quite absurd, yet they pale in comparison to what is happening in Macedonia.

 

This is a government that is negotiating to alter the name of the country, and ultimately deface the history and identity of the Macedonian people. A government that considers its' own people as second-class citizens, and bows down to the demands of the Albanian minority. I'm all for giving minorities equal rights, provided that they respect the country and people. But as the Serbians found out, the Albanian minorities are plagued with extremists who have no regard for the country they live in. Although the situation is far different in Macedonia to that of Serbia. During the 1999 Kosovo War, Macedonia gave refuge to hundreds of thousands of Albanians from Kosovo, gave them citizenship and jobs. Perhaps it was a big mistake, to protect refugees from a war, only to be thanked with hatred and segregation. I could draw on a million examples to prove my point, but there is one recent government decision that proves my point beyond doubt. Recently, the Macedonian government awarded amnesty to a group of known Albanian terrorists who committed acts against humanity during the 2001 conflict. I mean, who awards amnesty to terrorists? The Ohrid framework agreement (which is a complete denial of Macedonian sovereignty) awards the Albanian minority with the best rights in the region. I guarantee you, that you will not find one other nation in Europe (including the UK) that positions terrorists from the 2001 conflict as the minister of defence, justice, etc. Nor would you find a suburb in England with Albanian flags that dwarf their surroundings.

 

There's a certain point where minorities are given too much, to the point where greed takes over. If minorities respect their country, work for the progression of their country, and immerse themselves into the prevalent culture, I consider them to share the interests of the majority. But who is to blame? In this case, it is the Macedonian government to blame. I guess in the case of England, it is also the government to blame. Speaking up isn't being racist, it's showing concern for something that could potentially morph into a serious threat. It's when people generalise such views to all minorities that expresses a misguided view. Sometimes the minorities project a voice far louder than the majority, and at the end of the day, that is the fault of the people. If the people don't actively speak up, they are essentially giving the green light for the government to erode their national sovereignty, in the name of protecting minorities and appeasing foreign interests (such as those of other nations, EU, etc). Again, if you don't believe me, have a quick look into what's currently happening in Macedonia.

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Clem Fandango
But should this access be treated with disrespect, by people wishing 'destruction' on the country that has given them a home? Should this access equal the decline of the pride of the country's symbol?

Well I'm sure a minority of immigrants are like that, but can you think of any reasonable mechanisms for dealing with it?

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myhame
- I hope your enjoy your ban, you pathetic waste of blood and organs - Edited by sivispacem

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KilnerLUFC
But should this access be treated with disrespect, by people wishing 'destruction' on the country that has given them a home? Should this access equal the decline of the pride of the country's symbol?

Well I'm sure a minority of immigrants are like that, but can you think of any reasonable mechanisms for dealing with it?

Surely in this day & age, a Government can show pride for their own country, but we never see this. Maybe some of the BNP's views are slightly extremist, but as I stated earlier in this topic, maybe they just get taken out of context. The main propositions I've heard from them is that they wish to close the border and get some pride back into the British person. Now, whether they believe British as to be White, am unsure on, but a Government who states this would be high in my view.

 

As I said, it's not the individual people in England who cause this problem, it's a Government who are too afraid of being called Racist. This leading to streets absolutely covered when it comes to Eid, yet little decoration when it comes to Christmas, and this is not me making sh*t up, I've witnessed this happen. Yes, as mentioned earlier, it's down to the individual councils, but surely they are getting influenced by the major Government.

 

I've yet to meet someone of a different ethnicity, who is offended by seeing an English flag being waved in the streets, or a Xmas tree in the town square.

 

 

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sivispacem

 

Surely in this day & age, a Government can show pride for their own country, but we never see this. Maybe some of the BNP's views are slightly extremist, but as I stated earlier in this topic, maybe they just get taken out of context. The main propositions I've heard from them is that they wish to close the border and get some pride back into the British person. Now, whether they believe British as to be White, am unsure on, but a Government who states this would be high in my view.

The BNP's party mainfesto, until 2009, specifically outlawed membership of individuals of non-Caucasian descent. That's overt and prejudicial racism, however you play it. The issue isn't so much that they are campaigning for reductions in migration- which they are, to an extreme- but the fact that the party is intrinsically racist. That's not anything being "taken out of context", that's their own line. Nowadays, the BNP have been forced by the legislative powers that be to change the wording of their party manifesto to solely focus on "British nationals", but the policies haven't changed. They're still overtly racist. If they weren't, how come members of the old Nazi-inspired, racist and anti-Semitic street gangs like Blood and Honour and Combat 18 make up a large proportion of their members?

 

Are you saying by proxy that "Britain should be white"- that's certainly how the last line of this paragraph comes across. If so, then all the allegations of racism that have been banded arond so far in the topic are proving themselves to be true. If you honestly believe that Britain should exclude minority groups, whether they are legal citizens and regardless of how long they've been residents of the country- which is certainly what you imply, then you are a racist, plain and simple. Could you please clarify what you were trying to say here?

 

 

As I said, it's not the individual people in England who cause this problem, it's a Government who are too afraid of being called Racist. This leading to streets absolutely covered when it comes to Eid, yet little decoration when it comes to Christmas, and this is not me making sh*t up, I've witnessed this happen. Yes, as mentioned earlier, it's down to the individual councils, but surely they are getting influenced by the major Government.

Sorry, but that's just simply untrue. If I look out of my window now I can see Christmas decorations. Everywhere I go are Christmas decorations. I was in a council-run public building earlier today (local swimming pool) and not only did they have Christmas decorations up, but they were playing Chrismas songs. Sorry to say it, but this "goverment killing Christmas because of fear of being labelled racist" idea that your trying to present is a complete work of fiction.

 

There's no national legislation that prevents people from decorating their houses how they want. Most councils have spent the last month or so assembling their christmas decorations. Over the last week, I've been in Southall and Edgware, two of the boroughs of London with the highest proportion of South Asian nationals and ethnicities, and they've got Christmas decorations everwhere you look. I honestly cannot see a single ounce of truth in the idea that public displays related to Christain festivals have been outlawed anywhere in the UK.

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KilnerLUFC

 

Surely in this day & age, a Government can show pride for their own country, but we never see this. Maybe some of the BNP's views are slightly extremist, but as I stated earlier in this topic, maybe they just get taken out of context. The main propositions I've heard from them is that they wish to close the border and get some pride back into the British person. Now, whether they believe British as to be White, am unsure on, but a Government who states this would be high in my view.

The BNP's party mainfesto, until 2009, specifically outlawed membership of individuals of non-Caucasian descent. That's overt and prejudicial racism, however you play it. The issue isn't so much that they are campaigning for reductions in migration- which they are, to an extreme- but the fact that the party is intrinsically racist. That's not anything being "taken out of context", that's their own line. Nowadays, the BNP have been forced by the legislative powers that be to change the wording of their party manifesto to solely focus on "British nationals", but the policies haven't changed. They're still overtly racist. If they weren't, how come members of the old Nazi-inspired, racist and anti-Semitic street gangs like Blood and Honour and Combat 18 make up a large proportion of their members?

 

Are you saying by proxy that "Britain should be white"- that's certainly how the last line of this paragraph comes across. If so, then all the allegations of racism that have been banded arond so far in the topic are proving themselves to be true. If you honestly believe that Britain should exclude minority groups, whether they are legal citizens and regardless of how long they've been residents of the country- which is certainly what you imply, then you are a racist, plain and simple. Could you please clarify what you were trying to say here?

 

Oh, sh*t. I obviously hadn't read that last line out to myself whilst writing it, and now looking at it, it came across totally wrong. What I was referring to was a Government who would concentrate on the flow of immigrants into this country, whether they be legal or illegal. Sorry about how that came across.

 

 

As I said, it's not the individual people in England who cause this problem, it's a Government who are too afraid of being called Racist. This leading to streets absolutely covered when it comes to Eid, yet little decoration when it comes to Christmas, and this is not me making sh*t up, I've witnessed this happen. Yes, as mentioned earlier, it's down to the individual councils, but surely they are getting influenced by the major Government.

Sorry, but that's just simply untrue. If I look out of my window now I can see Christmas decorations. Everywhere I go are Christmas decorations. I was in a council-run public building earlier today (local swimming pool) and not only did they have Christmas decorations up, but they were playing Chrismas songs. Sorry to say it, but this "goverment killing Christmas because of fear of being labelled racist" idea that your trying to present is a complete work of fiction.

 

Now, you yourself have previously stated that it's down to the individual councils when I first presented the argument to you. Now you're saying that I'm a a liar because you're town has decorations everywhere? The sh*tty thing is, they'd rather class it as a 'Health & Safety' issue, yet as I mentioned, no other ethnic event gets affected by this.

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sivispacem

 

Oh, sh*t. I obviously hadn't read that last line out to myself whilst writing it, and now looking at it, it came across totally wrong. What I was referring to was a Government who would concentrate on the flow of immigrants into this country, whether they be legal or illegal. Sorry about how that came across.

The thing is, immigration isn't seen by the vast majority of the electorate as an important topic. It constantly ranks at about 10th most important, way after things like economic policy, defence, law and order, and even Europe and local governance. It's only a very small minority who play the immigration issue to be of such astonishing importance- all the polls on the issue suggest that the vast majority don't even include it in their considerations when voting. True enough, there are some areas of the country where it's seen as a bigger issue than it is in others, but on the whole, the population couldn't give that much of a toss. There's good reason for that, too. I mean, is immigration "harmful", like some play it out to be? No it isn't- in fact, legal immigration is basically what's kept the secondary economy ticking over for the last two decades. Personally, I think that we need immigration, to compensate for the lack of domestic skills in some sectors of the economy of our country. Plus, having multi-lingual citizens in a globalised world is a huge bonus.

 

 

Oh, sh*t. I obviously hadn't read that last line out to myself whilst writing it, and now looking at it, it came across totally wrong. What I was referring to was a Government who would concentrate on the flow of immigrants into this country, whether they be legal or illegal. Sorry about how that came across.

Your quite right, I did say that local councils are far more scared of the views (or perceived views) of a fringe minority than central government is. I also said that the vast majority of these "political correctness gone mad" articles refer to local level politics. I also said that it's only on a council level where institutions have stopped using the word "Christmas"- and even then, in a small minority. None of those specifically says "local government is out to kill Christmas". You seem to imply that my mentioning of the former equates to the latter, which isn't the case. There are some councils who take a different stances on the issue- the same way that councils take different stances on issues like weekly bin collection, speed cameras, council tax and a whole raft of other issues. The thing is, aside from the local councillors who, due to a lack of understanding of many of the issues they are forced to deal with, generally delegate anything important to people more knowledgeable, everyone else in local institutions in an unelected bureaucrat. That's where many of these bizarre, costly and damaging policy ideas come from- the local level. Personally, I have very little faith in local government as a general institution- precisely because of the issues highlighted above. But the dichotomy is that decreasing powers for local institutions is actually far more unpopular than the actions of these local institutions themselves, even if it's the institutions producing local regulation who are causing more actual "harm" than national laws. Take, for instance, the public sector funding cuts. Some councils have been accused of intentionally ensuring that cuts impact the most vulnerable or the most politically mobile voters in a constituency, to try and drum up support against national government. It's the local institutions actually projecting the damage onto their citizens, and doing little to mitigate the harm, rather than national government who will traditionally get the blame for it.

 

I didn't intent to accuse you of lying, I merely meant that I've personally not seen any evidence to suggest that there's an institutionalised "war on Christmas" for reasons of perceived fear of racism. Now, whilst I don't doubt that there are some local government institutions who have made rash decisions in the belief that by doing so they will be seen more favourably in the eyes of minority groups in their local area, it's far from a general rule- more of an exception to a rule- and it's traditionally been local institutions who have been involved in this kind of activity who have born the brunt of local voter backlash. Not that that matters all that much, as the actual bureaucrats who make most of the more absurd policy ideas are unelected anyway.

Edited by sivispacem

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Dingdongs

Aren't the actions of local councils pretty irrelevant anyway in such a centralized, unitary government like that of the UK? Is there a way you can lobby your MP to go after the local government for taking those actions? In the US, we have a gigantic separation of powers between each level of government, but I know in Britain it's very unitary.

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sivispacem
Aren't the actions of local councils pretty irrelevant anyway in such a centralized, unitary government like that of the UK? Is there a way you can lobby your MP to go after the local government for taking those actions? In the US, we have a gigantic separation of powers between each level of government, but I know in Britain it's very unitary.

Local councils have very limited legislative powers, but they're the primary method of distribution for funding of local projects and local services, which gives them more power than their legislative position would suggest. There's no separation of powers as such, in that local government is entirely dependent on national government for their operation, but local government holds a monopoly of power in certain areas- for instance, council tax, which is a big topic of debate at the moment. For example, at a time where local council funding has been cut, many councils are considering raising council tax in order to compensate- which has been shown in the past to isolate voters from the current national administration as they hold the national government responsible for issues like taxation. Basically, the lack of understanding amongst the vast majority actually hands them more power than they should by all rights possess.

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KilnerLUFC
Oh, sh*t. I obviously hadn't read that last line out to myself whilst writing it, and now looking at it, it came across totally wrong. What I was referring to was a Government who would concentrate on the flow of immigrants into this country, whether they be legal or illegal. Sorry about how that came across.

The thing is, immigration isn't seen by the vast majority of the electorate as an important topic. It constantly ranks at about 10th most important, way after things like economic policy, defence, law and order, and even Europe and local governance. It's only a very small minority who play the immigration issue to be of such astonishing importance- all the polls on the issue suggest that the vast majority don't even include it in their considerations when voting. True enough, there are some areas of the country where it's seen as a bigger issue than it is in others, but on the whole, the population couldn't give that much of a toss. There's good reason for that, too. I mean, is immigration "harmful", like some play it out to be? No it isn't- in fact, legal immigration is basically what's kept the secondary economy ticking over for the last two decades. Personally, I think that we need immigration, to compensate for the lack of domestic skills in some sectors of the economy of our country. Plus, having multi-lingual citizens in a globalised world is a huge bonus.

The whole debate regarding filling jobs with skilled, migrant workers seems like a total contradiction to British Pride though, and kind of an easy cop-out. A Government who claim they want to up the standards of our education system, yet all the while filling the workplace with migrant workers; at the end of all this, what's going to be left when all these people who have had their education upped, go out to find work? This is no attack against the people themselves, since it's probably true that certain migrants hold higher skills than people of England, but surely this should be forcing the Government to concentrate on getting Britain working, rather than having two stories run side-by-side in the news: Migrant workers being brought in to fill skilled jobs, all the while banging on about unemployment levels throughout the youth.

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sivispacem
The whole debate regarding filling jobs with skilled, migrant workers seems like a total contradiction to British Pride though, and kind of an easy cop-out. A Government who claim they want to up the standards of our education system, yet all the while filling the workplace with migrant workers; at the end of all this, what's going to be left when all these people who have had their education upped, go out to find work? This is no attack against the people themselves, since it's probably true that certain migrants hold higher skills than people of England, but surely this should be forcing the Government to concentrate on getting Britain working, rather than having two stories run side-by-side in the news: Migrant workers being brought in to fill skilled jobs, all the while banging on about unemployment levels throughout the youth.

That's the unintended consequence of educational freedoms, though. The problem isn't that educational standards are too low- the opposite is true; most graduate schemes and low-level "specialist" roles are extremely heavily oversubscribed, which is one of primary reason that so many young people are without jobs- the problem is that too many people are training in areas that are of little or diminishing value to the economy. We're having a renaissance in skilled secondary roles- that is, skilled high-precision manufacturing, high-technology industry and mechanical and electrical engineering- and these roles are by and large unpopular with domestic students, thanks to the last decade being ruled by the tertiary sector of the economy. This renaissance has therefore been driven primarily by skilled immigration from elsewhere in Europe and from Asia, and without these roles being created and filled by migrants, then the economy would be in a considerably worse state. Remember, the last 15 year or so of the education system have actively biased individuals away from technical subjects and apprenticeships in favour of "soft" subjects that are no longer in as great a demand as they used to be. You've got to put nationalist pride and utter idealism to one side in favour of rational pragmatism, otherwise the nation would just end up in an even worse mire than it already is.

 

One of the primary aspects of a liberal, Western political system is that it doesn't force individuals into roles they have no interest in, instead it gives them the option to choose what they wish to study and specialise in. There's a demand for skilled migrants sheerly because large numbers have either chosen or been pushed towards studying and specialising in subjects that are currently of little economic relevance. That's changing- lots of additional drive for engineering and physics in particular amongst current students and graduates- but, whilst the economic system can create new jobs in a previously little-used sector of the economy in a matter of hours, it often takes decades for the educational system to adapt to these changes. One example is in the architecture and construction industry- foreign architectural practices have been setting up in the UK to provide their services at a rate far greater than British nationals are graduating from architectural degrees. It takes 7 years for a student to obtain their RIBA certification to practice as a licensed architect- what do you suggest that they do?

 

At the end of the day, businesses need to recruit the best talent they can, regardless of the origin of those individuals. It's bad for everyone if UK businesses remain uncompetitive in a global market because they are forced into accepting sub-standard candidates or reducing recruitment because they have to fill some kind of quota of British citizens- it would cause far more harm than it would benefit the country. Anyway, it's rather besides the point- as the graphs I've previously posted show, net migration has actually decreased since 2004.

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KilnerLUFC

Let me first apologise for the major bump of the topic, but there is a reason behind this. First of all, I feel the need to clear something up, especially regarding a certain member, and that's the debate about this topic been racist. I wish to point out that this topic was in no way meant to be racist, and I still stand by the fact that nothing I said was in any way racist, but instead, as the topic was intended, was meant to be about how British Pride seems to have dissapeared from this country. I still fail to see how stating that a country has lost it's pride is racist, and see it as the complete opposite.

 

I read that in a recent poll, more people would choose to fly the Union Jack over the St George's Flag, and the main reason behind this was that many people now associate the St George's Flag with the BNP etc. What a very sad thing to read, but I sense the reasoning is very true for our country.

 

Anyway, the reason for the bump is because we have the Queen's Jubilee coming up, and many papers are yet again ranting on about how we are all going to be closing our streets for the day and having massive street parties, with the whole neighbourhood coming out and taking part in the festivities...you know, just like we saw happen during the Royal Wedding. sarcasm.gif I'm not saying it's a stupid idea, but my point is, does anyone really care anymore? I know this is more to do with Royalty and whatnot, but it's still a major part of our country, and something that should all be proud of, surely?

 

Also read another article today where someone felt the same way that I do in this topic, that we seem to have lost the National Pride. We no longer take pride in the history of Country. The main point he got across was about mentioning also the lack of flags we have flying in this country...take a look at the USA, and you see a flag flying in every street, or every building etc...yet the only place I've seen a flag flying n public over here is on Town Halls or other similar buildings.

 

Anyway, here's hoping to get the debate going again, and hopefully without some idiot spoiling it by playing the racism card... dozingoff.gif

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AlexGTAGamer

Well call me old, call me boring, call me whatever, but I'm taking part in the Diamond Jubilee celebrations as just as you said, it's really a part of our heritage/history. That and the fact that my dad's true family bloodline is way more blue blooded than the Royal family. tounge.gif

 

And I still see St George flags flying in my area, even though it is a melting pot of cultures. There are flags in the windows and outside of some people's homes, there is one flying on a flagpole in the yard of a moving company just down the road, there is a large flag painted on the outside wall of the pub down the road, and every now and again a flag in our window (usually for events like St George's Day, the World Cup, etc.)

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Dingdongs

I can really understand why people are opposed to the Queen and the royalty and stuff, but those who claim economic reasons are really just not informed. I am part British and I think if I lived there I would enjoy the royal family, but that's because I'm a history buff and care about that stuff. Some people just view it as unnecessary pomp and circumstance, especially people who feel that the Royals haven't earned their places. I really enjoy it though and sometimes wish we had something like that here in the US.

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GTA_stu

Well technically the Royal family isn't even British, they're German amongst other things. Up until 1917 it was the house of Saxe-Coburg and Gotha, and they only changed it to Windsor because we were at war with the Germans. And Kaiser Wilhelm II was George V's first cousin and Queen victoria's grandson! So to get really royalist because it's a "British institution" is a bit absurd in some ways.

 

As for national pride, I find shoving flags everywhere to be a bit tactless and doesn't actually look that good. A solitary dignified flag on a pole on some government building is far better imo than thousands of those awful plastic bowler hats with the flag on it. There's plenty of British pride, it's just more understated and less in your face. In fact that in itself is something British, we're not bold and brash we're polite and pleasant. And on the odd occassion we do really go for it then we do tend to get it right, like the royal wedding. It's about quality not quantity.

 

I find this whole "we're not proud anymore" and "let's put the great back into Great Britain" horrendously cringe-worthy. Some people seem to have empire complex, they want to be living in 1912 again. Well this isn't 1912 and we're not a major power anymore, not compared to before. People need to get over it and move on. I feel there's still a desire for ethnic nationalism in some respects, hence the hatred of the EU and foreigners in general among a fair amount of people.

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Dingdongs

Part of the reason you're not a major power is your own doing though. Cutting the military to the point where the Falklands can't even be defended does that pretty well.

 

As for the royal family, it is a British institution. I know they aren't 100% pure bread English people but still.

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sivispacem
Also read another article today where someone felt the same way that I do in this topic, that we seem to have lost the National Pride. We no longer take pride in the history of Country. The main point he got across was about mentioning also the lack of flags we have flying in this country...take a look at the USA, and you see a flag flying in every street, or every building etc...yet the only place I've seen a flag flying n public over here is on Town Halls or other similar buildings.

As Stu has said, flags littered everywhere looks crass. Look at continental Europe- you try telling me the French aren't proud of their heritage, or the Italians or Spanish, yet they don't feel the need to litter every building with flags. As for the "national pride" thing, well it's all very subjective but I think it's still there, if very misguided. You can't turn round and tell me that the vast majority of people in this country aren't fiercely patriotic almost to the point of bigotry. All this discussion about how Britain was great and would be great again once we get rid of all the hoodies/immigrants/guardian readers/whatever else is the flavour of the week is incredibly and blindly patriotic. May I also ask where you were reading these articles? As I've said before, I tend to dip in and out of most of the broadsheet, internet and even berliner news formats, and I never come across this kind of discussion save for the often deluded or poorly spelled ramblings in the comment sections.

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Robinski
once we get rid of all the hoodies/immigrants/guardian readers/whatever else is the flavour of the week is incredibly and blindly patriotic.

Hold up, one of these is not like the others tounge.gif .

 

As for the whole flag debate, I think it looks trashy to have them everywhere. That's probably linked subconsciously to the sort of person who adorns themselves/their property in the cross or the Union Flag (Fun Fact: historically, it was only ever called the Jack when flown on a naval ship) though. In essence I'd definitely agree that the image of the flags have been tarnished by the xtreme right wing, but I had these views prior to their most recent popularity run.

 

Plus I'm not really a fan of either from a design standpoint but that's largely unrelated.

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KilnerLUFC
May I also ask where you were reading these articles?

There has been a reason for me not mentioning the source of my articles, due to the way people view this source, especially given the most recent circumstances...need any more clues? The thing is though, the majority of the time it may seem like they are banging on about it and making bogus figures up to delude people with, but many times these articles are backed up with other articles, or with the most recent article, a book that has been written on how Britain has lost pride in itself and it's culture.

 

I wasn't saying that every street and every building should have a St George's Flag adourned on it 24/7, but personally, I've seen a major lack of any public sign of the flag been flown anywhere, apart from on really special occasions. As mentioned, there does seem to be a split on which flag should be flown, with the St Georges Flag now more associated with Football and the BNP etc.

 

I also wanted to bump this topic some months back after watching a certain programme on C4, titled 'Make Bradford British'. The show itself was absolutely bollocks and seemed to fail on it's own premise of what it would achieve, but for something like this to be made in to a programme says it all. This is why I took offence by being branded a racist, simply for stating that I'm sick of foreigners getting treatment over British people. I've grown up in a city that's literally at boiling point 24/7, where we see segregated boroughs all based upon the colour of your skin, and racism is a major factor in this city, yet I've managed to stay away from this. I've mingled with plenty of Asians/Indians etc, and they're some of the most decent people I've known...even the Muslims I've spoke to. I'm not one of these narrow-minded people who believe that people of dark skin can't be British...they are. The main anger of this topic is aimed at the soft Government who try and brush anything to do with 'race' under the carpet, seeing them get what they want when they want, and this is where much of the narrow-minded anger in this country comes from.

 

The more they try and push this race issue away, the worse the situation gets. British people need to come first, and this country needs a Government who realises that.

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sivispacem

 

There has been a reason for me not mentioning the source of my articles, due to the way people view this source, especially given the most recent circumstances...need any more clues? The thing is though, the majority of the time it may seem like they are banging on about it and making bogus figures up to delude people with, but many times these articles are backed up with other articles, or with the most recent article, a book that has been written on how Britain has lost pride in itself and it's culture.

These are opinion pieces, though. They aren't news, they are reflections of subjective emotion and personal feeling. It's very difficult- nay, practically impossible- to quantify them in any meaningful way. I've never got the idea that Britain has "lost it's culture", primarily because I've always been of the view that Britain's culture has been a Smörgåsbord of different cultures since about the 18th century so it's certainly not a change that's occurred in anyone's lifetime. That's particularly apt in the case of England, as Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland (and for that matter some counties of England, such as Cornwall) do have quite clearly defined cultures but these are products of local, rather than national heritage. In fact, in the case of England, I challenge you to name five "English" cultural icons that are actually English and not a product of a small local sub-group.

 

 

I wasn't saying that every street and every building should have a St George's Flag adourned on it 24/7, but personally, I've seen a major lack of any public sign of the flag been flown anywhere, apart from on really special occasions. As mentioned, there does seem to be a split on which flag should be flown, with the St Georges Flag now more associated with Football and the BNP etc.

I do find it disappointing that far right groups have hijacked the use of the St Georges Cross but to me the idea of flying the flag contradicts the very British mentality of generally being quite discrete. I personally don't think that flying a flag means you love a country- some of the absolute nutters who worship the American flag are a perfect demonstration of this- but the thing is, there's nothing stopping you or anyone else from doing so. There's no nanny state, bearing down to come take your personal property away or arrest your family if you stick a Union Flag out of your window. People don't do it largely because they agree with Robinski and I that it's crass and makes you look lower-class and poorly educated. Those are personal views, and they reflect the British mentality far better than shouting from the rooftops ever would. We should be proud of not feeling the need to broadcast or radiate our magnificence at every opportunity.

 

 

I also wanted to bump this topic some months back after watching a certain programme on C4, titled 'Make Bradford British'. The show itself was absolutely bollocks and seemed to fail on it's own premise of what it would achieve, but for something like this to be made in to a programme says it all. This is why I took offence by being branded a racist, simply for stating that I'm sick of foreigners getting treatment over British people. I've grown up in a city that's literally at boiling point 24/7, where we see segregated boroughs all based upon the colour of your skin, and racism is a major factor in this city, yet I've managed to stay away from this. I've mingled with plenty of Asians/Indians etc, and they're some of the most decent people I've known...even the Muslims I've spoke to. I'm not one of these narrow-minded people who believe that people of dark skin can't be British...they are. The main anger of this topic is aimed at the soft Government who try and brush anything to do with 'race' under the carpet, seeing them get what they want when they want, and this is where much of the narrow-minded anger in this country comes from.

 

The more they try and push this race issue away, the worse the situation gets. British people need to come first, and this country needs a Government who realises that.

I can't speak of your personal experiences of racial issues, but your statements imply both that it's the government's job to ensure ethnic and religious cohesion, and that it's the fault of foreign nationals that segregation happens. Neither of these are true. Governments should (and usually) do what they can to promote racial and cultural harmony between different ethnic groups but whatever measures they put in place are largely undermined by a small but vocal minority who use foreign nationals and certain cultural groups as scapegoats for the problems of society (that more often than not are caused by the very same groups that are doing the scapegoating). A certain degree of segregation in society always happens as people naturally divide themselves along social and ethnic lines- and there's little we can do about that- but to suggest that it's the government's fault for pushing the race argument under the rug is entirely misleading. They aren't; it's just the radicals always hijack any legitimate discussion and turn into vitriol and hate, which ends up increasing hostility between societal groups. Just look at what's been happening in the aftermath of the Liverpool sex abuse scandal. What's more, I feel I must point out, yet again that you are using the same "sick of foreigners getting treatment over British people" argument which you failed to substantiate before. I remember asking several times for you to demonstrate exactly how foreign nationals in the UK get preferential treatment to British nationals; and to effectively define what a foreigner is (first generation immigrant, second, third, overseas study abroad student?) and I don't remember getting an answer. Whilst I won't go as far as to say that you are racist, I do fear that you've certainly been exposed to people who are because this view is certainly not one based on rationality, experience or evidence. British citizens get the same rights as each other regardless of any other contributing factor. EU citizens get the same rights as British citizens. Foreign nationals on visas get most, but not all of the rights of British nationals. Asylum seekers and those without visas or British nationality get almost nothing until they obtain nationality, which is ludicrously hard these days. I just don't think this argument has any basis in reality.

Edited by sivispacem

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Sanjeem

What I sure as hell hate is when you are enjoying the football match and supporting England wearing your England football shirt and some plonker comes along and tells you that you are not English of Origin. Fair play I'm not but I'm supporting the damn country and I respect all the British traditions and culture. That's the kind of racism that pisses me off the most. Maybe not racism actually but just ignorance.

 

However more on topic, I do believe that hate crimes such as burning the poppy by extremist Muslims should have bigger penalties. This isn't the most top notch example but if we burnt a religious book or symbol in a lot of these Sharia law occupied countries then the consequences for us would be a lot worse than what they are getting. I know we are a democratic country and that's what makes us in one aspect so great but I think the government should set a few more limits. We tend to be more civilized about these matters in comparison to other fundamentalist Islamic countries but when the British people see these kinds of disrespectful crimes being done and the govt not doing much about it, it can make people wonder where all the pride has gone.

 

Also another thing, is it wrong to think that Islamic culture isn't compatible with Western values? I mean for example I have many Muslim friends who obey all the rules of Islam but their fathers don't make their mothers wear the Burka and are generally more relaxed about that whole thing. But Personally I think the Burka should in fact be banned whether it's voluntary or not. For the simple reason that we can't see who is behind them and I'm sure they have caused trouble before. It's just that I feel like the British government sometimes doesn't put it;s foot down and says, No you can't or shouldn't do or be allowed to do so and so.

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sivispacem

 

However more on topic, I do believe that hate crimes such as burning the poppy by extremist Muslims should have bigger penalties.

They aren't hate-crimes. It's technically legal and so it should be, as should any other display of opinion which doesn't directly attack another person. If you start punishing people for partaking in the freedom to express themselves, then you might as well just close down the borders and call yourself North-sea Korea. I don't like it, nor do you or many other people for that matter but the best thing to do is not to demonstrate anger or indigence, as that just shows the perpetrators that they've got under your skin.

 

 

This isn't the most top notch example but if we burnt a religious book or symbol in a lot of these Sharia law occupied countries then the consequences for us would be a lot worse than what they are getting.

That's because we have a refined, modern culture with a degree of political freedom. If you start banning people from burning poppies then what next? Swastikas are offensive too, so lets ban them. Oh, and some people get offended by five point stars, so they are gone too. How about images of the devil in marketing? It's very hard to draw a proper "line" because you can't really legislate to protect a symbol.

 

 

I know we are a democratic country and that's what makes us in one aspect so great but I think the government should set a few more limits.

Why? Can you explain to me why you think its so abhorrent for people to basically express their opinions just because you don't agree with them?

 

 

We tend to be more civilized about these matters in comparison to other fundamentalist Islamic countries

That's because we are. You should be celebrating it, not suggesting we become more barbaric to deal with what are relatively minor instances.

 

 

Also another thing, is it wrong to think that Islamic culture isn't compatible with Western values?

Yes, principally because it is compatible. But in the same way that fundamental Christianity of the kind that revels in genocide and other unpleasantness is incompatible with Western society, extremist interpretations of Islam aren't compatible either. You thankfully avoid the typical trap of dismissing all Islam as fundamentalist and inherently violent.

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Sanjeem

Thanks for answering many of my questions and even showing me how some of these things work. I suppose you are right about the fact that because they are not physically harming anybody directly that they cannot be punished more. Sorry I get confused sometimes when I think something is what it is, obviously burning a poppy isn't a hate crime after looking at the definition. Never the less it still fuels hate from the perpetrators and the defendants. I also agree with you how if one symbol was banned then something like a Swastika would have to be banned as well and really people would just start complaining until everything is banned and the cycle continues.

 

I never really pictured living in a democratic, multi-cultural country being so controversial. It doesn't really affect me, I still live my life fine and am happy with my situation. However I think that a lot of people are just simply xenophobic and probably are by human nature. There has to be some way to tackle these phobias though. In the media things get horribly messed up and messages are changed to serve one side's opinion, it's ludicrous.

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KaRzY6

I 100% agree with you. Multi-cultural is a failure and will never work. I bet if you went over to a muslim country and burn their flag, you would probably be stoned. Governments of the western countries are stupid and need to change things before it's too late.

 

Btw, I'm really sorry to those who are muslim. I'm not a racist, I'm just thinking of reality.

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sivispacem

 

Multi-cultural is a failure and will never work.

Explain please? As you evidently have the power of omniscience and therefore can see the future fate of society, can you go into some more detail about this? Its absurd. Around the world there are dozens of nations and societies where religious and cultural pluralism work to great extents. Turkey is a pretty good example of that, now that aggression towards the Kurds has died down so considerably. Pre-civil-war Lebanon is another good example, and Scandinavia certainly used to be. Many of the Eastern Arab-majority countries are culturally diverse too. Most Western countries have got it "about right" save for the militant white minority who stoke up racial tension, alleging that minority groups are responsible for the ills of society that more often than not are committed by the accuser, which has grown in the last decade thanks to ignorance, latent xenophobia and paranoid stupidity.

 

These in particular amused me-

 

 

I bet if you went over to a muslim country and burn their flag, you would probably be stoned.

 

Governments of the western countries are stupid and need to change things before it's too late.

Oh, Western countries are so much better than despotic regimes, lets act like them. Besides, in most of the Arab world, citizens would not give one hoot whether you burned a national flag. National identity in Islamic countries exists really only in the minds of the Western world who find it far easier

 

 

I'm not a racist, I'm just thinking of reality.

I'm not quite sure who you are "agreeing 100%" with, unless its the OP. The majority of posters in this thread who have gone to the worthwhile lengths of making proper cases to support their arguments have been arguing against the idea that multiculturalism has or will fail, and those of us who concede that it certainly hasn't improved in the West in the last decade or two lay the blame for that solely at the feet of not the ethnic minorities but majority-demographic radicals who create many of the social problems and ethnic tensions in the first place.

 

Also, go read the rules of this sub-forum before you post again.

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Icarus
Multi-cultural is a failure and will never work.

I refute your argument with my beloved country: Canada.

 

I like to think of Canada as being very multicultural and encouraging to newcomers who want to start fresh here. While we always ask people to at least take on the fundamentals of Canadian values, we also encourage people to keep their heritage alive and never abandon it so that we can have a mosaic of cultures. In our history (albeit a relatively short one compared to other cultures), the only major clash we've had is with Quebec, although that one is a lot more historically complex and we'd need another topic to discuss it.

 

I always laugh when you hear some moron in Canada rant about foreigners, getting pissed off and berating immigrants and saying things like, "They should go back to their own country," not realizing that the majority of people in Canada are from an immigrant background, unless you're First Nations (Native Canadians), of course. Then again, Canada is an immigrant nation.

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Dingdongs

The US is an even greater example than Canada. Though I admit Canadians are a little more friendly and welcoming to immigrants than some Americans, as a whole this country is quite multicultural.

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Icarus
The US is an even greater example than Canada. Though I admit Canadians are a little more friendly and welcoming to immigrants than some Americans, as a whole this country is quite multicultural.

We're definitely the major immigrant nations of North America.

 

I remember when I did a sociology class in first year, we were talking about that and Canada was referred to as the mosaic (hence why I used the term) since we encouraged people to keep their cultural identity, whereas the United States was referred to as the melting pot as they expected assimilation.

 

tounge.gif

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sivispacem
We're definitely the major immigrant nations of North America.

 

I remember when I did a sociology class in first year, we were talking about that and Canada was referred to as the mosaic (hence why I used the term) since we encouraged people to keep their cultural identity, whereas the United States was referred to as the melting pot as they expected assimilation.

Which leads me to the next question- which is the "better" model if there is such a thing? Do you get more social equality by encouraging integration or by allowing different ethnic, religious and social groups to decide on individual basis whether they want to integrate or coexist?

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