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KilnerLUFC

Foreigner In My Own Country?!?!

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sivispacem

 

I was unaware The Guardian had such a poor reputation. Along with The Times it is just about the only English paper worth a damn.

I have gotten some slack for reading the Times myself, people say it's an old mans paper.

Depends which side you take. If you're a Mail reader, or for that matter a Mirror reader then you're going to hate the Guardian just because it's centrist and vaguely progressive. I don't dislike it per se, but I don't read it- Times or Telegraph for me, thanks. Times for reporting, Telegraph for business section and commentary. I lost a lot of respect for the Guardian once they started taking George Galloway's insane, pro-Autocracy ramblings as part of their "comment is free" section. Seriously, any individual who claims that homosexuals have rights in Iran whilst their lifeless corpses swing from construction cranes shouldn't be allowed to present their views in public.

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Robinski

 

Seen as you've spent your entire time in this topic playing the stereotype game, is that not basically a personification of the stereotyped "guardian reader".

I was unaware The Guardian had such a poor reputation. Along with The Times it is just about the only English paper worth a damn.

I have gotten some slack for reading the Times myself, people say it's an old mans paper.

"Stereotyped" is the key word. Much like the stereotyped Sun reader is a breast-crazed, working-class builder who cares for nothing other than funny animal or sex stories and football, which isn't really true.

 

The Times is stereotyped as an old man's paper because of the authoritarian, paternalist slant. Something that's often typical of your older generations. Not to mention the writing and reporting styles are much more formal and traditionalist. I'd say it and the Guardian are the best broadsheets, each serving its own end of the political and style spectrum.

 

I think I might be a bit off-topic here though.

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Dingdongs

Look, as silvis said, I'm not a British citizen, I have attachment to Britain through relatives, have been there, but I'm not going to claim I am well in tune with daily life there. I hear from my British relatives and their friends about how "the f*cking pakis should be lined up and shot" and I'm not shocked to see people spewing the same bullsh*t here. We have problems just like that in the US. We have a border with a developing country where people can barely find work and can't feel safe in many towns because drug lords have scared them into submission, the federal police are corrupt out of their minds, and the army is the only somewhat pure institution (but it's an army). I live in NY and DC. Where I'm from, you really won't hear much about "spics" and "f*cking mexicans" or "f*cking juans and joses" (the cleaner one) because not only are we more liberal up here, we don't really deal with illegal aliens like the south does (that's not to say I can't go to my 7/11 and find 20-30 immigrants in the parking lot looking for work). In Mexico, going to "el norte" is the best way for them to make money for their families in my cases. It's unfortunate but true. We have people just like the people in this thread who are ignorant and bigoted toward them. If you go to the south here in the US, which I do a lot since I go to school in DC... pretty much anything past Virginia and you see assholes out there on the street having signs up in spanglish (KICKOUTO LOS MEXICANOS, I've seen), screaming to remove the dirty spics, etc. I am not unacquainted with xenophobia and bigotry, so to those who are saying I shouldn't contribute in this thread, you're wrong. Thankfully, here in the US, we've yet to hear people demand for the "real American people" to be welcome only (though it may not be far off, they say Europe is ahead of us on everything don't they?) out en masse. It really sickens me when I read things from British people, hear it from relatives/family friends/whoever else that the Pakis don't work (funny enough my grandfather's cousin from Manchester and his wife are totally accepting of Indians, they have no problem with anyone but the Pakis, further showing the bullsh*t the media teaches you over there), they hate freedom, they won't assimilate, etc. That's just a load of garbage, and it reminds me of when I go down south and listen to the neoconfederate, white nationalist bullsh*t (though it isn't as bad as "only REAL british people are allowed, it is equal to the level of "kick out the pakis, when they say "kick out the wetbacks (if it's an older gent, spics if younger than 40 usually)" so prevalent down there. The fact that people in Britain take it to the next step with ardent, nativist nationalistic and hateful rhetoric, it gets to me. The media is notorious for selling papers and getting ratings on TV by coming up with bullsh*t. I suggest you do some research on your own. I know if I didn't do any on my own, I'd believe that "the spics" are taking American jobs (what happened to everyone being American?), that the Mexicans get here by "hopping" the border (no one comes legally and is f*cked by our retarded immigration system and can't extend their stay or get full citizenship, I guess) or that, especially, the hispanics will replace white as the dominant nationality by 2020.

Edited by Irviding

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Clem Fandango
Look, as silvis said, I'm not a British citizen, I have attachment to Britain through relatives, have been there, but I'm not going to claim I am well in tune with daily life there. I hear from my British relatives and their friends about how "the f*cking pakis should be lined up and shot" and I'm not shocked to see people spewing the same bullsh*t here. We have problems just like that in the US. We have a border with a developing country where people can barely find work and can't feel safe in many towns because drug lords have scared them into submission, the federal police are corrupt out of their minds, and the army is the only somewhat pure institution (but it's an army). I live in NY and DC. Where I'm from, you really won't hear much about "spics" and "f*cking mexicans" or "f*cking juans and joses" (the cleaner one) because not only are we more liberal up here, we don't really deal with illegal aliens like the south does (that's not to say I can't go to my 7/11 and find 20-30 immigrants in the parking lot looking for work). In Mexico, going to "el norte" is the best way for them to make money for their families in my cases. It's unfortunate but true. We have people just like the people in this thread who are ignorant and bigoted toward them. If you go to the south here in the US, which I do a lot since I go to school in DC... pretty much anything past Virginia and you see assholes out there on the street having signs up in spanglish (KICKOUTO LOS MEXICANOS, I've seen), screaming to remove the dirty spics, etc. I am not unacquainted with xenophobia and bigotry, so to those who are saying I shouldn't contribute in this thread, you're wrong. Thankfully, here in the US, we've yet to hear people demand for the "real American people" to be welcome only (though it may not be far off, they say Europe is ahead of us on everything don't they?) out en masse. It really sickens me when I read things from British people, hear it from relatives/family friends/whoever else that the Pakis don't work (funny enough my grandfather's cousin from Manchester and his wife are totally accepting of Indians, they have no problem with anyone but the Pakis, further showing the bullsh*t the media teaches you over there), they hate freedom, they won't assimilate, etc. That's just a load of garbage, and it reminds me of when I go down south and listen to the neoconfederate, white nationalist bullsh*t (though it isn't as bad as "only REAL british people are allowed, it is equal to the level of "kick out the pakis, when they say "kick out the wetbacks (if it's an older gent, spics if younger than 40 usually)" so prevalent down there. The fact that people in Britain take it to the next step with ardent, nativist nationalistic and hateful rhetoric, it gets to me. The media is notorious for selling papers and getting ratings on TV by coming up with bullsh*t. I suggest you do some research on your own. I know if I didn't do any on my own, I'd believe that "the spics" are taking American jobs (what happened to everyone being American?), that the Mexicans get here by "hopping" the border (no one comes legally and is f*cked by our retarded immigration system and can't extend their stay or get full citizenship, I guess) or that, especially, the hispanics will replace white as the dominant nationality by 2020.

Britain is not a racist country, please don't illustrate it as such. The sentiments you are talking about belong to a minority, and are only actually supported by a very fringe minority.

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sivispacem
Britain is not a racist country, please don't illustrate it as such. The sentiments you are talking about belong to a minority, and are only actually supported by a very fringe minority.

He's not claiming that Britain is intrinsically racist, though.

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Dingdongs
Look, as silvis said, I'm not a British citizen, I have attachment to Britain through relatives, have been there, but I'm not going to claim I am well in tune with daily life there. I hear from my British relatives and their friends about how "the f*cking pakis should be lined up and shot" and I'm not shocked to see people spewing the same bullsh*t here. We have problems just like that in the US. We have a border with a developing country where people can barely find work and can't feel safe in many towns because drug lords have scared them into submission, the federal police are corrupt out of their minds, and the army is the only somewhat pure institution (but it's an army). I live in NY and DC. Where I'm from, you really won't hear much about "spics" and "f*cking mexicans" or "f*cking juans and joses" (the cleaner one) because not only are we more liberal up here, we don't really deal with illegal aliens like the south does (that's not to say I can't go to my 7/11 and find 20-30 immigrants in the parking lot looking for work). In Mexico, going to "el norte" is the best way for them to make money for their families in my cases. It's unfortunate but true. We have people just like the people in this thread who are ignorant and bigoted toward them. If you go to the south here in the US, which I do a lot since I go to school in DC... pretty much anything past Virginia and you see assholes out there on the street having signs up in spanglish (KICKOUTO LOS MEXICANOS, I've seen), screaming to remove the dirty spics, etc. I am not unacquainted with xenophobia and bigotry, so to those who are saying I shouldn't contribute in this thread, you're wrong. Thankfully, here in the US, we've yet to hear people demand for the "real American people" to be welcome only (though it may not be far off, they say Europe is ahead of us on everything don't they?) out en masse. It really sickens me when I read things from British people, hear it from relatives/family friends/whoever else that the Pakis don't work (funny enough my grandfather's cousin from Manchester and his wife are totally accepting of Indians, they have no problem with anyone but the Pakis, further showing the bullsh*t the media teaches you over there), they hate freedom, they won't assimilate, etc. That's just a load of garbage, and it reminds me of when I go down south and listen to the neoconfederate, white nationalist bullsh*t (though it isn't as bad as "only REAL british people are allowed, it is equal to the level of "kick out the pakis, when they say "kick out the wetbacks (if it's an older gent, spics if younger than 40 usually)" so prevalent down there. The fact that people in Britain take it to the next step with ardent, nativist nationalistic and hateful rhetoric, it gets to me. The media is notorious for selling papers and getting ratings on TV by coming up with bullsh*t. I suggest you do some research on your own. I know if I didn't do any on my own, I'd believe that "the spics" are taking American jobs (what happened to everyone being American?), that the Mexicans get here by "hopping" the border (no one comes legally and is f*cked by our retarded immigration system and can't extend their stay or get full citizenship, I guess) or that, especially, the hispanics will replace white as the dominant nationality by 2020.

Britain is not a racist country, please don't illustrate it as such. The sentiments you are talking about belong to a minority, and are only actually supported by a very fringe minority.

I'm sorry, but blaming all the country's problems on a small ethnic minority is, infact, racism. Plenty of people in this thread are doing it, and plenty of Brits do infact do that. Running around ranting that you want a "real British person" is racist no matter how you explain it.

 

The Eight Steps of Genocide:

 

http://www.genocidewatch.org/genocide/8stagesofgenocide.html

 

Check it out on there. You'll find that Pakistanis and other South Asians in Britain are already at stage 3 of that list.

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Der_Don
and plenty of Brits do infact do that

How do you know??

Btw, I bet America has more problems with racism than Europe.

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GTA_stu

@Irviding I think it might be hard for you to judge the underlying sentiment of most British people when you live over in the US. Also, I think there's a slight difference between US racism and British racism. In my view at least, it seems like the majority of British people who hold racist views don't have some sort of white supremacist dream. They have ignorant beliefs that "they're taking our jobs" and "sponging off our benefits system" when it's really not the case. They don't necessarily have prejudices against skin colour, (although I'm sure many do) they just hate all foreigners as they hold the view that "ordinary" British people are getting the short straw.

 

American racism though, seems to be more geared towards the prejudice against skin colour and ethnicity. There is a lot more hate simply for the colour of a persons skin. There is also the "they come over here and take our jobs" element, especially against Mexicans. But I think overall, the racial tensions are greater in the US than in the UK.

 

The fact you seem to think we single out the "paki's" to a much larger extent than we do is also telling of your lack of knowledge on British culture. In my opnion people don't single out the Pakistani's, they (the racist ones) just call everyone of descent from the Indian sub-continent region a Paki. This is shown by the fact that a bindi (red spot between the eyebrows) is sometimes derogatarily called a "paki spot" even though it is worn throughout the South Asian area in pretty much everywhere apart from Pakistan.

 

 

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Typhus

I don't think people from Pakistan are a good fit here. Their nation is not sufficiently secular enough. Wasn't Pakistan founded on the idea that Muslims were so special that they simply couldn't live next to Hindu's?

The fact is, that their whole nation is riddled with barbarism, corruption and stupidity. Look at the assassination of Bhutto, look how the Taliban is actively trying to invade, look at the way in which the West simply has no idea if they are friend or foe. We can't trust them, not really.

I am proud of the people from Pakistan who came here and made something of themselves, set up businesses and contributed to this country.

But I maintain very firmly that we must only allow immigrants from nations which are secular democracies. We should never be expected to tolerate radical Jihadists actively plotting against the very nation which offered them its generosity, compassion and acceptance.

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KilnerLUFC
Look, as silvis said, I'm not a British citizen, I have attachment to Britain through relatives, have been there, but I'm not going to claim I am well in tune with daily life there. I hear from my British relatives and their friends about how "the f*cking pakis should be lined up and shot" and I'm not shocked to see people spewing the same bullsh*t here. We have problems just like that in the US. We have a border with a developing country where people can barely find work and can't feel safe in many towns because drug lords have scared them into submission, the federal police are corrupt out of their minds, and the army is the only somewhat pure institution (but it's an army). I live in NY and DC. Where I'm from, you really won't hear much about "spics" and "f*cking mexicans" or "f*cking juans and joses" (the cleaner one) because not only are we more liberal up here, we don't really deal with illegal aliens like the south does (that's not to say I can't go to my 7/11 and find 20-30 immigrants in the parking lot looking for work). In Mexico, going to "el norte" is the best way for them to make money for their families in my cases. It's unfortunate but true. We have people just like the people in this thread who are ignorant and bigoted toward them. If you go to the south here in the US, which I do a lot since I go to school in DC... pretty much anything past Virginia and you see assholes out there on the street having signs up in spanglish (KICKOUTO LOS MEXICANOS, I've seen), screaming to remove the dirty spics, etc. I am not unacquainted with xenophobia and bigotry, so to those who are saying I shouldn't contribute in this thread, you're wrong. Thankfully, here in the US, we've yet to hear people demand for the "real American people" to be welcome only (though it may not be far off, they say Europe is ahead of us on everything don't they?) out en masse. It really sickens me when I read things from British people, hear it from relatives/family friends/whoever else that the Pakis don't work (funny enough my grandfather's cousin from Manchester and his wife are totally accepting of Indians, they have no problem with anyone but the Pakis, further showing the bullsh*t the media teaches you over there), they hate freedom, they won't assimilate, etc. That's just a load of garbage, and it reminds me of when I go down south and listen to the neoconfederate, white nationalist bullsh*t (though it isn't as bad as "only REAL british people are allowed, it is equal to the level of "kick out the pakis, when they say "kick out the wetbacks (if it's an older gent, spics if younger than 40 usually)" so prevalent down there. The fact that people in Britain take it to the next step with ardent, nativist nationalistic and hateful rhetoric, it gets to me. The media is notorious for selling papers and getting ratings on TV by coming up with bullsh*t. I suggest you do some research on your own. I know if I didn't do any on my own, I'd believe that "the spics" are taking American jobs (what happened to everyone being American?), that the Mexicans get here by "hopping" the border (no one comes legally and is f*cked by our retarded immigration system and can't extend their stay or get full citizenship, I guess) or that, especially, the hispanics will replace white as the dominant nationality by 2020.

Britain is not a racist country, please don't illustrate it as such. The sentiments you are talking about belong to a minority, and are only actually supported by a very fringe minority.

I'm sorry, but blaming all the country's problems on a small ethnic minority is, infact, racism. Plenty of people in this thread are doing it, and plenty of Brits do infact do that. Running around ranting that you want a "real British person" is racist no matter how you explain it.

 

The Eight Steps of Genocide:

 

http://www.genocidewatch.org/genocide/8stagesofgenocide.html

 

Check it out on there. You'll find that Pakistanis and other South Asians in Britain are already at stage 3 of that list.

Maybe other members in this topic have done just that, but since my very first post, this topic started out as an attack against the Government, and how they are so afraid of being branded racist, that British values & tradition has gone downhill. I have no problem with people of different ethnic backgrounds, and this has absolutely nothing to do with the topic at hand. As I stated in previous posts, you come in here and throw accusations around as if you know the current situation, yet all you are doing is expressing your lack of knowledge in this subject.

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sivispacem
But I maintain very firmly that we must only allow immigrants from nations which are secular democracies. We should never be expected to tolerate radical Jihadists actively plotting against the very nation which offered them its generosity, compassion and acceptance.

You see, I understand where you are coming from, but the simple fact of the matter is that the majority of Pakistanis in the UK- Kashmiris- are diametrically opposed to radical Islamism. I've said before and I'll say it again- the majority of Muslims who are convicted of terrorist offences, inciting violence and hatred et cetera are actually white British converts (or "reverts" as the MCB like to rather presumptuously call them) or individuals of African and Caribbean descent.

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Dingdongs
Look, as silvis said, I'm not a British citizen, I have attachment to Britain through relatives, have been there, but I'm not going to claim I am well in tune with daily life there. I hear from my British relatives and their friends about how "the f*cking pakis should be lined up and shot" and I'm not shocked to see people spewing the same bullsh*t here. We have problems just like that in the US. We have a border with a developing country where people can barely find work and can't feel safe in many towns because drug lords have scared them into submission, the federal police are corrupt out of their minds, and the army is the only somewhat pure institution (but it's an army). I live in NY and DC. Where I'm from, you really won't hear much about "spics" and "f*cking mexicans" or "f*cking juans and joses" (the cleaner one) because not only are we more liberal up here, we don't really deal with illegal aliens like the south does (that's not to say I can't go to my 7/11 and find 20-30 immigrants in the parking lot looking for work). In Mexico, going to "el norte" is the best way for them to make money for their families in my cases. It's unfortunate but true. We have people just like the people in this thread who are ignorant and bigoted toward them. If you go to the south here in the US, which I do a lot since I go to school in DC... pretty much anything past Virginia and you see assholes out there on the street having signs up in spanglish (KICKOUTO LOS MEXICANOS, I've seen), screaming to remove the dirty spics, etc. I am not unacquainted with xenophobia and bigotry, so to those who are saying I shouldn't contribute in this thread, you're wrong. Thankfully, here in the US, we've yet to hear people demand for the "real American people" to be welcome only (though it may not be far off, they say Europe is ahead of us on everything don't they?) out en masse. It really sickens me when I read things from British people, hear it from relatives/family friends/whoever else that the Pakis don't work (funny enough my grandfather's cousin from Manchester and his wife are totally accepting of Indians, they have no problem with anyone but the Pakis, further showing the bullsh*t the media teaches you over there), they hate freedom, they won't assimilate, etc. That's just a load of garbage, and it reminds me of when I go down south and listen to the neoconfederate, white nationalist bullsh*t (though it isn't as bad as "only REAL british people are allowed, it is equal to the level of "kick out the pakis, when they say "kick out the wetbacks (if it's an older gent, spics if younger than 40 usually)" so prevalent down there. The fact that people in Britain take it to the next step with ardent, nativist nationalistic and hateful rhetoric, it gets to me. The media is notorious for selling papers and getting ratings on TV by coming up with bullsh*t. I suggest you do some research on your own. I know if I didn't do any on my own, I'd believe that "the spics" are taking American jobs (what happened to everyone being American?), that the Mexicans get here by "hopping" the border (no one comes legally and is f*cked by our retarded immigration system and can't extend their stay or get full citizenship, I guess) or that, especially, the hispanics will replace white as the dominant nationality by 2020.

Britain is not a racist country, please don't illustrate it as such. The sentiments you are talking about belong to a minority, and are only actually supported by a very fringe minority.

I'm sorry, but blaming all the country's problems on a small ethnic minority is, infact, racism. Plenty of people in this thread are doing it, and plenty of Brits do infact do that. Running around ranting that you want a "real British person" is racist no matter how you explain it.

 

The Eight Steps of Genocide:

 

http://www.genocidewatch.org/genocide/8stagesofgenocide.html

 

Check it out on there. You'll find that Pakistanis and other South Asians in Britain are already at stage 3 of that list.

Maybe other members in this topic have done just that, but since my very first post, this topic started out as an attack against the Government, and how they are so afraid of being branded racist, that British values & tradition has gone downhill. I have no problem with people of different ethnic backgrounds, and this has absolutely nothing to do with the topic at hand. As I stated in previous posts, you come in here and throw accusations around as if you know the current situation, yet all you are doing is expressing your lack of knowledge in this subject.

I throw accusations when I hear nativist rhetoric. Look around in this thread. Your own fellow Brit agrees with me.

 

 

Irviding I think it might be hard for you to judge the underlying sentiment of most British people when you live over in the US. Also, I think there's a slight difference between US racism and British racism. In my view at least, it seems like the majority of British people who hold racist views don't have some sort of white supremacist dream. They have ignorant beliefs that "they're taking our jobs" and "sponging off our benefits system" when it's really not the case. They don't necessarily have prejudices against skin colour, (although I'm sure many do) they just hate all foreigners as they hold the view that "ordinary" British people are getting the short straw.

 

American racism though, seems to be more geared towards the prejudice against skin colour and ethnicity. There is a lot more hate simply for the colour of a persons skin. There is also the "they come over here and take our jobs" element, especially against Mexicans. But I think overall, the racial tensions are greater in the US than in the UK.

 

The fact you seem to think we single out the "paki's" to a much larger extent than we do is also telling of your lack of knowledge on British culture. In my opnion people don't single out the Pakistani's, they (the racist ones) just call everyone of descent from the Indian sub-continent region a Paki. This is shown by the fact that a bindi (red spot between the eyebrows) is sometimes derogatarily called a "paki spot" even though it is worn throughout the South Asian area in pretty much everywhere apart from Pakistan.

 

I am talking about what I see on forums posted by British people. What I hear from British people I know, my family over there, etc. Isn't British nationalism just that though? What about the "real British people" comment? What about the UKIP or the BNP?

Ordinary British people as in, a white person. I will guarantee you those same people who make those claims you discuss are prevent in Britain, if encountered with an Arab who was born natively in Britain to Arab immigrant parents, would not consider him a real British person (with or without knowing he's a citizen).

 

What does that have to do with what I said? How does that demonstrate anything? I said never said where specifically a paki was from?

 

 

and plenty of Brits do infact do that

How do you know??

Btw, I bet America has more problems with racism than Europe.

 

 

On the contrary. We don't have laws that say you can't wear a hijab, we don't talk about restricting LEGAL immigration, etc.

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Typhus
But I maintain very firmly that we must only allow immigrants from nations which are secular democracies. We should never be expected to tolerate radical Jihadists actively plotting against the very nation which offered them its generosity, compassion and acceptance.

You see, I understand where you are coming from, but the simple fact of the matter is that the majority of Pakistanis in the UK- Kashmiris- are diametrically opposed to radical Islamism. I've said before and I'll say it again- the majority of Muslims who are convicted of terrorist offences, inciting violence and hatred et cetera are actually white British converts (or "reverts" as the MCB like to rather presumptuously call them) or individuals of African and Caribbean descent.

I am baffled. I must ask, why on Earth would a white person convert to a religion that seems so deeply tied to another ethnicity?

I do not doubt your logic, as you seemingly have a lot of experience in security and such. But one must wonder at the mentality of such people, to come from this country and yet convert to such a foreign, insane idea as Jihadism.

I believe it is another example of this country losing its ability to offer young people a sense of belonging.

 

And, funnily enough, it's not the government bogeyman that's to blame. But the young people themselves. The one thing that could help them - a sense of national solidarity - is sickening to them. They oppose any kind of authority, leadership or heirarchy and then leech onto any 'alternative' community or cause that is opposed to our way of life.

 

Communism, Anarchism, Nazism and, apparently, Jihadism. All mere symptons of the same disease: Apathy.

Don't blame yourselves. Put the blame where it lies, on the shoulders of fickle and immature young people who hate this country and lambaste all manner of oppressive elements whilst glorifying their respective heroes.

 

Ever seen a student defend Che Guevara, I have. Apparently, everyone he killed was simply a pro-Batista gusano who 'had it coming'.

Why, I work with a man exactly my age who loves Hitler. Loves Hitler whilst professing to be a nationalist.

Their precise affiliation does not matter, only the fact that when push came to shove they would rather wave a swastika or a red flag than our own national colours.

 

Honestly, they make me insanely angry.

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Dingdongs

 

But I maintain very firmly that we must only allow immigrants from nations which are secular democracies. We should never be expected to tolerate radical Jihadists actively plotting against the very nation which offered them its generosity, compassion and acceptance.

You see, I understand where you are coming from, but the simple fact of the matter is that the majority of Pakistanis in the UK- Kashmiris- are diametrically opposed to radical Islamism. I've said before and I'll say it again- the majority of Muslims who are convicted of terrorist offences, inciting violence and hatred et cetera are actually white British converts (or "reverts" as the MCB like to rather presumptuously call them) or individuals of African and Caribbean descent.

I am baffled. I must ask, why on Earth would a white person convert to a religion that seems so deeply tied to another ethnicity?

I do not doubt your logic, as you seemingly have a lot of experience in security and such. But one must wonder at the mentality of such people, to come from this country and yet convert to such a foreign, insane idea as Jihadism.

I believe it is another example of this country losing its ability to offer young people a sense of belonging.

 

And, funnily enough, it's not the government bogeyman that's to blame. But the young people themselves. The one thing that could help them - a sense of national solidarity - is sickening to them. They oppose any kind of authority, leadership or heirarchy and then leech onto any 'alternative' community or cause that is opposed to our way of life.

 

Communism, Anarchism, Nazism and, apparently, Jihadism. All mere symptons of the same disease: Apathy.

Don't blame yourselves. Put the blame where it lies, on the shoulders of fickle and immature young people who hate this country and lambaste all manner of oppressive elements whilst glorifying their respective heroes.

 

Ever seen a student defend Che Guevara, I have. Apparently, everyone he killed was simply a pro-Batista gusano who 'had it coming'.

Why, I work with a man exactly my age who loves Hitler. Loves Hitler whilst professing to be a nationalist.

Their precise affiliation does not matter, only the fact that when push came to shove they would rather wave a swastika or a red flag than our own national colours.

 

Honestly, they make me insanely angry.

I think you make great points. To help answer your question, a lot of these white converts become that way due to simple propaganda. Look at Anwar al-Awlaki... he was an American national. He had a guy with him who is from Westbury, NY.. a place literally 15 minutes from where I am from (that guy was killed, was white also). It goes to show how these people can get into the minds of young people. Here in the US at least, people my age (college) and younger are very patriotic. I mean kids still in High School are ridiculously patriotic here. But when you get propaganda on things like the internet, facebook, youtube (al-Awlaki's speciality), people start to listen to them. Put the right music, the right pictures, and people catch on and agree with it. Radicalization is not a hard process. I guarantee you if you were an Islamic radical (or any other radical for that matter) and you were say, my college roommate, and you began radicalizing someone who had little to no political/international knowledge, you would probably be able to radicalize them. Someone like you or me, not likely. But a young kid who is stuck with a person like that all the time is susceptible. Prisons are also a VERY bad place for radicalization, specifically islamic and white nationalist groups.

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KilnerLUFC

 

<SNIP>

 

Maybe other members in this topic have done just that, but since my very first post, this topic started out as an attack against the Government, and how they are so afraid of being branded racist, that British values & tradition has gone downhill. I have no problem with people of different ethnic backgrounds, and this has absolutely nothing to do with the topic at hand. As I stated in previous posts, you come in here and throw accusations around as if you know the current situation, yet all you are doing is expressing your lack of knowledge in this subject.

I throw accusations when I hear nativist rhetoric. Look around in this thread. Your own fellow Brit agrees with me.

 

You started off by throwing that 'racism' card at me though, yet I have yet to see a valid point to your accusation against me. Instead, you keep bringing this 'real british person' comment up that I used, yet, although I have explained my meaning behind this, continue to throw that card into play. You fail to read the points that we are making, and instead just picking something up, taking it out of context and trying to turn it into something major.

 

 

 

I am talking about what I see on forums posted by British people. What I hear from British people I know, my family over there, etc. Isn't British nationalism just that though? What about the "real British people" comment? What about the UKIP or the BNP?

Ordinary British people as in, a white person.y. We don't have laws that say you can't wear a hijab, we don't talk about restricting LEGAL immigration, etc.

 

In my eyes, for a foreigner to be classed as 'British', they must conform to the way of British life. Color of the skin has never bothered me.

 

And as for the post above, about the converts, doesn't this just prove something?

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GTA_stu
I am baffled. I must ask, why on Earth would a white person convert to a religion that seems so deeply tied to another ethnicity?

I do not doubt your logic, as you seemingly have a lot of experience in security and such. But one must wonder at the mentality of such people, to come from this country and yet convert to such a foreign, insane idea as Jihadism.

I believe it is another example of this country losing its ability to offer young people a sense of belonging.

 

And, funnily enough, it's not the government bogeyman that's to blame. But the young people themselves. The one thing that could help them - a sense of national solidarity - is sickening to them. They oppose any kind of authority, leadership or heirarchy and then leech onto any 'alternative' community or cause that is opposed to our way of life.

 

Communism, Anarchism, Nazism and, apparently, Jihadism. All mere symptons of the same disease: Apathy.

Don't blame yourselves. Put the blame where it lies, on the shoulders of fickle and immature young people who hate this country and lambaste all manner of oppressive elements whilst glorifying their respective heroes.

 

Ever seen a student defend Che Guevara, I have. Apparently, everyone he killed was simply a pro-Batista gusano who 'had it coming'.

Why, I work with a man exactly my age who loves Hitler. Loves Hitler whilst professing to be a nationalist.

Their precise affiliation does not matter, only the fact that when push came to shove they would rather wave a swastika or a red flag than our own national colours.

 

Honestly, they make me insanely angry.

I didn't even need to get halfway down the first paragraph to realise you'd go off on a tangent about "those damn youth's ruining our country with their liberal ways and masochistic views". You seem to create some sort of fantasy world where every kid on the street is swinging from the cenotaph or setting a 90 year old war vet on fire then urinating on them.

 

Are there idiots out there with pretty delusional views? Yes. Is it anywhere near as bad as you make out? No. Is it something which is exclusive to this generation? No.

 

On wednesday there were some idiots waving communist flags around near the front of my university. About 20 of them, out of 20,000 students. But I'm sure in your head the 19,980 other students were probably desecrating a war memorial.

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sivispacem
But I maintain very firmly that we must only allow immigrants from nations which are secular democracies. We should never be expected to tolerate radical Jihadists actively plotting against the very nation which offered them its generosity, compassion and acceptance.

You see, I understand where you are coming from, but the simple fact of the matter is that the majority of Pakistanis in the UK- Kashmiris- are diametrically opposed to radical Islamism. I've said before and I'll say it again- the majority of Muslims who are convicted of terrorist offences, inciting violence and hatred et cetera are actually white British converts (or "reverts" as the MCB like to rather presumptuously call them) or individuals of African and Caribbean descent.

I am baffled. I must ask, why on Earth would a white person convert to a religion that seems so deeply tied to another ethnicity?

I do not doubt your logic, as you seemingly have a lot of experience in security and such. But one must wonder at the mentality of such people, to come from this country and yet convert to such a foreign, insane idea as Jihadism.

I believe it is another example of this country losing its ability to offer young people a sense of belonging.

 

And, funnily enough, it's not the government bogeyman that's to blame. But the young people themselves. The one thing that could help them - a sense of national solidarity - is sickening to them. They oppose any kind of authority, leadership or heirarchy and then leech onto any 'alternative' community or cause that is opposed to our way of life.

 

Communism, Anarchism, Nazism and, apparently, Jihadism. All mere symptons of the same disease: Apathy.

Don't blame yourselves. Put the blame where it lies, on the shoulders of fickle and immature young people who hate this country and lambaste all manner of oppressive elements whilst glorifying their respective heroes.

 

Ever seen a student defend Che Guevara, I have. Apparently, everyone he killed was simply a pro-Batista gusano who 'had it coming'.

Why, I work with a man exactly my age who loves Hitler. Loves Hitler whilst professing to be a nationalist.

Their precise affiliation does not matter, only the fact that when push came to shove they would rather wave a swastika or a red flag than our own national colours.

 

Honestly, they make me insanely angry.

I think you make great points. To help answer your question, a lot of these white converts become that way due to simple propaganda. Look at Anwar al-Awlaki... he was an American national. He had a guy with him who is from Westbury, NY.. a place literally 15 minutes from where I am from (that guy was killed, was white also). It goes to show how these people can get into the minds of young people. Here in the US at least, people my age (college) and younger are very patriotic. I mean kids still in High School are ridiculously patriotic here. But when you get propaganda on things like the internet, facebook, youtube (al-Awlaki's speciality), people start to listen to them. Put the right music, the right pictures, and people catch on and agree with it. Radicalization is not a hard process. I guarantee you if you were an Islamic radical (or any other radical for that matter) and you were say, my college roommate, and you began radicalizing someone who had little to no political/international knowledge, you would probably be able to radicalize them. Someone like you or me, not likely. But a young kid who is stuck with a person like that all the time is susceptible. Prisons are also a VERY bad place for radicalization, specifically islamic and white nationalist groups.

All very good points. One of the issues that's been looked at extensively in radicalisation is a factor that cannot really be named or explained- the sense of dissolutionment at Western society. I like to call it the "Kaczynski Complex"- basically, a sense of isolation, of feeling at odds with the direction of society, policy and the world in general. These emotions are often found amongst individuals serving prison sentences- a hatred or distrust of society in general brought on by the circumstances that individuals believe that they have been subjected to. It's one of the reasons why radicalisation is so common in prisons. Similarly, the university campus- an environment which encourages not only free thinking, but questioning of the fundamental values of society in general. That's not to say that everyone who displays a disregard or distrust of Western society is going to become a violent Islamic extremist- but there's a definite trend there. Another aspect is the westernised interpretation of Salafi Islam- Salafi mosques in the UK aren't so much mosques; they bear few of the hallmarks of traditional religious establishments; commonly engage in frank and honest discussion of elements such as the decline of society, crime, sexual behaviours, drug use et al. That's an attitude not found elsewhere in society, let alone in organised religion, and you can see why, whilst Salafists only account for a small percentage of Muslim immigrants coming to the UK, a far larger proportion of converts/reverts are drawn to Salafi teachings. The issue is that Salafism is extremely fundamental- that isn't to say radical or violent by nature, but it harks back to the forefathers of Islam; the time of the great Caliphates and Arab empires, and seeks to re-introduce these fundamental ideas. The problem is that this agenda- not in itself a harm one, I would argue- has been extensively hijacked by violent Islamist groups, who preach hatred of Western society, of non-Muslims and who support the idea of "Jihad" against civilian populations (itself an oxymoron, as the killing of non-combatants is considered Fasad or corrupt and unlawful, by all traditional Islamic teachings- therefore, it's unrealistic to call violent fundamentalists "Jihadi" terrorists, as they are in fact "Fasadi").

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Typhus
I am baffled. I must ask, why on Earth would a white person convert to a religion that seems so deeply tied to another ethnicity?

I do not doubt your logic, as you seemingly have a lot of experience in security and such. But one must wonder at the mentality of such people, to come from this country and yet convert to such a foreign, insane idea as Jihadism.

I believe it is another example of this country losing its ability to offer young people a sense of belonging.

 

And, funnily enough, it's not the government bogeyman that's to blame. But the young people themselves. The one thing that could help them - a sense of national solidarity - is sickening to them. They oppose any kind of authority, leadership or heirarchy and then leech onto any 'alternative' community or cause that is opposed to our way of life.

 

Communism, Anarchism, Nazism and, apparently, Jihadism. All mere symptons of the same disease: Apathy.

Don't blame yourselves. Put the blame where it lies, on the shoulders of fickle and immature young people who hate this country and lambaste all manner of oppressive elements whilst glorifying their respective heroes.

 

Ever seen a student defend Che Guevara, I have. Apparently, everyone he killed was simply a pro-Batista gusano who 'had it coming'.

Why, I work with a man exactly my age who loves Hitler. Loves Hitler whilst professing to be a nationalist.

Their precise affiliation does not matter, only the fact that when push came to shove they would rather wave a swastika or a red flag than our own national colours.

 

Honestly, they make me insanely angry.

I didn't even need to get halfway down the first paragraph to realise you'd go off on a tangent about "those damn youth's ruining our country with their liberal ways and masochistic views". You seem to create some sort of fantasy world where every kid on the street is swinging from the cenotaph or setting a 90 year old war vet on fire then urinating on them.

 

Are there idiots out there with pretty delusional views? Yes. Is it anywhere near as bad as you make out? No. Is it something which is exclusive to this generation? No.

 

On wednesday there were some idiots waving communist flags around near the front of my university. About 20 of them, out of 20,000 students. But I'm sure in your head the 19,980 other students were probably desecrating a war memorial.

If we had simply gotten an apology, if future demonstrations had simply cracked down on the Communist/Anarchist element, if the young people actually showed they gave a sh*t about this country, I would feel differently.

But all they do is bitch and moan about America and England being the 'real' terrorists. Oh, and God help you if you disagree with leftist immigration policies because, as they'll be happy to tell you, it's 'karma' for what the British Empire did.

 

You really don't seem to comprehend just what effect those protests had on me. I saw everything so clearly after that, I finally realised that the young people are our true enemy. Closet Nazis, judgmental and dogmatic fascists, masochistic sludge, barely human at all.

 

Where's our apology? Where the f*ck do they get off pissing on a war memorial? Maybe a few of our delightful little Communists can tell me how such symbols are meaningless and how the past is absolutely worthless. I love that justification. I just love hearing them say it. I just love hearing them defecate on the memory of the thousands who died for them.

 

You can't possibly understand one tenth of the anger I have towards them but don't act like my anger is completely irrational and unjustified.

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KilnerLUFC
I am baffled. I must ask, why on Earth would a white person convert to a religion that seems so deeply tied to another ethnicity?

I do not doubt your logic, as you seemingly have a lot of experience in security and such. But one must wonder at the mentality of such people, to come from this country and yet convert to such a foreign, insane idea as Jihadism.

I believe it is another example of this country losing its ability to offer young people a sense of belonging.

 

And, funnily enough, it's not the government bogeyman that's to blame. But the young people themselves. The one thing that could help them - a sense of national solidarity - is sickening to them. They oppose any kind of authority, leadership or heirarchy and then leech onto any 'alternative' community or cause that is opposed to our way of life.

 

Communism, Anarchism, Nazism and, apparently, Jihadism. All mere symptons of the same disease: Apathy.

Don't blame yourselves. Put the blame where it lies, on the shoulders of fickle and immature young people who hate this country and lambaste all manner of oppressive elements whilst glorifying their respective heroes.

 

Ever seen a student defend Che Guevara, I have. Apparently, everyone he killed was simply a pro-Batista gusano who 'had it coming'.

Why, I work with a man exactly my age who loves Hitler. Loves Hitler whilst professing to be a nationalist.

Their precise affiliation does not matter, only the fact that when push came to shove they would rather wave a swastika or a red flag than our own national colours.

 

Honestly, they make me insanely angry.

I didn't even need to get halfway down the first paragraph to realise you'd go off on a tangent about "those damn youth's ruining our country with their liberal ways and masochistic views". You seem to create some sort of fantasy world where every kid on the street is swinging from the cenotaph or setting a 90 year old war vet on fire then urinating on them.

 

Are there idiots out there with pretty delusional views? Yes. Is it anywhere near as bad as you make out? No. Is it something which is exclusive to this generation? No.

 

On wednesday there were some idiots waving communist flags around near the front of my university. About 20 of them, out of 20,000 students. But I'm sure in your head the 19,980 other students were probably desecrating a war memorial.

If we had simply gotten an apology, if future demonstrations had simply cracked down on the Communist/Anarchist element, if the young people actually showed they gave a sh*t about this country, I would feel differently.

But all they do is bitch and moan about America and England being the 'real' terrorists. Oh, and God help you if you disagree with leftist immigration policies because, as they'll be happy to tell you, it's 'karma' for what the British Empire did.

 

You really don't seem to comprehend just what effect those protests had on me. I saw everything so clearly after that, I finally realised that the young people are our true enemy. Closet Nazis, judgmental and dogmatic fascists, masochistic sludge, barely human at all.

 

Where's our apology? Where the f*ck do they get off pissing on a war memorial? Maybe a few of our delightful little Communists can tell me how such symbols are meaningless and how the past is absolutely worthless. I love that justification. I just love hearing them say it. I just love hearing them defecate on the memory of the thousands who died for them.

 

You can't possibly understand one tenth of the anger I have towards them but don't act like my anger is completely irrational and unjustified.

You're broadening the argument here though, and opening up a whole new load of arguments. Do we really blame the kids, or do we blame the parents for not looking after their kids? Do the young get influenced by the older generation, or by the media that surrounds them on a daily basis, even more accessible with the various means of accessing it? I know what you're trying to get at here, but putting them all in the same boat is exactly where this whole 'racist nation' thing started off.

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Vercetti27
dozingoff.gif oh.my.god

Well...

 

Uh..yes actually, there are plenty of people that identify themselves with the radical muslim population that attend university here in england. usually long haired, rich liberal types that detest any possible form of capitalism and distance themselves from being english or don't identify themselves as such.

Seen as you've spent your entire time in this topic playing the stereotype game, is that not basically a personification of the stereotyped "guardian reader".

 

And I notice you have nothing to say about all the statistics I posted that basically invalidated your entire argument, then?

the quote you posted doesn't mention the guardian at all and in fairness I only said "usually". Does this equal generalising? not exactly, although I knew it was probably not the path to go down at the time. And I noticed you said the description of mine equalled the stereotypical "guardian reader". I absolutely loved that, you see as it is an admission to what I have accused you off. You made the connection, its all in your head. I didn't have to say it for it to be an issue, you had to make the link and now all of a sudden I think "Guardian Readers want to bring down the british government". Talk about sensationalising (is that a word?) or exaggerating. Good enough to be a headline in the Daily Mail which is of course the paper of right wing dimwits according to our friend Robinski.

 

As for your statistics your graph proved more immigrants are being deported than emigrating. Nice. Don't see the relevance as I said in essence that our government caters for their needs very well, and maybe that our respect for them isn't returned. At least thats what I meant, the tolerance and treatment of the immigrants is what makes britain the great place it is, ignoring the racists and the radicals.

 

As for Typhus's argument I totally see what he is saying, a sentiment I had described earlier on. The disillusionment some of the british youth feel towards our culture and history. To piss and disrespect a war memorial or cenotaph? What world must influence them to do such a thing? Perhaps a place where the nationalistic or even just proud englishman is looked upon with suspicion, and xenophobia and bigotry are bywords or pride and patriotism. You don't think the many headlines questioning our decision to go into Iraq, the numerous panel shows that highlight and mock our leaders, and rip the sh*t out of people that go on xenophobic and ignorant rants has something to do with it? The humiliation of innocent muslim men back a while ago that was pictured and put on the front pages of all tabloid papers in the country as well. The new world where poltical correctness has come into affect, and where people have more freedom than ever to express their opinion. I'm not slating any of it mind you, but you can see how one thing will lead to another.

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Clem Fandango
Oh, and God help you if you disagree with leftist immigration policies because, as they'll be happy to tell you, it's 'karma' for what the British Empire did.

Well, you've expressed it terribly, but how does that not make perfect sense to you? Britain ruled Pakistan for centuries, it would be absolutely disgusting not to let them in the country. If you don't let people from former British possessions into the country, the message your sending is that they're good enough to contribute resources, wealth and their very lives in military service to the Crown but aren't worthy of actually living amongst us. Infact, I would wager the average Pakistani family have done just as much to create modern Britain has anyone who actually lives there.

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Dingdongs
Oh, and God help you if you disagree with leftist immigration policies because, as they'll be happy to tell you, it's 'karma' for what the British Empire did.

Well, you've expressed it terribly, but how does that not make perfect sense to you? Britain ruled Pakistan for centuries, it would be absolutely disgusting not to let them in the country. If you don't let people from former British possessions into the country, the message your sending is that they're good enough to contribute resources, wealth and their very lives in military service to the Crown but aren't worthy of actually living amongst us. Infact, I would wager the average Pakistani family have done just as much to create modern Britain has anyone who actually lives there.

It was more like one entire century that India was fully controlled by the British... prior to that the Mughal Empire still existed and any imperial power in the country was dominated by the Portuguese. I don't think it's fair to justify that as if Pakistan was a British possession as the Raj for 400 years or something. It's important to note however that the British in India were not all that horrible as the media likes to portray. Most of the British Raj was Princely States controlled by local leaders who "reported" to the British viceroy, but I can see where you and others come from in justifying basically "we had control over their country and subjugated them to our rule, so it's only fair that we let them in our country". Also, don't forget that Pakistanis enjoy Commonwealth citizenship and (I believe) can easily enter Britain if they are to hold a job. It's not like the option to come easily than someone of another country isn't already there.

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sivispacem
As for your statistics your graph proved more immigrants are being deported than emigrating. Nice. Don't see the relevance as I said in essence that our government caters for their needs very well, and maybe that our respect for them isn't returned. At least thats what I meant, the tolerance and treatment of the immigrants is what makes britain the great place it is, ignoring the racists and the radicals.

No it doesn't. It shows that the number of net migrations- that is, migrations of foreign nationals into the UK minus the number of British nationals emigrating away from the UK- has dropped. In fact, for all the rhetoric about rising immigration, gross migration is no higher today that it was in 2003 and 2006, and net migration is substantially lower. Regardless, what proof do you have that "our respect for them isn't returned", bearing in mind the vast majority of people you've accused of disrespecting the UK have actually been British nationals thus-far?

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Dingdongs
As for your statistics your graph proved more immigrants are being deported than emigrating. Nice. Don't see the relevance as I said in essence that our government caters for their needs very well, and maybe that our respect for them isn't returned. At least thats what I meant, the tolerance and treatment of the immigrants is what makes britain the great place it is, ignoring the racists and the radicals.

No it doesn't. It shows that the number of net migrations- that is, migrations of foreign nationals into the UK minus the number of British nationals emigrating away from the UK- has dropped. In fact, for all the rhetoric about rising immigration, gross migration is no higher today that it was in 2003 and 2006, and net migration is substantially lower. Regardless, what proof do you have that "our respect for them isn't returned", bearing in mind the vast majority of people you've accused of disrespecting the UK have actually been British nationals thus-far?

Because they're brown people.

 

(not intended to be a joke at all, I am 100% serious)

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Vercetti27
As for your statistics your graph proved more immigrants are being deported than emigrating. Nice. Don't see the relevance as I said in essence that our government caters for their needs very well, and maybe that our respect for them isn't returned. At least thats what I meant, the tolerance and treatment of the immigrants is what makes britain the great place it is, ignoring the racists and the radicals.

No it doesn't. It shows that the number of net migrations- that is, migrations of foreign nationals into the UK minus the number of British nationals emigrating away from the UK- has dropped. In fact, for all the rhetoric about rising immigration, gross migration is no higher today that it was in 2003 and 2006, and net migration is substantially lower. Regardless, what proof do you have that "our respect for them isn't returned", bearing in mind the vast majority of people you've accused of disrespecting the UK have actually been British nationals thus-far?

wow, I didn't expect you to ignore the first paragraph. good on you.

 

And I never knew you needed proof to debate here. I don't see the relevance of your graph as I never made the claim "dem immigrants be taking over da country"! As you pointed out many of the radicals and opposers to the british government and "western world" are technically british. But how many of those are 3rd generation or 4th generation immigrants, how many of them can trace their family history back here? What I'm saying is they might technically be british but while they disregard the history and culture of the country, burn the flag and desacrate war memorials in my eyes they don't equal british. I have no respect for them.

 

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-20...-UK-cities.html

 

no matter what silly stereotypes you or robinski were fed from watching mock the week or whatever about the daily mail this is happening. It is by no means a typical case but it is happening. Some Islamist radicals (a couple of them white and british) are trying to enforce another cultures rules in our country. They have no right to do it and what makes them think they have the right to preach to us on how to live? The fact that the white british male who is pictured here has already broken one of the rules says it all about these people. They are scum, just like the scum that they are trying to reduce on our streets.

user posted image

This is mainly an iscolated incident and I'm not buying into any sensationalism, I've read the article and used what I already know about shariah law and the islamist radicals to come to the conclusion that these people have no right to put up those posters.

 

In this country we give people who may not have been born in our country or you may not accept our culture to tell us how to live, to look down on us even though in their home country women don't have equal rights as men. Thats the sort of person many britons don't like and I'm sure OP was talking about them in his first post.

 

@Irviding- Is that supposed to be funny? confused.gif

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Typhus

 

Oh, and God help you if you disagree with leftist immigration policies because, as they'll be happy to tell you, it's 'karma' for what the British Empire did.

Well, you've expressed it terribly, but how does that not make perfect sense to you? Britain ruled Pakistan for centuries, it would be absolutely disgusting not to let them in the country. If you don't let people from former British possessions into the country, the message your sending is that they're good enough to contribute resources, wealth and their very lives in military service to the Crown but aren't worthy of actually living amongst us. Infact, I would wager the average Pakistani family have done just as much to create modern Britain has anyone who actually lives there.

My point isn't the Pakistanis. I admire those who come here and do well. But what I DON'T appreciate are those who feel that not only should we allow immigrants in but doing so is 'penance' for our past actions.

I will accept newcomers, I will wish them all well, I will not judge them on their skin colour or religion but I refuse to be led on a guilt trip by people who hate me for where I come from. Even though such people are actually from these parts too.

 

Do you understand what I mean, now?

 

I am sick of people defending illegal immigration by citing the history of the British Empire. I am sick of them trying to make me feel like a f*cking Nazi because I'm English. That's effectively what they're doing.

"You oppose illegal immigration? Well, it's nothing compared to what you did during the Raj/Boer War/Zulu War/Dissolution of the Monasteries!!!111!"

Edited by Typhus

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sivispacem

 

wow, I didn't expect you to ignore the first paragraph. good on you.

Oh, I'm sorry, did it make you feel sad and alone? Perhaps I didn't want the topic to stray too far from the original issue? Anyway, if you really need me to dignify it with a response-

 

 

the quote you posted doesn't mention the guardian at all and in fairness I only said "usually". Does this equal generalising? not exactly, although I knew it was probably not the path to go down at the time. And I noticed you said the description of mine equalled the stereotypical "guardian reader". I absolutely loved that, you see as it is an admission to what I have accused you off. You made the connection, its all in your head. I didn't have to say it for it to be an issue, you had to make the link and now all of a sudden I think "Guardian Readers want to bring down the british government". Talk about sensationalising (is that a word?) or exaggerating. Good enough to be a headline in the Daily Mail which is of course the paper of right wing dimwits according to our friend Robinski.

I'm fully aware of that. My initial post mentioning The Guardian was a light-hearted mockery of your views and how they are astonishingly poorly informed, contradictory and unhelpful. It's your perception, not mine, that I was discussing the issue seriously and without exaggeration or hyperbole. The interesting thing is that I've been happy to indicate where I've been stereotyping for satirical effect- as I have in this case- whereas you've consistently portrayed stereotypes as being the gospel truth and then slightly re-word your original statements every time I've provided statistics that indicate otherwise. You cannot really blame me for your failure to see the ironic or sardonic nature of things I post.

 

And whilst we're on the subject-

 

You don't think the many headlines questioning our decision to go into Iraq, the numerous panel shows that highlight and mock our leaders, and rip the sh*t out of people that go on xenophobic and ignorant rants has something to do with it?

 

Unless I'm mistaken, what you are saying is "the very values that makes Western culture and ideology the positive thing it is seen to be by many, are in fact what cause people to disrespect this country"? What an astonishingly contradictory statement. Are you saying that the freedom for individuals to express their own opinions on issues such as political and moral decisions is a bad thing, because that's certainly how it reads. The irony being that you yourself have attacked political and social policy in the exact way that you accuse of causing apathy and ambivalence to British values. Isn't that precious? The individual with the most scathing criticisms regarding political and social policy believes that criticisms of social and political policy are a bad thing.

 

I fail to see how you can call yourself a patriot of any kind. Tell me, exactly what have you done, besides present bigoted rants about how foreign nationals and those of foreign descents are ruining this country, that's beneficial to the safety, security and prosperity of this country? Surely you need to be a true patriot, not a chauvinist, in order to judge others on their "national pride"?

 

 

And I never knew you needed proof to debate here.

You don't need proof to present an argument, though it's always helpful to have some statistics in there to back up any points you make. But you should be willing to support your argument when it's critiqued by others- an evidential basis is what separates a viable theory from a conspiracy theory, or a legitimate argument from a diatribe. Tell me, why are you so unwilling to back up your arguments? Why do you insist on repeating yourself instead of providing a structured and logical argument that you can support with evidence? I mean, a "debate" by it's very definition is a structured argument supported by logic and factual information.

 

 

I don't see the relevance of your graph as I never made the claim "dem immigrants be taking over da country"!

No, you've made the claim that immigrants are treated preferentially by the government in comparison to the rest of society. By saying that we "roll out the red carpet for immigrants", you are in essence saying that they are considered more important than British citizens. The relevance of my graph is that, if that were the case, you'd expect to see a large rise in gross and net migration but that simply isn't the case. All people are equal in the eyes of the law- and that is a fundamental part of the judicial system- so please explain to me how you came to the conclusion that immigrants receive preferential treatment, because it's not supported in any legislation or statistics I've ever seen. Whatsmore, you may not categorically be saying "dem immigrants be taking over da country" but the insinuation of "roll out the red carpet for immigrants" is that you feel this is the case; otherwise, why would you see it as a problem? You're obviously irrationally scared of Islamists taking over the country, even though it's about as likely as Piers Morgan being Deputy Prime Minister to Jeremy Clarkson, and they (according to you, at least) are immigrants, so you are, in a way, saying that immigrants are taking over the country.

 

 

As you pointed out many of the radicals and opposers to the british government and "western world" are technically british. But how many of those are 3rd generation or 4th generation immigrants, how many of them can trace their family history back here?

A large number, in fact, as the graph on terrorism arrests suggests. If individuals of white British heritage outnumber all other minorities arrested for terrorism offences almost 2:1, then by default a large number of "radicals and opposers to the british government and "western world"" are in fact entirely British (or at least European) in their heritage. And with regards to "tracing family history back here", large numbers of individuals are more "British" than many British people- I don't hear you complaining about large scale European migration during the Second World War, claiming that the offspring of these people aren't British because their grandparents and great-grandparents were born in Krakow, Vienna, Paris or Murmansk?

 

 

What I'm saying is they might technically be british but while they disregard the history and culture of the country, burn the flag and desacrate war memorials in my eyes they don't equal british. I have no respect for them.

Then exactly how do you define "Britishness"? It doesn't matter what you deem to be British "in your eyes"; it's utterly irrelevant because like it or not these people are British. You don't see Americans complaining that New Yorkers aren't American because their ancestors are from Italy or Ireland, do you? It's exactly the same; unless you set some kind of benchmark for what "Britishness" is, either all those born in the UK to residents of it's kingdoms are British, or no-one's British because we're all at the end of the day descended from tribes based in Africa and the Middle East. There's absolutely no logic in your argument. You can't just turn round and say "Pete is British but Steve isn't because he's disagreed with the direction recent political parties have taken"; civil identity is entirely down to place of birth. Now, if you want to argue national identity, then you've got an entirely different debate on your hands, because national identity has nothing to do with nation of origin or nation of residence, but an affinity you feel with a certain country. It's also a moot point, as the vast majority of violent Islamists in the UK would identify themselves as "British"- that is, they feel that they are British (which is the entire definition of national identity- what nation someone feels an affinity with), but may behave in a way that is contradictory to what you or my perception of British identity would be. And, even if you were to argue the cased based on ideas of "national identity", how about the large numbers of foreign nationals who live in this country, still feel the greatest affinity with their nation of origin, but contribute positively to British society?

 

 

no matter what silly stereotypes you or robinski were fed from watching mock the week or whatever about the daily mail this is happening.

Yes, it is, but is it having any impact? I mean, lost of people stick up posters proclaiming certain values in areas. Does having a Neighbourhood Watch sign, or a gang tag in an area, mean that organisations has the rule of law there? If I stuck a sign to a lamppost saying "no walking on this pavement", would people listen? You're trying to use a trivial event with no actual impact on the day-to-day lives of citizens in the area concerned as a justification for an argument that it just doesn't support in any way. If they were beating up hookers, hurling stones at drinkers and shutting down live music venues, I'd understand your sentiments, but they aren't. It's a symbolic gesture and one with no real value; it's no different from tagging a train or putting a sign up in your window saying "no cold calling"; true, the underlying force behind it is harmful, but until you see radical Islamists threatening to lynch homosexuals on the street corner, I wouldn't worry about it. It's a publicity stunt- no different from dressing in a Spiderman costume and scaling up a tower. You think that Fathers 4 Justice are violent radicals too?

 

 

It is by no means a typical case but it is happening.

You are quite right, it's not a typical case. In fact, it's extremely rare, far rarer than a whole raft of other social ills which you could have feasibly ranted about. So why place so much emphasis on it, unless it's down to xenophobia? I mean, there are plenty of other cases of anti-establishment action; attacks on the nature of the British people or British life, but you seem to care not one jot about these- not one jot about gang culture, or about far-right extremism, or violent Republicanism, or homophobic violence. No, you choose to target your entire attack on a minuscule minority of individuals who, whilst posing a threat, are a rounding error in terms of the social harm they cause. And yet you portray them as if they are one of the four horsemen of the apocalypse. Why? Is it because you've been brainwashed by sensationalist media, because you've lent your ear to closet fascists or right-wing extremists, or because you are genuinely xenophobic?

 

 

Some Islamist radicals (a couple of them white and british) are trying to enforce another cultures rules in our country.

Are they? I seen no evidence they're actually trying to enforce these rules? There's certainly no evidence presented in the article.

 

 

They have no right to do it and what makes them think they have the right to preach to us on how to live?

True, but what gives one citizen who is operating in the bounds of the law any right to tell any other citizen operating in the bounds of the law how to live? Unfortunately, they have every right to do it, regardless of how despicable it is to Western society, because we don't live in an oppressive, jingoistic, Orwellian police state where people can be thrown in jail for expressing opinions that don't directly wish harm on others. That said, Choudary suffers significant repercussions for his actions- he's probably watched intently by the security services, I would image that his communications are listened to on a frequent basis, and the moment he transgresses any of this nation's laws he's liable to end up receiving the harshest of penalties. The problem is that a legal system must treat all individuals equally; there are already laws in place designed to target radical hate-speech, but you cannot target one group of people entirely with legislation because it's discriminatory. You'd have to start producing legislation outlawing people speaking ill of this country, or trying to support alternative political systems- and where would that get you? Anyone criticising British behaviour or morals would be breaking the law. Anyone calling for changes to the political system- like the Alternative Vote- would be breaking the law. Anyone who disagreed with government policy would be breaking the law. What you seem unable to understand is that many of the policies that you seem to suggest as a solution to this problem are common steps used by authoritarian and fascist governments to suppress free speech and ensure political power. In essence, what you appear to be suggesting is a large step away from the very Western ideologies that you claim to defend.

 

Someone doing something you personally consider an affront to your views doesn't mean that they should be punished for it. Whilst I accept that fundamentalist Islam is producing harmful effects in segments of our community, there are presently larger threats- in my view, even in terrorism and national security- which call for more drastic and immediate action. I mean, how many British citizens have been killed on this fair island by Islamist terrorists in the last two years? None. And how many have been killed by the Continuity IRA, Real IRA or Óglaigh na hÉireann in the last 2 years? Five. But oh no, the Islamists are a bigger problem because their political ideas don't tally in with the views of many British people, despite them being far weaker in terms of manpower, public support, training, financing and equipment. Glad you're not a counter-terrorism risk analyst.

 

 

The fact that the white british male who is pictured here has already broken one of the rules says it all about these people.

What does it say, then? Because, to me, it's a pictorial demonstration that you are wrong to stereotype this as a foreign or foreign-originated thing.

 

 

In this country we give people who may not have been born in our country or you may not accept our culture to tell us how to live, to look down on us even though in their home country women don't have equal rights as men. Thats the sort of person many britons don't like and I'm sure OP was talking about them in his first post.

That's a big claim. But it's a completely meaningless statement unless you can demonstrate that it's factual. Popular perceptions don't really correlate into facts very well, there's a kind of groupthink mentality when it comes to controversial issues that's incredibly unhelpful in addressing complex issues. If your neighbour, your cousin and one of your mates start saying something, then there's a pretty high likelihood that you'll start to agree with them. That's not to say that every public perception is wrong, but the fact of the matter is I've provided factual, statistical evidence that indicates that the problem of violent radicalisation and anti-British/anti-Western sentiment is a far less common occurrence than you imply, yet you still continue to make the same tired old arguments without any basis for them in fact or evidence. Why is that? Have you been lured into that groupthink dichotomy, where the views of a social group begin to align themselves with no regard for factual or evidential basis? Or is it something more sinister?

 

 

Have I ever disputed things like this? One individual does not equal a case for an argument. A few dozen individuals doesn't either; especially in this case when violent, anti-establishment white British citizens outnumber all other violent, anti-establishment ethnicities and subcultures by almost two to one.

Edited by sivispacem

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Dingdongs

Nope. That wasn't supposed to be funny at all. It just kind of backs up my point. You're like one of those old white guys that when you ask why they didn't vote for Obama, they can't answer other than by saying "I don't trust him". Just admit it. You don't view people who don't have full anglo saxon ancestry as British. You said it yourself. Goes back 3 - 4 generations, for that reason, they aren't British. It seems a lot of Europeans have that view though. To us here in the US, if you are a first generation immigrant, you're an American. We don't have this whole "accept our culture or leave" notion that you seem to continue trying to advance. Your culture IS our culture.

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Clem Fandango
Oh, and God help you if you disagree with leftist immigration policies because, as they'll be happy to tell you, it's 'karma' for what the British Empire did.

Well, you've expressed it terribly, but how does that not make perfect sense to you? Britain ruled Pakistan for centuries, it would be absolutely disgusting not to let them in the country. If you don't let people from former British possessions into the country, the message your sending is that they're good enough to contribute resources, wealth and their very lives in military service to the Crown but aren't worthy of actually living amongst us. Infact, I would wager the average Pakistani family have done just as much to create modern Britain has anyone who actually lives there.

My point isn't the Pakistanis. I admire those who come here and do well. But what I DON'T appreciate are those who feel that not only should we allow immigrants in but doing so is 'penance' for our past actions.

I will accept newcomers, I will wish them all well, I will not judge them on their skin colour or religion but I refuse to be led on a guilt trip by people who hate me for where I come from. Even though such people are actually from these parts too.

 

Do you understand what I mean, now?

 

I am sick of people defending illegal immigration by citing the history of the British Empire. I am sick of them trying to make me feel like a f*cking Nazi because I'm English. That's effectively what they're doing.

"You oppose illegal immigration? Well, it's nothing compared to what you did during the Raj/Boer War/Zulu War/Dissolution of the Monasteries!!!111!"

Right-o, but always keep in mind that Britain was an Empire when it fought the Nazis, it wasn't just people from the Isles dying on the battle field. Ergo, I feel the freedoms we enjoy in Great Britain and her colonial cousins (Canada, Australia etc.) should be accessible to everyone.

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KilnerLUFC
Oh, and God help you if you disagree with leftist immigration policies because, as they'll be happy to tell you, it's 'karma' for what the British Empire did.

Well, you've expressed it terribly, but how does that not make perfect sense to you? Britain ruled Pakistan for centuries, it would be absolutely disgusting not to let them in the country. If you don't let people from former British possessions into the country, the message your sending is that they're good enough to contribute resources, wealth and their very lives in military service to the Crown but aren't worthy of actually living amongst us. Infact, I would wager the average Pakistani family have done just as much to create modern Britain has anyone who actually lives there.

My point isn't the Pakistanis. I admire those who come here and do well. But what I DON'T appreciate are those who feel that not only should we allow immigrants in but doing so is 'penance' for our past actions.

I will accept newcomers, I will wish them all well, I will not judge them on their skin colour or religion but I refuse to be led on a guilt trip by people who hate me for where I come from. Even though such people are actually from these parts too.

 

Do you understand what I mean, now?

 

I am sick of people defending illegal immigration by citing the history of the British Empire. I am sick of them trying to make me feel like a f*cking Nazi because I'm English. That's effectively what they're doing.

"You oppose illegal immigration? Well, it's nothing compared to what you did during the Raj/Boer War/Zulu War/Dissolution of the Monasteries!!!111!"

Right-o, but always keep in mind that Britain was an Empire when it fought the Nazis, it wasn't just people from the Isles dying on the battle field. Ergo, I feel the freedoms we enjoy in Great Britain and her colonial cousins (Canada, Australia etc.) should be accessible to everyone.

But should this access be treated with disrespect, by people wishing 'destruction' on the country that has given them a home? Should this access equal the decline of the pride of the country's symbol?

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