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KilnerLUFC

Foreigner In My Own Country?!?!

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KilnerLUFC

In the recent months/years, there have been many cases of politics trying to spoil everything to do with being proud of being English....in England?!?!

 

The earliest case I can remember was the whole England Flag debacle that went on quite some years back. Basically, the Government warned that taxi drivers, along with some others such as bin men, were banned from flying the England flag within their vehicles during the world cup. Here is a quote I found on a news article, and it actually sickens me to read it:

 

 

London's cabbies are normally prevented from displaying patriotic material on their vehicles under a ban on signs and advertising.

 

Advertising? Are you f*cking kidding me? The only thing being advertised here is the fact that we want to support our own country throughout a world cup. Here a few articles regarding this:

 

http://www.thisislondon.co.uk/standard/art...ld-cup-stars.do

 

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/surrey/8709173.stm

 

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-12...-World-Cup.html

 

The workers were threatened with the sack if they were to fly the flags during the world cup. TBH, as a kid I felt like I was breaking some law by having my flags up on the windows of my house. This is just wrong in every way.

 

-------------------------------------

 

The next one is when we suddenly saw 'English' dissapear from forms, and replaced with White British. Now I understand there may be reasons behind this, but it seems like yet another step towards wiping out the 'English', if you get me.

 

-------------------------------------

 

Or how about the fact that Merry Xmas is now deemed racist. I'm not sure if this has effected any other country, but I see my own Government using the term Happy Holidays. With this also came the curb on decorating towns and cities with Xmas trees and lights due to the fear it may seem offensive to other cultures. Growing up in Bradford, I grew up seeing the whole city decorated with Eid decorations, which were kept up for the whole of the holiday season, yet Xmas came around and it seemed like they feared to celebrate the tradition. Some articles I quickly found on Google:

 

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/153...se-offence.html

 

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-15...l#ixzz18IHdAmq0

 

I know quite a few cities that won't be putting up any decorations during the festive season, and it sickens me yet again.

 

------------------------------------

 

My last point for now, and the most recent thing to rile my blood:

 

 

 

 

Some months back, a Muslim was in the news for burning a poppy wreath, and only receiving a very minimum fine from the courts, which was a substantially less amount of money than a man got fined for dropping a tab end on the floor.

 

Yes, I understand that these people are extremists and whatever, but the point to all of this is how our Government seems to be sitting back and letting all this happen, in fear of being classed as racist. The funny thing is, I have yet to meet a single foreigner who is offended by any of the English culture, yet the Government seems to still be trying to force us to lose pride in our country.

 

I believe in Free Speech and all that sh*t, but I don't believe in an English Government who aren't even proud to announce that they are English, due to the fact they may be labelled as racist.

 

Take a look across the water, and from what I've seen, it seems just about every American house & building has at least one flag on the outside of the building. Why the hell is this country not like that? Why the hell should I feel like I'm breaking some type of law by waving my England flag around. Why are we sitting back and letting them make a mockery of our country?

 

I am in no way racist, but I am sick of the fact that our own Government is too scared to be classed as racist that they have let this country lose all it's pride.

 

Great Britain, Pffft, don't make me f*cking laugh.

 

Anyone else feel this way, or am I just ranting at small things? Should England get some pride bakc into it, and finally understand that no minority is offended by a f*cking English flag, or any of our traditions.

Edited by Butters 2011

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Robinski

Right. Let's get this straight. This sh*t happens every Christmas, every World Cup, every St George's day and whenever something vaguely "English" happens. This sh*t is all a bag of lies.

 

I remember posting about this during the last World Cup. There was a stupid copy/paste thing going around Facebook about how police were going into pubs and telling people to take off England shirts because it was racist. Completely made up. These things, just about all of them, are either completely false or misinterpreted. What happens is some retared hears something, puts it on FB/sends a text/ however else these things spread, it gets around, the press report on the spread of it, which the stupid public takes as the press saying it actually happened, then you open your eyes and realise you're in a ridiculously offensive echo chamber.

 

Most of the things that actually happen are for valid reasons, not "offence". Stuff like the taxi flag ban, if it were about causing this stupid "offence" why would a council spokesperson say this?

 

"We accept that many taxi drivers want to be patriotic and we have been fully supportive of them wearing England shirts."

 

There is racism in all these stupid things, it's the f*cking public being xenophobic as sh*t and just assuming every negative thing they hear about those dirty foreigners stealing more of our rights must be 100% true.

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KilnerLUFC

 

I remember posting about this during the last World Cup. There was a stupid copy/paste thing going around Facebook about how police were going into pubs and telling people to take off England shirts because it was racist. Completely made up. These things, just about all of them, are either completely false or misinterpreted. What happens is some retared hears something, puts it on FB/sends a text/ however else these things spread, it gets around, the press report on the spread of it, which the stupid public takes as the press saying it actually happened, then you open your eyes and realise you're in a ridiculously offensive echo chamber.

Yeah, those Muslims burning poppies and not shutting up during the silence was just due to people spreading it via FB & Text... sarcasm.gif

 

And please, explain what 'valid' excuse they have for banning bin men and taxi drivers from flying the flag of their country?

Edited by Butters 2011

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Robinski

Yes, those handful of people definitely represent the 1.5 billion Muslims.

 

And seeing as we're making this specifically about Muslims and patriotism, I'll leave this here:

http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage/featu...re-Muslims.html

 

Valid as in, there is a proper reason for stopping them, as in if there is a law against displaying anything somewhere, then being told to pull down a flag this isn't an issue of race.

Edited by Robinski

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Dingdongs

What a ridiculous xenophobic and nativist rant. Haven't you been Geeat British since 1603? (excuse me if it's not 03)

 

As for the Muslims, honestly, just do us a favor and go somewhere your racist nonsense is welcome. How about stormfront? These random rumors, as Robinski mentioned, appear in emails and texts from

assholes. I remember people posting on Facebook a copied and pasted message that Obama wants to remint our coins with "Allahu Akbar" instead of "In God we trust".

 

Grow a brain, please.

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Typhus
What a ridiculous xenophobic and nativist rant. Haven't you been Geeat British since 1603? (excuse me if it's not 03)

I'm English, not British. You think it's racist to want to be English instead of British? How absurd.

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Vercetti27

xenophobic? people like irviding are the problem. patriotism is not xenophobic, flying flags isn't xenophobic, being proud of where you come from isn't xenophobic and displaying poppies or any other english/british memorbilia isn't being xenophobic.

 

problem with great britain in the 21st century is it is a soft touch, its a socialist state where it lays down the red carpet for incoming immigrants, tells everyone to repsect they're culture, and then tries to stop anyone from being loud and proud of being english. It's this whole "multicultural society" bullsh*t that does my head in. Thats basically saying england won't be english anymore, this place will let immigrants come across and enforce they're own culture without the people that were born and raised in this country doing the same, its just a typical double standard.

 

The muslims that do burn poppies and abuse war memorials should be instantly arrested and sent back home, immigrants that respect our country should have the same rights as everyone else. I don't like racism though, any british person who doesn't respect the culture of an islamic person or immigrant shouldn't expect any special treatment.

 

I think the problem is som people think now that a lot of the population is made of people that weren't born or don't have british descent that it is racist to have a rant against the immigrants that don't respect this country. It really isn't. I know many people who are scared of england's culture evaporating into thin air becuase of recent times. Things like not being able to display flags in your own country is madness, no matter what way you look at it.

 

And I'd never call myself british to be honest, I might be british but I'm english as far as I'm concerned.

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KilnerLUFC
What a ridiculous xenophobic and nativist rant. Haven't you been Geeat British since 1603? (excuse me if it's not 03)

 

As for the Muslims, honestly, just do us a favor and go somewhere your racist nonsense is welcome. How about stormfront? These random rumors, as Robinski mentioned, appear in emails and texts from

assholes. I remember people posting on Facebook a copied and pasted message that Obama wants to remint our coins with "Allahu Akbar" instead of "In God we trust".

 

Grow a brain, please.

Maybe you should read my full post, and then you'll see that I'm not racist at all. I'm not in any way attacking these individual Muslims or anything like that, yet attacking the Government for not doing anything about it, and politics getting in the way. I have plenty of ethnic friends, and this is where I based the whole debate about it not offending any of them from. I've spent my whole life in one of the most ethnic cities in England, and I believe in this whole multi-cultural thing, but not when it comes to stopping everything to do with English.

 

Maybe you should 'grow a brain', rather than calling me a racist and then just stating that you agree with someone else. yawn.gif

 

@Robinski, same goes for you. Am not attacking any individual Muslim for their beliefs and Free Speech, but instead for the very fact that the police are afraid to step in and do anything about it.

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Robinski

 

The muslims that do burn poppies and abuse war memorials should be instantly arrested and sent back home, immigrants that respect our country should have the same rights as everyone else. I don't like racism though, any british person who doesn't respect the culture of an islamic person or immigrant shouldn't expect any special treatment.

Emdadur Choudhury, who was famously charged with a public order offence for burning memorial poppies is as British as you or me. Sending him home means sending him to Bethnal Green. Next, British culture and Islamic culture aren't two mutually exclusive things.

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Typhus

The Muslims are not the problem. It's the Anarchists, the left-wing media, the far-right populists.

Patriotism, sensible patriotism has been attacked by all sides. But few have done it as much harm as those BNP/EDL scumbags who drag our flag through the mud, preying on the stupidity and ignorance of the common man.

 

I, like most others, was sickened by the poppy burning. But who complains when the University students desecrate WAR MEMORIALS. We're not talking about burning a replica flower. We are talking about whipping out your penis and urinating on monuments designed to remember the people who died for our freedom.

 

You want to blame someone? Blame yourselves. Blame the way that nothing is held sacred, everything is ridiculed. Do you people care about ANYTHING? Morals? Decency? History? No, no, how silly. The only thing that motivates you is 'fairness' and this Utopian bullsh*t you spout at every protest and rally.

 

The youth are the problem. The youth disgust me. They don't have an ounce of f*cking respect. I feel so much pure hatred bubbling up inside me and can't figure out what to do. I don't want their 'revolution' and I don't want to live in their Utopia. I've said it once and I'll say it again: If the Anarchist hordes in our Universities want to make this glorious new world, they'll have to build it on my mangled corpse.

 

I want to paint myself in their congealing blood. I want to dance in their steaming, rancid intestines. I wish them nothing but personal loss and misery. They are the ones who set this nation on the wrong course. Oh, they're so tolerant! Whoopee! They love everyone, don't they? Look, look! They're giving the cameraman the peace symbol! They must want everyone to be happy!

What about people who disagree with you? Hmm? What about people who care about their country? What about people who believe in Capitalism? What about Christians? I say Christians, because God knows, you suck the cock of every single otherfaith - even when their respective fanatics actively want to destroy you..

 

But what about us, then? Where do we fit in? Oh, I know. You'll have to 're-educate' us, right?

You want to know why this country is a mess? Because these Anarchist f*cks run the BBC. Don't believe me? Look at their Pro-Palestine bias. Look how they were ever so sympathetic to the Dale Farm squatters - even when local residents were against them. Look how they take every opportunity to denigrate our police and armed forces. Just look at them and realise how shallow, how pathetic it is to pin our problems on an immigrant population who have done nothing but try to blend in and find their place here.

 

I have always respect our immigrants and I will always defend them. But I will never respect nor forgive the home-grown traitors who are purposefully seeking our destruction so they can rebuild England as a cold, grey Republic. Don't defend them, I know I'm right. I have hated these c*nts since I was a child. I hope to see the day when they are utterly, irreversibly destroyed.

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Dingdongs

 

I'm English, not British. You think it's racist to want to be English instead of British? How absurd.

 

No. You misunderstood me. Just to clarify, I wasn't talking about the flag flying or identifying oneself as English as xenophobic. I was talking about the typical, unfounded bullsh*t about Muslims found in many British peoples' rants nowadays. They don't work, they burn the flag, whatever other sh*t that probably more people of different sects do than Muslims. But don't worry guys, Muslims are easy to hate ever since 9/11, so we can just spew bullsh*t about the less than half a percent of them that are involved in terrorist/anti-government activity.

 

As for the British thing, yes, I will call you British. A British person is defined as one who lives in Great Britain, a descendent of such people, etc. You can choose to identify yourself as English instead, but the fact is, you're kidding yourself. You are British whether you like it or not. I'm American whether I like it or not. If I go move to Spain, I could say I am now Spanish once I get citizenship and totally relinquish my American citizenship, but that doesn't change the fact that by definition and by custom I am American. Same with my state identity. That's very important in the US - what state you're from. I could move to Kentucky but to the people of Kentucky I am still a New Yorker.

Edited by Irviding

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KilnerLUFC

I'm English, not British. You think it's racist to want to be English instead of British? How absurd.

 

No. You misunderstood me. Just to clarify, I wasn't talking about the flag flying or identifying oneself as English as xenophobic. I was talking about the typical, unfounded bullsh*t about Muslims found in many British peoples' rants nowadays. They don't work, they burn the flag, whatever other sh*t that probably more people of different sects do than Muslims. But don't worry guys, Muslims are easy to hate ever since 9/11, so we can just spew bullsh*t about the less than half a percent of them that are involved in terrorist/anti-government activity.

Yet again, feel the need to defend myself since your first comment was aimed towards me. I have grown up in a 'Muslim city', had plenty of Muslim friends, and yet they caused no trouble. The whole Muslim debate was only brought about because it's the bloody truth, and it's right there in black and white. These extremists are given all the media attention they want, and allowed to carry on their hate campaign, yet as soon as a member of the BNP open their mouths, they get an instant hate campaign against them. I don't defend the BNP, but maybe this is just media as well?

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vertical limit

Irviding, you starting to sound like a dick especially after you wrote this.

 

 

Muslims are easy to hate ever since 9/11

 

I respect people's culture and their beliefs. You are blaming a whole religion just because of a minority of idiots. You have that avatar "We will never forget" and there is a picture of the Twin Towers burning, but what about the Americans, Bin Laden didn't attack the Twin Towers out of the blue.

 

I am not saying that what he did was right.

 

But listen, I am not trying to be hostile or anything but your patriotism is making you ignorant. You are blind.

 

The Arabs/Muslims are not terrorists, you don't have to blame them for the actions of one.

 

The Arabs don't support Al-Qaeda in any way.

 

The Arabs hate Al-Qaeda as much as you do, they ruined our image of how we appear to the world.

 

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fireguy109

You may want to read that again. He said as a social commentary that it is easy to hate all Muslims and stereotype all Muslims after 9/11, especially considering the way the media is and how quick to judge people are. He didn't say that he agreed with it, just that it is easy for people to do it. confused.gif

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Vercetti27

vertical limit you've totally mis-interpreted irvidings post.

 

 

the extremists that try to desacrate our culture are worthy of hate, I don't care if one of the c*nts was british or not, they deserve to be treated like a crimanel. I've heard a lot about british people with middle eastern roots joining these extremist groups and learning to hate "the west" even though they were brought up with western sensibilities and live in a civilised, tolerant world. f*ck them.

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AlexGTAGamer

Well I've had an England flag in my front window since the football world cup last year and I/we (my family) haven't gotten into trouble yet, nor has one of our neighbours on our street who has a Union Jack and a Swiss flag in his front window. Also another person in our area who has an England flag in his window and a "Help For Heroes" flag on his flagpole infront of his house and the local pub is drapped in St Georges Crosses, all haven't been deamed as "racists", and the area is classed as a "melting pot of different religions and ethnicities". So for the debate on England flags I guess it depends on where you are in the country.

 

Now onto the "Merry Xmas/Happy Holidays" and Christmas decorations debates, that is not true where I live. The stores here have been putting up Christmas decorations as early as October time, and the "lighting of the cities' Christmas lights" are a very big thing in Bristol, Bath and other cities/towns here in the West country (and in other parts of the UK too I believe).

 

Granted the local schools no longer have Christmas pantomimes of the Nativity Story here anymore, but that doesn't get anyone down in this area (even the local church doesn't care about this due to the fact that they hold their own Christmas Carol service on the streets, in the church, and at other various places in the area, predominantly in the local pub. Plus they have their own Christmas pantomime too anyway).

 

Also I agree that religious extremists (like those who burned the poppy on Armistice Day) do make my blood boil, but it does for other people too. Muslims who I've spoken to share disgrace and anger to what those extremists did on Armistice Day.

 

Some people who I've spoke to who have come from the West Indies are proud to call themselves "English", same for people who have moved from Middle Eastern and African countries. I'm still proud to call myself English along with the rest of my family even though our government is very anxious on what can offend certain cultures.

 

But I/we have stayed strong and have just ignored all of the doom and gloom that happens/has happened here in the UK and set our sights on the future, and our minds on the things that has made this country great.

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Clem Fandango

 

Don't defend them, I know I'm right. I have hated these c*nts since I was a child. I hope to see the day when they are utterly, irreversibly destroyed.

Well you'll be waiting a while for that since they don't actually exist outside of your own head. You've basically taken all the things you don't like and created a fake political ideology you can disagree with that espouses all of them. Why would an anarchist attend university? Why would an anarchist be pro-Islam? It seems counter-intuitive that anarchists would be in control of the government and media conglomerates, or be for a republic (what the f*ck?).

 

But for what it's worth, you can be proud while being anti-authority. Morrissey (a notorious anti-monarchist) is the most anti-establishment man in entertainment, and he's all about the patriotism.

 

 

 

Same with Pete Doherty, Russell Brand etc.

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Vercetti27

 

Why would an anarchist attend university? Why would an anarchist be pro-Islam? It seems counter-intuitive that anarchists would be in control of the government and media conglomerates, or be for a republic (what the f*ck?).

 

Uh..yes actually, there are plenty of people that identify themselves with the radical muslim population that attend university here in england. usually long haired, rich liberal types that detest any possible form of capitalism and distance themselves from being english or don't identify themselves as such.

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sivispacem

Lots of rhetoric going on here, very little actual intelligent discussion. I suggest those who are making significant points take a step back and present them in a slightly more objective way. I'd like to address a few things that have been mentioned here-

 

1) Very few people "identify with the radical Muslim population", anywhere you look. People may say things that are sensationalist in order to attract attention to themselves, but very few can present a cohesive argument for siding with violent Islamists- because there's no cohesive argument to make. As someone whose spent a good many years at universities, and a number of years studying trends in violent extremism, I can say categorically that the only tangible link between Islamic extremism and universities is the small number of individuals who are radicalised whilst studying. It's around 1/3 of all convicted Islamists in the UK, which sounds like a relatively high proportion but in reality is (given the fact that over 50% of individuals aged 18-21 are either in, or preparing to enter, the higher education system) quite small.

 

2) Burning poppies is not illegal. You can express moral outrage all you want at it, but, save for in occasions where it could be interpreted as breach of the peace, it's not a fundamentally illegal act. Now, if you are arguing that there is some grounds for producing a law for use against individuals disrespecting the UK, then present that rather than just semantics- at least that's a logical line of argument.

 

I wish people would stop playing the victim. Robinski covered just about every aspect of it quite concisely and correctly. The vast majority of those who immigrate into this country abide by it's laws far better than British citizens do- the "problem", when it comes to radicalisation, is actually amongst members of certain 3rd or 4th generation communities- which makes them as or more British than I am- and amongst British citizens who convert to radical forms of Islam. I just don't understand how otherwise intelligent people can buy into all this sensationalist crap without spending one moment thinking "hang on, this doesn't sound right". Basically, this thread comes across as a select few members using rhetoric and ignorance to justify their own intolerance and moral outrage at society, politics and anything else that's available. Vercetti27- you accuse the "liberal wealthy" of encouraging the actions of Islamic extremists, when in reality it's derogatory and bigoted attitudes as such as your own which encourage radicalisation.

 

So, why are you a "patriot", then? Explain to me how your actions have been patriotic, and what you feel your justification for feeling so is.

Edited by sivispacem

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Emhyr

 

Irviding, you starting to sound like a dick especially after you wrote this.

 

 

Muslims are easy to hate ever since 9/11

 

I respect people's culture and their beliefs. You are blaming a whole religion just because of a minority of idiots. You have that avatar "We will never forget" and there is a picture of the Twin Towers burning, but what about the Americans, Bin Laden didn't attack the Twin Towers out of the blue.

 

I am not saying that what he did was right.

 

But listen, I am not trying to be hostile or anything but your patriotism is making you ignorant. You are blind.

 

The Arabs/Muslims are not terrorists, you don't have to blame them for the actions of one.

 

The Arabs don't support Al-Qaeda in any way.

 

The Arabs hate Al-Qaeda as much as you do, they ruined our image of how we appear to the world.

 

Why don't you read his text again? You missed something.

 

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Vercetti27

I'm bigoted now?

 

 

deary me

 

EDIT-

 

sivispacem, I'm not sure why you have to go about this sub-forum, prowling around looking for oppurtunities to call people out on your favourite words "ignorance", "bigoted", "derogaotry", in an attempt to prove your intelligence or whatever. I only tried to tell the australian fellow that in england we suffer from a minority of anarchist twats trying to start some kind of revolution without a cause or target. And the fact that the majority of them happens to be liberal and wealthy (they attend university, one of them is the son of a rockstar) would go without saying. However I'm sure judging a person by they're wealth, economic standing or political stance can be down to bigotry, as of course any view on a person's class, race or anything else for that matter is down to bigotry if you read the right newspaper.

 

Burning poppies is legal, well I don't really care. Loads of things that are legal and aren't shouldn't be. I don't see why it matters as the burning of poppies by either ignorant anarchists or islamic radicals is always going to generate fury. Whether I'm patriotic or not doesn't matter, I'm not proud of everything my country has done (how could I be) its what the poppy stands for. The freedom to do it is of course down to our tolerant, liberal society. The fact some immigrants take advantage of our tolerant nature is frustrating, how anyone can argue against that becuase "they have the right to do that" I don't know. Its like you don't care what they do and would rather tell people that get emotional or angry about it how to feel instead and that we're all bigoted and ill-informed. No-one on this thread said all muslims are like this, but it's been said about 3 times in this thread that that isn't the case, just so we don't seem to sound ignorant. We all know that already, the fact we feel we have to say that speaks volumes about modern life. Les just protect ourselves from possibly offending someone, we don't want to sound like those ghastly nitwits that vogte BNP do we now?

 

As for robinski "covering everythig" he basically came out with the standard politcally correct speech on the subject. There is still a lot that hasn't been covered and I have a freedom to say it, I don't care if i isn't the opinion shared by the mods that over-zealously run this place (especially this sub-forum) and talk down to people that don't share the standard view or don't speak english very well.

The sensationalist crap annoys me too, I'm not buying into it but it doesn't mean that whats happening isn't. Its just being overplayed. There are still many immigrants that live of the welfare system with zero repsect for this country or it's culture, even though without it they might not be living such a comfortable life.

 

If loving his own country and standing up for it against people who would rather pose and wank themselves off as the "informed" kind that knows the truth and will stand up for the people in OP's post well then I'm guilty. If you'd rather blame people that inspire such dramatic hatred of our country than the people that buy into the sh*t the radicals spew, the same ignorant people that will use just about any excuse to attack our country for living differentlythen maybe you don't actually care about this country at all? Obviously you picked up on the fact it sounds more intelligent and well advised to have a go at ignorant, xenophobes than the human filfth that sh*t on the country with its desacration of war memorials and such. Well you came across just as how you wanted to, thank god you stopped us from having our stupid, pointless ill-advised debate. I'm sure Robinksi will give you a pat on the back. I apoligise for any bigotry on my part, obviously I hate the BNP, and I love all immigrants that come to our country. Of course reading the daily mail would have you believe that there are muslims in this country that abuse it daily, and have no respect for our culture while living as british citizens. But this is all rubbish written to anger people like myself, silly me for being so naive. I'm off to burn my english flag and tell myself we live in a terrible, capitalist country.

Edited by Vercetti27

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KilnerLUFC
2) Burning poppies is not illegal. You can express moral outrage all you want at it, but, save for in occasions where it could be interpreted as breach of the peace, it's not a fundamentally illegal act. Now, if you are arguing that there is some grounds for producing a law for use against individuals disrespecting the UK, then present that rather than just semantics- at least that's a logical line of argument.

I know it's not illegal, but surely it should be? I bet if I went to, say, Pakistan, and started burning something that offended their people, I'd be arrested for it. The point to this though is, why do the likes of the BNP get so much censor on them, and only get a mention when they step out of line, usually taken out of context, yet when someone such as Abu Hamza opens his mouth, he's all over the media and the news.

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sivispacem
2) Burning poppies is not illegal. You can express moral outrage all you want at it, but, save for in occasions where it could be interpreted as breach of the peace, it's not a fundamentally illegal act. Now, if you are arguing that there is some grounds for producing a law for use against individuals disrespecting the UK, then present that rather than just semantics- at least that's a logical line of argument.

I know it's not illegal, but surely it should be? I bet if I went to, say, Pakistan, and started burning something that offended their people, I'd be arrested for it. The point to this though is, why do the likes of the BNP get so much censor on them, and only get a mention when they step out of line, usually taken out of context, yet when someone such as Abu Hamza opens his mouth, he's all over the media and the news.

So, you're saying that we should be more like an oppressive quasi-police-state, run by powerful clans and the military in an incredibly corrupt and illiberal democracy, with almost no regard for the views or desires of the population? You would be arrested for it, yes, but do you really want that kind of governance? Look at Europe, look at Canada, Australia and the ex-Colonial territories. Do they have problems with Islamism about as serious as those in the UK? Yes, in most cases they do. Is their press filled with sensationalist bullsh*t, senseless rhetoric and deluded idiots spouting their bigoted diatribes off at the slightest provocation? Well, in some cases yes, but is it to the same extent that it is witnessed in the UK? No. These arguments always blow out of all proportion both the severity of Islamism in the UK, and it's frequency, and use it as some kind of blunt tool for so-called "patriots" to attack other cultures for no real reason other than an unexplained sense of indignation.

 

I put it to you that you are reading the wrong papers, first off. But to some extent it's a fair question- why is so much press attention given to Islamism over right-wing extremism in the UK? Well, I'll take your BNP example first. They're a political party- not a very good one, a very successful one or one with much support, but a party nonetheless. That implies that they do have a modicum of popularity, at least in certain parts of the UK. The "best way" to deal with far-right extremism is to deny it a platform from which to spread its message- which the media do, to some extent. Islamism is different- people aren't radicalised by reading about Islamic extremism in the papers- they're radicalised on the internet, in prisons, in universities or in small social groups. Press coverage is given to this so that the population can be aware that these instances are happening. Whatsmore, the thread posed by the BNP and the like is completely different to that of Islamic extremism. The BNP, to a greater or lesser extent, still want to function inside the confines of current political and social structures, and those that don't have neither the popularity, the training nor the materiel to conduct a "war" (if you wish to call it that) against Western society. This is not true of violent extremist groups, who possess all three of the hallmarks of true capability- support, motivation and resources. Ergo, they constitute a true "threat", whereas right-wing extremism does not unless it suddenly starts becoming much more violent.

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A J

Butters you ain't the only one mate, but you got to remember it isn't as bad as the papers like the daily mail make it out to be.

 

My girlfriend and her family came to the UK as muslim immigrants from Iran, they worked hard everyday whilst here, and still are whilst living in quite poor conditions.

They always speak of their distaste for other immigrants that come here and then take away our benefits and do no work (I'm fully aware there is enough fcking british idiots that feel no shame in never working a day in their life, that live off benefits too), with British people paying tax for the majority of their lives,they are basically looking after immigrants and their oversized families that have been here for just a few months and contributed nothing. The soft touch, and liberal do gooding society which we now live in, would never allow such an immigrant family to starve or suffer whilst here, why not? why can't we just say tough, you either work and earn your right to benefits or you suffer.

 

I'm sure this argument will get ripped apart by sivis and robinski, but never the less, I'm just getting something off my chest which I know a lot of people like butters are maybe feeling, we don't have any problem with the people that come here (very little point in branding us as racists etc), it's just the political system that is in place with which there is a major problem, to me it seems the goverment have very little courage or the god damn balls to openly speak out against it (immigration/benefits/unwillingness to accept british customs/learn the english language) or do something drastic about it, the fear of being branded a far right xenophobic racist bigot is probably what puts them off, politics is all about appealing to god damn everybody, and at the moment there is not a single major politician that would step out and do the right thing and what most people want.

 

I think if someone was going to stand for prime minister had the backing of a few rich friends, and spoke honestly, and was proud to call himself/herself British and openly declared that any Immigrants who protest against our soldiers, burn our poppies or define us as the infidel in their mosques, will be forcefully removed from our country, would be pushing Mr Cameron out of number 10 in no time, ain't ever going to happen, but it's my opinion.

 

Anyways I'm not the best person with words and expressions, so I apologise if it's a load of incomprehesive gobblydegook

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KilnerLUFC
I'm sure this argument will get ripped apart by sivis and robinski, but never the less, I'm just getting something off my chest which I know a lot of people like butters are maybe feeling, we don't have any problem with the people that come here (very little point in branding us as racists etc), it's just the political system that is in place with which there is a major problem, to me it seems the goverment have very little courage or the god damn balls to openly speak out against it (immigration/benefits/unwillingness to accept british customs/learn the english language) or do something drastic about it, the fear of being branded a far right xenophobic racist bigot is probably what puts them off, politics is all about appealing to god damn everybody, and at the moment there is not a single major politician that would step out and do the right thing and what most people want.

 

I think if someone was going to stand for prime minister had the backing of a few rich friends, and spoke honestly, and was proud to call himself/herself British and openly declared that any Immigrants who protest against our soldiers, burn our poppies or define us as the infidel in their mosques, will be forcefully removed from our country, would be pushing Mr Cameron out of number 10 in no time, ain't ever going to happen, but it's my opinion.

At the moment, a Goverment who were to stand up for British Pride would probably start to gain more votes. Just take a look at the last election, where the BNP gained a couple more seats. Now, it wasn't any major landmark in terms of politics, but in terms of society, this must say something. You get the young idiots who just 'believe' in the BNP because they are 'cool racist kids', but then you get the real ones who just see the BNP as a party who are trying to restore some pride back into this country, and put the hard working English person first. If you're telling me not to go by what is said in the news and media, then how do we know what the BNP are really like, without always getting taken out of context on the slight mention of them being racist. It seems that anyone who dares stand up for the pride of England gets jumped on and attacked, so we allow a Government who have basically opened the border and allowed millions of illegal immigrants into this country, happy to allow them to have massive families in houses paid by those who work, and not work at all or, even at the extreme, not conform to anything English. The BNP once mentioned about getting rid of illegal immigrants, and he got attacked for it and called racist.

 

Sickens me how the likes of Abu Hamza are claiming benefits, all the while preaching about their hatred for the West, and how Islam will take over.

 

 

So, you're saying that we should be more like an oppressive quasi-police-state, run by powerful clans and the military in an incredibly corrupt and illiberal democracy, with almost no regard for the views or desires of the population

 

Do you enjoy over-exaggerating and taking things out of context? What I want is a Government who stand behind the REAL British person, someone who is sick of all these hate preachers getting what they want in a country they prepare to 'destroy' with their extremist views, sick of seeing them get all the attention for ruining a day designed to remember some British War Hero, all the while forcing us to take down anything slightly related to showing our pride for England.

 

You mentioned about the 'white people' who are desocrating some war memorial in some way, but, and I know this can come across as exaggerated, but might not this be related to the lack of pride from this country, from the youth of today? I remember growing up in a village as a kid, and we had this 'feud' with the village next to us. Their way of getting at us was to graffiti the War Memorial in our village, which was seen as a massive disrespect to us. In all my life of living in that village, that was the only time it got vandalised.

 

Mult-culture can survive in cities, and I've personally witnessed it. The only people ruining it are the very people who claim to be behind this country, our own Government.

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leaflinks

We live in the Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland.

 

There is no such entity/territory as the English state, it is artificial and has been since the Union was founded. You can say I am wrong, but it is the truth.

 

England is more of a territory, not defined by the forty eight counties by law. In the Irish nation they have counties which are recognised by law with borders.

 

Just recently, in a small town/village in County Berkshire or Surrey, there was one resident Roger Henry, a black man who didn't like seeing the Union flag flying in the village on a flag pole because it reminded him of typical British national party rhetoric.

 

He had his view, but him being first a British citizen, the fact that he happens to be black shows that he doesn't feel welcomed in a Southern English town on the Island nation of Great Britain.

 

At the end of the day he has his rightful view, but it is a view that nobody agrees with in the town. It is the flag of the union so naturally there are those out there who are Unionist supporters than nationalist supporters or perhaps they are both, as strange as that is.

 

Where is his Unionist flag or national flag. Somebody could put that question to him.

 

There are those who are from a Southern Asian or Black/African or Carribean background who don't integrate or don't feel they can integrate because of a predominately White elistist society.

 

I'm personally an English republican nationalist/independence supporter, I'm not a unionist. I used to say I was British, as that was my citizenship, but I seperate the British and English, so I consider myself an English citizen as I'm from Southern England, the capital city.

 

There are others out there who are British republican nationalists. Or even just British republicans without the interest of a coherent national identity.

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Robinski
As for robinski "covering everythig" he basically came out with the standard politcally correct speech on the subject. There is still a lot that hasn't been covered and I have a freedom to say it, I don't care if i isn't the opinion shared by the mods that over-zealously run this place (especially this sub-forum) and talk down to people that don't share the standard view or don't speak english very well.

The sensationalist crap annoys me too, I'm not buying into it but it doesn't mean that whats happening isn't. Its just being overplayed. There are still many immigrants that live of the welfare system with zero repsect for this country or it's culture, even though without it they might not be living such a comfortable life.

See, here's one thing I don't get. The argument that gets all angry at a wvague whiff of"Political Correctness gone mad" is a complete strawman. At the very core, PC simply means not being a dick to people.It's not about wrapping people in cotton wool or hiding your identity. The main rule of PC is "don't act like a dickehad". But anyway, I digress.

 

This "stuff" (something we should really nail a definition for down) does happen, but it gets to distorted and manipulated by people with an agenda (whether that's hate or money) that whenever you hear about it it might as well be about geese on Mars for how close it is to the truth. And even then, in its inception it's usually an extremist on either side who couldn't form a coherent argument in his language of choice for love nor money.

 

As for the point that there are many immigrants who "live off the welfare system", that's dwarfed infinitely by the number of people who live off it as born or naturalised citizens. Both camps have people who are legitimately looking for work and can't find it (that is, the majority, both immigrants and citizens) and people who sponge. Next comes the argument that surely, if they aren't citizens, they don't have as much right to sponge as they haven't contributed, which gets you into the circular logic of "they're stealing our jobs". Not to mention the idea of Asylum seekers who it would be barbaric to turn away, even if they are incapable of work.

 

Just as an off topic point too. The mods here aren't unfair. because they have power does not mean that they have to have neutral views. i see nobody in this topic, or any other, that's been banned simply for their views. Hell, it'd be downright stupid to have a mod who is neutral on everything and didn't contribute, because where's the motivation for them then?

 

And as a final point. Anybody who unironically reads the Daily Mail needs to just get the f*ck out of this section. They've already proved an inability to think critically.

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A J

 

And as a final point. Anybody who unironically reads the Daily Mail needs to just get the f*ck out of this section. They've already proved an inability to think critically.

Lol inlove.gif this comment.

 

Anyhow don't bring the lazy british born citizens into this argument about immigrants and benefits, and the political party's lack of courage to stand up for Englishness and Christianity. They're irrelevant to the points being made, and whilst I'm not sure about the others, I'd be more than happy to kick out these scrouging scum along with the handful of freedom hating, hate preaching and advantage taking immigrants that flock to these shores once known as Great Britain...

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Dingdongs
Irviding, you starting to sound like a dick especially after you wrote this.

 

 

Muslims are easy to hate ever since 9/11

 

I respect people's culture and their beliefs. You are blaming a whole religion just because of a minority of idiots. You have that avatar "We will never forget" and there is a picture of the Twin Towers burning, but what about the Americans, Bin Laden didn't attack the Twin Towers out of the blue.

 

I am not saying that what he did was right.

 

But listen, I am not trying to be hostile or anything but your patriotism is making you ignorant. You are blind.

 

The Arabs/Muslims are not terrorists, you don't have to blame them for the actions of one.

 

The Arabs don't support Al-Qaeda in any way.

 

The Arabs hate Al-Qaeda as much as you do, they ruined our image of how we appear to the world.

 

Why don't you read his text again? You missed something.

What the 5 people who have called him out for misunderstanding my post are correct. It seems almost like vertical limit purposely went for that one statement, cut everything else I said out of the quote, and then attacked me on that. Not sure why. I don't believe English is his native language so if it was a genuine accident it's not a problem. Anyway, sorry for not contributing more than just clarfiying that b/c I am on my cell now but I don't think anything I said earlier was called into question anyway... this discussion is getting too British for me ph34r.gif

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Clem Fandango
Anyhow don't bring the lazy british born citizens into this argument about immigrants and benefits, and the political party's lack of courage to stand up for Englishness and Christianity. They're irrelevant to the points being made, and whilst I'm not sure about the others, I'd be more than happy to kick out these scrouging scum along with the handful of freedom hating, hate preaching and advantage taking immigrants that flock to these shores once known as Great Britain...

This sounds like a coherent political strategy, make they're kids feel totally helpless and marginalised, ship them off for being less than the rest of society. Could that lead to class and race based animosity? Would such animosity be detrimental to national pride? Almost certainly, yes.

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