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U.S.-Canadian Integration


bobgtafan

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Currently the United States and Canada have extremely good relations with each other (at least comparatively) and because of N.A.F.T.A they don't have to pay a tariff on most American goods and its the same the other way around. As a result we're the largest trading partners on earth, we have the longest unprotected border on earth and governmental cooperation and intergration most nations could only dream of. That said things could be better.

 

Right now the Obama admin. is thinking of making commerical vehicles pay a fee when entering the United States. Some on the Canadian side are threating a similar fee from American bound vehicles. It's only a budget proposal but also one that takes us one step closer to a less open and free border with our northern neighbor. I remember when back in 2003 I could get into and from Canada with only a birth certificate and even then most of the time they didn't even check. Even after 9/11 things were pretty good but now you have to have a passport which has kept my family from going (we're pretty lazy when it comes to going through governmental sh*t just to visit a place like Canada. Sure we could just get one but why bother when you could just go to New York, Denver etc.)

 

And that brings me to the first casuality of all of this. Casual tourism can't really happen anymore and many times that's all people want to do. It's not like you have to get on a plane or boat to get to Canada and from most places in the U.S. it's closer than other states and regions. Then there are the communities literally split in half by the arbitrary border that divides our two nations. Lastly cross border trade is becoming harder with the more rules and regulations continuing to be imposed.

 

So the question becomes what should be the proper level of intergration between the United States and Canada? In my mind I think it comes down to a few things.

 

All trade barriers such as any tax, duty or fee concerning the move of people or capital across borders

Free movement of all persons between Canada and the United States with no border stops

Intergration of the Department of Homeland Security and Citizenship and Immigration Office of Canada

 

Anything more than this would be robbing each nation of it's soverignity. Its not a European Union but it' arguably better.

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I think that would - and I'm just speaking off the top of my head here - be an absolute financial disaster.

 

We have very different ideologies when it comes to our finances, us and them thar states. I think our financial openness is what's already f*cking us. I can't buy a condo in my city because the vast majority are owned by foreign investors, and this has led to a ridiculous real estate bubble.

 

That said, if the borders were suddenly free and clear for trading, I could buy a foreclosed condo complex in Maui for what it'd cost to buy a sh*tty one bedroom apartment downtown Vancouver. Undercut all the current vacation rentals and be f*cking swimming in cash because all of a sudden Maui's a lot cheap to visit. Hell, I'd probably just live down there have of the year to boot. Maybe look into opening a studio down there and undercutting the competition.

 

Yeah. Me and 20 million other Canadians. Trust me. We're f*cking cold up here and we're just looking for the excuse to start living down there without actually having to be citizens of your scary government.

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without actually having to be citizens of your scary government.

 

Says the guy who lost faith in Canadian government a few months ago if I recall correctly. tounge.gif

 

And you guys can go hang with the real scary government in AZ. They have sh*tloads of open housing.

 

 

almost OT: I'm all for greater integration. I'd go so far as to amend the Constitution to allow for states to group under more formal regional compacts so that Canada could still get warm and fuzzy with itself and still be warm and fuzzy with the US.

 

OT: But... as we're bounded by the restraint of an apparent majority still opposing greater union... I would work to create some kind of common customs system to ease cross border travel for the average person. Flashing an ID or having a car scanned/photographed as I cross the border wouldn't be too ridiculous. Also trade between the US and Canada in terms of domestically produced goods should be as free flowing as the trade inside them. GM Canada shouldn't face too much in the way of restriction to ship to the rest of GM around the lakes.

 

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We've been within an inch of taking over Canada twice, during The War of 1812, and then during the Civil War when the British said they were going to recognize the south. We told them you recognize the south, we take Canada. They backed off smile.gif -- I think it's just not meant to be if you look at all the times we came so close, lol. And just to mention, many Canadians I speak to nowadays would rather become a British dominion again before joining with the US. They have more of an attachment to Britain it seems.

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We've been within an inch of taking over Canada twice, during The War of 1812, and then during the Civil War when the British said they were going to recognize the south. We told them you recognize the south, we take Canada. They backed off smile.gif -- I think it's just not meant to be if you look at all the times we came so close, lol. And just to mention, many Canadians I speak to nowadays would rather become a British dominion again before joining with the US. They have more of an attachment to Britain it seems.

You guys lost the War of 1812, and badly. I mean that in the sense that your attempt at taking Canada wasn't even kind of successful.

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We've been within an inch of taking over Canada twice, during The War of 1812, and then during the Civil War when the British said they were going to recognize the south. We told them you recognize the south, we take Canada. They backed off smile.gif -- I think it's just not meant to be if you look at all the times we came so close, lol. And just to mention, many Canadians I speak to nowadays would rather become a British dominion again before joining with the US. They have more of an attachment to Britain it seems.

You guys lost the War of 1812, and badly. I mean that in the sense that your attempt at taking Canada wasn't even kind of successful.

Americans didn't lose the War of 1812. It ended in status quo ante bellum, and actually Americans got a little bit out of the war, like British vessels disarming themselves in the Great lakes. But if the Napoleonic wars were still going on, and Britain was focused still, we'd have taken Canada.

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We've been within an inch of taking over Canada twice, during The War of 1812, and then during the Civil War when the British said they were going to recognize the south. We told them you recognize the south, we take Canada. They backed off smile.gif -- I think it's just not meant to be if you look at all the times we came so close, lol. And just to mention, many Canadians I speak to nowadays would rather become a British dominion again before joining with the US. They have more of an attachment to Britain it seems.

You guys lost the War of 1812, and badly. I mean that in the sense that your attempt at taking Canada wasn't even kind of successful.

Americans didn't lose the War of 1812. It ended in status quo ante bellum, and actually Americans got a little bit out of the war, like British vessels disarming themselves in the Great lakes. But if the Napoleonic wars were still going on, and Britain was focused still, we'd have taken Canada.

I'm pretty sure the British burning down the White House and the Capitol building say we did more damage to you guys than you did to us - besides that, like Mike said, you failed your primary objective, no matter what way you try and spin it. You guys also tried an invasion in 1775, which ended in disaster. The point is, the United States has never been successful in invading Canada. Before you pull the traditional, "If we did it tomorrow, we'd win" line, just remember your country is broke and really can't afford anymore war for the time being.

 

As for the free movement between the United States and Canada, it will never happen, especially since the Department of Homeland Security likes to paint Canada as a terrorist haven and that we let in all the bad guys that CBP would deny on the spot. A good relationship is fairly essential in terms of trade, since we are the biggest trading partners in the world, but I personally don't see the need for anything more than that... but that's just me.

 

[EDIT] Huge grammar fix.

Edited by Icarus
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Oh, it depends entirely on the objectives of a war. Actually capturing and holding Canadian territory? Yeah, that's a lost cause. Just not going to work for US. Simply bombing the crap out of Canadian infrastructure and letting the people freeze to death in the winter? That can be done at no expense. Just write it off as a military exercises for USAF.

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and then during the Civil War when the British said they were going to recognize the south. We told them you recognize the south, we take Canada. They backed off smile.gif

Actually, the main thing that made the UK lose interest in supporting the Confederacy was the Emancipation Proclamation.

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and then during the Civil War when the British said they were going to recognize the south. We told them you recognize the south, we take Canada. They backed off smile.gif

Actually, the main thing that made the UK lose interest in supporting the Confederacy was the Emancipation Proclamation.

No it was the fact that the Confederacy started losing AND that the North was anti slavery. In any case...

 

I don't care about military domination because regardless if in 1775 or 1812 it didn't work who cares because we're not invading Canada today and no one even remotely supports that insane idea. No the right thing to do is intergration.

 

 

Yeah. Me and 20 million other Canadians. Trust me. We're f*cking cold up here and we're just looking for the excuse to start living down there without actually having to be citizens of your scary government.

Yeah because with your weak foreign policy, minority lead government, and massive environmental degradation from Shale oil we're all dying to live up their too sarcasm.gif No offense but all governments and societies have problems. And no one is saying that all Canadians want to live in the United States, but sense over 80 percent of your nations population lives within 150 miles of our border and considering more than 16 million of your fellow citizens come into the United States each year to visit, this would probably do more good for someone in Vancover than say Texas.

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Icarus, we really are not broke. The deficit is high because of lower tax revenues. Once this business cycle ends, and we pull totally out of Iraq at the end of 2011 (thank god) we'll be just as rich as we were before Bush's idiotic reign.

 

No, it wasn't. The Emancipation Proclamation was written because of when, in 62' the British were very close to recognizing and supporting the south. The Union threatened to invade Canada, and the British backed off. After the win at Antietam, the Emancipation Proclamation was announced. You might learn that in British schools, it was because the British hated slavery and decided to join the North. Not so.

 

And again, no one really cared much for DC in 1812. It was simply made that way (the capital of the country) to appease Southerners at the Constitutional convention. The real center of America was Philadelphia and NY at the time, neither of which were even touched by British invasion.

 

Again, Canadian integration would be cool. I know plenty of Canadians around my age who are almost exactly the same culturally. Infact, 3 of them didn't even know Queen Elizabeth was still their head of state.

Edited by Irviding
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minority lead government

Majority government since May 2011, thank you.

 

wink.gif

 

As for weak foreign policy, Canada opened up relations with the People's Republic of China before the United States, we acted as a mediator between the USSR and the US during the Cold War and we opened up relations with Cuba in 1976 against the wishes of the United States. I'd say we're on the ball in foreign policy, but it's a shame our current Minister of Foreign Affairs is a goddamn moron.

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I would wish that it could re-integrate with Britain again but unfortunately it seems not anybody would like that. It's their loss. Canada can become the US bitch just like the UK has become. I am sick of it. We need our Empire back.

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Canada can become the US bitch just like the UK has become.

Going a little off-topic here, but by what measure has the United Kingdom become quote America's bitch end quote? I've heard people make this exact same statement for about a decade now, and it's no closer to being true now than it was back then.

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No, it wasn't. The Emancipation Proclamation was written because of when, in 62' the British were very close to recognizing and supporting the south. The Union threatened to invade Canada, and the British backed off. After the win at Antietam, the Emancipation Proclamation was announced. You might learn that in British schools, it was because the British hated slavery and decided to join the North. Not so.

I wasn't taught American history at school, it's mostly self researched and I aren't interested in my country having a glorious history, just the truth. However there was never any public threat of invasion by the North in this circumstance. People believe it was thought about internally but it seemed like tactical suicide to go to war with the British/Canadians whilst there was the potential of civil war.

The reasons the Emancipation Proclamation warded off the Europeans wasn't to do with them 'hating slavery', it was simply because they didn't want to seem hypocritical on the stance since they themselves recently abolished it.

 

But yeah, everywhere I've researched there has never actually been anything more than just the US contemplating threatening them. If you can provide substantial evidence otherwise I'd be happy to accept it, since I'm only after the truth and not lying to myself to pretend my nation's history is perfect.

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You are telling me you cannot find any historical evidence that the union threatened to invade Canada and that stopped Britain from recognizing the south?

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The impetus is on you to prove the fact. Not for him to prove the absence of a fact.

 

Britain in the American Civil War -wiki

 

The good wikipedia would suggest that at best Britain was worried at the potential for loss of Canada if they recognized the Confederacy. On the American side I see that the U.S. ambassador to Britain warned Washington what he thought likely to happen if Britain recognized the Confederacy which included his belief that the U.S. would invade Canada. Neither really qualifies in my mind as an overt threat of invasion.

 

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  • 4 weeks later...
The impetus is on you to prove the fact. Not for him to prove the absence of a fact.

 

Britain in the American Civil War -wiki

 

The good wikipedia would suggest that at best Britain was worried at the potential for loss of Canada if they recognized the Confederacy. On the American side I see that the U.S. ambassador to Britain warned Washington what he thought likely to happen if Britain recognized the Confederacy which included his belief that the U.S. would invade Canada. Neither really qualifies in my mind as an overt threat of invasion.

 

Rown rampage_ani.gif

Again, that's wrong. Look at what John Quincy Adams' son Charles told the British. He specifically said the North would taken Canada. That's why after the Civil War, Canada was granted Dominion status so it would no longer look like as much of a British loss if Canada were taken. I will concede however, that apart from Canada, Britain lost much of their necessity to recognize the south since they took over India fully and established the protectorate over Egypt to make up for the loss of cotton. (better quality cotton from those places anyway).

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Canada became a dominion for many reasons, but it is true they felt somewhat threatened by the massive Union army after the war, not before. The post war Union had something like a million plus experienced troops specifically because they mobilized for the Civil War, you can't say that invasion before the war was seriously threatened or was something the British were really concerned about. You're mixing and matching facts to fit your view, just like when you suggested the Civil War was about Slavery and nothing else, which is frankly ignorant as hell.

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Canada became a dominion for many reasons, but it is true they felt somewhat threatened by the massive Union army after the war, not before. The post war Union had something like a million plus experienced troops specifically because they mobilized for the Civil War, you can't say that invasion before the war was seriously threatened or was something the British were really concerned about. You're mixing and matching facts to fit your view, just like when you suggested the Civil War was about Slavery and nothing else, which is frankly ignorant as hell.

How can you argue against that? Charles? Quincy Adams specifically threatened Canda when he was ambassador.

 

And no, it's not. It was all about slavery. That's it. It all stemmed from slavery, or led to slavery. Aristocratic landowners who developed an agrarian culture centyrted around tobacco (later cotton) = conflict with industrializng, urban north. Transcendentslist beliefs in the north being propagated, etc. The war has its roots in a different culture, leading to slavery. States rights? Yeah, to have slaves. The war was not just about freeing the slaves though.. Lincoln was no abolitionist. It came out of the disagreement of extending slavery to the western territories, the nullification of the 36 30 line, and finally, appeassement of the south by the dough faces. South Carolina says specifically that they are worried Lincoln wil free the slaves so they left. How is slavery not the central cause? Every other cause either leads to slavery, or stems from it.

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