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The Environments (Cities, Countryside, etc.)


grope_4_that_date

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grope_4_that_date

 

The Environments (Cities, Countryside, Etc.)

Using Illusions to Trick Us

 

user posted image

 

Point:

 

Do the cities in GTA5 have to be as big as Liberty City? or will smaller 'representations' of cities work better? (Like San Andreas)

 

Introduction:

I say 'Small representations'. I don't think the cities in GTA5 have to be as big as GTA4. In fact, if they are, I strongly think the next game will suffer. More importantly, GTA5 cannot have just a city and a countryside. It has to be more like San Andreas or Red Dead Redemption. Basically, they need to use optical illusions.

 

Illusions:

 

Red Dead Redemption is the best example of a game that uses this strategy. In West Elizabeth, the smallest part of the map, they were able to include a swamp, a forest, a snowy mountain, a city, the great plains, three camps, a basin, and a lot more worth checking out.

 

Smaller Cities means More Environments

 

Just look at Red Dead Redemption. They had the smallest cities known to any Free Roam Rockstar Game, and I personally loved it. I got less bored playing in Las Hermans than Liberty City as a whole!

 

San Andreas isn't any different. San Fierro, Las Venturas and Los Santos didn't feel like small cities. Plus, compared to new York, Liberty City was about the size as the Bronx.

 

In conclusion, I don't expect GTA5 to have one giant city like Liberty City in GTA4. I expect it to be more like San Andreas.

 

Think of it this way:

 

What would you like to explore more: a desert or a jungle? (This is obviously a rhetorical question.) A desert would be boring because it's all the same. Well, for arguing sake, I would say GTA4 is a desert and San Andreas is the jungle. A jungle you can get lost in. You can discover new things and explore. Obviously GTA4 was fun, but for me it looked all too much the same. It was a concrete desert.

Edited by grope_4_that_date
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Ya look at red county for example it is close to bone county. Normally you do not find a forest near a desert and not to mention the forests in San Andreas did not have much trees either. What rockstar needs to do in the next game is have the transition from city to forest or from forest to desert be a bit smother. and not only that las venturas was surrounded by water normally in places like that you do not find a desert.

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The cities never have to get as big as LC,

 

Its all the really familiar and popular sites that keep us entertained, with big open plains inbetween so we can really explore and travel to different cities with different vibes. A small island the size of one island in Liberty City would be enough for say even Jamrock in my opinion.

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grope_4_that_date

I think the problem with Liberty City was a lot of it looked the same. There needs to be different varieties within the city, such as Middle Park, the ports in Alderney, Colony Island, the park in Dukes, the Statue of Happiness... and I can't even think of any others.

 

Possible areas within the city include, parks, zoos, golf courses, arcades, malls, etc.

Edited by grope_4_that_date
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Good subject buddy icon14.gif It seems people go for share size wanting a map 5x this of 10x that, without thinking of the drawbacks of having such a large expansive map. A bigger map area means one of two things ether you cut back on content and graphics, or RockStar has best of both worlds but stumps XBPX 360 users by having the 360 version on to discs. Remember while PS3 is lucky it comes with a higher capacity BluRay disc drive out of the box, while the xbox 360 only uses a DVD drive. I don't think Rockstar wants to alienate 360 users.

 

I'm always for substance over content GTA IV rendition of Liberty city was impressive but some areas felt lacking. alderney for instance just felt boring and dull, compared to algonquin broker dukes and bohan, it just felt tacked on for the sake of having more scale. I think RockStar can reign GTA V in a bit if it means a city that is more diversive with more intresting place to see.

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well in gta IV Niko bellic was more of a hitman not really a gang banger like in gta sa. Even though there are ghettos in gta iv bohan for example there wouldnt be 15 ballas running after him or shooting him whenever he is in the neighborhood. zoos would not be in a gta game because this is gta not postal 2 you dont need to be running around killing animals. malls would have been a good idea for alderney but in gta vc the only fun thing about the mall was that you can just shoot a bunch of people other than that there was not to much to do in the malls.

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grope_4_that_date

A zoo needs to be in Grand Theft Auto. Animals running wild? If not an active zoo, and abandoned zoo could also work.

Edited by grope_4_that_date
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Wait a minute. What does any of that have to do with optical illusions? This looks more like a location suggestion/wishlist topic to me. confused.gif

pkmTc.gif

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grope_4_that_date

 

Wait a minute. What does any of that have to do with optical illusions? This looks more like a location suggestion/wishlist topic to me. confused.gif

When I said 'optical ilusions' I meant using multiple environments in a small location, without causing suspicion that something is strange or unrealistic.

 

Maybe I just meant illusion, not optical illusion, however those types of illusions work too.

 

HOWEVER:

 

The major point of this topic is this: We don't need giant cities like Liberty City. There needs to be multiple small cities like Red Dead Redemption and San Andreas.

Edited by grope_4_that_date
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Grope 4 that date - I think you were subconsciously on the mark lol - GTA4 employs a wideangle slight 'fish-eye' lense in bumper cam view which makes things look futher away than they really are (compare to 3rd person view to see what I mean). So does looking up at Niko with the camera low, accentuating tall buildings.

 

Anyone else noticed the higher you get with the chopper over LC the more the 'fish-eye' lense is used ?

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The San Andreas location for me would have to be one of my favourite maps, I preferred the Cities being spread out with countryside or desert in between them and each city having it's own airport. I'd much rather the new location be comprised of multiple cities rather than just one big one split into islands.

 

Rockstar don't neccessary have to use an optical illusion, but merely not do a city as large as what they did with Liberty City, but I can't really see that being an issue as they've done LC now and with the experience they've got from Red Dead, I think we should see a pretty decent map.

 

@SCLASS, yeah I have noticed the higher you get in a helicopter the more fish-eyed the view gets.

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in gta sa there was a lot of repetitive interirors and this is one of the reasons why they had gta iv be in one city.

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GTA:SA employed a lot of trickery to make the map seem a lot larger than it really was.

 

Trick 1 was to use the landscape (i.e. high ground aka hills and mountains) to mask one part of the map from another. That way, when you're stood in - say Dillmore - it seems like you're in the middle of the countryside when in reality you're on the edge of Los Santos.

 

Trick 2 was to avoid providing too many direct routes between cities. Narrow roads twist and wind whereas wide fast roads tend to take long indirect routes. Natural barriers such as rivers and sheer cliff faces try to prevent you going cross country as the crow flies - at least until late on in the game when you're allowed to fly. Otherwise, the only true direct route was the freeway between Las Venturas and Los Santos which only becomes available in the last third of the game.

 

Trick 3 was to have vehicles drive much slower than in real life. This extended journey times and made it seem like you were travelling further than you were. Then the cherry on top of this particular proverbial cake was to add a blur effect when you reached "high" speeds to give you the impression that you were driving fast.

 

Trick 4 which has already been alluded to in the thread is to carefully separate differing types of terrain (i.e. desert and green countryside) by using water courses and/or cliff faces. This breaks up differing types of land without looking too forced or contrived.

 

Imagine how big San Andreas could have been if these illusions hadn't been needed. Distances between the cities could have been increased resulting in far more countryside. By using straighter more direct routes and car speeds that were scaled normally, journey times could have been kept the same, but the map would have been much larger. Of course, this is more area that Rockstar would have had to create and it's possible that disk capacity could become an issue.

 

Still. What could have been, eh? biggrin.gif

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Shayan Shaffey

Another Great topic grope icon14.gif. I agree with you, west elizabeth seemed HUGE to me. I love mountains in free-roam games, I hope R* puts mountains in V

user posted image
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grope_4_that_date

 

The San Andreas location for me would have to be one of my favourite maps, I preferred the Cities being spread out with countryside or desert in between them and each city having it's own airport. I'd much rather the new location be comprised of multiple cities rather than just one big one split into islands.

 

Rockstar don't neccessary have to use an optical illusion, but merely not do a city as large as what they did with Liberty City, but I can't really see that being an issue as they've done LC now and with the experience they've got from Red Dead, I think we should see a pretty decent map.

This was exactly my point. (I said 'Illusions' to say it could be used as a tool to achieve this goal. ) I don't expect to see just one city. I expect to see something more similar to Red Dead Redemption and San Andreas. Multiple smaller cities with a variety of environments.

 

That's the way it has to be! Liberty City didn't work because it was all the same. You could make Liberty City's map twice as big, and it would still be boring compared to RDR and San Andreas.

Edited by grope_4_that_date
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Finn 7 five 11

An illusion just like your use of oversized text to make it look like you put loads of text and effort into your post? Is that why you use the oversized text?

 

Yes this is a good idea, in fact its just common sense really, i don't see why it was removed in GTA IV, even GTA III had the ghost city in the distance.

Even though i did say this was a good idea, it doesn't leave much room for discussion, and is does seem a little bit wishlisty, so i think you made the extra effort for nothing, i always have to scroll sideways or just minimize the page anyway, so its pointless.

Edited by finn4life
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Well according to Alicia Keys, It's actually a concrete jungle. lol

 

But yeah I agree, I hope they go the San Andreas route. At least not another Liberty City type, make it Egypt if you have to suicidal.gif

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I totally agree with pretty much everything that has been said in this thread, with the exception of snowy mountains in RDR where the transition was pretty lame in my opinion, it was like crossing a line and then the ground was covered in snow.

 

But yeah, San Andreas tricked us perfectly, and I hope they will use the same kind of tricks in the next game.

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Ok, I've been reading this and it seems it ended up more like a location suggestion that an actual optical illusion.

 

When I read the title of this thread I thought you were talking about the same thing I noticed in Driver San Francisco that I've being playing lately (fanboys comments will be ignored).

 

If you are on the Golden Gate Park (or any other place where you can have a panoramic view) and look at Downtown direction, for example, the city at distance looks like it was blurred on the horizontal direction, making it look broader, and so making it look like it actually has the size of San Francisco.

 

Before someone say that it still look bigger because it has surrounding areas like GTA San Andreas, this is the reason I chose a place inside San Francisco itself to prove. Remember, Driver's version of San Francisco is still much bigger than San Fierro was, but it looks even bigger because of this trick.

 

Can't take screenshots right now cuz I'm far from my games right now, but I can take some later...

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I've said before that the following should happen.

 

A. Two major cities one the size of Alderney the other the size of Bohan

B. A map the size of San Andreas

C. 6 small towns each with a different feel

D. A map that's not square but the shape of whatever state/region the game is modelling.

E. A detailed countryside with animals

 

A countryside without animals would be an injustice to that environment.

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The "optical illusion" is making the game world feel bigger than it is. A game map is very small compared to the real world and the variety of environments in a small area is unrealistic. It's an amazing trick to hide the fakeness in an open world game, to be able to stand anywhere on the map and see more of the same environment in every direction when there's a completely different area very close by. There has to be a believable transition when you move from one area to another and that transition area has to look as good as every other part of the map. Rockstar is better at this than anybody.

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LateForTheSky

What happens if they go to vice city next? How are we going to get different types of environments (ie, cities, countryside etc)? Personally i'd like to see Vice City, Las Ventures and San Fierro put together. Separated by airports or whatever. The distance between for example vice city and las ventures could be disguised by not being able to get from one place to another unless above a certain altitude. So you could take a commercial flight and enjoy the view as you travel but couldnt take a normal helicopter for a five minute jaunt across the entire country. You could also use your own personal jet plane. Which would be totally awesome.

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What happens if they go to vice city next? How are we going to get different types of environments (ie, cities, countryside etc)? Personally i'd like to see Vice City, Las Ventures and San Fierro put together. Separated by airports or whatever. The distance between for example vice city and las ventures could be disguised by not being able to get from one place to another unless above a certain altitude. So you could take a commercial flight and enjoy the view as you travel but couldnt take a normal helicopter for a five minute jaunt across the entire country. You could also use your own personal jet plane. Which would be totally awesome.

Hmm... maybe I'm a bit coo-coo, but if Rockstar are deciding to put multiple locations in the whole country, then this would be a great trick. You can fly through a bunch of plains from let's say Los Santos and pass 5 miles of forest and then end up in San Fierro, but you really felt that you traveled a lot more. This would be great if they were to make California again. That way, there would be no need for water isolating cities.

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Either way, it has to be quality over quantity or a balance in between those two.




tumblr_mk683ddOTs1rkv9cvo1_250.gif

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If you are on the Golden Gate Park (or any other place where you can have a panoramic view) and look at Downtown direction, for example, the city at distance looks like it was blurred on the horizontal direction, making it look broader, and so making it look like it actually has the size of San Francisco.

Actually, thats because we're only in a portion of San Francisco, You can see other bits of the city when you zoom out in Shift far back enough when you're in the bottom right of the map.

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Sorry for late answer, just got back to my PC today...

 

 

If you are on the Golden Gate Park (or any other place where you can have a panoramic view) and look at Downtown direction, for example, the city at distance looks like it was blurred on the horizontal direction, making it look broader, and so making it look like it actually has the size of San Francisco.

Actually, thats because we're only in a portion of San Francisco, You can see other bits of the city when you zoom out in Shift far back enough when you're in the bottom right of the map.

I don't know if I understood this right (or understood anything tounge.gif), but this is what I actually meant.

 

Pay close attention to the Marin portion of the Golden Gate, notice how it's blurred compared to near place, even a dark gray line can be seen around it (it's not that noticeable when in movement). Notice that it's also on the horizontal direction, it doesn't happen this way on the vertical. Actually the SF portion of the Golden Gate is also blurred, but the farrer it gets, more blurry it becomes. Pay attention to the land behind it too.

user posted image

 

Here Downtown can be seen from Twin Peaks. Notice the border around Transamerica Building and other buildings.

user posted image

 

Here is Downtown seen from the City Hall. Notice that the buildings aren't that far and even this way they receive the same graphic treatment.

user posted image

 

Just another picture showing Transamerica, this time from north.

user posted image

 

The last ones to compare. Here's San Francisco seen from Marin (Transamerica Building is awesome for reference tounge.gif). See the distance (marked) from Transamerica to the last building.

user posted image

 

Now see the real game distance.

user posted image

 

Just as a comparision, check the distance between these building in Google Maps (just please imagine a straight line like the ones on the screenshot). The blocks are actually smaller on game, but with this trick it looks bigger like the real thing.

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Sorry for late answer, just got back to my PC today...

 

 

If you are on the Golden Gate Park (or any other place where you can have a panoramic view) and look at Downtown direction, for example, the city at distance looks like it was blurred on the horizontal direction, making it look broader, and so making it look like it actually has the size of San Francisco.

Actually, thats because we're only in a portion of San Francisco, You can see other bits of the city when you zoom out in Shift far back enough when you're in the bottom right of the map.

I don't know if I understood this right (or understood anything tounge.gif), but this is what I actually meant.

 

Pay close attention to the Marin portion of the Golden Gate, notice how it's blurred compared to near place, even a dark gray line can be seen around it (it's not that noticeable when in movement). Notice that it's also on the horizontal direction, it doesn't happen this way on the vertical. Actually the SF portion of the Golden Gate is also blurred, but the farrer it gets, more blurry it becomes. Pay attention to the land behind it too.

user posted image

 

Here Downtown can be seen from Twin Peaks. Notice the border around Transamerica Building and other buildings.

user posted image

 

Here is Downtown seen from the City Hall. Notice that the buildings aren't that far and even this way they receive the same graphic treatment.

user posted image

 

Just another picture showing Transamerica, this time from north.

user posted image

 

The last ones to compare. Here's San Francisco seen from Marin (Transamerica Building is awesome for reference tounge.gif). See the distance (marked) from Transamerica to the last building.

user posted image

 

Now see the real game distance.

user posted image

 

Just as a comparision, check the distance between these building in Google Maps (just please imagine a straight line like the ones on the screenshot). The blocks are actually smaller on game, but with this trick it looks bigger like the real thing.

Impressive indeed. I could definitely see Rockstar doing this if they were to let's say, re-create Los Santos or Vice City.

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