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FoxtrotZulu

What happened to Carl Johnson, did he get killed?

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JustRob

I don't know about that. The government already knows about Toreno's actions, or at the very least, suspects them. He said that he got five guys watching him all the time. Also, why did Toreno employ CJ? To do things he couldn't get caught doing. In other words, there's no proof of Toreno's involvement in any of CJ's missions, and so even if CJ would drop his name, who would believe him?

 

And yeah Toreno did state the Russians had bigger things to worry about. But remember, he said that at the beginning of Interdiction, at that time the only thing CJ had done was steal that truck. After Toreno said that, CJ goes on to sabotage the government further, infiltrating their bases and stealing / destroying their property. It's highly likely that capturing CJ rised up in their priority list, though I agree it wouldn't be their highest priority. But high enough to send a few teams of government agents after CJ.

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Dark_side646

If Toreno was that much worried about getting caught doing everything that CJ did, that must mean the government was after the smallest opportunity to hold something against him. If CJ rats him out, why would they not want to believe him? Hiring 5 people to spy on Toreno must mean that his enemies are really desperate to catch him doing everything he made CJ do. If CJ bears witness to Toreno's involvement in all those scenarios, that would be mission accomplished for Toreno's enemies. Not only would they believe him, they'd be sure to use CJ's words as clear evidence against Toreno.

 

If CJ's actions made him one of the government's top priorities, it only means that after CJ testifies against Toreno, he becomes a greater priority of the government than CJ. Seriously, with 5 people watching him, at least one of them must have seen him and CJ together. With him having already done something bad enough that he couldn't get caught doing everything he made CJ do, said 5 people and Toreno's enemies would be sure to use CJ's testimony as their biggest weapon in order to take Toreno down. With so much on the line, why should Toreno not be worried about CJ's safety and, hence, his own?

Edited by Dark_side646

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lil weasel

You forgot to mention that if he changes his shirt or pants he won't be wanted, too.

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UbK_families

cj is still alive he just not active no more he changed his life he been stopped bangin since 03 he gettin legit money now

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UbK_families

NO he still alive just not banging no more

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BabeRuth

uh no dude thats wrong he said "I'll call you" when you are done with that Liberty Cities Mission in SA.

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Suction Testicle Man

Please continue discussion in this thread.

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WhistleBlower

I'd like to think that CJ got himself captured by government agents one night and is spending the rest of his days on a prison island or something similar. His disappearance becomes fuel for the fire that is a massive conspiracy theory mentioning Area 69, if not some other stuff that he did back in 1992. So now Denise moves to Liberty City to try and get away from everything. But the phone call she made during the events of Liberty City Stories was actually referencing her new boyfriend, someone other than CJ, that was looking into these conspiracy theories. What do you think?

Edited by WhistleBlower

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lil weasel

?... Denise or Catalina...?

It is difficult to know what's going on in games unowned nor played.

Edited by lil weasel

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WhistleBlower
?... Denise or Catalina...?

Denise was the one who called in. So, yeah, Denise...

 

Catalina is doing her own thing with Claude.

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JustRob
If Toreno was that much worried about getting caught doing everything that CJ did, that must mean the government was after the smallest opportunity to hold something against him. If CJ rats him out, why would they not want to believe him? Hiring 5 people to spy on Toreno must mean that his enemies are really desperate to catch him doing everything he made CJ do. If CJ bears witness to Toreno's involvement in all those scenarios, that would be mission accomplished for Toreno's enemies. Not only would they believe him, they'd be sure to use CJ's words as clear evidence against Toreno.

 

If CJ's actions made him one of the government's top priorities, it only means that after CJ testifies against Toreno, he becomes a greater priority of the government than CJ. Seriously, with 5 people watching him, at least one of them must have seen him and CJ together. With him having already done something bad enough that he couldn't get caught doing everything he made CJ do, said 5 people and Toreno's enemies would be sure to use CJ's testimony as their biggest weapon in order to take Toreno down. With so much on the line, why should Toreno not be worried about CJ's safety and, hence, his own?

I don't know man. I think Toreno covered himself up pretty good. Besides, he seemed to have a lot of power of his own, being able to make big decisions such as Sweet being released from jail.

 

I don't think Toreno would have employed CJ if he thought it could cost him is head were he caught. Remember how much caution Toreno takes. He only appears out in the open for short moments, very briefly to explain what needs be done. Remember how he was watching CJ with all those cameras and speakers and sh*t.

 

Besides, in the end CJ is nothing but a gangbanging criminal. Toreno is a man with strong influence on the government. Even if CJ accuses him and some secret agents would believe him, it'd be his word against Toreno's. And besides it's not clear evidence if Toreno was never caught on speaker or camera, which he wasn't.

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lil weasel

Consider what you are saying and the use of the words "The Government".

A government is a Body. The body is composed of organs.

Think of the organs as the People.

Then insert the people who ‘work’ for that government as Virus' and Cancers. Some good; most bad.

The sheep just want to eat, sleep, and have fun. The ‘Government’ wants to control the sheep and feed off them just for the fun of it. (ref: 1984, De Sade, Brave New World, etc.)

.The only thing that Toreno would worry about is the In-Fighting between the governments various cancers.

Any department that felt underfunded or left out of the power grid would start something. Like a President that is having unflatering press would create some upheaval in the world to distract attention.

It’s very Rare that any government agency will allow trouble to sit on it’s own door stoop.

It’s more likely that an out-of-control crime mob would take action against another criminal (CJ).

Don’t forget CJ is a psycho Killer.

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WhistleBlower
It is difficult to know what's going on in games unowned nor played.

I was just explaining what I thought happened to CJ. But I guess I lost everyone when I went down the whole massive conspiracy route, lol.

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Dark_side646

 

I think Toreno covered himself up pretty good. Besides, he seemed to have a lot of power of his own, being able to make big decisions such as Sweet being released from jail.

How could you say that Toreno can cover himself pretty good if he leaves a key red-herring, like CJ, defenseless and out in the open? Wouldn't he use said power to make sure that prying eyes are kept away from CJ and, hence, from himself?

 

 

I don't think Toreno would have employed CJ if he thought it could cost him is head were he caught.

Which would justify the need for Toreno to ensure that nobody gets to CJ. If the government is smart enough track down the disappearance of a missing fighter jet to the slums of a gang ridden area, then they'd surely be able to track down the man behind it all.

 

 

Remember how much caution Toreno takes.

Having done something to get 5 people watching his every move suggests otherwise.

 

 

He only appears out in the open for short moments, very briefly to explain what needs be done.

Good enough time for the aforementioned 5 people to catch them together.

 

 

Besides, in the end CJ is nothing but a gangbanging criminal. Toreno is a man with strong influence on the government.

So if the government fails to catch a strong man with an influence, the only other alternative is a petty street thug?

 

 

Even if CJ accuses him and some secret agents would believe him, it'd be his word against Toreno's.

If even one of the said secret agents is among Toreno's enemies or among the people watching over him then Toreno is done for. They wouldn't care if CJ is telling them the truth or not. You don't usually get gang-bangers knowing about a secret agent, let alone blaming him for their crimes. They'd go straight for Toreno or contact the people spying on him.

 

 

And besides it's not clear evidence if Toreno was never caught on speaker or camera, which he wasn't.

How do you know that? The man had 5 people watching him at all times. With 5 people working on the same motive, if the government can't get a single evidence of CJ and Toreno together, then CJ has nothing to fear.

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MyDog

Let me ask you a question, Dark side. Were you at any point of your life called Paul Gugliotta?

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Dark_side646

Pardon my ignorance, but what does this have to do with anything?

Edited by Dark_side646

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JustRob

Anyway the point is I think the government would suspect CJ rather then Toreno. It was CJ who stole that fighter jet. It was CJ who infiltrated Area 69 (which Toreno had nothing to do with), it was CJ who killed government agents on an aircraft and blew it up. CJ is the one who got caught with his hand in the cookie jar.

 

If Toreno knew or even suspected that his enemies would find out about him and CJ, then there is no way he would have gone through the trouble of making CJ do all that crap. No matter what CJ says or what Toreno's enemies believe, there is no proof of Toreno's involvement. Even if he and CJ were caught on satellite or camera, then it still wouldn't be clear evidence.

 

Besides, remember Toreno is also part of the government. He has people who work with him and he has a superior he answers to. Surely these people would also try to ensure that Toreno does not get caught.

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WhistleBlower

I don't think it was ever explained which government agency Mike Toreno worked for. Anyone have any ideas?

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JustRob

Nah but we do at least know that he has a superior who doesn't agree with Toreno's methods.

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Germturtle

Once again, until R* says that CJ is dead, I'm not speculating, fan fiction is great, but he's dead when a III era game says he's dead.

 

@UbK_families- How is your worship of CJ acceptable, but in the Vercetti version of this thread it's cool to say this (not sure how to quote from a different thread, so it's a copy/paste job)

 

all u tommy dick riders can go dig up his grave and bounce on it

 

http://www.gtaforums.com/index.php?showtop...3231&st=100&hl=

 

Just in case you want to check your facts.

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JustRob

Well obviously we're never going to really find out what happened to the GTAIII era gang including CJ, but I always find it interesting to discuss and speculate on what might have happened to certain characters.

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Germturtle
Well obviously we're never going to really find out what happened to the GTAIII era gang including CJ, but I always find it interesting to discuss and speculate on what might have happened to certain characters.

I can live with speculation, but when people start talking like it's fact, I get annoyed.

 

I think he made it, he's living the dream, and I think Toreno would have kept him alive, better to have a anti-drug criminal you know rather than a dangerous pusher out there, CJ is the lesser of 2 evils.

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Raptomex

The mob doesn't mess around. But I still think CJ is alive.

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Dark_side646

 

Anyway the point is I think the government would suspect CJ rather then Toreno.

Just because they didn’t suspect Toreno at first doesn’t mean they won’t when CJ testifies.

 

 

CJ is the one who got caught with his hand in the cookie jar.

Toreno forced his hand in said “cookie jar”. So I repeat, if the government is shrewd enough to track all those things to the slums of a petty gang ridden area, why could they not also track the real man behind it all?

 

Not to mention, if the government couldn't track the culprit behind a missing tank and missile technology chips in 1986 (since he's doing quite well 6 years from then), I doubt they’ll have any such luck in 1992.

 

 

If Toreno knew or even suspected that his enemies would find out about him and CJ, then there is no way he would have gone through the trouble of making CJ do all that crap.

How could he do so, if people have evidence of his involvement with CJ, even if for brief periods? He could always take measures to cover his tracks afterwards, something that would also involve protecting CJ. Wouldn’t it be easier to hide and protect CJ from his enemies than to convince CJ not to mention him or to convince his enemies of his innocence if CJ does so?

 

 

Even if he and CJ were caught on satellite or camera, then it still wouldn't be clear evidence.

Besides the fact that CJ always did something to get the government onto him shortly after meeting Toreno. An evidence, further strengthened by CJ’s inevitable testimony. Good enough, if not for the government then at least for Toreno’s enemies.

 

 

Surely these people would also try to ensure that Toreno does not get caught.

Which would also involve protecting CJ from the eyes of the government and their enemies.

Also, not trying to divert from the discussion but Germturtle made a good point there.

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LCollusions
Grove Street Families were still a street gang, even after CJ's comeback to LS. Tommy, on the other hand, is a powerful crime boss, plus he had the help of Cubans and Bikers.

LOL, am from Cuba.

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LCollusions

I doubt CJ dead, with all the cheats he used.

 

 

Please don't double post. Use the EDIT button. - girishb

Edited by girishb

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JustRob

I'm sorry but I just don't buy the whole "it's in Toreno's best interest to hide CJ" theory. If that were true, then there is no way Toreno would have let CJ interact with The Truth or let him walk straight into a top secret government facility. Toreno also didn't seem to care the least bit about CJ's well being when he casually told him Russians were making requests to interrogate him.

 

Anyway I guess we have different views on that. I don't think anything CJ does could endanger Toreno. The government could track it to the gang slums because it was CJ who comitted the crimes. It's not like CJ is an unknown guy in the world. He got a name for himself throughout the entire state. It wouldn't exactly be hard to find out who he is and where he lives.

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Dark_side646

Similarly, I just don’t buy the whole “Toreno can protect himself despite CJ revealing his involvement” theory. Simply put, his enemies won’t even try to confirm CJ’s words. For all we know, they’d even do all they can to make sure that what CJ says is true just to have an excuse to attack Toreno and his organization. Also, if you’re going to take Toreno’s words seriously then what about the multiple times he assured CJ that nothing bad will happen? Should this not stand for something?

 

We do have different takes on this and I don’t think Toreno will be able to protect himself if word of his involvement reaches his enemies. Regarding CJ’s popularity, then Tommy had an even bigger image in 1986. If the government couldn’t track him down for stealing the tank and the missile chips (judging by his status in 1992), I doubt CJ has anything to worry about.

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JustRob

Well, who knows if they didn't? We don't know what happens after Vice City. The government may have busted Tommy, or maybe he covered himself up. The only thing we can say for sure is the government didn't immediately go after him, which makes some sense.

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WhistleBlower

Well, you'd think that after all of the crazy sh*t CJ did in 1992 that he was being watched by the government. But what if his situation is similar to Officer Tenpenny's, in the sense that his actions are being investigated, only they can't piece the whole puzzle together? The only difference is that we all know CJ isn't really a bad guy in the grand scheme of things whereas Officer Tenpenny was as corrupt as they come.

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