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Claude


bobgtafan

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Many view Claude Speed as an empty shell of a character. A man of few words Claude had a larger impact on me than Carl Johnson with all of his conversations. I already know what many of you are ready to type, that Claude was just a generic white guy, but what Claude looks like isn't important in the story.

 

Claude is a character with very little backstory, no name and no voice. All of his motivition in GTA 3 was pure and simple revenge. From what we know with San Andreas added on Claude owned a run down car garage with only 2 pot heads for mechanics. It can be infered that Claude had done illegal acts before but not on a large scale, in the mist of all of this he decides to start auto racing. While auto racing he falls in love with an ambitious pyshco named Catillia and they date and rob across the nation from 1992 to 2001. Now just think about that, almost 10 years of doing the same crime, with the same person over and over. Given Claude's lack of vision with his San Ferrio garage it's probable he wasn't very ambitious. As a matter of fact have you ever just looked at how Claude lives in GTA 3? A warehouse, a project etc. He doesn't really want material things, hell the only thing Claude is driven by is hate of his past lover.

 

Now all of that was backstory added in San Andreas and so some would say that Claude in GTA 3 still isn't much of a character, but even just going by what happens in 3 it's apparent that he's more than a void. There isn't any reason to into the whole plot but isn't a few key points.

 

A. Claude is ruthless- The whole time in GTA 3 many characters try to use Claude for their own means, but at the end of the day he's not even working for the money, but his own goals. He betrays the Yakaza to weaken the Cartel and kills Asuka's brother, a woman who agrubly saved his life from the Mafia, gave him a place to say, directed him against those who were trying to kill him and gave him more than enough money for his services. He turned on the Diablos, commiting a slaughter of them for the Yardies too. Claude could care less about the petty thugs he uses to met his own goals.

 

B. Alternative Causes- Throughout the whole game the only person Claude showed a concern for was Catillia herself. In Grand Theft Aero, Claude had her cornered, he had the gun raised. He could of killed her right there and yet he didn't. Catillia herself even hinted that Claude wanted to get back with her. Viewed from that perspective what if the whole time Claude just wanted to get back into her good graces? He was with the woman for 9 years and must of known about her homicidal/pyshco tendiences. Many of you are already are thinking, I've put to much into this, but at the same time; remember the plot. Claude says nothing about his motivations in the game. Being voiceless his actions are what diffine him. From this view everything get's a new meaning and adds a layer of depth to the character who was simply a empty vassal before. Sure that wasn't R*'s intent but it's still a different very regardless.

 

C. Things we know for sure- Claude was upset that Maria ruined his connection with the Mafia. He didn't care much for the Yakuza, and he wasn't fully sure of what to do when the last mission came around. Remember how Catillina stripped him of weapons, took the money and berated him for wanting her or Maria. To be honest the whole punching the dude before getting shot in the face was probably a stroke of luck on his part, more than anything.

 

D. Small Time Criminal- Taken from the stance that Claude was trying to impress her things look much different. The whole time he's trying to not be "small time". Or even if he didn't really care about Catillia, it could be said he's just trying to impress himself. He's getting older (what late 20's, early 30's) and he really hasn't made much of a name for himself. Considering the last 9 years spent being a criminal it's likely he himself wasn't feeling like his life was rising anywhere and then to make it worse his long time girl friend makes it very clear in an embrassing way. Claude goes from being generic white guy named Claude, to guy trying to satifsy himself, others, and impress the world.

 

Once we get to the end when you really think about things what has he gained? Sure he's killed Catilla but he also knocked off Askua, the only person who could lead him to advancement. Long time employer Donald Love disappeared. The Mafia, Traids, Yardies, Diablos, Cartel, and potentially Yakuza want him dead too. The press was on to the story to some extent. The CIA probably knows something about his involvement with Ray. Realstically Claude did all of this, became more well known than he could of ever imanged, killed Catillina and is worse than it would of been if he just went to prison.

 

So when it comes down to it, I think Claude was more fleshed out than meets the eye.

Edited by bobgtafan
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A man of few words

...or a man of no words? tounge.gif

 

 

From what we know with San Andreas added on Claude owned a run down car garage with only 2 pot heads for mechanics.

Actually, Dwayne and Jethro were acquired by Carl Johnson and The Truth during Wear Flowers in Your Hair of the San Andreas sequence.

 

 

< Lots of other stuff >

I'm not quite sure what you're trying to say other than that Claude might have more to him than he himself can say.

 

From my point of view, he seems to be, quite simply, an avatar for players to feel immersed into Liberty City and carry out the plot of GTA III, explaining why he says nothing and is obedient to those that lend him any opportunity to work. Following the events of GTA III, Claude merely has left: the several rampages to complete, the numerous Hidden Packages to collect, and the short-winged Dodo to tame. It was the missions that made Claude who he was. The line of work was his life. With the storyline ending, so too did his life, as the player will assume complete control over his body after Catalina is killed.

 

That aside, there is really not much to Claude's personality. It is possible that he has human emotions; however, these are not displayed as frequently throughout the game as much as other characters' traits, and will therefore be forever unknown to us. In the frame of the plot of GTA III, Claude is as flat as a board.

 

---

 

It makes me feel better to imagine that Claude actually does have his own personality though. He deserves at least that after 200 hours of total gameplay. turn.gif

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actually, its because R* had to work extra hard to get the world working and the gameplay right and they didn't have time to hire a voice actor for Claude. He was just an avatar, he didn't even have a name at the time.

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I loved Claude the best because of him not talking. It made it easier for immersion to that world. When you stopped playing you truly felt like you were still in the game. I think this was because his silence allowed us to feel we were the character. imho

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Spaghetti Cat

Hey, I liked this. It was a good read. You deserve a cookie cookie.gif

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I am starting a total conversion for GTA SA which features him as the protagonist and he will talk (like every other protagonist would)

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I can't believe how much ppl like Claude. He is a mute, he isn't a protagonist at all - he's suspossed to be you, that's why he doesn't talk at all, Rockstar wanted you to impersonate him when playing. He has no character as well as no name, I have no idea why ppl like him.

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Dark_side646

He may have been more fleshed out than meets the eye but he's still the most under-developed GTA protagonist. His lack of dialog never made the game feel more immersive to me. That was because of so many instances in the story where Claude did something I didn't want him to. Sparing Catalina multiple times in the story, letting Maria get away with ruining his reputation among the Leones, killing Kenji (a valuable ally in his fight against the Cartel) just so that some bloke could get reduced real estate prices and some other such scenarios.

 

Like bob stated, instances like these gave Claude an extra layer and depth to his personality. At the same time, this also breaks any form of immersion for me since situations like these would make me say,"Now why the hell did he do that?" However, I don't consider this a good enough reason to like him. With the sense of immersion broken, I'm left with what Claude was on his own (without any input from me, the player). Whats left is a spineless man who has no clear objective and always relies on others to give him a sense of direction.

 

What else should I think of a man who just takes orders from other people without considering their motives or how working for them benefits him, if at all? He lets them treat him however they like, without trying to stand up for himself when things get ugly. I hardly see how he could meet his goals by street racing, collecting "donkey-memorabilia" or blowing up laundry vans. Also, when did Catalina ever state that Claude wanted to get back with her? Why the hell would he, after all she made him go through? Him not killing Catalina and Miguel at the construction site was nothing more than poor writing by R*, similar to how Claude let them get away at the docks when he was sent to make sure Curly Bob was a traitor.

 

Overall, I agree with some points made in the first post and disagree with the rest. Claude definitely was his own man and not some blank shell to act as a sort of player avatar. He also had a lot of potential and could have been a much better character than how he was portrayed as. However, in my opinion, his personality was extremely underdeveloped and he, unfortunately, fell victim to poor writing by R*. All these things made him one of my least favorite characters. I don't hate the guy but I can't really bring myself to like him either.

Edited by Dark_side646
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bobgtafan

Glad some of you liked the post, it's been something stuck on my mind,

 

@Adler- I honestly don't think avatar Claude and plot Claude are the same. I say this because at the end of the plot of GTA sure the avatar Claude still has things to do but the plot line Claude is screwed. Sure we never see plot line Claude again but that doesn't mean he doesn't go on. In much the same way after Vice City ended it could be said Tommies life was over and yet he was still alive in 1992 with an empire. That said avatar Claude is basically the same as avatar Niko or even avatar John Marston in the sense that they are complety dependent on the player for action.

 

As far as Claude's personality goes, even though he had no facial expressions or voice you can still see his emotions through his actions. Why would he care about Catillina if he felt no sense of fear, anger, regret, or betrayal? In the last mission in Portland when Maria told him she told Sal his hands went up in annoyance/anger. Even his clear betrayal of the Yakuza for Trump shows he has little empathy. The lack of expressions and voice hurt his personality sure, but that doesn't mean it's not there or even likable for some gamers. (Like myself).

 

BTW thanks for the corrections I had forgot about the garage.

 

@aceray- Yep that's the reason Claude doesn't have a voice, but the thing I've wondered is, would it be better? Would Claude really gain much from talking in the game? We'll never know but in the context of GTA 3's story i don't see it adding much.

 

@lolleroz- Claude is easily the protagonist, he's the central character the game resolves around. Even if he never was given a name, or was customizable he'd still do the same thing in the cut scenes and still take the same actions. The appearance of Claude doesn't matter because the back story is the same regardless. The rising action is the same. The climax and ending are the same too. That said the only question left then is what motivates Claude and how who stops him?

 

@Dark_side- I'll agree that Claude is underdelevoped, my only problem is that he is often times underrated. Besides that when I really look back every protagotist until Niko was simply a stepping stone and I would argue they regressed again until John Martson in Red Dead. As a said to aceray I can't really see how him speaking about him doing what he's told would of added much to the story. Even if Claude COULD speak doesn't mean he would do anything differently.

 

We could argue about whether or not some action he did was dumb or not but a larger point should be made. Through the course of a large game like GTA 3 with so many characters, missions and situations there will probably always be something in the plot we could wish went differently. And even if Claude had a personaity and voice would his f*ck ups be any better? I think the real problem with GTA plot lines is that they often times lack proper falling action and resolution. The climax in GTA 3 (Cat. dying) was also the fal. and res. That creates problems because we don't get to see if the players arguable mistakes (like killing Kenji) catch up with them like in most gangster movies.

 

Sense we don't see the full ending we're left wondering and arguing about unhappened consequences instead of looking at the consequences of Claudes actions. This is a major problem but I don't think it makes Claude any worse than the other 3 era protagonist. Is he the best? Nope, but i liked him more than CJ because of the path he choose in the plot.

 

This is running kind of long so let me rap this up. I don't see Claude as spineless nor irrational. He sold those pornos so he could make more money to buy more guns. He did what he was told so he could get better jobs. There is something to be said for following orders, hell he rose quickly in whatever organization he was in. Cat. stated that in the last cutscence she was in.

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Dark_side646

Good points but I disagree with a few. Regarding Catalina, you interpretted her words wrong. She was talking about Claude wanting to get back at her (taking revenge), not to get back with her (resuming their relationship). As for Claude talking, even if it couldn't have had any large impact on the plot, it would still add more meaning to some of the things he did. His silence works against him in multiple instances :

 

1. When Maria ruined his impression on Salvatore, Claude turns on the Leones. He could've easily dragged Maria back to Salvatore and forced her to tell the truth but didn't. If he could talk in this scenario, he could've provided some justification for taking such a careless decision.

 

2. Kenji and Ray insult and mistreat him in the missions Smackdown and Plaster Blaster because they were angry about things that weren't even his fault. Despite being treated so badly, he continues to work for them. His silence gives an impression of him being spineless as he doesn't try to stand up for himself and talk back.

 

3. Working with his allies (Leones or Yakuza) earns him enough money to get all the guns he'd need (and also have the support of a powerful gang). No need to waste his time with a corrupt cop, a media tycoon, a bankrupt factory owner and a donkey lover. Said tycoon also asks Claude to kill one of his allies, which he does. The belief that he wanted more money to get more guns to fight Catalina also contradicts with the 2 instances where he lets her escape. This whole issue might have made more sense if he could have explained his actions.

 

Hence, I think Claude's silence does make him different from the others. For example, Tommy refuses to work for Cortez, stating that this wasn't helping him get back his lost money. However, Cortez butters him up a bit and Tommy finally agrees to do his bidding. This scenario seems much more believable than Tommy coming to Cortez, taking his orders and then leaving, like it is in Claude's case. Thats why I believe that if Claude could talk and had a more developed personality, it would've been better. Just my opinion.

Edited by Dark_side646
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In much the same way after Vice City ended it could be said Tommies life was over and yet he was still alive in 1992 with an empire.

Do you have evidence of this? I haven't heard much about VC in 1992.

 

I'll have to agree about your statement about the avatars since I might've overstepped some boundaries when I merged the plot together with the gameplay of the game. smile.gif

 

 

@Dark_side- I'll agree that Claude is underdelevoped, my only problem is that he is often times underrated. Besides that when I really look back every protagotist until Niko was simply a stepping stone and I would argue they regressed again until John Martson in Red Dead. As a said to aceray I can't really see how him speaking about him doing what he's told would of added much to the story. Even if Claude COULD speak doesn't mean he would do anything differently.

In light of Claude's actions throughout the game, I view him as rather short-sighted and narrow-minded. This is due to Claude never really taking in consideration the effects of his actions on the larger picture of Liberty City when becoming affiliated with numerous gangs, Ray, and Donald Love, and working for them only to achieve his own personal goals. He is only concerned with Catalina as the plot reveals e.g. by hesitating to shoot Catalina in Grand Theft Aero, and by Catalina's dialogue in The Exchange. It could be inferred by this, though, that he is truly in love with Catalina by his pursuit of her throughout the game.

 

Though he could be underrated, qualities that Claude could possess in addition to those already displayed in the plot of GTA III are either inevident or nonexistent. Claude must therefore be a flat character in the grand scheme of GTA III, otherwise he would actually show us some emotions such as anger, joy, sadness, and other such qualities that he lacks. There is really not much else to Claude when we try to speculate about his inner personality. He's just a ruthless, careless, and arbitrary character in love with another.

 

That's what makes him so awesome I guess. lol.gif

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Mr.Mister

He is one of my favorite GTA characters. His mysteriousness and ruthless attitude is what makes him appealing. You gotta use your mind to figure out what he is doing. The fact that he never speaks/asks questions shows that he is quite loyal (although his actions speak different). Im sure if he had a loudmouth, then things would have turned out much differently. Also, he resembles me and is quite quiet like me, so there is some personal attatchement tounge.gif

 

GTA3 is also one of the best in the series just because it was that game.

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The difference between Claude and other GTA protagonists parallels the difference between GTA III's Liberty City and other GTA cities. Claude is an undefined character whose motives can only be inferred from his actions, and his Liberty City is an imaginative amalgam of not only New York but other U.S. cities and their landmarks. Beginning with Vice City and increasingly in San Andreas and GTA IV, the player characters and the locations were more specifically detailed.

 

Although L.A. Noire is not a GTA game, in it we see this evolution toward more reality reach a new milestone, where the location is a 90% recreation of a real place, and the main character is so defined that the player can't act too far out of character. (As a good-intentioned police officer, Cole Phelps won't randomly shoot pedestrians.) The next GTA wouldn't be GTA if it became that realism-bound or offered less moral freedom than GTA IV, but the path from GTA III through recent games shows Rockstar is increasingly interested in character, narrative, and setting, and each game is the product of increasing amounts of character and location research from which detail is mined.

 

Looking back at GTA III, the nature of Claude is not so much the product of design choices but of the designers not yet attempting the kind of storytelling that would come later. GTA III is about Liberty City, not about Claude. Claude almost isn't there. The player might as well be there. You could reskin Claude to look like yourself and it wouldn't be wrong, but if you did that to any other GTA character it would be ridiculous.

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Dark_side646

 

Do you have evidence of this? I haven't heard much about VC in 1992.

In The Introduction Video for SA (included in the PS2 SE version only) we see Ken Rosenburg released from rehab. He is then shown using a payphone to talk to Tommy but is hung up by whoever is on the other end (presumably Tommy's secretary) saying Tommy doesn't want to talk to him. We can't really hear what is being said on the other end but this is what supposedly happens according to Ken's dialog in that scene. Here is what he says :

 

 

Ken:  Ah, yes.  Tommy Vercetti, please.  Tell him Ken Rosenberg called.  Ken Rosenberg.  You haven't heard of me?  Who are you? Ken Rosenberg.  Rosenberg!  Oh!  Oh really?  You told him I called?  Look, I made that ingrate, and now he won't take my calls?  Just put him on the phone right now!  Hello?  Hello? Damn it!

 

So we can't really be sure whether Tommy is still as big as he was in the 80's but he still seems to be alive. Also, I'd like to know why people believe that Claude still loved Catalina. That woman tried to kill him not once but thrice. Was Claude really such a big idiot that he couldn't understand the simple fact that Catalina hated him and wanted him dead? How could he love her despite this? It doesn't make sense. And seriously, if he loved her so much then why the hell did he finally kill her? Lover's remorse?

Edited by Dark_side646
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Also, I'd like to know why people believe that Claude still loved Catalina. That woman tried to kill him not once but thrice. Was Claude really such a big idiot that he couldn't understand the simple fact that Catalina hated him and wanted him dead? How could he love her despite this? It doesn't make sense. And seriously, if he loved her so much then why the hell did he finally kill her? Lover's remorse?

San Andreas established they were together for nine years (1992-2001) so it's likely he loves and hates her at the same time, and she has to feel something for him too. They wouldn't have lasted that long otherwise. They're just extremely dysfunctional and homicidal.

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Finn 7 five 11
Hey, I liked this. It was a good read. You deserve a cookie cookie.gif

When i first played GTA III i didn't even notice the guy didn't talk, the only game i had really played before gta III didn't have voice actors, like pokemon.

 

So for me him not talking did not bother me in the slightest, there wasn't much reason for him to talk it would have added little to the story anyway.

In GTA IV i got the feel Niko did a little too much unnecessary talking, so much of it was pointless, i understand R* was trying to build character, but talking excessively doesn't really do that, its more quality than quantity.

 

Vice City and San Andreas had about the right amount of Protag conversation, most of it was pretty entertaining, IV had a lot of boring crap to sift through before anything interesting happened.

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Djdevin10

lol in gta 3(2001) he was sentenced to 10 years,

its 10 years l8r

r*(or a pro moders) should make a what if game if Claude or 8ball was never broken out of jail

it would be interesting.......................

(and it should be released on gta 3's 10th b day) biggrin.gif

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Dark_side646

 

San Andreas established they were together for nine years (1992-2001) so it's likely he loves and hates her at the same time, and she has to feel something for him too. They wouldn't have lasted that long otherwise. They're just extremely dysfunctional and homicidal.

Maybe its just me but I fail to see how anybody could love and hate someone at the same time. Especially if "love" simply translates to Claude sparing her life while "hate" translates to Claude allying with her enemies, ruining her drug business and brutally murdering her.

 

Besides, who is to say that they had a happy love life all this time? Knowing Catalina, it might have even been the worst 9 years of Claude's life. If they were so happy together, what made Catalina suddenly turn on him? As for Claude, were the 2 times she tried to kill him not enough to make him see the reality? And most importantly, if he loved her so much then why did he kill her? Why not let her run away a third time to show how much he loved her?

Edited by Dark_side646
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Finn 7 five 11
San Andreas established they were together for nine years (1992-2001) so it's likely he loves and hates her at the same time, and she has to feel something for him too. They wouldn't have lasted that long otherwise. They're just extremely dysfunctional and homicidal.

Maybe its just me but I fail to see how anybody could love and hate someone at the same time.

Well when i was a teen and live d with my sister i f*cking hated her guts, but at the same time i had brotherly love for her.

 

So start seeing chump.

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Dark_side646

I seem to have offended some people here (judging by finn4life's reaction), so I apologize for that before things get worse. Let me justify myself. Firstly, Claude loving and hating Catalina at the same time to the extant that he spares her life and then kills her afterwards seems a little hard to believe. Secondly, that isn't the only plot point in GTA3 that is hard to understand. Thats because they're simply instances of poor writing by R*.

 

Remember Claude working hard to help the Leones against the Triads and Cartel (even almost becoming a made man) and then turning on them just because Maria lied about him to Salvatore? Does this mean that Claude loved and hated the Leones at the same time? Or how about Claude not seeming to mind Kenji's insults (in the mission Smackdown) in the slightest and later killing him just because someone asked him to? Does this mean that Claude loved and hated Kenji at the same time? No they were examples of a lack of good writing. In other words, plot devices to make things happen like Claude allying with the Yakuza, Asuka waging her own personal war against the Cartel and Claude fighting Catalina as the final boss in the game. All this is, in no way, an attempt to insult GTA3, the story or Claude since I've come across equally poor story writing in some of the latter GTAs. Hope this helps cool things down.

Edited by Dark_side646
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Firstly, Claude loving and hating Catalina at the same time to the extant that he spares her life and then kills her afterwards seems a little hard to believe.

He doesn't exactly spare her in that he walked away from her since she ran away before he could do anything. He was more hesitant about killing her than letting her go out of his own will.

 

 

(even almost becoming a made man)

This is highly dubious since we're unsure if Claude has a purely-Italian background. If he were a made man then he'd be useless in the chain of command of the Leone Family due to his inability to speak (thereby rendering him inept at taking charge). At the most, he was merely a hired gun.

 

 

Does this mean that Claude loved and hated the Leones at the same time? Or how about Claude not seeming to mind Kenji's insults (in the mission Smackdown) in the slightest and later killing him just because someone asked him to? Does this mean that Claude loved and hated Kenji at the same time?

Actually you can't say that Claude loved or hated the Leone Family and Kenji because never has he displayed any affection nor emotion for them. He was hired to work for them, and he was hired to destroy them. It's as simple as that.

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bobgtafan

@ Alder- The Tommy thing has already been answered, and I would say that Claude is a little more delevoped than that. He was probably also driven to push himself out of the role of small time criminal. I would just add this to your last post. Why would Claude try to work things out with Sal? The man tried to kill him, and ship him to the Cartel no less. Not only that but Sal. was becoming more paranoid. Even if Claude talked do you really think he'd listen to Claude? And why would Claude still want to work for a man that tried to off him?

 

@ Magic Al- I agree that Claude could be reskinned and it wouldn't matter, but that's because his backstory allows that. Literatty all it is that he's small time, never done much, loved a woman for 9 years, and got betrayed. It's simple and yet it's enough to map out the actions of the protagonist.

 

@ Dark side- First when I rewatched the ending of GTA 3 she said these words, " The real question is, did you turn up to rescue Maria or to get me back?" Her tone of voice suggested that she was talking about in a relationship status, and then she went on to insult him about the 9 years they were together. All of that to me, taken together seems to suggest that he did want her back.

 

Secondly sure he's mistreated but given Claudes' goal why would he care? He was still getting paid and in the case of Kenji don't you think in the end killing him was better than getting into a petty argument and not having employment?

 

Third, Claude was driven by more than love/revenge for Cat. but also the small time thing. Think about it, his whole life he's been a criminal but hasn't really made a name for himself. Now he's lost the woman he was with for 9 years because of it. Everything that he did increased his fame, experience, self esteem, contacts, or wealth.

 

Back to the love thing, I want you to remember CJ's time with Cat. now picture that over 9 years. Claude and Cat. have probably had their far share of homicidal moments. And to even stay with her so long suggest Claude himself is slightly pyschotic. If your parents tried to kill you and you suddenly found them and had a gun pointed at them, would you shoot instantly? And look at the Grand Theft Aero ending, Miguel had the case; something Claude and Love had been looking for, for mulitple missions. He'd risked his life and jail for that thing. And plus you now see her there too? He had only seconds to act and didn't expect her to jump off the building.

 

One last thing, think of the last mission from the perspective that Claude still had some feeling for Cat. What better way to prove he's no longer small time than raising a million dollars. And if it doesn't go well he could finish it all right there. I think the whole situation is deeper than some people make it out.

 

Now to the real question. What was in Love's package?

 

 

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@ Alder- The Tommy thing has already been answered, and I would say that Claude is a little more delevoped than that. He was probably also driven to push himself out of the role of small time criminal. I would just add this to your last post. Why would Claude try to work things out with Sal? The man tried to kill him, and ship him to the Cartel no less. Not only that but Sal. was becoming more paranoid. Even if Claude talked do you really think he'd listen to Claude? And why would Claude still want to work for a man that tried to off him?

Ah... wonder why people misspell my name like that so often.

 

And yeah thanks to Dark_side for the answer to the Tommy thing. Might have been a little off-topic but I wanted to know about it. smile.gif

 

It could be possible that your theory about Claude pushing himself to greater achievements for himself and Catalina is true, but I'll have to play GTA III again some time to know for sure. It sounds possible but may be unintended on Rockstar's part lol. Then again, there comes a time when a story no longer belongs to its writer but becomes as its audience makes it out to be. Claude could be deeper than some of us believe he is. Video games, like literature, can be very fascinating sometimes.

 

 

Now to the real question. What was in Love's package?

Euh I definitely need to play this game again. Love's Disappearance also intrigued me. What was in that empty box he left behind? Where did he go after this? What has become of the "old oriental gentleman?" Donald Love is truly a man of mystery... and cannibal necrophile.

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Dark_side646

This will be a long one so I'll break it down to the people I'm talking to :

 

@Adler :

 

He was more hesitant about killing her than letting her go out of his own will.

He was paying more attention to Miguel's begging than showing any hesitation towards Catalina. If he was so hesitant to kill her back then, why did he do so in the end?

Not to mention, he displayed a similar attitude towards Miguel. He did nothing when he saw him with Curly Bob and was hesitant to shoot him on the construction site. Did he love and hate Miguel at the same time too?

 

 

This is highly dubious since we're unsure if Claude has a purely-Italian background.

My point still stands. The Leones proved to be useful allies to him. He worked quite hard to help them out and even gained their respect. Then Maria drags him into that entire mess for no reason. Like bob said, he even displayed anger/shock when Maria told him everything. While Maria was the culprit, he turns on the Leones. Did he love them and hate them at the same time?

Despite knowing that Diaz busted his deal, Tommy kept working for him to gain "knowledge". Two missions later, he kills Diaz. Did he love and hate Diaz at the same time? No, it was a plot device by R* to put more missions into the game. Same case for GTA3. Simple.

 

 

you can't say that Claude loved or hated the Leone Family and Kenji because never has he displayed any affection nor emotion for them.

He didn't display any visible affection towards Catalina in the game either. And if he only kills if he is hired to, who hired him to kill her?

 

@bob :

 

Even if Claude talked do you really think he'd listen

Salvatore tried to kill Toni too. Back then, Toni was as small time as Claude. When Toni provided his defense, he accepted it and even appologised. Why should Claude be an exception? Salvatore knows Maria is full of crap. Why would he not realise that he'd been lied to?

Also, Catalina intentionally tried to off him 3 times as opposed to Salvatore's one time which he did only under a false assumption. If he could love Catalina despite this, whats wrong with working for Salvatore?

 

 

Her tone of voice suggested that she was talking about in a relationship status, and then she went on to insult him about the 9 years they were together.

There's a flip side to that coin. Her tone could have even been that of arrogant mockery (sounded like it). As if trying to say,"I know you didn't come to rescue Maria but to get your hands on me. Sorry, but I'm a step ahead of you." Bringing up their past could have been to add insult to injury, like she did at the heist when she called him "small time".

Feel free to tell me something I missed but I don't think we'd reach a conclusion on this issue as all we have are our own assumptions.

 

 

don't you think in the end killing him was better than getting into a petty argument and not having employment?

His employment ends, whether he kills him or stands up to him (if Kenji was so narrow minded). Wouldn't it be better to end his time with Kenji while retaining some dignity? If he wanted to, he could kill him afterwards without someone telling him to do so.

And why didn't he kill Ray too, if killing those who insult him is a better solution? Why save his life instead? And why did he kill Catalina when nobody told him to nor offered him a penny in return?

 

 

Claude was driven by more than love/revenge for Cat. but also the small time thing.

Minus the "love" part, I agree. However, I can't see how the incidents with Kenji and Ray could increase anyone's self esteem. The only thing he increased, besides his wealth, seems to be the number of people who want him dead. If that is what you call fame then I digress.

 

 

And to even stay with her so long suggest Claude himself is slightly pyschotic. If your parents tried to kill you and you suddenly found them and had a gun pointed at them, would you shoot instantly?

Now its my turn to say that it might be more than what meets the eye. Both might have considered their relationship as just business. Catalina wants someone to follow orders and Claude wants a way to earn big money. The perfect crime pair, without any love involved.

For the second part, I ask you a similar question. If your parents tried to kill you and you see them board a helicopter, would you instantly blow it up? If so, then that might answer your own question.

 

 

He had only seconds to act and didn't expect her to jump off the building.

Seconds? Miguel's begging seemed to go on long enough for him to kill them both if he ignored it.

 

 

One last thing, think of the last mission from the perspective that Claude still had some feeling for Cat.

Then why did he have to bring that money with him? Screw Maria, it was Catalina he loved. Why not go there (without the money), ally with the Cartel and try to win her over? By that time, in the story, he'd have easily earned about a million or so. If he wanted to impress her, why not bring a lot more money than the 500K she demanded? Most importatnly, if he loved her so much, why did he kill her?

 

 

Now to the real question. What was in Love's package?

LCS might have an answer to that. barf8bd.gif

Edited by Dark_side646
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He was paying more attention to Miguel's begging than showing any hesitation towards Catalina. If he was so hesitant to kill her back then, why did he do so in the end?

He was given more time to think about it in the period between then and the final mission. When he saw Catalina in Grand Theft Aero, he was only give a quick moment to decide until she escaped. Miguel's begging was just a distraction to him at the time which didn't help him make the decision any quicker.

 

 

Not to mention, he displayed a similar attitude towards Miguel. He did nothing when he saw him with Curly Bob and was hesitant to shoot him on the construction site. Did he love and hate Miguel at the same time too?

You're missing the point about the love/hate situation between him and Catalina. It can't be expanded towards other individuals or organizations because he was only involved with Catalina romantically.

 

Also, the circumstances with Curly Bob and Grand Theft Aero did not involve Claude's personal goal of seeking revenge as he was not expecting Catalina and Miguel to be present at the time. He was only fulfilling the orders of Salvatore Leone and Donald Love, respectively. In Grand Theft Aero, Claude did not have a motive to kill Miguel since his purpose was to retrieve the package for Love. Asuka helped relieve him of killing Miguel by appearing at the the site. That was revenge enough for Claude while he is able to think about his situation with Catalina.

 

 

Despite knowing that Diaz busted his deal, Tommy kept working for him to gain "knowledge". Two missions later, he kills Diaz. Did he love and hate Diaz at the same time? No, it was a plot device by R* to put more missions into the game. Same case for GTA3. Simple.

Plot device, sure, but when you think about the story as a separate entity, away from Rockstar as its developer, the story becomes deeper because we, as the speculators, are making it that way. We have the power to elaborate on these stories, and you're throwing it away by dismissing these scenarios as simple products for entertainment. Think about this, and please return when you have something to add to our fiction here. smile.gif

 

 

He didn't display any visible affection towards Catalina in the game either. And if he only kills if he is hired to, who hired him to kill her?

We know that Claude was in a relationship with Catalina, and his actions reflect that. I didn't say that he only killed because he was hired to. The Exchange was one of the few acts of his own will in order to get revenge on Catalina.

 

 

And to even stay with her so long suggest Claude himself is slightly pyschotic. If your parents tried to kill you and you suddenly found them and had a gun pointed at them, would you shoot instantly?

Now its my turn to say that it might be more than what meets the eye. Both might have considered their relationship as just business. Catalina wants someone to follow orders and Claude wants a way to earn big money. The perfect crime pair, without any love involved.

For the second part, I ask you a similar question. If your parents tried to kill you and you see them board a helicopter, would you instantly blow it up? If so, then that might answer your own question.

Interesting extension of the metaphor. It might have been just business, but then why would they be involved in San Andreas 1992 and have a relationship that lasted for 9 years? It could be possible that the match-up you described between Claude and Catalina was Claude's way of loving her. He needed someone to follow and obey for 9 years... even if she didn't love him.

 

 

Now to the real question. What was in Love's package?

LCS might have an answer to that. barf8bd.gif

Hehe a body part perhaps? The Cartel could have been using it to blackmail Love, or otherwise reveal to the public his shameful necrophilia.

 

...or maybe just drugs.

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Dark_side646

 

He was given more time to think about it in the period between then and the final mission.

The time gaps from the start to Cutting the Grass and from Kingdom Come to Grand Theft Aero were much longer than that. Why does he have to go through the same instance thrice to finally make up his mind?

 

 

When he saw Catalina in Grand Theft Aero, he was only give a quick moment to decide until she escaped.

He was able to kill Salvatore fast enough. Why should it take any longer to shoot Catalina? I understand seeing one of the 2 people who screwed him beg for his life can get Claude distracted. It does not justify why he didn’t just kill her after she shot Miguel. Especially when he had the gun pointed at her but turned towards Miguel for no reason.

 

 

He was only fulfilling the orders of Salvatore Leone and Donald Love, respectively

This can also explain his situation with Catalina without factoring “love” into the equation. That Claude is so focused on given orders that he doesn’t think of anything else, even about people he has scores to settle with on a personal level. Despite sounding a little odd, this is much more believable than “he loved and hated her at the same time”. However, if so, why did he kill Catalina when he was only told to pay Maria’s ransom? If he can kill Catalina then, despite not being told to, why could he not do so earlier?

 

 

Plot device, sure, but when you think about the story as a separate entity, away from Rockstar as its developer, the story becomes deeper because we, as the speculators, are making it that way. We have the power to elaborate on these stories, and you're throwing it away by dismissing these scenarios as simple products for entertainment. Think about this, and please return when you have something to add to our fiction here.

Yes, how dare I criticize a story’s weak point? No matter how faulty a story is, lets just make things up to “speculate” because we have “the power to elaborate”. sarcasm.gif Is this what you’re saying?

And how come VC’s weak plot point is accepted as a plot device but GTA3’s aren’t? Let me give you a similar advice. Please return when you have something better to justify said plot point than asking me not to criticize a story.

 

 

The Exchange was one of the few acts of his own will in order to get revenge on Catalina.

So why did he not use said will to kill her earlier? He could kill her and Miguel, along with Curly Bob, at the docks or at the construction site and still gotten the package for Love. He’d also do a favor to both employers. Killing them on the docks would weaken the Cartel, granting the Leones an advantage. Killing them at the construction site would free Love from their bickering. What could have possibly gone wrong?

 

 

why would they be involved in San Andreas 1992 and have a relationship that lasted for 9 years?

OK, lets say that your speculation about their 9 years together is true. But could he still love her after her betrayal? Because his fight against the Cartel, his efforts to damage her drug business and the fact that he finally did kill her seem to suggest otherwise.

If we’re going to take Catalina’s words seriously in The Exchange then how about Asuka’s words in Bait? She stated that Miguel said how much Catalina feared his “quest for revenge”. And why wouldn’t she? It makes sense. After what she did, why would Claude not want payback? Why should he love her anymore after that?

Edited by Dark_side646
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You've made a lot of points and to be honest I don't feel like answering to all of them because you're very stubborn in holding onto your simplistic conclusions. The greatest fallacy you have committed is that you're not "embracing the complexity" of the plot and you're not even willing to consider that there is depth in the plot. I'll try to give you as brief an explanation as I can.

 

You have to understand that people are the most irrational and arbitrary creatures on this planet. There really is no reason to be in love, no rational way to define love itself. If I tried, I would define it as an attraction between individuals that may have occurred as a result of multiple reasons, depending on each individual's psychology. This unexplainable attraction then provokes questions such as, "Why would a woman want to return to a man, given that the man mistreated her their past relationship?" This situation parallels Claude when you ask, "Why should he love her anymore after that?" Sorry I can't give you a definite answer to this, but humans are complex creatures, and to try to understand why we do what we do (or why Claude does what he does) becomes futile since humans are always the unpredictable factor in any equation. There is no such thing as a constant human.

 

Continuing from the argument of the power of speculators, would you be satisfied if Rockstar ever produced a "bad" (for lack of a more accurate term) ending? When a story is written as long and as intricately as video games are often written, they become their own separate entities. Rockstar, as the developer of GTA, becomes God in the GTA World, such that a God could potentially have been the creator of our own universe. You could say that God developed us as who we are, but does he control what we do everyday? Such that we have free will in this universe, characters in GTA also have a will of their own once they are developed to that point, and the audience is familiar with it. It would be odd for Rockstar to arbitrarily transform Claude into having a happy-go-lucky personality so that nothing will get him down, would it not? In the same respect, our personality is as we choose to be, not how God chooses us to be.

 

When a character such as Claude and a story such as GTA III is developed to a certain extent, they can become cemented to the point that not even the developer could change them if they wanted to. This is due to the audience's perception of the characters and the plot. It wouldn't be the same story anymore if Claude were to be heavily optimistic. I don't mean that we make things up in order to continue the plot because it wouldn't be as authentic as if it was written by Rockstar. I mean that we can speculate about the plot by how we perceive it to be, driven by the storyline that Rockstar has already given us.

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The Nefarious

The truth of the matter is Claude didn't talk because Rockstar were so focussed on making their first 3D GTA that they totally forgot about getting in a voice actor to do his dialogue. Claude was just a simple puppet for the player to manipulate in whatever way they wanted. GTA III is a game about all of the characters that Claude meets and not so much about him at all.

 

If we were to give him an imaginary personality though I would say that the reason he never talks or shows human emotion is that he is a complete and utter psychopath with mental health issues that stem from him being neglected and abused as a child (hence him not being able to speek). He stayed with Catalina for so long because she is just as crazy and messed up as him. Kind of like a Mickey and Mallorie for the 21st century.. which is who they were probably based on.

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bobgtafan

This has been quite the debate, and it all really comes down to this.

 

Is Claude rational? The answer. No. Is Claude isane? The answer yes. Was Claude in love for 9 years? The answer, highly probable. All of these things bring together to ask. What if Claude still wanted Cat. That would explain him not killing her on the multiple occassions. That would explain him trying so hard and had a layer of depth to the character. Even more it adds a layer of empathy that you the player can have for, if not Claude, then the situation. The great thing about R* and their games is that even in the most simplistic of stories, given the characters they can create a bland protagonist may not be the death of the story. I'll seen a few threads like mine before (for example a member once hypothesised that Sal. didn't betray Claude but it was a set up by Maria.) and we need more of them for all the GTA games.

 

 

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