Download or Box Set

[mkey82]

Well, he's half right at the minimum.

[jnzooger]

Well, I actually checked and it does say some countries are not supported. So yeah, I was wrong on this front.

 

 

In this regard: that is why they give you 15 activations, and if you replace that hardware with the same, or similar hardware, it doesn't even use an activation on reinstall.

Failing hard drives and CPUs will render your activation void. Os reinstall will render your activation void. And it's 10, not 15.

From http://www.2kgames.com/cultofrapture/artic...rmupdatescaling

 

 

Beyond that, we are only using standard Games for Windows Live non-SSA guidelines, which, per Microsoft, comes with 15 activations (after that, you can reset them with a call to Microsoft.)

 

Standard activation limits is 15 not 10. And just reinstalling the game DOES NOT use a new activation. its is based on 10 different components in your computer to generate a code that is verified by the server with that code and your key, if they still match the server resends the activation signal without needing a new activation. If you replace your CPU with the exact same one, or one similar enough that reinstalling Windows isn't needed, then that code stays the same. Replacing a Hard Drive with a similar one and reinstalling Windows with the same key will also generate the same code. This is especially true if you have properly backed up and restored your saved games folders from appdata.

 

I know the Hard Drive replacing part from experience on my personal rig.

 

@OutOfTimer: Seriously, you really don't think I get what he's saying? I think I have properly explained every part of the argument when I am right, and apologized on the parts where I was wrong (legality of owning games in Germany).

[sjaak327]

Apparently Live is changing it's key usage policy:

 

Per-Title 5x5 LIVE Access keys

 

o Per-Title 5x5 LIVE Access keys are tied to a specific game, but not a specific PC or LIVE Account. Prevents keys from being shared between GFWL titles but allows more than one Gamertag to play the game on your PC

 

o New GFWL Enabled Games will either use Per-Title 5x5 or SSA (Server Side Activation) for LIVE Access Keys as decided by the game’s publisher. Previously released GFWL titles and keys will still function as they currently do.

 

o Activation limits for Per-Title 5x5 keys are the same as previous non-SSA GFWL titles.

 

http://forums.gamesforwindows.com/t/15527.aspx

 

Might be of some interest regarding the subject of this thread.

 

Even though I guess that for this game, there is no change.

[jnzooger]

Apparently Live is changing it's key usage policy:

 

Per-Title 5x5 LIVE Access keys

 

o Per-Title 5x5 LIVE Access keys are tied to a specific game, but not a specific PC or LIVE Account. Prevents keys from being shared between GFWL titles but allows more than one Gamertag to play the game on your PC

 

o New GFWL Enabled Games will either use Per-Title 5x5 or SSA (Server Side Activation) for LIVE Access Keys as decided by the game’s publisher. Previously released GFWL titles and keys will still function as they currently do.

 

o Activation limits for Per-Title 5x5 keys are the same as previous non-SSA GFWL titles.

 

http://forums.gamesforwindows.com/t/15527.aspx

 

Might be of some interest regarding the subject of this thread.

 

Even though I guess that for this game, there is no change.

Yeah, that's the GFWL3.0 setup. It doesn't apply to older games at all luckily.

[mkey82]

Well, you keep insisting on "similar hardware" but I just find the notion stupid. I had never had any part braking in less then 2 years and by that time there is ZERO chance I'll manage to find exactly the same part. I wouldn't know how to find a "similar" part, maybe you can shed some light on the issue. Also, even if I did find similar or exactly the same hardware a few years later, why the hell would I get that when something with better performance/price ratio is most probably out? Only so that *maybe* I wouldn't lose my GFWL activations?

 

There are various sources on the web debating the GFWL activation limit, stating 10 or 15, the figure being region dependent as well. You'll allow me to take the words of a PR agent that has been proven to have lied before with a grain of salt.

 

When I changed the OS (from Vista 32bit to 7 32bit) GFWL asked for the key again. How do I know how many I have used up if I can't be even sure of how many activations were there in the first place?

[jnzooger]

Similar hardware means you don't change generation or brand of hardware, simple as that. The way you were saying, you implied to me that you have to replace hardware often. More that 2 years per part is longer than Microsoft expects you to keep an install installed. Besides, depending on what you have to replace, 1 replacement every 2 years or so is a 30+ year life of the product. And that's if you DON'T ever revoke or call in for new activation.

 

That source is the most official source there is, everything else is pure hear-say. So you'll have to allow me to take the words of a true developer over some random website that says otherwise.

 

With upgrades of OS, you uninstall before upgrading, cause if you are changing OSes, you should know to do that anyway as that changes your install id. Again, they don't tell you how many you have left so you don't abuse the system. And if you run out of activations, you just call Microsoft and get new ones. Sorry if you are in an unsupported country and calling in requires a long distance charge, that really isn't Microsoft's problem, but all you have to do is call the Microsoft number for the country you purchased the game in, and don't tell the computerized system what country you are in, not that it even asks.

 

Honestly, you seem to just be reaching for something to prove me wrong with now.

[mkey82]

 

And that's if you DON'T ever revoke or call in for new activation.

I was speaking about hardware failures only, there are upgrades and such as well which tend to increase the hardware exchange frequency. 15 activations for 30 years? Are you sure that figure sounds right?

 

 

So you'll have to allow me to take the words of a true developer over some random website that says otherwise.

I'll take the word of people who actually managed to run out of activations by simply reinstalling the game "too many" times.

 

 

you uninstall before upgrading

Uninstall what?

 

 

Again, they don't tell you how many you have left so you don't abuse the system.

Exercising ones rights constitutes system abuse? When you purchase the game license, you practically purchase the number of activations. It's like if your car never shows you how much fuel you have left as the manufacturer doesn't want you to have at least a rough idea of the amount of fuel you're spending.

 

 

And if you run out of activations, you just call Microsoft and get new ones. Sorry if you are in an unsupported country and calling in requires a long distance charge, that really isn't Microsoft's problem, but all you have to do is call the Microsoft number for the country you purchased the game in, and don't tell the computerized system what country you are in, not that it even asks.

Or just have the revoke activation option which takes a solid second or two?

 

 

Honestly, you seem to just be reaching for something to prove me wrong with now.

I don't feel the need to prove you wrong, as you obviously condone this kind of behavior and what's good enough for you can't possibly be wrong. I would also like to see an example of where I'm reaching for anything.

 

I personally am done with GFWL titles until they change the activation scheme.

[OutOfTimer]

The biggest problem with this discussion is that jnzooger serves a lot of corporate bulls*hit. I'm not sure what it's all about but perhaps it's the fact you live in the US and me and mkey82 (if I remember correctly) both live in the EU. It's like you hear what mkey82 says but don't listen. It gives an impression of a person totally brainwashed by Micro$oft or some other entity. Here's what I'm talking about:

 

 

Again, they don't tell you how many you have left so you don't abuse the system.

Exercising ones rights constitutes system abuse? When you purchase the game license, you practically purchase the number of activations. It's like if your car never shows you how much fuel you have left as the manufacturer doesn't want you to have at least a rough idea of the amount of fuel you're spending.

If you're really incapable of comprehending what mkey82 is saying here, there's only one thing I have to say to you. And I will now inform you about a very important matter. Many of us here are power users who will not put up with corporate douchebaggery. I don't give a damn if you think what they're doing is right. I will rape the hell out of their system until it does exactly what I want. There will be no f*ucking excuses. It will do exactly what I want and they can suck my dick if they don't like it. Also, I expect a "thank you" for the fact I bought their product because many people don't.

Edited November 16, 2010 by OutOfTimer

[jnzooger]

Your last post has a lot of you contradicting yourself.

 

Make up your mind, are you talking about failures or upgrades? In the event of an unexpected hardware failure, you just replace the part with the same part. It it happens under 2 years, that isn't that difficult to do. If its over 2 years, then I guess you were planning on upgrading your hardware anyway. But yes, 15 activations only reactivating every 2 years for an upgrade equals 30 years.

 

People that don't use the activation system properly are gonna run out sooner.

 

Uninstall the game, which revokes the activation, before upgrading your OS.

 

You purchase the right to use use the game until the licenser says otherwise. They have no legal requirement to provide you more than one activation. They also don't have to tell you how many you have left. It is nothing like your car analogy because you don't license the gas. Its more like a sink faucet. How many times can you turn on the water before the handle breaks? If you just leave it on, it will run forever, but if you rapidly turn it on and off, it will die sooner than expected. They don't give you a number of times though, because they don't expect anyone to be that stupid with the faucet.

 

And here is another contradiction. every one of your posts is implying that you can't revoke because of problems or something. Clearly the best option is revoking an install, but that makes your entire argument null and void. The only reason you would add this line is to try and turn the argument because you are grasping at air.

 

You have a clear bias and agenda against either Microsoft or GFWL in general. So no mater how much I prove my point, you are gonna try and come up with something else to say to "prove" how evil they are. I am highly unbiased about them, I like the features GFWL adds to games, and I hate the DRM, but I deal with it to the best of my abilities within the confines they provide.

 

So here is my suggestion, miss out on a bunch of great games because you have something to prove by boycotting GFWL, or use your xliveless to miss out on the features. But stop trying to be a politician about it. Double talking just makes you look like a fool.

 

@OutOfTimer: I am no corporate stooge, I am just somewhat arguing their side in this case because there is nothing I can do about it if I want to use the features they provide. And this has nothing to do with me being in the US and you being EU. We both have the same problem with companies abusing power. I have no problem with you abusing the system, I do it too most of the time, but that is no reason to lie about how it works when you don't. And if you read this post, you will see that I do acknowledge everything mkey says, and point out what is wrong with it. If you are incapable of seeing what I'm saying than the last paragraph applies to you too.

Edited November 16, 2010 by jnzooger

[sjaak327]

I have been lucky I guess, as I never had any license issue with this game, and I did install it on different machines and different operating systems. Of course it is utter bollocks that on one side, Rockstar is touting unlimited activations, and the invisible GFWL activation (I never ever had to enter a license key for IV in the GFWL client) apparently can be done only 15 times, with no apparent way to revoke an activation, nor to see how many activations you've used.

 

I have read stories of people who actually used up those GFWL activations, and their futile attempts to contact Microsoft to get it resolved.

 

Rest assured, I would immediately ask for a refund if that would ever happen to me, as it is the principle that counts here.

 

 

[OutOfTimer]

 

We both have the same problem with companies abusing power. I have no problem with you abusing the system, I do it too most of the time, but that is no reason to lie about how it works when you don't.

Fair enough.

 

 

Of course it is utter bollocks that on one side, Rockstar is touting unlimited activations, and the invisible GFWL activation apparently can be done only 15 times, with no apparent way to revoke an activation, nor to see how many activations you've used. I have read stories of people who actually used up those GFWL activations, and their futile attempts to contact Microsoft to get it resolved. Rest assured, I would immediately ask for a refund if that would ever happen to me, as it is the principle that counts here.

Thanks, sjaak327. This is exactly my point.

 

By the way, I'm asked to type my product key to GFWL every time and since I reinstall my OS rather often, I may have this problem myself. I hope Microsoft checks hardware configuration but somehow I doubt it. They sure took their time to include "Kinect" in my profile (on their website). It's next to Mii avatars and an advertisement of Nintendogs.

[jnzooger]

We both have the same problem with companies abusing power. I have no problem with you abusing the system, I do it too most of the time, but that is no reason to lie about how it works when you don't.

Fair enough.

 

 

Of course it is utter bollocks that on one side, Rockstar is touting unlimited activations, and the invisible GFWL activation apparently can be done only 15 times, with no apparent way to revoke an activation, nor to see how many activations you've used. I have read stories of people who actually used up those GFWL activations, and their futile attempts to contact Microsoft to get it resolved. Rest assured, I would immediately ask for a refund if that would ever happen to me, as it is the principle that counts here.

Thanks, sjaak327. This is exactly my point.

 

By the way, I'm asked to type my product key to GFWL every time and since I reinstall my OS rather often, I may have this problem myself. I hope Microsoft checks hardware configuration but somehow I doubt it. They sure took their time to include "Kinect" in my profile (on their website). It's next to Mii avatars and an advertisement of Nintendogs.

Ok, so we are on the same page then. I was about to quote him too and say something along the lines of "Yeah, it sucks, but that's what we put up with for Live integration. However, there is a way to revoke the activations, you just uninstall the game. Though I have too read stories like that, but GfWL 3.0 is supposed to fix some of those problems with account/key linking."

 

Anyway, when you reinstall your OS, do you fully format your system? If so, I'd highly recommend backing up your GfWL and game appdata and put it back when you reinstall your games. That way you shouldn't need to reactivate at all, eliminating any concern over number of activations all together. Otherwise, make sure you uninstall all your games before formating, and your activations will be revoked.

[mkey82]

 

Uninstall the game, which revokes the activation, before upgrading your OS.

Are you quite sure about that? Because many people have lost their activations by simply reinstalling the game.

 

Like I said, the 15 activations figure is not written in stone as it IS region dependent.

 

EDIT:

 

People need to release the Securom license and there are only 5 of those activations. So if one doesn't uninstall the game properly, he would run into problems with Securom a lot faster then he would have any issues with GFWL.

Edited November 17, 2010 by mkey82

[jnzooger]

Uninstall the game, which revokes the activation, before upgrading your OS.

Are you quite sure about that? Because many people have lost their activations by simply reinstalling the game.

 

Like I said, the 15 activations figure is not written in stone as it IS region dependent.

 

EDIT:

 

People need to release the Securom license and there are only 5 of those activations. So if one doesn't uninstall the game properly, he would run into problems with Securom a lot faster then he would have any issues with GFWL.

Fairly sure as this is what I have done every time on many different people's computers, and none of them have run into a problem with it.

 

And yes, Securom is way more strict and yet easier to deal with for some reason. (But I dislike Securom more cause it acts more like spyware than GfWL.)

[OutOfTimer]

My main problem is that I simply forget to revoke the license because I'm normally concerned about more important things. I format my main HDD and reinstall Windows once every couple of months. I aim to have most of the applications up within 2 hours or so. This is also the main reason why I like Direct2Drive. Deploying apps using multiple SATA II HDDs is fast as hell, if you have digital versions of everything.

 

Perhaps I should also mention that I use DVD versions of GTA IV and EfLC. I don't have enough money to buy it from Direct2Drive yet. I will when the price goes down, though.

Edited November 17, 2010 by OutOfTimer

[mkey82]

 

Fairly sure as this is what I have done every time on many different people's computers, and none of them have run into a problem with it.

Did you do it more then 15 times on a same machine?

 

There are absolutely no official sources confirming this (afaics), only a few random voices claiming that something like that is possible.

 

 

I will when the price goes down, though.

There is a R* sale going on this week. Yesterday it was GTA3 day, today they are doing bully, don't know what was going on on Monday.

 

http://www.direct2drive.com/NavigationResu...erText=On+Sale&

 

Even though, I'm not sure if DD version changes anything in the GFWL setup. Supposedly, Steam handles those activations for you, but I don't know about D2D.

Edited November 18, 2010 by mkey82

[jnzooger]

Did you do it more then 15 times on a same machine?

 

There are absolutely no official sources confirming this (afaics), only a few random voices claiming that something like that is possible.

I'm fairly sure I haven't, however that doesn't prove or disprove anything.

 

And as far as confirmation, there are no official sources contending it either, so unless one of us can get a Microsoft official in here, I guess we are officially at an impasse.

[mkey82]

Good luck getting anyone from MS saying anything concrete about anything.

 

I have seen some quotes from mods over at GFWL forums stating there are no methods to revoke the activation, but I'm fairly sure they are generally not well informed, just like many of the tech support persons who don't know how to handle requests properly.

 

Overall, all these shady practices, as it has been proven many times, don't produce great results. Like, even if the uninstaller is silently contacting MS servers to revoke the activation, why the hell does it do it silently? What if there is no internet connection? What if their server is down? It would just go on and you lose one of your activations... very bad practice that only hurts legit consumers.

[jnzooger]

...very bad practice that only hurts legit consumers.

Now this is something we can agree on, and is true of all DRM.

[mkey82]

Well, there is more and less transparent DRM. The only proper kind I know off would be the one asking for the CD key to allow MP. Since most games today are at least 50% about MP, I can't believe they don't use that simple method more often.

[jnzooger]

Well, there is more and less transparent DRM. The only proper kind I know off would be the one asking for the CD key to allow MP. Since most games today are at least 50% about MP, I can't believe they don't use that simple method more often.

CD Key is a form of Physical Rights Management though, not Digital Rights Management. I 100% prefer keys to DRM.

[mkey82]

CD key checks in many cases don't even require the CD for authentication.

[OutOfTimer]

Also note that according to corporate execs, DRM is designed to make sure no ordinary kid can copy a game. Plus, to destroy the second hand market. The fact we're annoyed by it so much is only a by-product of the whole process. In that sense DRM is very successful, since most people on this planet are morons. If you're interested in this, I'll attempt to find the Ars Technica article where I read about it for the first time.

 

I talked to an old lady recently and she told me she was very unhappy that she couldn't see all the YouTube videos or buy things due to various restrictions. I said to her "what you need is a VPN, ma'm." Then I proceeded to explain to her how computers work and how she can overcome other issues - Billing Address restrictions, for instance. I also suggested it would be good if I wrote all the important terms on a piece of paper, so that she knew where to start learning about it when she came home. Note to self: this is not some f*ucking rocket science. Her response? "Screw this. I don't have the time or energy to learn it. Besides, I remember the second world war, my dear child. I'll just watch something else." This is the kind of person DRM is aimed at.

Edited November 20, 2010 by OutOfTimer

[mkey82]

DRM, when gaming is concerned, has one and one goal only (as I see it) - to delay the pirated version for about one week. Since the gross of sales usually happens inside 7 days after the release date, the developers hope they will manage to fend off illegal players and maybe force some of them to actually buy the game if no cracks are available shortly after the release date.

 

In some cases aggressive DRM managed to achieve this, like with GTAIV where the third party loader was delayed for quite a while, mostly thanks to game not being leaked and those nice game breaking checks R* managed to plant.

 

Now, the only thing that needs to be determined is the actual count of people you actually manage to convince the game should be bought stacked against the number of lost customers due to various DRM problems. Companies such as Securom do help in this regard, publishing fixed exes that can help circumventing some problems, but nevertheless, only legit consumers are hurt by these methods (not counting the first week after the release date).

[sjaak327]

^ Yeah that's probably true. Thing is, the "pirates" certainly seem on the job nowadays. I know of three games that were leaked, and were running before they were even available in Europe.

 

ELFC, Just Cause2, Mafia2.

 

And I'm sure there are probably quite a few other examples available.

 

 

[mkey82]

Well, serves them right when they force earlier release dates in the US. What the f*ck is that about? US is a bad market for PC but they still get the games easrlier and cheaper. It's like those stupid ass publishers don't even care about maximizing profit.

[sjaak327]

Well, serves them right when they force earlier release dates in the US. What the f*ck is that about? US is a bad market for PC but they still get the games easrlier and cheaper. It's like those stupid ass publishers don't even care about maximizing profit.

I agree 100%, indeed silly thing to do. All three of these games, indeed had an earlier release in the US as opposed to Europe.

 

 

[jnzooger]

Well, serves them right when they force earlier release dates in the US. What the f*ck is that about? US is a bad market for PC but they still get the games easrlier and cheaper. It's like those stupid ass publishers don't even care about maximizing profit.

I agree 100%, indeed silly thing to do. All three of these games, indeed had an earlier release in the US as opposed to Europe.

I heard that the release dates when they are like 3 days earlier in the US is due to new media traditionally coming out on Tuesday in the US and Friday in the rest of the world. Of course, that only applies to games released on the same week.

 

But then, sometimes we get screwed out of games completely over here. (See Freshly-Picked Tingle's Rosy Rupeeland.)

[OutOfTimer]

Interesting conversation indeed.

 

I agree that the publishers should think twice about releasing some things in the US first and I think it applies to the whole of the entertainment business. It's not that everyone is that stupid, though. There are many instances of US musicians debuting in the EU first due to better market opportunities, for example. But on the other hand, the first ever blu-ray edition of Hercules Poirot, which is a very famous British TV series, was so far only released in the US. F*ucking ridiculous.

Edited November 20, 2010 by OutOfTimer

[jnzooger]

Interesting conversation indeed.

 

I agree that the publishers should think twice about releasing some things in the US first and I think it applies to the whole of the entertainment business. It's not that everyone is that stupid, though. There are many instances of US musicians debuting in the EU first due to better market opportunities, for example. But on the other hand, the first ever blu-ray edition of Hercules Poirot, which is a very famous British TV series, was so far only released in the US. F*ucking ridiculous.

Same goes for Power Rangers on DVD. Because of the sellout to Disney, the USA never got the first 7 or so seasons on DVD. However, the distributers in Europe didn't change after the buyout, and so a few countries do have every episode on DVD, but not in English. (Yeah, I'm a Power Ranger fan, and this is something that urks the hell out of me. )