Download or Box Set

[Stinky12]

If I pay for it, I rather get a hard copy, but a distribution copy is good too for "backup" purposes if the physical media is damaged.

Edited November 5, 2010 by Stinky12

[IronHide-AW]

 

...I don't like Steam because they have too much control over my games. Direct2Drive simply gives you a digital copy of a game...

Bingo on D2D, although I actually do like Steam for games where it's appropriate. TF2, Red Orch. and a number of other games + Steam are pertectly suited together and Steam actually enhances them, some by quite a bit.

 

It's when games that have no real place on Steam where the trouble comes in. It's understandable that Valve wants to expand that platform ("empire") as much as possible (and have the dollars roll in by the bucket), but it just winds up adding huge bloat, annoyance and problems for games not suited for it.

[mkey82]

And just to cover it again. Yes when you have a Steam account and your HDD takes a dump you didn't lose your money or your games. Just log in and they are there, you only have to redownload them.

Please do note that many games are only distributed via steam and they have certain limitations provided by their own protection schemes. I.e. limited number of activations etc.

[jnzooger]

And just to cover it again. Yes when you have a Steam account and your HDD takes a dump you didn't lose your money or your games. Just log in and they are there, you only have to redownload them.

Please do note that many games are only distributed via steam and they have certain limitations provided by their own protection schemes. I.e. limited number of activations etc.

And most of those games have a revoke method. Also, a lot of disc based games have the same protection scheme, GTA for example, so this point is kinda moot.

[mkey82]

And just to cover it again. Yes when you have a Steam account and your HDD takes a dump you didn't lose your money or your games. Just log in and they are there, you only have to redownload them.

Please do note that many games are only distributed via steam and they have certain limitations provided by their own protection schemes. I.e. limited number of activations etc.

And most of those games have a revoke method. Also, a lot of disc based games have the same protection scheme, GTA for example, so this point is kinda moot.

Well, it usually helps when you know what you're talking about.

 

a) GTAIV has both Securom and GFWL activation, the latter CAN NOT be revoked

b) How do you revoke a license AFTER your hardware has failed? Exactly the situation Wolf68k was talking about.

 

Talk about moot points

 

When you feel the need to correct someone, use facts.

[jnzooger]

 

And just to cover it again. Yes when you have a Steam account and your HDD takes a dump you didn't lose your money or your games. Just log in and they are there, you only have to redownload them.

Please do note that many games are only distributed via steam and they have certain limitations provided by their own protection schemes. I.e. limited number of activations etc.

And most of those games have a revoke method. Also, a lot of disc based games have the same protection scheme, GTA for example, so this point is kinda moot.

Well, it usually helps when you know what you're talking about.

 

a) GTAIV has both Securom and GFWL activation, the latter CAN NOT be revoked

b) How do you revoke a license AFTER your hardware has failed? Exactly the situation Wolf68k was talking about.

 

Talk about moot points

 

When you feel the need to correct someone, use facts.

Your moot point was that digital distribution has the problem you described. What I was saying was that it is a problem with physical distribution too. GTA was just an example. There are plenty more.

 

Besides:

Windows Live activation can be revoked by contacting MS, but it has a much larger number of activations so it doesn't normally matter.

 

And its called a revoking tool. A lot of companies release them to revoke ALL current activations, Rockstar included. (Just like iTunes does for songs.)

 

Next time you try to correct someone's facts, look into it first. As both a gamer and a PC Tech, I know what I'm talking about. (Wolf can back me up on that )

 

Edit: Almost forgot, there are other factors like if the only thing you changed on your computer was say the Hard Drive, on reactivating a lot of games, they don't take another activation spot on the server. And even if you run out of activations, most companies, steam included, will allow you to email them to get slots cleared or more slots added to the account.

Edited November 6, 2010 by jnzooger

[mkey82]

Wolf said it's simple to own games on Steam as you have them tied to the account and not the actual PC. While this is 100% true for "proper" steam titles, it's not true for other games that are only distributed via Steam as they feature certain limitations. Retail problems are irrelevant as the point of the matter is digital distribution. Those games require activations that can expire and make your product unusable.

 

This point is crystal clear. Steam chooses to distribute those games so yeah, it's their "problem", clearly separating the games you can purchase on Steam and have 0 activation issues and those that may give you problems in the long run.

 

Also, note that it can be a pain in the ass (high phone call costs, language barrier, nonavailability) to have activations recalled in unsupported countries and the last time I checked, games are sold worldwide. From what I have read on these boards, it's rather evident MS is not that bent on a) giving people the proper info about their license limitations (do you even know what's the limit on GFWL activations) and b) giving support to people who manage to use up all the available activations.

[jnzooger]

Also, note that it can be a pain in the ass (high phone call costs, language barrier, nonavailability) to have activations recalled in unsupported countries and the last time I checked, games are sold worldwide. From what I have read on these boards, it's rather evident MS is not that bent on a) giving people the proper info about their license limitations (do you even know what's the limit on GFWL activations) and b) giving support to people who manage to use up all the available activations.

Most games are 15 activations through GfWL. And I have had to deal with MS on activation many times. It's not as difficult as you make it out to be. Sure its a tad more effort than activating Windows by phone, but not by much.

 

And well, unsupported countries are just that, unsupported. The games aren't supposed to be sold there, so it really is none of the publisher's problem. And Steam does have methods to block the countries games are sold in. If you bypass that, it's your own problem.

[mkey82]

 

Most games are 15 activations through GfWL.

Is that number written on the box? Say, on GTAIV? Is that number the same in all countries the game is sold in?

 

Securom has 5 activations limit, 10 or 15 I do not consider to be "much" higher, a dozen activations can be used rather fast.

 

 

It's not as difficult as you make it out to be.

I make it out be? What kind of chore did I make it out to be, do tell? There is plenty of examples in the troubleshooting section where people have been ignored or told to speak with R* and then again being told by R* to speak with MS etc.

 

I think it's not that simple as you make it out to be. And it definitely isn't as simple as logging in to Steam, which was my original, apparently moot point.

 

 

And well, unsupported countries are just that, unsupported. The games aren't supposed to be sold there, so it really is none of the publisher's problem. And Steam does have methods to block the countries games are sold in. If you bypass that, it's your own problem.

But not all games that feature such schemes are blocked, are they? Only some, depending on the publisher.

[OutOfTimer]

 

Unsupported countries are just that, unsupported. The games aren't supposed to be sold there, so it really is none of the publisher's problem. And Steam does have methods to block the countries games are sold in. If you bypass that, it's your own problem.

LOL No, it isn't. If a company decides to do business in a certain country, it is bound by the law of this country. That means it's their problem. This is how it works in the European Union. Perhaps you come from America, where consumers are generally treated like s*hit.

 

Steam adds another layer of DRM to my games. As if it wasn't enough that we already had SecuROM and activation limitations. It really makes me angry how our games are so filled with f*ucking DRM these days.

 

The truth about DRM is that it's designed to destroy second hand market and annoy little kids, who are too stupid to bypass it. It does extremely well on both of these fronts, so I don't think we will get rid of it soon. I think the only way to make them stop investing in it (instead of investing in bug fixes, for example), is for pirates to develop better cracks. But again, it isn't happening so far.

Edited November 6, 2010 by OutOfTimer

[jnzooger]

Unsupported countries are just that, unsupported. The games aren't supposed to be sold there, so it really is none of the publisher's problem. And Steam does have methods to block the countries games are sold in. If you bypass that, it's your own problem.

LOL No, it isn't. If a company decides to do business in a certain country, it is bound by the law of this country. That means it's their problem. This is how it works in the European Union. Perhaps you come from America, where consumers are generally treated like s*hit.

As I said... "The games aren't supposed to be sold there" hence the company is deciding NOT to do business there. That's what I mean by unsupported countries.

 

That is how it works in the USA too. Don't get me wrong, I hate DRM too, but I've learned to live with it.

[OutOfTimer]

 

Unsupported countries are just that, unsupported. The games aren't supposed to be sold there, so it really is none of the publisher's problem. And Steam does have methods to block the countries games are sold in. If you bypass that, it's your own problem.

LOL No, it isn't. If a company decides to do business in a certain country, it is bound by the law of this country. That means it's their problem. This is how it works in the European Union. Perhaps you come from America, where consumers are generally treated like s*hit.

As I said... "The games aren't supposed to be sold there" hence the company is deciding NOT to do business there. That's what I mean by unsupported countries. That is how it works in the USA too. Don't get me wrong, I hate DRM too, but I've learned to live with it.

But they are sold. It's not black market, it's official distribution and they can go to court for it. Nobody's stealing the packages from their transport and shipping them to some 3rd world countries. They pretend the countries are not covered to avoid litigation but the truth is they can't. It's a standard practice to take away all consumer rights just in case (read the useless EULAs, for example). You never know what the court will allow, so you cover all bases. In reality, however, the only thing that is important is the law of the country you live in. So if you live in the former Soviet Union and the law allows you to download games from torrents - go ahead.

Edited November 10, 2010 by OutOfTimer

[mkey82]

The fact of the matter is, there is only a handful of publishers that are stupid enough NOT to sell their games in some countries. So, if there is GFWL bundled with the game, what is the publisher supposed to do with it? Not sell it in the regions MS doesn't find lucrative?

 

It's the same with both DD and retail.

[jnzooger]

 

Unsupported countries are just that, unsupported. The games aren't supposed to be sold there, so it really is none of the publisher's problem. And Steam does have methods to block the countries games are sold in. If you bypass that, it's your own problem.

LOL No, it isn't. If a company decides to do business in a certain country, it is bound by the law of this country. That means it's their problem. This is how it works in the European Union. Perhaps you come from America, where consumers are generally treated like s*hit.

As I said... "The games aren't supposed to be sold there" hence the company is deciding NOT to do business there. That's what I mean by unsupported countries. That is how it works in the USA too. Don't get me wrong, I hate DRM too, but I've learned to live with it.

But they are sold. It's not black market, it's official distribution and they can go to court for it. Nobody's stealing the packages from their transport and shipping them to some 3rd world countries. They pretend the countries are not covered to avoid litigation but the truth is they can't. It's a standard practice to take away all consumer rights just in case (read the useless EULAs, for example). You never know what the court will allow, so you cover all bases. In reality, however, the only thing that is important is the law of the country you live in. So if you live in the former Soviet Union and the law allows you to download games from torrents - go ahead.

No, it is a kind of black market. The company won't ship a game to an unsupported country. That's part of what makes it unsupported. So even if it's not illegal to import it, you get the risk of importing it.

 

For example, if I import a Japanese DS game, Nintendo USA can tell me to screw off if I ask them for help, and Nintendo Japan can tell me that they don't sell the product in the USA so they can't help me.

 

With digital distribution, the distributor is bound by laws in some countries not to allow a certain version of a game be downloaded, so they had to implement regional lockouts. Examples of this are Germany and Australia, where most games are banned in their normal retail form, and ILLEGAL to possess.

 

Things in the EU are quite a bit different than the rest of the world regarding this with the open boarder free trade between member states. In that case, all of the EU has to be supported if one country is. But as far as the rest of the world goes, an UNSUPPORTED country is none of the publisher or developer's concern.

 

@mkey82: As for GfWL, a company can publish a game in a non-GfWL country without issue. It will just be unsupported by Microsoft, and the GfWL features may not work. However, the publisher will likely disclose this issue before selling it in that country. The issues here come from activation on GfWL, which either have to be disabled in copies for that region, or the game just doesn't get released there.

[OutOfTimer]

I'm not sure what kind of a world you live in, but where I live, corporations claim some countries are unsupported and then happily sell their products there. Anyway, after reading your remarks on what is illegal to possess in Germany, I feel I have to forfeit this argument. Your logic is simply too twisted.

[jnzooger]

I'm not sure what kind of a world you live in, but where I live, corporations claim some countries are unsupported and then happily sell their products there. Anyway, after reading your remarks on what is illegal to possess in Germany, I feel I have to forfeit this argument. Your logic is simply too twisted.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_banne...o_games#Germany

 

I do concede that it isn't illegal to OWN the banned games in Germany, however, they are illegal to SELL. For the most part, any violent game gets banned in normal retail form in Germany and Refused Classification in Australia because of lack of an R18+ rating there. (And the illegality to own is only West Australia.)

 

If the company sells directly to a country, and not using a 3rd party, then yes, they need to support the game. However, what I'm talking about is companies that don't sell directly or are prohibited from selling in those countries.

 

So lets say, someone in the UK uses a proxy and downloads Manhunt 2 PC, which is sold by Direct2Drive in the USA ONLY. Should Rockstar Games or Direct2Drive have to support it? The law in both jurisdictions says no.

 

On the other hand, if someone from Germany drives to France to buy Manhunt 2 on PS2, EU laws make it that R* would have to support the game even though they are banned from selling it in Germany.

 

Example 3 would be if someone in West Australia got a friend in New Zeland to ship him a copy of Postal 2, if he somehow got it through customs, should the game be supported? If they even acknowledge he has it, they acknowledge he is breaking the law. So NO, the absolutely should not.

[mkey82]

However, the publisher will likely disclose this issue before selling it in that country.

Actually, they will likely not do that.

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Games..._Windows_titles

http://store.steampowered.com/app/20570/

http://www.dawnofwar2.com/us/chaos-rising/features

http://store.steampowered.com/app/34180/

http://www.game-debate.com/games/index.php...nter%20Olympics

http://www.tropico3.com/?p=system

http://www.totalwar.com/napoleon/gameinfo/news.php

http://www.metro2033game.com/en/game_details

http://www.justcause.com/about

http://www.rockstargames.com/IV/#?page=pc

....

 

Out of all of these games, only GTAIV I have at hand and I can say one the box there's absolutely no mention of GFWL restrictions. Furthermore, I purchased the game from gam.co.uk, not some kind of a black market.

[jnzooger]

However, the publisher will likely disclose this issue before selling it in that country.

Actually, they will likely not do that.

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Games..._Windows_titles

http://store.steampowered.com/app/20570/

http://www.dawnofwar2.com/us/chaos-rising/features

http://store.steampowered.com/app/34180/

http://www.game-debate.com/games/index.php...nter%20Olympics

http://www.tropico3.com/?p=system

http://www.totalwar.com/napoleon/gameinfo/news.php

http://www.metro2033game.com/en/game_details

http://www.justcause.com/about

http://www.rockstargames.com/IV/#?page=pc

....

 

Out of all of these games, only GTAIV I have at hand and I can say one the box there's absolutely no mention of GFWL restrictions. Furthermore, I purchased the game from gam.co.uk, not some kind of a black market.

*sigh* Like I said. If the publisher sells in that country. I'm guessing you aren't from the UK, but you bought from a UK shop. Thus the publisher thinks that game is in the UK where GfWL is supported. Thus, they don't see an issue.

 

This is exactly like if I were to buy a game from Japan and import it to the USA. The publisher sold it in Japan, and someone exported it to me. As far as the publisher is concerned, the game was sold in Japan, so they don't have to support it in the USA.

[Dwagginz]

And all games with GfWL mention it on the box.

 

I've seen some UK GTA IV copies and they do mention it.

[mkey82]

 

And all games with GfWL mention it on the box.

 

I've seen some UK GTA IV copies and they do mention it.

They mention what actually? Mine mentions only the use of GWFL, it doesn't mention that some countries are not supported, it doesn't mention there is an activation limit for GFWL.

 

 

Thus the publisher thinks that game is in the UK

THEY sent it DIRECTLY from the store to my NON UK address in an unsupported country :|

 

Arguing against solid facts makes you look silly.

[jnzooger]

Thus the publisher thinks that game is in the UK

THEY sent it DIRECTLY from the store to my NON UK address in an unsupported country :|

 

Arguing against solid facts makes you look silly.

The store did, not the publisher. The store knows where the game is, but the publisher doesn't. As far as the publisher is concerned, the game was sold in the UK.

 

You are right that arguing with facts makes you look silly though, but I am not.

[mkey82]

Why then some retailers don't send some games from their offer to certain countries, adhering to restrictions? The fact of the matter is, the retailers decide where they want to sell, bigger the store more the restrictions are ignored, which only makes sense as they want to make money, it's stupid to deny any customer. Now coming to my original point - WRITE THE WARNING ON THE f*ckING BOX. Implying that some countries are just unsupported is not enough and insanely stupid. It's like if there was no code of laws, only hearsay. If the rules are not clealry written, how can anyone adhere to them?

 

"GFWL doesn't support some countries, for more details see here" and "GFWL has an activation limit set to 10, for more details see here". With those two 99% of this conversation would be void.

[jnzooger]

 

Why then some retailers don't send some games from their  offer to certain countries, adhering to restrictions? The fact of the matter is, the retailers decide where they want to sell, bigger the store more the restrictions are ignored, which only makes sense as they want to make money, it's stupid to deny any customer. Now coming to my original point - WRITE THE WARNING ON THE f*ckING BOX. Implying that some countries are just unsupported is not enough and insanely stupid. It's like if there was no code of laws, only hearsay. If the rules are not clealry written, how can anyone adhere to them?

 

"GFWL doesn't support some countries, for more details see here" and "GFWL has an activation limit set to 10, for more details see here". With those two 99% of this conversation would be void.

Sure the retailers probably shouldn't sell the games without a warning when applied to your situation, but you can't really fault anyone but the stores in that case. When the publishers ship the game to the stores in a supported country, no warning is needed because it will just work in that country. But yes, the store that sells it should contact you before completing the sale to let you know it may not work in your country if the shipping address is in an unsupported country. (I know if I sell something on eBay, I make sure to specifically say the country the game is meant for in the description.)

 

This is exactly why digital downloads are generally ip-based region locked. That way they can control what content goes to what country, and they can prevent (for the most part) these kind of issues.

 

As far as Microsoft's activation limit, its similar to the Windows' activation limit, not in amount, but in how its reported. Microsoft expects for you to install the product on only one computer, and if you do that, you should never run out of activations, cause it will only use one even if you reinstall. However, they do give you an unspecified number of extras in case of hardware failure or upgrades only. They don't want you to sell the product second hand, nor do they want you to use it on a new computer if you do a full replacement. This is why they don't tell you how many you have. If you knew, you could "take advantage" of the number remaining. It means less money in Microsoft's bank account, and they don't like that.

 

Oh, BTW, Microsoft publishes on their site a list of supported countries. http://www.xbox.com/en-US/live/countries

 

And according to [edit: removed link, see below], in supported countries, "Microsoft will reset the activations if you contact their support department", so activation limit is a nonissue anyway, for supported countries.

 

Edit: Sorry, link was to a pirating site accidentally... basically it explains how "in essence; with the exception of a single title, every game under the GFWL banner has an interchangeable key which functions for every other game."

Edited November 12, 2010 by jnzooger

[mkey82]

Edit: Sorry, link was to a pirating site accidentally... basically it explains how "in essence; with the exception of a single title, every game under the GFWL banner has an interchangeable key which functions for every other game."

That's no longer correct.

 

Yes, I'm quite aware there is a list of unsupported countries on the internet, even though I'm unsure why does it exists if the games are not supposed to be sold in those countries. And "written on the internet" does not equate "written on the box". Assuming a random customer is something you don't do.

 

On the MS information policy, if that represents an understandable explanation for you, it sure doesn't for me. Saying that it's ok to do so with their "gaming" platform because they do the same with everything else is just plain wrong. I'm the licensee of the software licenses I purchase, not my PC.

 

 

 

[jnzooger]

On the MS information policy, if that represents an understandable explanation for you, it sure doesn't for me. Saying that it's ok to do so with their "gaming" platform because they do the same with everything else is just plain wrong. I'm the licensee of the software licenses I purchase, not my PC.

Never said it was reasonable or okay. I'm just stating why it is the way it is. As I said, I hate DRM as much as the next person, but I've learned to deal with it.

 

And yes, you are the licensee, not the owner, and the license can be revoked. Legally, that is what happens when you run out of activations.

[mkey82]

Well, one more reason to explicitly state how many activations I have before I lose the license and only because my hardware may be faulty and I had to change some components often.

[Dwagginz]

Just checked Universe at War, and the small print on the case says that LIVE is not available in all countries. Viva Pinata, the same. Dawn of War 2? Again, the same. GTA IV Complete? Yep, same again.

 

They're all UK copies, and all use LIVE. I find it hard to believe that GTA IV is the only one which doesn't mention it. I'm sure someone else would be able to confirm that.

[jnzooger]

 

Just checked Universe at War, and the small print on the case says that LIVE is not available in all countries. Viva Pinata, the same. Dawn of War 2? Again, the same. GTA IV Complete? Yep, same again.

 

They're all UK copies, and all use LIVE. I find it hard to believe that GTA IV is the only one which doesn't mention it. I'm sure someone else would be able to confirm that.

US Box for GTA IV, Fallout 3, and Viva Pinata:

Games for Windows - LIVE system Requirements: PC to PC multiplayer play available at no charge; some features (e.g. cross-platform play and enhanced matchmaking) require paid membership in available games. Some LIVE services and downloads require additional hardware (e.g. headset and camera) and fees. LIVE is not available in all countries, please visit www.gamesforwindows.com/live/countries for details. Features may change without notice. Subject to terms of use (at www.gamesforwindows.com/live/termsofuse/). Broadband Internet service (sold separately) and a Windows Live™ ID account required. While most broadband Internet sercives will work with LIVE, some may not; check with your service provider. Under 13 requires parental consent.

Seeing as this is the standard message on all GfWL boxes, they do provide a warning for the supported countries. No they don't just list them all out, but that's because they change, so the link you to the site, the same one that I said before.

 

However, mkey82 has seemingly already accepted the country support thing and has moved on to number of activations.

 

In this regard: that is why they give you 15 activations, and if you replace that hardware with the same, or similar hardware, it doesn't even use an activation on reinstall. It really sounds like you are just making excuses to argue now, cause the only hardware that would die to "Require" a full reinstall of windows is either a motherboard or hard drive, and then only the motherboard would require using an activation slot.

[mkey82]

Well, I actually checked and it does say some countries are not supported. So yeah, I was wrong on this front.

 

 

In this regard: that is why they give you 15 activations, and if you replace that hardware with the same, or similar hardware, it doesn't even use an activation on reinstall.

Failing hard drives and CPUs will render your activation void. Os reinstall will render your activation void. And it's 10, not 15.

[OutOfTimer]

I'm afraid arguing with this guy makes no sense, mkey82. He simply doesn't get it.