Businesses, Rackets, and Jobs

[A White CJ]

This is to discuss both the ability to work at a job in the next game, and to run a legal or illegal business.

 

What would you like to see implemented?

[Tyler]

You might have put your ideas out, to spark some creativity eh?

 

I liked how in Vice City Stories, you were able to create the sort of racket you wanted, and although in the main story you smuggled drugs, on the rackets, you did do basically anything related to being a criminal you wanted.

[PatrickFaustin]

I'd like to see the drug selling system from chinatown wars

[Akavari]

I'd like to see the drug selling system from chinatown wars

this. i could keep myself occupied for hours just dealing drugs all over town.

[Rafe]

This is to discuss both the ability to work at a job in the next game, and to run a legal or illegal business.

 

What would you like to see implemented?

A simulated informal market structure where prices emerge due to scarcity of drugs, rare vehicles, arms.

 

Dynamic competing territorial protection claims in low income environments where the public protection regime fails to do it's job.

 

competing distribution claims for contraband or prohibited market products.

 

Also price adjustments or availability of narcotics might exacerbate criminal activity globally( in an attempt to alleviate supply dislocations,) but also might adjust the global police response tactics and radio messages as well as aggressiveness of gangs in distributing product.

 

There was quite a market for stolen car radios at one point in the 90's maybe 80's, dunno about before that. I havn't heard much about car radio theft in the last 10 years so i'mnto sure bout that.

 

I guess car chop shops offer stolen components at below market price bcs of their low cost in acquiring them

 

 

[A White CJ]

You might have put your ideas out, to spark some creativity eh?

 

I liked how in Vice City Stories, you were able to create the sort of racket you wanted, and although in the main story you smuggled drugs, on the rackets, you did do basically anything related to being a criminal you wanted.

I just didn't feel like it. If you look at my "GTA: Stuartia" thread, there are two sections, one on Drug Dealing and one on "Red Light". I also have a guide to fast-food business written up, but it's not on the Internet, so here it is.

 

With fast-food outlets, unless you start your own business (I haven't fleshed that out yet), you act as a manager of an existing restaurant somewhere. The food deals have "Ingredients" as the stuff that makes them. Most meals only have one Ingredient type; burger-type food uses Burger Ingredients, french fries use Fry Ingredients, etc.

 

You have to buy Ingredients, hire employees, and maintain the restaurant. It isn't COMPLETELY manual; you can set a "routine", which will then be carried out. On pay day, you get a percentage of the profits, the rest going to the corporation.

 

Drug Dealing can be done solo or as a "business". In the case of solo, you buy/manufacture and then sell in as an Odd Job (you have a new Odd Job Menu as part of the Pause Menu; you can use it start and quit an Odd Job). But with a Drug Dealing business, it works similar to other businesses.

[Akavari]

This is to discuss both the ability to work at a job in the next game, and to run a legal or illegal business.

 

What would you like to see implemented?

A simulated informal market structure where prices emerge due to scarcity of drugs, rare vehicles, arms.

 

Dynamic competing territorial protection claims in low income environments where the public protection regime fails to do it's job.

 

competing distribution claims for contraband or prohibited market products.

 

Also price adjustments or availability of narcotics might exacerbate criminal activity globally( in an attempt to alleviate supply dislocations,) but also might adjust the global police response tactics and radio messages as well as aggressiveness of gangs in distributing product.

 

There was quite a market for stolen car radios at one point in the 90's maybe 80's, dunno about before that. I havn't heard much about car radio theft in the last 10 years so i'mnto sure bout that.

 

I guess car chop shops offer stolen components at below market price bcs of their low cost in acquiring them

LOL

[Rafe]

This is to discuss both the ability to work at a job in the next game, and to run a legal or illegal business.

 

What would you like to see implemented?

A simulated informal market structure where prices emerge due to scarcity of drugs, rare vehicles, arms.

 

Dynamic competing territorial protection claims in low income environments where the public protection regime fails to do it's job.

 

competing distribution claims for contraband or prohibited market products.

 

Also price adjustments or availability of narcotics might exacerbate criminal activity globally( in an attempt to alleviate supply dislocations,) but also might adjust the global police response tactics and radio messages as well as aggressiveness of gangs in distributing product.

 

There was quite a market for stolen car radios at one point in the 90's maybe 80's, dunno about before that. I havn't heard much about car radio theft in the last 10 years so i'mnto sure bout that.

 

I guess car chop shops offer stolen components at below market price bcs of their low cost in acquiring them

LOL

Cmon, Rather simple computer games have demand and supply based price simulations. Industry tycoon 2 did this over 5 years ago and so did Port Royal with commodities.

 

Also GTA SA had simulated gang wars. Now you just have an economic reason or in this case game trigger for their occurrence.

[K^2]

a) It would take too long to balance.

b) Most players aren't even going to notice that anything's going on.

[Sanjeem]

In the next GTA, we deffinatly need some organized rackerteering

 

So your real business is coke, but you hide that by buying into a chain of restaurants by investing your money, this makes sh*t look legit, thats what all the organized crime figures these days do.

[Rafe]

 

a) It would take too long to balance.

b) Most players aren't even going to notice that anything's going on.

Balance ? Well i'm not advocating the possibility of your forming manageable drug monopoly lobbying a few congressman discretely to enforce drug law on your competitors. When pricing gets destabilized you would have a short amount of time to react, a few days or weeks where in you can make 10% to 50 or 60 % higher profit then otherwise normal rate in moving some product. You might incur zero additional risk if you respond to the shortage very quickly, however if you wait you incur additional risk from distributers who behave differently under shortages.

 

Conversely if there is too much product on the market you'de have to sell 2x as much to make the same, signaling you to move some other product, retire, or assault your competition to reduce supply.

 

if you are exceedingly effective at assaulting, say for example Crack dealers, you can generate a drug war because you will be reducing supply to such a degree that dealers could make 2 x to 3x selling.

 

Edited August 21, 2010 by Rafe

[TommyMufc-Champs]

GTA should definitely have businesses, I loved on VC Stories where you could run businesses. Drug dealing from CTW should be In the Next GTA but Improved.

[Kwandilibro]

Drug dealing and gang wars(providing it fits the protagonist).- Fairly simple. prices go up and down depending on the demand and wealth of customers in the area. Drugs can be sold to other dealers or street customers, and can be bought from other dealers or cartels. You can also rob other gangs, similar to TBoGT, and gangs will occasionally rob you for drugs, starting true "drug wars".

 

I'd also like to see some legit business to front illegal stuff, as well as truly legit business. Of course, this is all provided there is something to spend large amounts of money on other than weapons and food.

[Rafe]

Drug dealing and gang wars(providing it fits the protagonist).- Fairly simple. prices go up and down depending on the demand and wealth of customers in the area. Drugs can be sold to other dealers or street customers, and can be bought from other dealers or cartels. You can also rob other gangs, similar to TBoGT, and gangs will occasionally rob you for drugs, starting true "drug wars".

 

I'd also like to see some legit business to front illegal stuff, as well as truly legit business. Of course, this is all provided there is something to spend large amounts of money on other than weapons and food.

According to Freakonomics and the sociological research that it bases one of it's chapters on Street level crack dealing pays 3.50 an hour, less then minimum wage. All the money is made by the more management elements.

 

In addition over a 4 year period the chances of death dealing crack are 25 %, higher then being on death row.

 

During drug wars dealers or enforcers actually get their salary doubled.

 

This paradigm doesn't exist for drugs like cocaine or weed. There are particular variables here like potential to cause addiction, and class of consumer. Coke being more expensive and consumed by upper class. Anyway these things need to be researched. Certain drugs don't tend to result in hostile territorial aggression, possibly because of ease of gaining the product.

 

I imagine there is some good sociological research out ther to help model this component of society

[Kwandilibro]

Drug dealing and gang wars(providing it fits the protagonist).- Fairly simple. prices go up and down depending on the demand and wealth of customers in the area. Drugs can be sold to other dealers or street customers, and can be bought from other dealers or cartels. You can also rob other gangs, similar to TBoGT, and gangs will occasionally rob you for drugs, starting true "drug wars".

 

I'd also like to see some legit business to front illegal stuff, as well as truly legit business. Of course, this is all provided there is something to spend large amounts of money on other than weapons and food.

According to Freakonomics and the sociological research that it bases one of it's chapters on Street level crack dealing pays 3.50 an hour, less then minimum wage. All the money is made by the more management elements.

 

In addition over a 4 year period the chances of death dealing crack are 25 %, higher then being on death row.

 

During drug wars dealers or enforcers actually get their salary doubled.

 

This paradigm doesn't exist for drugs like cocaine or weed. There are particular variables here like potential to cause addiction, and class of consumer. Coke being more expensive and consumed by upper class. Anyway these things need to be researched. Certain drugs don't tend to result in hostile territorial aggression, possibly because of ease of gaining the product.

 

I imagine there is some good sociological research out ther to help model this component of society

That's old as f*ck man. That was the 90's. Now a lot of dealers get paid in huge amounts, not the 3.50 sh*t. And the market has opened up now. Dudes selling coke, crack, weed, heroin, even pills. And the customers are no longer limited to black people. Hustlers sell to anyone who wants drugs. White, black, Asian, Latino, whatever.

 

But the most important thing, it's no longer just crack. Crack is probably a minority drug now, especially compared to heroin and weed. That sh*t has a massive market from 50 year old junkies from the projects to teenage white kids from the suburbs. It's not as simple as it used to be.

[GTAOCD]

I think this would be a good idea. I haven't play VCS yet, but I liked how in Vice City you had the assets that gave you extra missions, kinda felt like a JOB to me.

 

(Off topic, what is a "CFW"?) I don't have a PSP, does it have something to do with that? Lol.

[K^2]

 

Balance ? Well i'm not advocating the possibility of your forming manageable drug monopoly lobbying a few congressman discretely to enforce drug law on your competitors. When pricing gets destabilized you would have a short amount of time to react, a few days or weeks where in you can make 10% to 50 or 60 % higher profit then otherwise normal rate in moving some product. You might incur zero additional risk if you respond to the shortage very quickly, however if you wait you incur additional risk from distributers who behave differently under shortages.

 

Conversely if there is too much product on the market you'de have to sell 2x as much to make the same, signaling you to move some other product, retire, or assault your competition to reduce supply.

 

if you are exceedingly effective at assaulting, say for example Crack dealers, you can generate a drug war because you will be reducing supply to such a degree that dealers could make 2 x to 3x selling.

Fair enough. But under these restrictions, a player will not be able to tell difference between an actual market dynamics simulation and just random fluctuations in prices.

 

And if there is no difference, why go overboard on realism?

 

Edit: Though, the basic idea of having prices fluctuate is a very good one. Even if it's as simple as having different ammo and weapon prices at the stores/contacts.

[A White CJ]

I don't care for an overly-complicated business system. I think that, for legal businesses, you should just have "Advertising" and "Customer Like" statistics, which determine how much business you get, and for illegal businesses you STILL have a set price; with these, you have competitors who can be taken out via wars (drug wars, brothel wars, etc.).

[Rafe]

 

Balance ? Well i'm not advocating the possibility of your forming manageable drug monopoly lobbying a few congressman discretely to enforce drug law on your competitors. When pricing gets destabilized you would have a short amount of time to react, a few days or weeks where in you can make 10% to 50 or 60 % higher profit then otherwise normal rate in moving some product. You might incur zero additional risk if you respond to the shortage very quickly, however if you wait you incur additional risk from distributers who behave differently under shortages.

 

Conversely if there is too much product on the market you'de have to sell 2x as much to make the same, signaling you to move some other product, retire, or assault your competition to reduce supply.

 

if you are exceedingly effective at assaulting, say for example Crack dealers, you can generate a drug war because you will be reducing supply to such a degree that dealers could make 2 x to 3x selling.

Fair enough. But under these restrictions, a player will not be able to tell difference between an actual market dynamics simulation and just random fluctuations in prices.

 

And if there is no difference, why go overboard on realism?

 

Edit: Though, the basic idea of having prices fluctuate is a very good one. Even if it's as simple as having different ammo and weapon prices at the stores/contacts.

 

Which would create a good opportunity for developers to provide street cues so an observant player can potentially judge the fundamentals of the market at street level. If police initiate some drug clean up enforcement program and you happen to pay attention to the news you obtain valuable data. If you move through various corners on foot you might hear talk about a particular gang increasing or decreasing their expansionary aggression. This allows you to separate the fundamentals from the random fluctuations and price and make adjustments to how you invest your time/money and in what particular illicit market.

 

If you don't pay attention to potential data sources then your simply engaged in speculation and taking on additional risk depending on how you invest.

 

 

That's old as f*ck man. That was the 90's. Now a lot of dealers get paid in huge amounts, not the 3.50 sh*t. And the market has opened up now. Dudes selling coke, crack, weed, heroin, even pills. And the customers are no longer limited to black people. Hustlers sell to anyone who wants drugs. White, black, Asian, Latino, whatever.

 

But the most important thing, it's no longer just crack. Crack is probably a minority drug now, especially compared to heroin and weed. That sh*t has a massive market from 50 year old junkies from the projects to teenage white kids from the suburbs. It's not as simple as it used to be.

 

 

I'm not to knowledgeable on the drug market and how it operates and what sort fo changes it's gone through. But Drugs have always been colorblind even before liquor prohibition and the opium wars. Whatever the case you seem to be more knowledgeable then me here and i would think R* would do its' research and consult with law enforcement officials and sociologists before committing to some method for simulating them.

 

Does Weed trafficking often result in violence or heavy violence between traffickers? Even more so then harder drugs?

 

However coke tends to be an upper class drug and thus your customers often stick with trusted buyers so its' more difficult for drug wars to break out over this type of trafficking ?

 

Also sales venues might be different depending on teh substance. Coke might require you to deliver to customer house where as particular hallucinogenics might demand you sell them near music clubs at night.

[Kwandilibro]

That's old as f*ck man. That was the 90's. Now a lot of dealers get paid in huge amounts, not the 3.50 sh*t. And the market has opened up now. Dudes selling coke, crack, weed, heroin, even pills. And the customers are no longer limited to black people. Hustlers sell to anyone who wants drugs. White, black, Asian, Latino, whatever.

 

But the most important thing, it's no longer just crack. Crack is probably a minority drug now, especially compared to heroin and weed. That sh*t has a massive market from 50 year old junkies from the projects to teenage white kids from the suburbs. It's not as simple as it used to be.

 

 

I'm not to knowledgeable on the drug market and how it operates and what sort fo changes it's gone through. But Drugs have always been colorblind even before liquor prohibition and the opium wars. Whatever the case you seem to be more knowledgeable then me here and i would think R* would do its' research and consult with law enforcement officials and sociologists before committing to some method for simulating them.

 

Does Weed trafficking often result in violence or heavy violence between traffickers? Even more so then harder drugs?

 

However coke tends to be an upper class drug and thus your customers often stick with trusted buyers so its' more difficult for drug wars to break out over this type of trafficking ?

 

Also sales venues might be different depending on teh substance. Coke might require you to deliver to customer house where as particular hallucinogenics might demand you sell them near music clubs at night.

Well, it really all depends on the dealer and the type of dealing. Some dealers will kill you over weed, but unless in large quantities, it really isn't as valuable as, say, heroin.

 

And the style of dealing really varies. Street level coke tends to be dealt the same way all street dealers operate- off a corner or a stash house. That's how ghetto drug dealing works. Now people always overlook the higher class dealers, who as you said, will sell a certain type off drug depending on location. Club drugs will be sold at clubs, cheap weed may be sold at a strip mall or some place near a lot of high schoolers(in a house or something), and hard drugs will be sold via house visits. Because the notion of standing on a corner, hustling/trapping/slanging just doesn't really apply to white people in general(not being racist, that's just the norm)

 

Also, keep in mind that street dealers sell all kinds of sh*t. That's why you'll hear rappers(especially southern rappers, even more so from Atlanta) talking about selling not only crack, but weed, coke, heroin, and even ecstasy and other pills. As seen

(that song may need a bit of translation, lol).

 

But yes, upper class drug dealers are far less likely to engage in an all out war over drugs like street dealers. At least, not as public. Since upper class folks tend to all be the same, it's pretty hard to point a drug dealer out of a crowd of white guys compared to a drug dealer in the projects, because while the white guy might just be wealthy in general, chances are, the street dealer wouldn't be in the ghetto selling drugs if he was wealthy, because he wouldn't be in the ghetto. And he definitely wouldn't have expensive jewelry, fancy cars with large rims, expensive clothing, and even gold teeth if he was poor.

 

Put simply, it all depends.

[II Goonah II]

I think it would be very good to be able to run businesses in the next GTA, illegal & legal.

 

For illegal, sellings drugs, stealing cars, arms dealing & anything else thats similar. For example, selling drugs will gain you small amounts of quick money, but you have to sell on your home patch before you can venture out into the city. Once you start hiring people to sell for you as your patch grows, attacks from other dealers should occur.

 

For legal, i'd like to see a car show room, a night club, a cab business & anthing else thats similar. (yes, I pretty much copied Vice City there) You have to make your businesses grow by some sort of advertising, (maybe driving around delieving leaflets for starters) and then you have to hire guards and staff. Also, you could ruin rival businesses but causing trouble in there work place.

 

I think R* could really create something special with this system, & it would really bring the GTA universe to light.