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Dingdongs

Ground Zero Mosque

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Maxim
Alright, I'm a fellow Muslim so what I say cant be offensive to my own religion.

 

Yes we Muslims have the rights to build it there but honestly, at Ground Zero? Couldnt have they build it somewhere else and not cause an uproar? Its like we're causing the hate by ourselves.

It's not "At" Ground Zero, it's two blocks away from it.

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BrownBear

I think no.

 

I also think that most muslims would agree with me.

As someone stated, if a mosque is built there then it just createss more tension between Americans and muslims, so everything will be covered up while the real enemies take your money every day but every one will be too focused on hating muslims because they get told to do so and don't realise it.

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TheBlackProject
so if we bomb mecca, 9 years later we can build a church there?

 

f*cking sick idea. build it, by all means, but not there. al quaeda must be loving this.

Since when has New York been a holy city?

 

 

ok, if america bombed Riyahd or Tehran

Tehran? What in the f*cking hell?

 

Holy sh*t, no wonder why all the students in my school say, "Ugh, history sucks we don't even need it! Especially World History because I mean the only populated countries are America and China right". I wish Americans liked history, most of them don't even like American history. I love history of the Wild West, but maybe that's because I'm a Texan.

 

ON TOPIC: Why Tehran? Please tell me, do you think Iran has a lot of Muslim people at all? Despite what the CIA says, there's not a lot of Muslims in Iran.

 

- Atheist Iranian

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Emhyr
so if we bomb mecca, 9 years later we can build a church there?

 

f*cking sick idea. build it, by all means, but not there. al quaeda must be loving this.

Since when has New York been a holy city?

 

 

ok, if america bombed Riyahd or Tehran

Tehran? What in the f*cking hell?

 

Holy sh*t, no wonder why all the students in my school say, "Ugh, history sucks we don't even need it! Especially World History because I mean the only populated countries are America and China right". I wish Americans liked history, most of them don't even like American history. I love history of the Wild West, but maybe that's because I'm a Texan.

 

ON TOPIC: Why Tehran? Please tell me, do you think Iran has a lot of Muslim people at all? Despite what the CIA says, there's not a lot of Muslims in Iran.

 

- Atheist Iranian

We all know everything about Iran,so you don't need to make your country look good. bored.gif

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Sanjeem

Although they have the right to, i'd say also no after changing my mind, like brownbear said, Americans will just think normal muslims are evil, and are taking over america, then americans will get nervouse, then theres a problem, causes riots, whilst the real terrorist, clever as they are hiding in their caves and uderground bases probably plan their next attack, it's not the normal muslims fault, i just think if they did things that don't cause americans to get to interested in, why not just build the mosque somwhere else, nobody would care, it would just be another religeous site, but no!

 

It's because of ground Zero, most americans probably accept this, but the world ain't all around understanding.

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Robinski

I'm all for it. Building anything associated with one particular group of any kind on the martyred land of Ground Zero itself would be stupid. But that's not what this is about, the mosque's around the corner or something. If people could pull their heads out of the sand and realise that in their "wars" they aren't fighting muslims, but terrorists, and the muslims are fighting terrorists and extremism just as much as them. The people here saying "we should go bomb [middle eastern city] and then ask for a church there" are exemplifying this in their attitude by equating the extremist muslims to the US as a whole.

 

This would be like saying there can't be any catholic churches in Northern Ireland after the numerous terrorist attacks there.

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Sanjeem

^^ Robinski summed up a perfect explination there itself, Terrorists that are muslim, are exstremists, People who say lets just kill all muslims, thats way we can be sure there are no more terrorists, are simply extremists themselves as much as the ones in the middle east. icon14.gif

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jimmy.

There so little to debate. Let them build it. People need to get over their self-righteous indignation so we can talk about something of actual substance. What hangs in the balance of this debate is whether or not a single building gets built and supposed injuries to symbolic, theoretical concepts like "American pride." Yet this has been one of the main political issues for the past month(?) or longer. The politicians must love that we're given them such an easy pass and not putting our attention toward real issues.

Edited by jimmy.

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Sckarface

I love you guys. I love these forums. You can definately get your opinion across unlike youtube were these ignorant pigs gun you down for stating your own opinion.

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jimmy.

 

Pro-watch. Glenn Greenwald pwns some bigot moron on this issue.

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darthYENIK

We have two choices. The first choice is to let them build two blocks away, out of sight and mind from those visiting ground zero. And even if it brings attention to Muslims, people will quickly forget about it.

 

Or the site is moved to this government land setting the precedence that the minority can be told what to do by the majority, simply to make the majority more comfortable.

 

Let me give an example. And not that stupid building a church in {insert random middle eastern city}. What if these weren't Muslims. Lets say these were Christians that led these attacks, and even proclaimed the reason is because the US supports countries like Israel and Kuwait (mostly non-Christians), and it was their duty as god fearing Christians. What if someone wanted to build a Christian church on the exact site of the deaths of thousands of people? Not two blocks away, the exact site. The majority would not care, because that's the religion they are comfortable with. They probably don't agree with the attackers, but it would be just another church for them. Hell they'd probably commend the builders as thoughtful and courageous.

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Tyler
reasonably said snip

Well, allow me to play devil's advocate against you in two ways.

 

Christian's view on life is that Jews are gods people, they would never attack Israel. Even if they didn't, A Christian person believes in humble practice of life and speech. They also aren't supposed to force belief into others, or shun other religions. Think I'm joking, research it.

 

 

Now, for the actual dependant of your hypothetical situation, which is any religion in general besides Muslims trying to build a worship centre on the same grounds that the majority of Americans believe they shed blood on. I do believe America would accept it if it were Christians, but, Christianity would have lost an amazing amount of support if 'Christian Extremists' (Good lord that sounds hilariously ironic) were the ones that had caused the fall of the twin towers, and loss of innocent life.

 

 

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jimmy.

I was over at the community center/mosque site 10 days ago. Did you know that the building is already being used as a mosque? The only thing that opposition is possibly going to prevent or forestall is the construction of a new mosque. But make no mistake, there already IS a makeshift mosque on Park Pl. It's just in a building that is in relatively poor condition. So I don't get what the issue is at all. Keep sh*tty decrepit buildings that no one wants junking up New York, rather than having a new building with a pool, restaurant, sports facilities, etc? Either way, 45 Park Pl is used as a worship space, as is the worshipers' legal right, and it will continue to be, as the developer has stated.

 

Current views of the building site.

user posted image

 

 

Or the site is moved to this government land setting the precedence that the minority can be told what to do by the majority, simply to make the majority more comfortable.

 

You could argue that this precedent already exists, though I by no means am trying to justify it. It is basically the concept of "eminent domain." Disadvantaged people get displaced to build sports stadiums, highways, government housing, other stuff like that, that is often more popular with the majority, and this happens often enough. Taking marginal people's land, and "redeveloping" it in the interests of government/large investors is not a new concept. Similar actions also happened to native Americans, of course. Eminent domain land confiscation often has to do with the class and sometimes race of the property owners, but this is the first time I've heard someone's religion discussed as the explicit reason. It also usually results in a new building being built, and not just preserving a sh*tty, decrepit building.

Edited by jimmy.

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Tyler

Well jimmy, I didn't want to tell you, but apparently someone slashed a Muslim man in a cab around the site of this mosque, after asking, "Are you Muslim?". It's pretty ironic, oh wait, I actually thought that something like that would happen.

 

But in all seriousness, I hope this quells the thought in all of your mind's that is saying 'Nothing will happen' if something like this is being planned. If you are planning on retorting back with something like 'the man wasn't influenced by the mosque thing', well I've got some news for you.

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jimmy.

 

Well jimmy, I didn't want to tell you, but apparently someone slashed a Muslim man in a cab around the site of this mosque, after asking, "Are you Muslim?". It's pretty ironic, oh wait, I actually thought that something like that would happen.

 

But in all seriousness, I hope this quells the thought in all of your mind's that is saying 'Nothing will happen' if something like this is being planned. If you are planning on retorting back with something like 'the man wasn't influenced by the mosque thing', well I've got some news for you.

 

I heard about it a few days ago. And to be correct, it was several neighborhoods away and completely crosstown from the mosque, placing the incident several miles away, so to say it happened "around the site of this mosque" is not all that accurate. And there may be violence by irrational people stirred up by our nation's leading demagogues, but one doesn't necessarily have to cave to it, if that's what you are suggesting. It's crystal clear that anti-Muslim opposition is bigger than Park51. Even before we were all talking about this issue, there was a mosque bombing in Florida in May of this year. Finding a new site for Park51 will not stop opposition to mosques in CA, TN, WI and elsewhere.

 

 

If you are planning on retorting back with something like 'the man wasn't influenced by the mosque thing', well I've got some news for you.

 

There's no direct evidence that I've heard linking his action to the mosque non-troversy. What have you heard? The fact that he had just come back from being embedded with coalition troops in Afghanistan could have had as much of an effect on him forming anti-Muslim sentiments as the mosque wedge issue.

Edited by jimmy.

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darthYENIK
Well jimmy, I didn't want to tell you, but apparently someone slashed a Muslim man in a cab around the site of this mosque, after asking, "Are you Muslim?". It's pretty ironic, oh wait, I actually thought that something like that would happen.

 

But in all seriousness, I hope this quells the thought in all of your mind's that is saying 'Nothing will happen' if something like this is being planned. If you are planning on retorting back with something like 'the man wasn't influenced by the mosque thing', well I've got some news for you.

So because a psychotic bigot attacked someone, we should give in to his demands? That is of course if that was his goal.

 

While we're at it we should make homosexuality illegal. Deport every immigrant no matter if they are legal or not. And then Discovery Channel should start showing more educational programming on overpopulation. Because crazy people attack and kill innocent people over those matters all the time.

 

Caving in would show the world that as long as you're willing to kill someone because they are different, that you can get what you want.

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Tyler

Not what I meant at all. People were chatting about how this would all blow over without violence, which was absurd. Change like this, won't come without the violence. I am all for the Mosque being built wherever, but the fact that people think building it won't generate any sort of violence around the area was pathetic.

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darthYENIK

Okay, I got ya.

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jimmy.
I am all for the Mosque being built wherever, but the fact that people think building it won't generate any sort of violence around the area was pathetic.

Not sure who was really saying that, but yes, it is "pathetic" to underestimate the violent tendencies of right-wing authoritarians. It was not the first bias attack against a perceived Muslim, and certainly not the last, as there have been subsequent ones since then.

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Jesus'En'Hitler420

It's okay to attack the whole of Western Culture, just not a specific part of it.

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Dingdongs

What a lot of you who are against it need to understand, is that you are not helping anyone. You're actually supporting the terrorists and supporting Bin Laden.

 

This what he wants. This is what him and al-Queda want. They want kind, peaceful Muslims to be hated and turned away by the American Public so they join al-Queda and become mindless suicide bombing drones. By attacking Muslims and calling this a "commander center for terror" or whatever else they say on Fox, you're just helping the terrorists win.

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Kwandilibro
I think no.

 

I also think that most muslims would agree with me.

As someone stated, if a mosque is built there then it just createss more tension between Americans and muslims, so everything will be covered up while the real enemies take your money every day but every one will be too focused on hating muslims because they get told to do so and don't realise it.

I agree with Brownbear.

 

I mean, freedom of religion is great and all, but come on. New Yorkers have damn near turned that site into a shrine. And we already have existing tension with Muslims. That's why they can't ride an airplane without getting those, "Stay away from me you dirty terrorist" looks. How could doing something like this help at all? It'll just cause an uproar. And what good is that?

 

If they want to build a mosque in Manhattan, fine. By all means, nobody but the Mayor's dusty ass is stopping you. But building it so close to ground zero, that just can't end well IMO.

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Tyler

First of all, kwan I have yet to respect any of the liberal sh*t you spew on here. Secondly, I disagree on the fact that the uproar itself is wrong, shouldn't be warranted, and is an example of how we really are.

 

But, It's the truth. No matter how you spell it this can only have some negatives. Going deeper into the idea though, I find myself thinking, "Why do I already expect there to be casualties? This should be something that New York would benefit from, as well as Muslims. Why does humanity and socio-logic already warrant the image of change being rejected?' It is wrong, but moreover, the fact that people are like that, is a bit more incorrect... at least by political standards.

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QwertyAAA

Why can't Americans get over it already? It's been nine years. Fifty times more people died today than in the terrorist attack.

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Kwandilibro

 

First of all, kwan I have yet to respect any of the liberal sh*t you spew on here. Secondly, I disagree on the fact that the uproar itself is wrong, shouldn't be warranted, and is an example of how we really are.

 

But, It's the truth. No matter how you spell it this can only have some negatives. Going deeper into the idea though, I find myself thinking, "Why do I already expect there to be casualties? This should be something that New York would benefit from, as well as Muslims. Why does humanity and socio-logic already warrant the image of change being rejected?' It is wrong, but moreover, the fact that people are like that, is a bit more incorrect... at least by political standards.

Well, I won't lie and tell you I'm a conservative person. No sir.

 

But honestly, if America was as free and peaceful as we claim, it's be a very different place. Because face it. Americans are intolerant. Some people hate blacks, some hate Hispanics, whites, Jews, women, Indian people, W. Indians, Muslims, etc. The drama doesn't stop. And there will always be some fighting. So I think it's safe to assume that something like this would lead to the same.

 

Is the uproar wrong? Yes. Everyone has the right to freedom of religion. Supposedly. But that's all bullsh*t when it gets down to it. Because come on, we said the same thing about equal rights for men, women, and African Americans. And just like always, the damn government was full of sh*t. So in the end, Muslims may not get what they deserve as much as anyone else in the country. But as usual, too damn bad. free country my ass.

 

@QwertyAAA, It took a long time for blacks to have equal rights. Even when we were free, we weren't. This country doesn't "get over" sh*t.

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QwertyAAA

 

@QwertyAAA, It took a long time for blacks to have equal rights. Even when we were free, we weren't. This country doesn't "get over" sh*t.

Every other country does. And you're talking about the prolonged cultural and political subjugation of a reasonably large percentage of the population, not the unfortunate deaths of a few thousand people because of a rogue terrorist group.

 

I admit that it is a tragedy, but, nine years later, it should be one on a personal level, not a cultural one. It's become a national obsession.

Edited by QwertyAAA

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Ari Gold

 

But honestly, if America was as free and peaceful as we claim, it's be a very different place. Because face it. Americans are intolerant. Some people hate blacks, some hate Hispanics, whites, Jews, women, Indian people, W. Indians, Muslims, etc. The drama doesn't stop. And there will always be some fighting. So I think it's safe to assume that something like this would lead to the same.

It's like that in every country, though. Particularly in Western countries. My mum was a Serb living in what's now Croatia (back then it was Yugoslavia), and before the wars in the 1990s nobody had any problems with her; she received minimal discrimination and was basically accepted for who she was. But, as soon as the war came around, half the people started treating her like she was a "Serbian rat", reminiscent of Nazi Germany and their distaste towards Jews.

 

What's sad about all this is that it's almost human nature to show apathy and displeasure to someone who isn't your ethnicity; the most rational thing for countries/people to do is just live with it and minimise it.

 

Like this mosque scandal, for example. Now, I have no huge problems with Islam (even though Muslim separatists still attempt disharmony in Serbia), but I think that this whole scandal is both insensitive on the part of the Islamic cleric, yet on the other side of the spectrum, extremely over-exaggerated by the media and American xenophobes. There are radical idiots in EVERY country, and of course some radical right-winger's going to react negatively and possibly attack Muslims, but don't forget that that particular radical might have lost relatives in 9/11 and has not coped/recovered well from it, so his apathy and dislike of Islam could almost be justified. But, on the other side, the media are portraying this cultural centre to be some haven for Al-Qaidah, so calling this mosque a "victory for the terrorists" is like calling Barack Obama's election victory in '08 a "victory for the Soviets". sigh.gif

 

The world and human nature's a cruel, cruel thing. But, you've just got to live with it.

Edited by Stefche

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BVJ

Why do people keep calling it a mosque? It isn't, sure there's a prayer centre as part of the building but it also includes a lot of other facilities, including a shrine to the VICTIMS of 9/11. Also there's already two mosques in lower manhattan. Have they got to move too?

 

 

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