Live rejected me

[CharmingCharlie]

 

@charmingcharlie, Don't get me wrong, I don't encourage pirating, but if companies see the need to sell you a product, and then when there is a problem (limited activations !), they tell you to shove it. Why would the OP have the need to spend even a penny more for this game, he already bought it.

Yeah I appreciate it can make someone feel that way, but lets face it you have to be a bit of a "noob" to not know about the "piracy option". I just don't think it should be broadcast and in this case it still wouldn't help him since he already has a working copy of GTA 4 and even if he pirated the game it wouldn't solve the problem of not having a legitimate key. I just feel PC gamers these days are a bit too quick to pull out the "oh well I will pirate it then" card.

 

At any rate we certainly don't do ourselves any favours telling people to pirate the game when the developer of the game actually uses this board. After all the old adage "two wrongs don't make a right" rings true here. The 15 activation limit is deplorable and one of the reasons why I will never touch a GFWL title ever again. In my view a 15 activation limit devalues the game to such an extent that I will happily wait till any GFWL approaches 5 bucks before I even entertain buying it and that includes anything from Rockstar.

 

There is an alternative option to all this, I have just seen that steam are doing a 3 hour deal on GTA 4. They are selling GTA 4 for £5 (which I think is $7.50 for the US). It is possible you could buy a copy from steam and use the CD key from that copy. As far as I am aware there is no difference between the keys for the steam version and the retail version.

Edited April 27, 2010 by CharmingCharlie

[sjaak327]

 

@charmingcharlie, Don't get me wrong, I don't encourage pirating, but if companies see the need to sell you a product, and then when there is a problem (limited activations !), they tell you to shove it. Why would the OP have the need to spend even a penny more for this game, he already bought it.

Yeah I appreciate it can make someone feel that way, but lets face it you have to be a bit of a "noob" to not know about the "piracy option". I just don't think it should be broadcast and in this case it still wouldn't help him since he already has a working copy of GTA 4 and even if he pirated the game it wouldn't solve the problem of not having a legitimate key. I just feel PC gamers these days are a bit too quick to pull out the "oh well I will pirate it then" card.

 

At any rate we certainly don't do ourselves any favours telling people to pirate the game when the developer of the game actually uses this board. After all the old adage "two wrongs don't make a right" rings true here. The 15 activation limit is deplorable and one of the reasons why I will never touch a GFWL title ever again. In my view a 15 activation limit devalues the game to such an extent that I will happily wait till any GFWL approaches 5 bucks before I buy it and that includes anything from Rockstar.

 

There is an alternative option to all this, I have just seen that steam are doing a 3 hour deal on GTA 4. They are selling GTA 4 for £5 (which I think is $7.50 for the US). It is possible you could buy a copy from steam and use the CD key from that copy. As far as I am aware there is no difference between the keys for the steam version and the retail version.

I agree with you, and indeed we shouldn't jump the gun like that. Allthough I hope R reads threads like this and for sake of customer satisfaction changes this policy (which I guess would mean not use GFWL anymore).

 

By the way, is there any way to see how many activations you've used up ? I did re-install the game several times on different computers for testing purposes. (and I have a suspicion that EFLC does count in all of this as well.)

[CharmingCharlie]

There is no way to see how many GFWL activations you have used I am afraid. It is just a case of Russian Roulette every time you do a GTA 4 install, one day you will install it, get past the securom drm and be hit with GFWL DRM screaming like a lil baby that you have used all your activations.

 

The solution that KruX posted is a good remedy although I have seen conflicting reports about whether that actually does preserve a GFWL activation. However it can't hurt to backup that folder just in case and you might save yourself a bit of grief

 

Alternatively if you care about your copy of GTA 4 then it might be wise to purchase a second back up copy that gives you 15 activations. You can pick up GTA 4 pretty cheaply now, as I said steam is doing a sale right now and selling GTA 4 dirt cheap. After all 7 bucks for a backup of a game you love isn't too much to ask (although technically you shouldn't have to buy any damn backup). That will give you a second cd key that can be used with the retail version.

 

These are the times we live in and we have to work around these annoyances. However we shouldn't just accept them and we should make sure this information gets out as much as possible so that others are aware of the situation and Rockstar/Microsoft might actually start listening to what their fans want rather than shoving crap like this down our throats.

[-zerox-]

I've tried the game on my other PC. I was wondering why LIVE asked the CD-key again. Well, now I know and I'm not happy about it. How does this "revoking system" works on Steam? What's the limit of installions?

 

This is just so stupid, not all users know what folder do they need to copy if they are going to reinstall Windows. It's like ticking bomb. E.g I reinstall my Windows every 2 months, and if I didn't know this I would eventually loose the game which I paid for... and yeah if you chance your hardware its the same thing. f*ck R*, most likely last game I buy from them if they keep using this sh*t.

 

e: btw, this topic should be set sticky.

Edited April 27, 2010 by -zerox-

[Extortionate]

Quoted.

 

Does GTA IV include any version of SecuROM? If so, what kind? Is it like a rootkit?

 

 

Rockstar: GTA IV PC uses SecuROM for protecting our EXE until street date has passed, to ensure the retail disk is in the computer drive, and is used for Product Activation of the title. Product Activation is a one time only online authentication when installing the game. GTA IV has no install limits for the retail disc version of the game, and that version can be installed on an unlimited number of PCs by the retail disk owner.

 

How many times will I need to authenticate my retail disk? I've purchased the game… why do I need to constantly remind your company that I'm not a dirty pirate?

 

Rockstar: You will only need to authenticate the retail disk once per Windows account per machine. Even if you uninstall and re-install the game, it will not have to be re-authenticated. There are some unique circumstances under which you may have to re-authenticate the software on a machine. For example, if you change any two 'major' components on your PC, i.e. CPU and video card, you will have to re-authenticate the title. Also, if you install on a different PC or under a different Windows account on the same machine, you will have to authenticate that installation as well, but this is standard to any software needing a serial.

 

EDIT: BTW, I cannot find any documentation saying there is limited amount of activations on GFWL. So is anyone going to post some facts backing this up or will it become a myth?

Edited April 27, 2010 by Extortionate

[kvic]

Sorry to hear about your trouble, but this just one example of m$ way of getting you to buy a shiney new sexbox 369 or one of those pee S 3's . Gaming systems for the computer illiterate!!!

[-zerox-]

Sorry to hear about your trouble, but this just one example of m$ way of getting you to buy a shiney new sexbox 369 or one of those pee S 3's . Gaming systems for the computer illiterate!!!

Yeah, and if that happens no doubt Windows will loose it's popularity. Linux offers almost everything that Windows does expect gaming.

[CharmingCharlie]

Extortionate why do you keep banging on about the securom DRM ? The TC does not appear to be having any problems with the securom drm, he appears to be having problems with the GFWL drm which Rockstar has not officially said a single thing about. If anything I am not that bothered about the securom DRM because I have some measure of control over it (it isn't perfect but what is). I do not have any control over the GFWL drm nor does anyone else, you can install and activate your game on GFWL 15 times and that is it.

 

Oh and if you want proof :-

 

 

we are only using standard Games for Windows Live non-SSA guidelines, which, per Microsoft, comes with 15 activations (after that, you can reset them with a call to Microsoft.)

http://www.2kgames.com/cultofrapture/artic...rmupdatescaling

 

That is a quote from Take Two games on Bioshock 2 which also uses GFWL for MP just like GTA 4 you will see that it says "standard Games for Windows Live non-SSA guidelines". There are two types of DRM in GFWL the standard one which gives you only 15 activations is used by the majority of games. The other one is SSA (server side authentication) ties the cd key to a gfwl account permanently.

 

It has been known for some time that GTA 4 uses GFWL non-ssa drm, I really can't understand why you had to ask for proof ? Do you think I come on here and just lie for the fun of it or something ? If you need more proof there is a topic on it in the GFWL forum :-

 

http://forums.gamesforwindows.com/p/2031/106372.aspx

[FireItUp]

TruXter, I have a key for ShadowRun that I don't think I've used. If you're interested just send me a pm and I'll get you the key so you can try it.

 

I have the same issue. I can use the key to get past the release date check bs, but signing it into live will not work anymore, so I just use a key from another game to sign in.

 

MS really pissed me off with this crap. Anyways let me know I'd be willing to give you that key for nothing.

[Extortionate]

 

Extortionate why do you keep banging on about the securom DRM ?  The TC does not appear to be having any problems with the securom drm, he appears to be having problems with the GFWL drm which Rockstar has not officially said a single thing about.  If anything I am not that bothered about the securom DRM because I have some measure of control over it (it isn't perfect but what is).  I do not have any control over the GFWL drm nor does anyone else, you can install and activate your game on GFWL 15 times and that is it.

 

Oh and if you want proof :-

 

 

we are only using standard Games for Windows Live non-SSA guidelines, which, per Microsoft, comes with 15 activations (after that, you can reset them with a call to Microsoft.)

http://www.2kgames.com/cultofrapture/artic...rmupdatescaling

 

That is a quote from Take Two games on Bioshock 2 which also uses GFWL for MP just like GTA 4 you will see that it says "standard Games for Windows Live non-SSA guidelines". There are two types of DRM in GFWL the standard one which gives you only 15 activations is used by the majority of games. The other time is SSA (server side authentication) ties the cd key to a gfwl account permanently.

 

It has been known for some time that GTA 4 uses GFWL non-ssa drm, I really can't understand why you had to ask for proof ? Do you think I come on here and just lie for the fun of it or something ? If you need more proof there is a topic on it in the GFWL forum :-

 

http://forums.gamesforwindows.com/p/2031/106372.aspx

I didn't say your were lying, I just want conformation. Is that too much to ask? I'd like to see some 'official' documentation on this rather than some third party link which is on about another game entirely.

 

Fallout 3 has a cursor bug. Is that a GFWL bug or a Fallout 3 bug? Nothing wrong with some clarity you see.

Edited April 27, 2010 by Extortionate

[viometrix]

i for one having a higher end machine and being a true gamer's gamer that wants every ounce of performance out my system will often reformatt every 2 - 4 months depending on my usage/abuse of my machine. and their are a great many of us gamers and enthusiasts that will. i have 7 copies og gta iv (i do have many computers too), but of those 7 2 of them are out of GFWL activations even though i revoked every single activation through securom. for me it is a mater of just buying another copy when i need, they are cheap enough.

 

i have also made back ups of games like this, that if needed can now restore every entry and the associated programs so i do not need to activate anymore, and is in no way imoral or illegal. but that too takes some know how of what files, programs and registry entries to back up. but now i wont lose any more activations either way.

 

but yes games for windows is greedy like that, and i dont know a way around it after the fact.

[ikt]

 

i for one having a higher end machine and being a true gamer's gamer that wants every ounce of performance out my system will often reformatt every 2 - 4 months depending on my usage/abuse of my machine. and their are a great many of us gamers and enthusiasts that will. i have 7 copies og gta iv (i do have many computers too), but of those 7 2 of them are out of GFWL activations even though i revoked every single activation through securom. for me it is a mater of just buying another copy when i need, they are cheap enough.

 

i have also made back ups of games like this, that if needed can now restore every entry and the associated programs so i do not need to activate anymore, and is in no way imoral or illegal. but that too takes some know how of what files, programs and registry entries to back up. but now i wont lose any more activations either way.

 

but yes games for windows is greedy like that, and i dont know a way around it after the fact.

Is it possible to CTRL-C CTRL-V the game folder for backup use on the same machine? And restore that?

Edited April 28, 2010 by ikt

[CharmingCharlie]

 

I didn't say your were lying, I just want conformation. Is that too much to ask? I'd like to see some 'official' documentation on this rather than some third party link which is on about another game entirely.

 

Ok so you don't believe a Take Two executive when they detail the STANDARD DRM that comes with GFWL titles. Now fair enough it is in relation to Bioshock 2 however did you miss the word STANDARD i.e Bioshock 2 is using the STANDARD GFWL DRM just like GTA 4 uses the STANDARD Games for Windows Live activation system.

 

You just need to look around the net to see people hit this limit in fallout 3, Dawn of War, Batman AA and naturally GTA 4. Now fine I can't find a link that has a DNA imprint from Microsoft games detailing every last minuscule specification of their DRM. However surely you have read and seen enough to now know that there is definitely a limit on activations when a game uses GFWL. I mean hell you have testimony from people in here that have hit the limit but that still isn't good enough ?

 

 

Fallout 3 has a cursor bug. Is that a GFWL bug or a Fallout 3 bug? Nothing wrong with some clarity you see.

 

As for your example erm well lets say the GFWL client says "oh your cursor looks a bit gay I don't like that so go away" then yeah I would say that is a GFWL issue. The cd key gets rejected by the games for windows live client clearly stating it has been used too many times. So it is clearly down to some activation limits with GFWL if it is GFWL complaining that the cd key has been used too much.

 

Oh and would people please stop encouraging piracy it is clearly against the rules of this board and it WOULD NOT HELP THE TC. He has a working copy of GTA 4 and he can play it as much as he likes in SP, however because of the activations limits in GFWL (which some doubt exist) he is unable to play MP without a legit key. Now I fail to see how pirating the game is going to somehow magic up a legit key for him.

[Extortionate]

 

I didn't say your were lying, I just want conformation. Is that too much to ask? I'd like to see some 'official' documentation on this rather than some third party link which is on about another game entirely.

 

Ok so you don't believe a Take Two executive when they detail the STANDARD DRM that comes with GFWL titles. Now fair enough it is in relation to Bioshock 2 however did you miss the word STANDARD i.e Bioshock 2 is using the STANDARD GFWL DRM just like GTA 4 uses the STANDARD Games for Windows Live activation system.

 

You just need to look around the net to see people hit this limit in fallout 3, Dawn of War, Batman AA and naturally GTA 4. Now fine I can't find a link that has a DNA imprint from Microsoft games detailing every last minuscule specification of their DRM. However surely you have read and seen enough to now know that there is definitely a limit on activations when a game uses GFWL. I mean hell you have testimony from people in here that have hit the limit but that still isn't good enough ?

 

 

Fallout 3 has a cursor bug. Is that a GFWL bug or a Fallout 3 bug? Nothing wrong with some clarity you see.

 

As for your example erm well lets say the GFWL client says "oh your cursor looks a bit gay I don't like that so go away" then yeah I would say that is a GFWL issue. The cd key gets rejected by the games for windows live client clearly stating it has been used too many times. So it is clearly down to some activation limits with GFWL if it is GFWL complaining that the cd key has been used too much.

 

Oh and would people please stop encouraging piracy it is clearly against the rules of this board and it WOULD NOT HELP THE TC. He has a working copy of GTA 4 and he can play it as much as he likes in SP, however because of the activations limits in GFWL (which some doubt exist) he is unable to play MP without a legit key. Now I fail to see how pirating the game is going to somehow magic up a legit key for him.

Ultimately, we all agreed to the license and what it entails. I don't see how people can moan about such things when they have agree to the licence. Typically, people blindly agree and then think it's not fair, when it's the users' fault. You don't like the activation scheme? Think it's unfair, well it's your own fault because you agreed to it.

 

 

This is standard with proprietary software, Microsoft and such companies have you owned right from the minute you agree to such licences. If you don't like it, don't agree to it and if you agree, there is not much more you can do except challenge it in court. Good luck with that.

[_Rob_]

It's not about arguing. It's a simple fact that you don't and shouldn't never need to use up all 15 activations. That's 15 activations per game right?

 

Who in their right mind activates and reinstalls a game 15 times? Seriously!

 

EDIT: Or even GFWL for that matter.

I do for a start, people mod the game, get bored and re-install, etc etc, it is a very poor idea, Window's stuff is always getting pirated, and it seems that the more stuff they do to stop pirating the more people are pushed into doing it, It's quite similar to that stupid "you wouldn't steal" advert on every freakin DVD that is legal, whereas piraters just get rid, it's so stupid that people paying for the software or movies get the raw deal

[CharmingCharlie]

 

Ultimately, we all agreed to the license and what it entails. I don't see how people can moan about such things when they have agree to the licence. Typically, people blindly agree and then think it's not fair, when it's the users' fault. You don't like the activation scheme?  Think it's unfair, well it's your own fault because you agreed to it.

 

 

This is standard with proprietary software, Microsoft and such companies have you owned right from the minute you agree to such licences. If you don't like it, don't agree to it and if you agree, there is not much more you can do except challenge it in court. Good luck with that.

Yeah we knew about it didn't we .............. Oh wait no we didn't the only drm mentioned by Rockstar was the securom drm. I was naturally pacified that there was a revoke tool because at least I had some measure of control. If I wanted to put a new OS on my PC then I could just revoke my activation and do normal PC stuff that I do. They never said anything about the 15 life time activations in GFWL, in fact it has only NOW been officially acknowledged that there is a 15 activation limit on games for windows live titles via Take Two.

 

So I fail to see how you can accuse people of going "blindly" into these licences when we weren't even told about the restrictions. I can tell you now if I had known about the 15 activations limit I still wouldn't own even ONE copy of GTA 4 today .......... hm could that be why they didn't tell us then ? Now good on MS and Rockstar they caught me out with GTA 4 nice one they won't f*cking catch me again though. I now refuse to touch any GFWL title and I will continue to leave that crap on the shelf or wait till such a time the game is the price of a cheese sandwich which is all the software is worth with these activations limits.

 

[Extortionate]

Well I'm sorry to spell out the reality of things to you in the proprietary world but that's how it is. If you want software freedom, Windows and it's lock-in technologies are not the ones to pick.

 

Nobody reads the licensing Charlie and even if it was mentioned, you would have agreed to it and you know it.

Edited April 27, 2010 by Extortionate

[quechus13]

It's not about arguing. It's a simple fact that you don't and shouldn't never need to use up all 15 activations. That's 15 activations per game right?

 

Who in their right mind activates and reinstalls a game 15 times? Seriously!

 

EDIT: Or even GFWL for that matter.

people that mod the games -_-

[CharmingCharlie]

Yeah you keep bigging that crap up, seriously lose the hard on for linux no one cares. Especially in this thread which was supposed to be about helping Truxter. All you have done is cast your self as some high and mighty linux user that looks down on us pathetic windows users.

 

Now seriously if all you are going to contribute to this topic is "ha ha your own fault for buying software" then that really isn't all that helpful now is it ? Yes we all know Windows is a drm mess and if we all had a choice I am sure most of us would ditch Microsoft in a second (I know I would). However most of the software we want to use is only available on the microsoft platform.

 

As for the licensing whether I read it or not is neither here nor there, you accused users of just blindly accepting it. I just showed we did not blindly accept it we were never told about it. I sure as hell never knew that GFWL had extra DRM, it never even entered my head that not only would they use Securom but they would have GFWL DRM too.

 

As for whether I would have agreed to it if I had known .......... erm no I wouldn't have agreed to it. In my view a limit on activations is one of the most moronic things you can do on a platform where users routinely install and reinstall software. The securom drm had a measure of "user control" which pacified me enough to put up with it, the GFWL drm has no such control and just f*cks people off. So no I wouldn't have agreed to it but then they never "offered" me the chance to agree to it did they.

[Extortionate]

Did you read this part?

 

 

TERMINATION/ACCESS RESTRICTION

Microsoft reserves the right, in its sole discretion, to terminate your access to any or all GFW Web Site and the related services or any portion thereof at any time, without notice.

 

It makes the 15 activation issue look like a minor issue.

[CharmingCharlie]

Yep I was right all you ever do is argue till the cows come home, anyway I am done with this topic. There is just no point in me carrying this on. I only posted in here to try and discourage people from "bigging up piracy" I should have known that you would have to make an issue out of every single damn thing.

[FireItUp]

The 15 activation limit has to be some what new, because there is no way I reformatted/reinstalled IV 15 times.

 

EDIT: I just use xliveless now. I don't find GTA IV MP interesting at all (I probably would if there was more coop missions) and the achievements do absolutely nothing for me.

Edited April 27, 2010 by FireItUp

[Extortionate]

Says the person who comes in here to purely moan about Rockstar and their services now days. Why do you bother? If you've stop playing GTA IV, why bother even talk in the forums?

 

 

[quechus13]

Says the person who comes in here to purely moan about Rockstar and their services now days. Why do you bother? If you've stop playing GTA IV, why bother even talk in the forums?

man just let it go

he isnt a mod anymore but im sure that if he was a mod you wouldnt have said all that.

 

now as far as i know i reinstalled GTA IV 7 times

and no alerts or anything if it happens i will sue GFWL for this

 

 

[sjaak327]

Ultimately, we all agreed to the license and what it entails. I don't see how people can moan about such things when they have agree to the licence. Typically, people blindly agree and then think it's not fair, when it's the users' fault. You don't like the activation scheme? Think it's unfair, well it's your own fault because you agreed to it.

 

 

This is standard with proprietary software, Microsoft and such companies have you owned right from the minute you agree to such licences. If you don't like it, don't agree to it and if you agree, there is not much more you can do except challenge it in court. Good luck with that.

How is using a product the user's fault. WHen all is said and done, the user did pay for the product. Incidentially can someone show me the part where it specifically tells you, that after an activation or 15 you cannot use the product anymore. Here in Europe the courts would have a field day with utter crap like that. Why would software be any different from normal products ?

 

I cannot use the product because some dodgy activation scheme, fair enough, either get me a new key or a full refund, seems to me perfectly reasonable.

 

Incidentially, such crap licenses have a good chance to be contested at the courts, but usually nobody bothers as the amount concerned isn't high enough, rest assured that if say Oracle rolls out a ERP system at multination X, such crap bullsh*t license agreements don't hold out for a single second, and rightly so.

 

At the end of the day it is day time robbery.

 

 

[DJ24966]

I don't see the big deal, just call again and get them to reset it. They have reset my Halo 2 key numerous times. Hell, a buddy of mine called Microsoft when Halo 2 was first delayed and said his key didn't work, they asked him for the key and he gave them his original Halo 1 key and they gave him a new one, game activated before it was even officially out. If a company is going to screw with you, do the same to them. If my key ever goes out I'll just call and get it reset. If they deny my request I'll keep bugging them until they accept it, simple as that.

[Andrew]

Did you read this part?

 

 

TERMINATION/ACCESS RESTRICTION

Microsoft reserves the right, in its sole discretion, to terminate your access to any or all GFW Web Site and the related services or any portion thereof at any time, without notice.

 

It makes the 15 activation issue look like a minor issue.

 

Standard clause in every single Terms of Service, for any website, service or peice of software. You'll find it in em all.

 

Quite frankly I'm rather appalled at the that they feel the need to limit the activiations, that's pathetic. If they are going to do that, they may as well charge a much lower price for the game. Rather then £40 for 15 uses, they may as well charge £20 or less. They charge a ton, yet you never actually own the game.

 

You don't have that problem in linux, because their is no huge profit to be made with targeting linux. If a lot more recent titles started having native linux support, then you can bet your bottom dollar that DRM will find it's way over there.

 

And 15 limit is far too low, in fact I'm probably near the 5 limit for securom, since no where did it tell me I needed to revoke it when I want to reinstall my computer. I test a heck of a lot of software and do a ton of development on my machine, after about a year or so. It is deperately in need of a reformat. Not to mention before I go back to uni, it will probably be getting a wipe so it's nice and clean.

 

Your only choice is agree, otherwise you can't play the game you just bought, and have your damnded luck trying to get a retailer to take it back just because you don't agree with the license.

 

@ALL this topic is to help truexter, NOT to debate about the pros, cons of DRM or who's arse is holier then whos. The off topic stops, now.

 

@Extortionate, stfu and kindly stay out of this topic. All of your posts in here, have been attacking someone or something and seem to have this air that they are mighter then everyone else because you use linux.

[viometrix]

Extortionate you do seem to have answer for everything, or an argument as the case may be. so plain and simple, there is a eula yes, do we spend the time to read it? no, we are humans. dont f*cking say you read them either, cause there are just too many to read, you spend every minute of your life doing it. i even heard of companies stating in that print they owned your soul to see you if you actually read these things. you know what, out of 10,000 people, 1 actually read it and caught it. so get of your high horse im more perfect than everyone atititude. because i hate to tell you the reality of the world, the way it should be is not how it is!!! if everyone read everything, did as they are suppossed to we would have no prisons, war, famine or anything. all you do when you explain your righteous this is how it is or should be bullsh*t is make people angry. i see your point on some things, but most of it is so right wing out in left field it borders on absurdity and idiocism.

 

oh and i to use linux, unix, sun solaris, windows, and unfortunately mac osx.

Edited April 27, 2010 by viometrix

[Extortionate]

I didn't attack anyone and I don't claim to be on any high house about Linux. The simple fact is, I just showed the reality of thing and some people cannot except that.

 

I won't take any more part in this thread being as I'm forced into a corner here. truexter has been bitten by the reality of things which is unfortunate.

[viometrix]

oh we are all very aware of the sad reality of things. just very often what seems real, obvious or just what should logically be right very often just dont apply.