Car Chases and Police AI

[RomanViking]

I just think police AI and chases should be a central priority for Rockstar. Car chases should be the funnest part of GTA, the second funnest thing being shootouts.

 

I want everyone to watch this car chase. Just watch it K? Also please see near the end, when they go the wrong way on a freeway...

 

 

 

Everything shown can be put into game form. I have no doubt that a close interactive representation is completely possible with current technology.

 

Vehicle physics are very real in many modern games, GTA IV doesn't come nearly close enough. Easily forgivable considering the already huge leap forward, so I'm just looking at what I expect of the next game.

 

 

 

 

How Rockstar can make car chases better:

Specifically that Ronin car chase. Why is it fun to watch? What is different about it from being chased by police in GTA IV?

 

 

(1) Little tiny bumps in the road, the camera not hovering perfectly still during 1st person sections. Streets are not perfectly flat, and the faster you go, the more the minuscule imperfections will affect you --- Liberty City's streets are often impossibly flat --- especially in real life street intersections, the roads are slightly lower at the sides, than in the center, and a wider (or more important) street will be a few inches higher than the side street --- so speeding across one from a side street will usually feel very jerky, almost like a road-bump. It's all smoothed out and rounded, but streets are not perfectly flat --- the edges sink lower than the center.

 

Liberty City has potholes and patches in the pavement, and countless examples of detail. So more minuscule, physical bumps in the road are possible in future games.

 

 

 

 

(2) Smoke, burnouts/peel outs, screeching tires. GTA IV has a nice vehicle suspension system --- cars visibly lean slightly going around corners, or stopping suddenly. Smoke, screeching rubber, and general effects are lacking though, and should be more prominent in future GTA titles. If you do some sliding around corners in GTA5, you should really see and hear the stress your car goes through.

 

 

 

 

(3) Death and Crashing:Let me ask you something GTAForum member --- have you ever played Frogger? the game where you're a frog trying to cross a highway of speeding cars?

 

What makes that game fun, is that getting hit results in death --- it's skill based, and you have to watch out --- but as a result it's very fun, it's get's intense because you're doing something dangerous, and death will happen if you make a wrong move.

 

This is what a game with car chases should be like. You'd be dodging on-coming traffic, swerving around trying to lose the police --- it would be intense because you're in real danger, a serious mistake would be fatal. GTA IV is completely unlike this --- literally every vehicle crash is survivable, even a head-on collision with a train won't hurt you. You only die from being shot or flying through the windshield.

 

It's like Frogger but if the cars only slowed you down, rather than killing you.

 

If every car collision does nothing, how is driving fast around a city going to be fun? Intensity and fun (in this style of videogame) comes from the fear of death, dodging death by mere inches. But when you take away death, even when you drive directly into opposite traffic flow, all of that fun & fear goes out the window. Dodging traffic ceases to be exciting when even direct hits do nothing but dent your car... It becomes an annoyance, and something that just slows you down, rather than what's actually giving you the fun..

 

 

 

Games are more complex now, but the essential underlying theme of dodging and skill should remain. For example, a sword-fighting videogame would cease to be fun if you took a direct slice from your enemies sword, yet you could continue afterward as if nothing happened..

 

Imagine a car chase in a movie, where someone drives into direct on-coming traffic at 100mph, his car get's dented and comes to a sudden stop, but afterward he just backs up and the chase continues...

It would be retarded, all the fear and excitement would be gone as the audience would now know that no matter what, he'd still survive.

 

The fear of death, and coming inches from certain death is pretty much what makes driving dangerously a fun activity. Take out the danger, and the only fun is the visuals of flying past stuff at high speed.

 

 

 

 

(4) AI, specifically police behind the wheel: This is the part Rockstar will really have to work the most on. It's the most essential part in a car chase, if it's in single player. I feel that's it's the most severely out of date part of GTA, and the part the developers have disregarded the most.

 

A car chase should have one or more people speeding away in one vehicle, and people in another car chasing them & trying to stop them. Criminals being pursued by the police. GTA IV fails at this 9 times out of 10.

 

The police in GTA IV have deep pathfinding. They can move around the city remarkably well I think. The fundamental problem seems to be their speed --- they can figure out how to get to you, but they just can't do it fast enough.

 

When you're speeding away in a car and swerving thru traffic, the police in their cars simply can't keep up. It just pains me to see this happen over and over. You practically have to pull over and come to a completely stop for 10 seconds in order for that pathetic police car to catch up to you...

 

 

Now, I'm going to bring up a very old game from 10 years ago, released in the year 2000. Driver 2 for PSone. This game had extremely simple police AI code. There were no helicopters or shootouts, police never exited their cars. It's an ancient game; I bring it up tho, because the police in that game could actually chase you.

 

Despite probably having 100 lines of code for AI, total, completely simple AI; it had police capable of keeping up. You'd swerve in and out of traffic, slide around corners, yet that first cop you pissed off 3 miles back was still chasing. To lose them you had to use actual skill, pretty much trick them into crashing --- you'd have to swerve around traffic and then barely skid between two really-close-together cars to get the cops off you.

 

 

 

 

 

In conclusion,

Rockstar should work and work, all these things need to be dealt with. It's not even something Rockstar should improve on if they have time, it's an essential thing. One of first main focuses of GTA V should be on car chases and AI. Yes, do everything else they do, but spend at least 20-30% of resources on vehicle pursuits and AI. This is Grand Theft Auto --- Auto, as in automobile, is in the title --- it's a crime game and you can make the police "want" you.

 

So the act of stealing a car or committing a crime, and then losing the police, should have a much larger role in where the game's thrills are derived from.

 

 

 

People complain about having nothing to do after the storyline:

You can only shoot so many infinite cops, and eventually get outgunned before it becomes boring. Making car chases genuinely exciting, and having an actual chase take place would make for a stronger experience. and prolong experimentation/sandbox thrills.

 

 

 

Another thing I want to mention about GTA IV, is the respawning of cop cars, and their apparent psychic abilites. But I'm kinda tired, so I'll just say that often times the police seem psychic when they still know it's you, even after you switch cars out of their view..

 

 

 

Thank you for reading, please discuss

[New Liberty State]

I completely agree with this topic.

 

If Rockstar doesn´t see this, their next game will suck ass

 

Cars are the most important thing in this game, IV chase system sucked IMO

 

Chinatown Wars (which is for Handheld Consoles only) had the best Police chase system in GTA

Edited March 27, 2010 by New Liberty State

[ikt]

(1)

That would be near impossible with todays technologies. The little bumps you SEE are caused by bumpmapping, the actual road is indeed flat. Otherwise, making realistic roads, things would be WAY too hard to handle for hardware, and the modellers will go nuts. It would be nice, but it's near impossible unless you have a few Core i7 980X' linked to a few GTX480. It's just too much. (Liberty City is big, even nowadays hardware have trouble with rendering the 'flat' LC you mention)

 

(2)

Totally agree, cars are too silent now. More cinematic dramatic effects would be welcome. Especially sound has to be re-done. (I can't even hear the engine revving unless i turn the sould up very loud).

 

(3)

Hehe, indeed, crashing should result in loss of health. NFS: Shift effects would be totally awesome.

 

(4)

Also agree, cops can never catch me. R* needs to add smart police using tactics. NFS: Most Wanted has cops who surround your car and stop it. In GTA, cops just drive behind you. If you're unlucky, you'll get hit frontal by cops.

[Akavari]

it's Mark Anthony Volpe and Rami Yalon riding in the same car... to whoever gets the reference

[CookPassBabtridge]

I agree with much of this OP. Sound effects also. I was a little suprised how weak some of the faster vehicles still sound in IV.

 

One thing I would like to see, is a change to the one and two star wanted levels; there should be a bribe system (which technically there is already, but doesnt happen until you spawn at the police station) that gives you the option to pay a hefty fine and carry on your journey, or get busted as normal. As it is, its effectively 'game over' if you cant be arsed losing the one star etc.

 

Also spike strips, these were fun in a sadistic way in the older games, at least it gave a real challenge to your driving skills.

[DannyLee94]

If you are looking for inspiration as regards to police and gang chases in the next GTA game. Play GTA Chinatown Wars on the PSP, they are absolutely amazing in the way that you must make a 'Po-Po' car crash so that it becomes totalled, which gradually decreases your wanted star rating. This is the way to do it!

 

Off Topic: Drug Dealing was also a nice feature as if you bought too many 'hard' drugs you would get an immediate 2 star wanted rating. I have even made a dealing help guide on the CTW forum.

 

Play CTW if youre looking for rapid fast-action chases, trust me its definately the best car chase GTA game (and thats not just with police patrol cars!)

[The_Mario_Man]

I also think that you police AI could use improvements. I never liked how reckless they were around civilians (and eachother)

 

I'd like to see them actually use tactics like trying to box you in and slow you down, or deliberately leading you to dead ends.

 

I also remember seeing a news program once where the police contacted a semitruck driver a few miles up and had him block the road with his truck to stop the chase. Something like that would be amazing to see happen.

 

(Dashboard camera wouldn't hurt either)

Edited March 27, 2010 by The_Mario_Man

[Lunatic8randon]

People always called me insane for wanting lethal car crashes and more realistic driving physics in GTA. I also want to see manual cars, as an option and first person dashboard view for driving.

[General Goose]

I agree with these suggestions, but I think the first one, for the most part, needs to wait for better hardware, or at least until people know how to exploit the current hardware to its full potential.

 

I played GTA IV for the first time in quite a while yesterday, and most of my time was spent in police chases. It was too easy to speed away if you had a decent car, decent skill and decent luck, I agree. But I do love the way the cars try ramming you off the road, and sometimes hole you in with cars, blocking your movement and then sending foot officers to try drag you out on foot.

 

One thing I wish for is more adaptive police AI, if you know what I mean; in both shootouts and chases. I think in terms of chases this exists to an extent already, but I'm not sure. If not, it should be expanded.

 

If you don't know what I mean, here's a shootout example. Say you were having a shootout in the middle of a long urban road, and abandoned cars were scattered everywhere. Well, let's say by default the police try hiding behind a blockage of cars at the end of a road, and ambulances and snipers wait behind them. But say you get a rocket launcher and begin blowing it all up. They'll move the snipers and ambulances elsewhere and to safety, and will approach you on a more individual, spread out basis to make rockets not cost-productive.

 

And a chase example. If you're in a fast, speedy vehicle, they will counter with both fast, speedy vehicles and the occasional heavy roadblock on a likely escape route and an occasional heavier vehicle to try shoot you down or crash you, but won't waste time with sending big bulky vehicles to try and keep up with you. THey'll also send more police officers on the beat to areas not known to be in the chase but still potential escape routes if you manage to slip away, making it harder to escape the web of police keeping an eye out for the speeding red Infernus. On the other hand, in a big heavy vehicle, they won't waste time and money with fast, speedy vehicles, but will focus on firepower and numbers.

[Spaghetti Cat]

Simple answer:

 

Spike Strips + Physical Damage in car = Win

 

(tho it would suck in MP)

[vincentmillidge]

Escaping from the police in the Driver game was excellant you had to properly out drive them. driving the wrong way down roads trying to get the police to make a mistake and crash... etc

[Algonquin Bridge]

All lovely, but I have a slight issue with point No. 3. It'd be incredibly annoying trying to do one chase mission over and over again, after being killed by a realistically random car pulling into the junction ahead of you. There's a sliding scale of Realism = Fun that for some would have "losing health/dying in car crash" as being highly realistic and not fun or as a balance between the two.

 

R* has taken a step in the right direction with being flung out of the windscreen at high speed collisions. However, they need to make it a more common occurrence and perhaps with a bit higher damage penalty to truly introduce a bit more danger.

[Beg2Live4Life]

 

I also think that you police AI could use improvements. I never liked how reckless they were around civilians (and eachother)

 

I'd like to see them actually use tactics like trying to box you in and slow you down, or deliberately leading you to dead ends.

 

I also remember seeing a news program once where the police contacted a semitruck driver a few miles up and had him block the road with his truck to stop the chase. Something like that would be amazing to see happen.

 

(Dashboard camera wouldn't hurt either)

If you really want to see good A.I's why don't you just go and play online. You could play with me online and trust me I would give you the chase of your life until I total your car. When you get out of your car, I would chase after you and shot you in the balls until I'm sure you can't make any more sluts of your own. When you're just about to die, I would let you run just to build up your self confidence and make you think you can outrun me. When you think you're just about to outrun me I would come out of no where with a shopper and nuke your sorry ass to paradise. And while the dark cinematic camera would be hovering over your dead body, you would be able to see me crouching up and down over your face. The humiliation would be so horrible that you would be able to smell, through your TV, the sweat from my genitals that I built up by chassing after your sorry ass. After all that you would be none other than one more player added to my infamous list of already killed players. At least you would have one hell of a story to tell and you would never dare to complain that the A.I's suck once more because you would appreciate the politeness that the A.I's have towards you.

[New Liberty State]

I also think that you police AI could use improvements. I never liked how reckless they were around civilians (and eachother)

 

I'd like to see them actually use tactics like trying to box you in and slow you down, or deliberately leading you to dead ends.

 

I also remember seeing a news program once where the police contacted a semitruck driver a few miles up and had him block the road with his truck to stop the chase. Something like that would be amazing to see happen.

 

(Dashboard camera wouldn't hurt either)

If you really want to see good A.I's why don't you just go and play online. You could play with me online and trust me I would give you the chase of your life until I total your car. When you get out of your car, I would chase after you and shot you in the balls until I'm sure you can't make any more sluts of your own. When you're just about to die, I would let you run just to build up your self confidence and make you think you can outrun me. When you think you're just about to outrun me I would come out of no where with a shopper and nuke your sorry ass to paradise. And while the dark cinematic camera would be hovering over your dead body, you would be able to see me crouching up and down over your face. The humiliation would be so horrible that you would be able to smell, through your TV, the sweat from my genitals that I built up by chassing after your sorry ass. After all that you would be none other than one more player added to my infamous list of already killed players. At least you would have one hell of a story to tell and you would never dare to complain that the A.I's suck once more because you would appreciate the politeness that the A.I's have towards you.

lmao, this post made my day

[The_Mario_Man]

I also think that you police AI could use improvements. I never liked how reckless they were around civilians (and eachother)

 

I'd like to see them actually use tactics like trying to box you in and slow you down, or deliberately leading you to dead ends.

 

I also remember seeing a news program once where the police contacted a semitruck driver a few miles up and had him block the road with his truck to stop the chase. Something like that would be amazing to see happen.

 

(Dashboard camera wouldn't hurt either)

If you really want to see good A.I's why don't you just go and play online. You could play with me online and trust me I would give you the chase of your life until I total your car. When you get out of your car, I would chase after you and shot you in the balls until I'm sure you can't make any more sluts of your own. When you're just about to die, I would let you run just to build up your self confidence and make you think you can outrun me. When you think you're just about to outrun me I would come out of no where with a shopper and nuke your sorry ass to paradise. And while the dark cinematic camera would be hovering over your dead body, you would be able to see me crouching up and down over your face. The humiliation would be so horrible that you would be able to smell, through your TV, the sweat from my genitals that I built up by chassing after your sorry ass. After all that you would be none other than one more player added to my infamous list of already killed players. At least you would have one hell of a story to tell and you would never dare to complain that the A.I's suck once more because you would appreciate the politeness that the A.I's have towards you.

Are you okay?

[Vecceti]

No, I like watching cops flip upside down before they even reach me, it's utterly hilarious.

 

No, seriously, they should really make them more intense

[Beg2Live4Life]

I also think that you police AI could use improvements. I never liked how reckless they were around civilians (and eachother)

 

I'd like to see them actually use tactics like trying to box you in and slow you down, or deliberately leading you to dead ends.

 

I also remember seeing a news program once where the police contacted a semitruck driver a few miles up and had him block the road with his truck to stop the chase. Something like that would be amazing to see happen.

 

(Dashboard camera wouldn't hurt either)

If you really want to see good A.I's why don't you just go and play online. You could play with me online and trust me I would give you the chase of your life until I total your car. When you get out of your car, I would chase after you and shot you in the balls until I'm sure you can't make any more sluts of your own. When you're just about to die, I would let you run just to build up your self confidence and make you think you can outrun me. When you think you're just about to outrun me I would come out of no where with a shopper and nuke your sorry ass to paradise. And while the dark cinematic camera would be hovering over your dead body, you would be able to see me crouching up and down over your face. The humiliation would be so horrible that you would be able to smell, through your TV, the sweat from my genitals that I built up by chassing after your sorry ass. After all that you would be none other than one more player added to my infamous list of already killed players. At least you would have one hell of a story to tell and you would never dare to complain that the A.I's suck once more because you would appreciate the politeness that the A.I's have towards you.

Are you okay?

Ya, I'm doing great! How about you

[Cara_Cougar #16]

Totally agree with the OP.

 

Slightly off topic perhaps, (or maybe not), you know how when you stay on bikes for a second in IV you put a helmet on? Well I think they should do that with cars, except you put a seatbelt on, meaning you cant fly out the windscreen. Also, Head ons with other vehicles or walls should totally crumble the front of a car, so it is more life like, making it useless or decrease its performance. It should also hurt the player and take off some health too. (This is only for high speed, totally solid object crashed).

 

Car chases didn't exist in IV (I think), and I believe criminal shootouts with other criminals, or cops, should be much more frequent. (I don't think they existed either, only cop chasing peds). I like to start cop shootouts with gunshop owners and his buddies.

 

As for the wanted level system, I believe a mixture of IV's and Chinatown Wars should be in place. Or just simply both so you can choose the safe way, or choose the crash and bash way. For the week I played Chinatown Wars (After breaking my Ipod Touch after having it for a week, via me slamming my bag on the ground, thus wrecking my phone as well lol) I found it frustrating at times also. I had no problems with IV's system and I found Chinatown Wars' system extremely fun at times, so IMO they should have both.

[Interrobangin]

I already find that I have a lot of fun dodging and speeding GTA IV, only to face a buzzkill when I get nailed by a fade-in or one of the oblivious other cars swerving in to me for no other reason other than to swerve in to me.