Texas Messes with History

[Tetsuo2501]

 

Long a proponent of including nonscientific creationism in the biology curriculum, the Texas State Board of Education last week further illustrated its willingness to sacrifice accuracy for ideology by excluding Thomas Jefferson from a list of influential historical figures. Steve Mirsky reports

 

 

The Texas Board of Education has long promoted the teaching of creationism  in schools instead of actual science. It’s former chairman and current member Don McLeroy uttered this immortal line when confronted with numerous actual scientists urging that evolution be discussed accurately in the curriculum: “I disagree with these experts. Somebody’s gotta stand up to experts that are just…I think, I don’t know why they’re doing it, they’re wonderful people.”

 

This stuff is important nationwide. Because Texas buys so many textbooks. So textbook publishers tailor their products so that they’ll be marketable in Texas. And many places around the country get stuck with the same books.

 

Last week, the Texas Board revised its history standards. And it decreed that a list of people who were influential in fomenting revolutions would no longer include Thomas Jefferson. The board’s not crazy about Jefferson because of the whole separation of church and state thing. But if the guy who wrote the Declaration of Independence doesn’t meet your standards, maybe it’s really time to start listening to experts.

 

—Steve Mirsky

 

[The above text is an exact transcript of this podcast.]

 

Link

 

Here's more coverage from the NPR:

 

 

A far-right faction of the Texas State Board of Education succeeded Friday in injecting conservative ideals into social studies, history and economics lessons that will be taught to millions of students for the next decade.

 

Teachers in Texas will be required to cover the Judeo-Christian influences of the nation's Founding Fathers, but not highlight the philosophical rationale for the separation of church and state. Curriculum standards also will describe the U.S. government as a "constitutional republic," rather than "democratic," and students will be required to study the decline in value of the U.S. dollar, including the abandonment of the gold standard.

 

"We have been about conservatism versus liberalism," said Democrat Mavis Knight of Dallas, explaining her vote against the standards. "We have manipulated strands to insert what we want it to be in the document, regardless as to whether or not it's appropriate."

 

Following three days of impassioned and acrimonious debate, the board gave preliminary approval to the new standards with a 10-5 party line vote. A final vote is expected in May, after a public comment period that could produce additional amendments and arguments.

 

Decisions by the board — made up of lawyers, a dentist and a weekly newspaper publisher among others — can affect textbook content nationwide because Texas is one of publishers' biggest clients.

 

Ultraconservatives wielded their power over hundreds of subjects this week, introducing and rejecting amendments on everything from the civil rights movement to global politics. Hostilities flared and prompted a walkout Thursday by one of the board's most prominent Democrats, Mary Helen Berlanga of Corpus Christi, who accused her colleagues of "whitewashing" curriculum standards.

 

By late Thursday night, three other Democrats seemed to sense their futility and left, leaving Republicans to easily push through amendments heralding "American exceptionalism" and the U.S. free enterprise system, suggesting it thrives best absent excessive government intervention.

 

"Some board members themselves acknowledged this morning that the process for revising curriculum standards in Texas is seriously broken, with politics and personal agendas dominating just about every decision," said Kathy Miller, president of the Texas Freedom Network, which advocates for religious freedom.

 

Republican Terri Leo, a member of the powerful Christian conservative voting bloc, called the standards "world class" and "exceptional."

 

Board members argued about the classification of historic periods (still B.C. and A.D., rather than B.C.E. and C.E.); whether students should be required to explain the origins of the Israeli-Palestinian conflict and its impact on global politics (they will); and whether former Israeli Prime Minister Golda Meir should be required learning (she will).

 

In addition to learning the Bill of Rights, the board specified a reference to the Second Amendment right to bear arms in a section about citizenship in a U.S. government class.

 

Conservatives beat back multiple attempts to include hip-hop as an example of a significant cultural movement.

 

Numerous attempts to add the names or references to important Hispanics throughout history also were denied, inducing one amendment that would specify that Tejanos died at the Alamo alongside Davy Crockett and Jim Bowie. Another amendment deleted a requirement that sociology students "explain how institutional racism is evident in American society."

 

Democrats did score a victory by deleting a portion of an amendment by Republican Don McLeroy suggesting that the civil rights movement led to "unrealistic expectations for equal outcomes."

 

Fort Worth Republican Pat Hardy, a longtime teacher, voted for the new standards, but said she wished the board could work with a more cooperative spirit.

 

"What we've done is we've taken a document that by nature is too long to begin with and then we've lengthened it some more," Hardy said, shortly after the vote. "Those long lists of names that we've put in there ... it's just too long.

 

"I just think we failed to keep that in mind, it's hard for teachers to get through it all."

Link

Edited March 15, 2010 by Tetsuo2501

[The-King]

Oh, how I absolutely love living on America's ever so sound bible belt, where logic is just a word and religion drives almost every governmental aspect imaginable.

 

I fail to see how teaching proper science would hurt anyone. I suppose this, in the end, is really just a way for fundamental nutters to take away the youngin's free will and force religion down their throats without even giving them the opportunity to make a willful decision otherwise.

 

Sheep will always remain sheep unless they're given the opportunity to become something more.

[Tetsuo2501]

Here's more coverage from the NPR:

 

 

A far-right faction of the Texas State Board of Education succeeded Friday in injecting conservative ideals into social studies, history and economics lessons that will be taught to millions of students for the next decade.

 

Teachers in Texas will be required to cover the Judeo-Christian influences of the nation's Founding Fathers, but not highlight the philosophical rationale for the separation of church and state. Curriculum standards also will describe the U.S. government as a "constitutional republic," rather than "democratic," and students will be required to study the decline in value of the U.S. dollar, including the abandonment of the gold standard.

 

"We have been about conservatism versus liberalism," said Democrat Mavis Knight of Dallas, explaining her vote against the standards. "We have manipulated strands to insert what we want it to be in the document, regardless as to whether or not it's appropriate."

 

Following three days of impassioned and acrimonious debate, the board gave preliminary approval to the new standards with a 10-5 party line vote. A final vote is expected in May, after a public comment period that could produce additional amendments and arguments.

 

Decisions by the board — made up of lawyers, a dentist and a weekly newspaper publisher among others — can affect textbook content nationwide because Texas is one of publishers' biggest clients.

 

Ultraconservatives wielded their power over hundreds of subjects this week, introducing and rejecting amendments on everything from the civil rights movement to global politics. Hostilities flared and prompted a walkout Thursday by one of the board's most prominent Democrats, Mary Helen Berlanga of Corpus Christi, who accused her colleagues of "whitewashing" curriculum standards.

 

By late Thursday night, three other Democrats seemed to sense their futility and left, leaving Republicans to easily push through amendments heralding "American exceptionalism" and the U.S. free enterprise system, suggesting it thrives best absent excessive government intervention.

 

"Some board members themselves acknowledged this morning that the process for revising curriculum standards in Texas is seriously broken, with politics and personal agendas dominating just about every decision," said Kathy Miller, president of the Texas Freedom Network, which advocates for religious freedom.

 

Republican Terri Leo, a member of the powerful Christian conservative voting bloc, called the standards "world class" and "exceptional."

 

Board members argued about the classification of historic periods (still B.C. and A.D., rather than B.C.E. and C.E.); whether students should be required to explain the origins of the Israeli-Palestinian conflict and its impact on global politics (they will); and whether former Israeli Prime Minister Golda Meir should be required learning (she will).

 

In addition to learning the Bill of Rights, the board specified a reference to the Second Amendment right to bear arms in a section about citizenship in a U.S. government class.

 

Conservatives beat back multiple attempts to include hip-hop as an example of a significant cultural movement.

 

Numerous attempts to add the names or references to important Hispanics throughout history also were denied, inducing one amendment that would specify that Tejanos died at the Alamo alongside Davy Crockett and Jim Bowie. Another amendment deleted a requirement that sociology students "explain how institutional racism is evident in American society."

 

Democrats did score a victory by deleting a portion of an amendment by Republican Don McLeroy suggesting that the civil rights movement led to "unrealistic expectations for equal outcomes."

 

Fort Worth Republican Pat Hardy, a longtime teacher, voted for the new standards, but said she wished the board could work with a more cooperative spirit.

 

"What we've done is we've taken a document that by nature is too long to begin with and then we've lengthened it some more," Hardy said, shortly after the vote. "Those long lists of names that we've put in there ... it's just too long.

 

"I just think we failed to keep that in mind, it's hard for teachers to get through it all."

Link

[ghost of delete key]

Oh, my f*cking grapes.

 

Where do I begin flogging this one?

 

A) If you're seeking sources from NPR, you may as well be shopping for a tuxedo in a grocery store.

!) If you're doing anything at all with NPR, may God have mercy on your Soul.

"Forgive them Father, for they know not..."

 

1) Don't ride bandwagons. They're notoriously bumpy in the ride, and never go anywhere.

 

2) Don't ride bandwagons the "common media" tell you to ride. Try the Grey Goo for a bit, it's fun, and keeps you from watching too much "news'.

 

3) "So Texas goes, so goes America" huh? Right on, bro.

Seriously, the whole setup is a huge market-force example which nobody seems to want to recognize. Certainly not the Pink-in-the-Middle crybabies who call for more legislation on top of what already doesn't need legislation.

 

 

Really, this whole thread boils down to two points; first, the "issue" is all summed up in the single line

 

A far-right faction of the Texas State Board of Education succeeded Friday in injecting conservative ideals into social studies, history and economics lessons that will be taught to millions of students for the next decade.

Pisses the utter holy hell out of the far-left control freaks who see their personal demon flying away free from the cage...

And secondly, this is all a big gigantic "look-over-there-not-here" Oz trick.

The media tools of our current set of despots want you all to stop looking behind the curtain, dammit! "Pay no attention to the little Bill of Legislation behind the curtain! Behold the Fearsome and Terrible TEXAS..."

C'mon, nobody can tell?

 

Learn what a mouthpiece is and what one looks like before quoting one ad-nauseum.

 

Tetsuo, don't you have any opinion, knowledge, or input of your own? Crap, if I wanted a complete NPR report, I'd punish my radio by tuning in.

 

(This is also typical of hardcore NPR fans... "our pure and beautiful message isn't loud enough for the unwashed masses to hear, so lemme just bleat it into your ear s'more just to make sure you heard it. You need this.")

 

Just for the fun of nitpicking, here's the sum total of your input on this so-called 'issue':

 

 

<NPR copypasta>

<NPR copypasta>

Link

Here's more coverage from the NPR:

<Big NPR copypasta>

Link

Here's more coverage from the NPR:

<HUGE NPR copypasta>

Link

 

 

My God, that unexpurgated synopsis contains every last word you wrote on this topic, in bold.

NOT ONE WORD HAS BEEN OMITTED.

 

Shameful.

[HolyGrenadeFrenzy]

Texas has recently been the go getter for defending the US Constitution and Bill of Rights all around.

 

There are many people whom don't like that. This gives reason to countermeasure Texas. Discounting the States validity in this and making it look as if it is opposed to what it has been doing does two things.

 

A) Texas looks ridiculous in any US Constitution and Bill of Rights argument.

 

B) Texas is further discounted as silly and not one to know what it is doing and can be in general thought of as a Mort State that is full of Morts.

 

Yet....neither of these things are more than remotely true except for by design to give these appearances and to create further effect of the resulting discounts and desired national and international opinions to be affected such.

 

Don't listen to the mud slingers when they have a nasty goal is my opinion.

 

Of course, Texas has plenty of people in it and just like any population of large size there are people that will make decisions that not everyone will agree with and that includes making sense of it.

 

 

HolyGrenadeFrenzy waits for the ever present slam that comes with his daring to say anything about anything in a topic even remotely close to this sort of thing. After pause, he gives a final statement and tips his hat and leaves the room.

 

Good day, ladies and gentlemen.

[Tetsuo2501]

I didn't make this topic to interject my opinion on the matter, I only made it for those that live outside the state of Texas/United States to view the continue dwindling of public education. Nor I'm I a "hardcore NPR fan." the two references posted are the only two that I found at the time of posting.

 

I learned a while ago, as should of you have; posting your opinion on this forum gets you nothing but spam, and flames, such as what you posted towards me, but that's okay; it's your opinion and you're entitled to it, wither I agree with you or not.

 

Growing up, and having all my education from Texas public schools, and my thirteen year old brother currently going through the same. The curriculum surrounds the TAKS (formerly TAAS) tests in which were taught the very minimal of one set of studies, and bulked down for another (grades 6-12 social studies is all Texas history, or events leading)

 

And as for FEARSOME TEXAS as you put it, it's terrible here, living in the bible belt is very suffocating, and there's no way you can escape it unless you live over the Mason-Dixon line.

 

There, I interjected my opinion.

Edited March 16, 2010 by Tetsuo2501

[Mainland Marauder]

Well, supposedly this is in the "public debate" phase at this point so I hope what they hear is loud and clear.

 

I mean, seriously, there's Sunday school for a reason.

[HolyGrenadeFrenzy]

Oh, sure, the "stuff creationism down there throat until they puke method" isn't going to solve much other than give the public reason to divide and fight amonst themselves and break up things within the communities to further other causes.

 

Truth be told, evolution falls within Humanism, according to The United States Supreme Court, prior to the mid sixties and since.

 

 

More Recently

 

The trouble is that once there is contention between differing paradigms things do not always shift, meaning paradigm shift, toward one or the other and often both sides feel the pangs and effects of the contention.

 

The whole argument of whether anything from tightly to loosely called Atheism, Humanism, Christianity, Judaism, Islam/ Muslim, Hindi, Buddhist, or many others are a Paradigm Set or not is nonsensical. They are all paradigms and paradigm sets.

 

Whether they can "afford to be called" a religion seems like throwing salt at rotted meat in many ways once it comes to the "discount by way of it being called such and such" the problem only widens.

 

The real problem is this: Using the courts to decide how to control the education process of a country has used many methods of strategy that often reverse themselves in the strategy process. Humanism has done this often in contention of what "rights" it desires to bestow upon itself. It is not alone in this stratagem. This has proven effective for giving credibility or giving power yet not always both at once. This sort credibility being within the minds of the people and the power being the of the people by various means of course including the ear of the court.

 

Hence, Humanism and Evolution itself, therefore is not science but theory that utilizes science as a theoretical base for it's presenting itself rather well....by degree.

 

Does Creationism belong in Biology?

 

Only by the degree that Evolution does according to the courts.

 

http://candst.tripod.com/sec-hum3.htm VS http://vftonline.org/Patriarchy/definition...sm_religion.htm

 

More with Evolution Court Cases

 

----------------------

 

How do I feel about it?

 

I have my own issues with the entirety of this sort of thing. I personally find no vexation between my religious beliefs and science and the scientific process, what-so-ever.

 

Finding instead that people like to be right about things and use many methods about why someone else has to be wrong so that they can be right as the source of most difficulty with paradigms. When in fact many times, if not most times, the "need for someone else to be wrong" is more about the power struggle of the individual an their feelings of accomplishment and less to do with the necessity of division and winning over someone else.

 

Mostly, it seems to me that the whole thing is largely like a "Pink Pigs Fly" coupled with a "Have You Stopped Beating Your Wife?" argument. The reality of the argument is a false one regardless because we are really not arguing about what we are arguing about.

 

The real deal is about POWER and not the individual freedom and personal power over the world kind that I and most here prefer, either. Power over others is not what it seems and it is a far cry from what it seems to look like until you experience having significant power in Someone Else's Life.

 

Eventually you discover, if any real enlightenment occurs at all, that the only real power we have in the lives of others is by means of demonstrating to others how to have power in their own lives instead of behaving as if power is exchangeable or something that can be effectively taken from others without loosing more of your own power in the process.

 

Should Creationsim be taught side by side with Evolution?

 

I see no reason why not. They both are just about as sense making as any other crazy thing that humanity comes up with. The Deists and Theists will continue to argue about it until 3001, if anything Arthur C. Clarke has to say seems remotely likely or guessable.

 

Besides, I feel that humans are not as weak about the thinking process as so many believe and that they need to be led as much as they are so often seems a primary error.

 

Find reasons to agree sure but the need to have such a limitied education base and not a much larger one to me has felt like being beat to death with a rubber chicken for years before getting out of school.

 

Face it, the reason that the education system and the learning process is so down within the USA is not because the data is to difficult and if the memorization is to difficult for some then there are many ways to remedy that available that are purposefully not being used. No, the real reason that school scores are going down and that the people are becoming dumber every year is by design, whether on purpose or not is regardless. The design is the crisis.

 

Why?

 

Kids don't bail on school because of the information, not in the least. Kid's bail on school because of the boredom and tediousness of regurgitating the same data without enough new data to stimulate them until they nearly burst. They simply become so bored and angry at the situation that they like bail on the irony of the whole damn thing, here in the USA.

 

That is what happens when you intentionally start dumbing down an education system so others can't track things unless you "allow" them to gain the skills necessary to do so.

 

Is there someone specific whom we can ping as the start of such nonesense?

 

A mathematician whose expansion of this process from the mid thirties with the same name as another famous person who did much for the world yet is someone completely different comes to mind. Dewey Decimal and not the same Dewey Decimal as the one whom founded/created the Dewey Decimal System, either.......a different one with the same name. One hard mutherf*cker to find anything on except in the Declassified Materials on the Matters of State and Congressional Hearings and such. Derry Brownfield and a few other morning radio hosts have sited his activities in the education system over the years with disgust and dismay once they were declassified.

[ghost of delete key]

I didn't make this topic to interject my opinion on the matter,

Then why bother? You pretending to be a NPR reporter?

 

I only made it for those that live outside the state of Texas/United States to view the continue dwindling of public education.

Dude, everyone in the States with even a broken TV has heard all this crap all week long. Coast to coast.

I'm reasonably certain anyone in or out of the States already has all the info their local channels can beam them.

Let's be honest. The only reason to post is to further discuss the topic.

You think you can do AP's job better than they already do? You're one hell of a Futurama Paperboy then.

 

 

Nor I'm I a "hardcore NPR fan." the two references posted are the only two that I found at the time of posting.

because you either rushed to post (why? ), or... oh yes! You really ARE a huge fan.

Don't be ashamed of what you are - unless of course that's indefensible.

 

 

I learned a while ago, as should of you have; posting your opinion on this forum gets you nothing but spam, and flames, such as what you posted towards me...

IS THAT ENGLISH?! It's certainly bull.

Seriously, what you should have learned is that showing up at the table without a chip to ante up will get you run out of the game, forget being dealt a losing hand.

You're lucky, most people who pull what you did in the OP get a solid lock-and-warn.

What you tasted back there was the truth, and a pointed appeal for discourse. There was no personal attack; you were not flamed.

Please, when you learn the difference, play a hand.

 

... all my education from Texas public schools...

Then you have a front row seat to the spectacle that is Government-Run Education. Not very pretty, is it.

 

 

 

And as for FEARSOME TEXAS as you put it, it's terrible here, living in the bible belt is very suffocating, and there's no way you can escape it unless you live over the Mason-Dixon line.

I can tell you're pretty green, and have not actually been to said "Mason-Dixon Line".

Certainly not far out of Texas.

 

You also clearly do not have a clue just how good you have it there.

I won't pain you to do the actual homework and compare states and all, so I'll just leave you to imagine and wonder how it is that you live in one of the Nation's most prosperous States, one that actually has a budget surplus.

Nope.

You'd rather hear from those "comfortable" folk without moral compasses tell you about how badly Texas sucks compared to those Leftist Utopias like California, Oregon, et al.

You know, they're doing so well, they've turned to selling weed in a desperate bid to balance the toppled budget. The wonderful bastions of Gov-Run Everything, where nothing at all works. We should all be like that. With the Omnipotent, Benevolent Fed unquestionably at the reins...

 

Soooo much better than crappy old Texas, right?

I know this because Nancy Pelosi, King of San Francisco, told me so.

 

 

There, I interjected my opinion.

See, wasn't hard at all, was it. No blood, no burns, I didn't call you a dickface, asshole, schmuck, or finocchio or tell you to get f*cked by a syphilitic mongoose.

 

Royal Flush.

What you got?

 

 

The Deists and Theists will continue to argue about it until 3001, if anything Arthur C. Clarke has to say seems remotely likely or guessable.

My ALL-TIME favorite Clarke story is The Nine Billion Names of God

Childhood's End runs a close second for me.

Those mysterious Overlords remind me of the Federal Government.

[Jesus'En'Hitler420]

 

Growing up, and having all my education from Texas public schools, and my thirteen year old brother currently going through the same. The curriculum surrounds the TAKS (formerly TAAS) tests in which were taught the very minimal of one set of studies, and bulked down for another (grades 6-12 social studies is all Texas history, or events leading)

 

LoL. That's the way it is everywhere pal, every school now is centered around a single test. Didn't you know this sh*t was in No Child Left Behind? That's government run education for you. Why do you think people go to technical schools? Because public education doesn't teach sh*t, otherwise there wouldn't even be a market for the tech colleges.

 

It's just another widely ignored reason why the government should keep it's nose out of everything except for blowing other country's up.

[Tetsuo2501]

@GoDK: When you're done trying to be an internet tough guy, I'll start reading your posts.

Edited March 16, 2010 by Tetsuo2501

[RomanViking]

It's just another widely ignored reason why the government should keep it's nose out of everything except for blowing other country's up.

That just proves that the current government leaders suck.

 

The idea of government supplied anything isn't bad, it's just that they usually seem to do the bare minimum, and we don't have the power to force them to do better.

 

Greedy (or stupid) people are elected as senators or mayors, etc... That's where the first problem lies.

 

If you had a very open-minded, smart, and ungreedy person as your leader (either on a large scale, or local scale), government controlled stuff would work well; because the people in charge would want what's best for the citizens, and wouldn't be trying to make money for themselves.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[illspirit]

While some of the allegations in the NPR piece are quite odd, to be sure, the scare quotes here are rather amusing:

 

 

Curriculum standards also will describe the U.S. government as a "constitutional republic," rather than "democratic,"

 

Seeing as Article IV, Section 4 of the Constitution guarantees a Republican Form of Government and all, I don't see what's so controversial about it.

[ass reamer]

LoL. That's the way it is everywhere pal, every school now is centered around a single test. Didn't you know this sh*t was in No Child Left Behind? That's government run education for you. Why do you think people go to technical schools? Because public education doesn't teach sh*t, otherwise there wouldn't even be a market for the tech colleges.

 

It's just another widely ignored reason why the government should keep it's nose out of everything except for blowing other country's up.

You can't possibly be advocating for privatized education.

[ghost of delete key]

@GoDK: When you're done trying to be an internet tough guy, I'll start reading your posts.

Just remember to actually include some kind of input when you hit the post button.

That's what makes this thing work. Otherwise it's just another lame newspaper.

 

That way, we can talk about your thoughts, and not NPR's stellar lack of programming substance. But that's a whole other topic.

 

And speaking of topic, what about it?

I never really got what the actual topic is here concerning these regulation wars in Texas.

 

There's SO much in all of this thing that's wrong.

Really it can all be boiled down to massive doses of "missing the big picture", with a big splash of "more control! less free thought!".

 

So where do we begin?

[Otter]

I have to agree with this sentiment:

 

 

"What we've done is we've taken a document that by nature is too long to begin with and then we've lengthened it some more," Hardy said, shortly after the vote. "Those long lists of names that we've put in there ... it's just too long.

 

"I just think we failed to keep that in mind, it's hard for teachers to get through it all."

 

I do find it odd that it is, for some reason, the role of a government body to decide the curriculum. There has got to be a better way.

[HolyGrenadeFrenzy]

 

While some of the allegations in the NPR piece are quite odd, to be sure, the scare quotes here are rather amusing:

 

 

Curriculum standards also will describe the U.S. government as a "constitutional republic," rather than "democratic,"

 

Seeing as Article IV, Section 4 of the Constitution guarantees a Republican Form of Government and all, I don't see what's so controversial about it.

As you suggest, it should be obvious that the USA is a constitutional republic because of the statement of such in the document yet the confusion of the issue through the educational system over the span of many decades has made it something to get ON IT about.

 

The fact that the majority of the people in the USA currently believe that this is a representative democracy instead of a constitutional republic is reflective of this.

 

Historically, democracies have torn down and destroyed republics and this is also why being a constitutional republic is so vital for drawing the line in the sand.

 

Abroad in the USA the education system has been changing the appropriate terms for sometime now. Over fifty years of misuse and abuse of terminology has led some areas to get right down to it.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I hope that assisted you or someone at least. @illspirit> Not that I believe that you needed any of this...because you already know it.

 

The real trouble is that the education system is being manipulated from high places to allow for a transformation from a Constitutional Republic to something else which usually eventually results in an Oligarchy and the tryanny that results from such governance.

 

I fully agree that the form of government should already be fully understood and adamant in and of itself. Yet....this is not the current climate of the populations awareness nor the education process.

 

Huge edit: sorry about that.

[GUCCI MANE LAFLARE]

see these down south ngas always be fixing to enfluencing the kids mind in some spicable ways and sh*t, and BURR, but these kids dont even go school anyway so it all works out in the end. s these charlie chaplin hoecake mo fkers u gotta watch. no horse sense mof*ckers

[Oddsock]

see these down south ngas always be fixing to enfluencing the kids mind in some spicable ways and sh*t, and BURR, but these kids dont even go school anyway so it all works out in the end. s these charlie chaplin hoecake mo fkers u gotta watch. no horse sense mof*ckers

Do you live in Texas perchance?

 

HGF, careful with some of those links. After looking up Red Beckman, I found that's he a total kook related to a white supremacist, anti-Semite movement in the Midwest. I wouldn't really take his word on anything.

[ghost of delete key]

HGF, careful with some of those links. After looking up Red Beckman, I found that's he a total kook related to a white supremacist, anti-Semite movement in the Midwest. I wouldn't really take his word on anything.

But you'd certainly take the word of your source, which you didn't mention.

 

That wouldn't happen to be the Nizkor Project, would it?

 

First, understand Red Beckman and who is opponents are.

With enemies like Obama and the IRS, you know there will be vitriol added to any assessment.

Coupled with the fact that while the Nizcor Project may look like a noble Holocaust awareness foundation, it is more adequately described as a right-wing-persecution engine.

Besides, they were implicated in taking kickbacks from B'nai B'rith, soooo....

 

At least Nizkor has the balls to post dissent against themselves in their own site:

http://www.nizkor.org/hweb/people/c/coons-...t-rebuttal.html

 

Check your sources, and check your source's sources, and follow the lines where they meet behind someone's sphere of influence.

 

Then you can see who speaks his own mind, and who drives the tank over him.

 

Are you afraid to listen to Red Beckman? Your world might implode.

 

Or you might get some raw facts and draw your own conclusions.

 

 

[HolyGrenadeFrenzy]

@OdDsOcK>Hey, one of of three isn't bad.

 

The only reason I use the links at all is that it is the only thing that I can offer the "passively educated" around here that seems to be in any way effective.

 

I could drag you through the higher learning and finer points of political science yet I find it doubtful that more than a few would pay attention enough to grasp anything. I mean, so few around here have even read The Prince or Sun Tzu's, Art of War or Inquirey Into the Nature and Causes of the Wealth of Nations by Adam Smith or Civil Disobedience.

 

So why bother?

 

Instead, stick to the bare essentials and miss the chance to differ the process of Reason and go for the short catch instead of the long haul while people stare at their TVs and believe the crap they are fed by the mass media and laugh it up while they are lied to, while behaving as if they get it and no one else does.

 

-----------------

 

I mean, for crying out loud, Joseph Campbell may or may not have been a antisemitic woman hater, according to a professor I knew at ISU, yet that doesn't mean that everything he said was off base. The Power of Myth has much accreditation regardless of the man's flaws.

 

Hell, you can find mud and make false claims about nearly anyone in history if you look for it. People and their self-righteous opinions are found all around and using things to shoot down a point without due cause in its accuracy.

 

For goodness sake, we have politicians that speak out of there mouths in opposing directions daily and if you point out the fact they are doing this then the masses behave just like well trained dogs and call you a loon.

 

-------------------

 

Does anyone in politics shake hands with people they ought not to?

 

Mostly.

 

Does that mean everyone does?

 

Nope.

 

Does that put the underdogs and minority in politics at an extreme disadvantage for being honest and careful whom they associate with?

 

Yep.

 

"Should we just accept this as the way of the world and give up?",

 

NO!

Edited March 16, 2010 by HolyGrenadeFrenzy

[Creed Bratton]

I fail to see how teaching proper science would hurt anyone.

If you teach someone the truth you teach them to think. And when they think they realize what the government and corporations are doing. They realize and they don't just sit quiet, eventually they rebel. But if you teach them to be obedient then you can feed them any kind of sh*t you want. You teach them about Jesus being the savior and god bless America and no place else, and how Islam is evil and it's OK to invade Eastern countries because that's "what Jesus would do."

[HolyGrenadeFrenzy]

^^Welll said! Yet, I don't think that religious basis is where it lands in the end.

 

Yet your use of sarcasm is pretty tight in reference to Jesus and that doesn't always transfer meaning so well. To quote another porfessor i know,"Sarcasm is the condom of the cynic."

This further translates into the very thing you are speaking about, as the "condom" prevents the impregnation, incubation and arrival of any sort of fruit most of the time.

The fruit which is reason and ideas are part of the point of this.

 

Religion is just a tool to the real cause of this sort of problem.

 

When you let men have too big of an influence in your religion (or government) unopposed then look out.

 

That is why the church was kept out of government in the first place. It is also another reason for the rest of the First Amendment as well. Freedom of Speach, Press and Religion is not only about personal freedom, although it is that as well. The First Amendment is about the right to disagree with someone else without being put at risk of recourse for revealing what and how you disagree, be it spoken openly, in text or song or even interpretation and religious practices. This is the very thing that is endangered today.

 

 

This is of utmost importance when it comes to politics and yet that is the arena which has been working very hard to limit these rights.

 

 

The founders knew that men corrupt and that is especially true given time to do so and the means to achieve lofty goals. Going after the controversial issues was considered a noble act and patriotic and to shirk controversy as that of abomination.

 

But then again.....Mice and Men.

Edited March 16, 2010 by HolyGrenadeFrenzy

[JayC]

What I don't understand is why we can't have any US related topics without a load of Democratic v Republican bullsh*t in it.

 

The real topic here isn't laugh at republican Texas. It doesn't matter who you support you should be concerned that politicians are deciding what should be taught. It would be just as bad if it was all left wing propaganda going through.

 

Surely education should be based on unbiased information so that students can make up their own minds?

[Creed Bratton]

Religion is just a tool to the real cause of this sort of problem.

Yes, of course, I agree. I used Jesus in my post so much because of all those Americans that for some reason think that Jesus loves America and they talk about him like he was born there. Some might actually think he was...But lets not turn this into another religion topic.

[meta187]

It's a weird touchy topic because it sort of touches on religion, politics and education all rolled up into one awkward eggroll of potential debate.

 

I'm a Texan and Tets right. The mentality is generally sh*t out here. The under current of racism on all sides in a modern city like Houston where I was born and spent the last 3 years is quietly undeniable by comparison when you go to any other major city in the US. Anywhere outside the city that isn't my hippy lovin utopia of Austin, forget about it.

 

I actually am an avid NPR listener which proves I'm certifiably old. But aside from that, It's not Fox "News" but it's certainly isn't MSNBC either. I'm a moderate and a bit of a progressive on politics in general and as far as mainstream media sources go NPR is certainly one of the most balanced and credible ones out there. People on both sides of the spectrum cite it for reference and a moderate opinion. Educated, cultural diverse opinion pieces on things outside of politics are certainly a breath of "Fresh Air" as well. WKUT 90.5 out of Austin, no shame in my game.

 

Extreme Fringe sources, on the left or the right, while interesting and eye opening are most likely not going to make any consistant impact in the mainstream media due to our dark overlord, puppet masters incessant cock blocking or whatever, so I'm not going to waste my time getting bent out of shape about it. You just have to listen to the sources giving you information that is in step with your personal values and then start making some decisions for yourself from there on what is and isn't agenda based rhetoric and how you perceive the world.

 

On the actual topic at hand, theology aside, I can see Creationism being taught as an alternate theory to Evolution, like the Big Bang Theory but it should never take front and center.

Edited March 17, 2010 by meta187

[unopescio]

Nice to see mad tonys avoiding commenting in this thread.

[thatsoccerguy]

I am currently a student in a Texas public high school. I think I might be missing the big picture here, but I don't see how this is really going to affect students in public schools here that much. I went to a Catholic school before I transferred into the public school system, and it's the same scenario in both places. The parents who encourage their kids in their religious lives every day and send them to things like church camp usually end up accepting the whole thing and most just turn into dicks (not related to Christians, just the self-righteous bible thumpers who like to remind others why they're going to hell).

 

However, the kids that have all their beliefs rammed down their throats by parents or other authority end up in one of two ways; they hate it or they love it. The same goes for kids whose parents don't really give a sh*t either way, they'll conform to one side or the other because they don't know which group they belong in.

 

You might say allowing creationism into schools tips an unfair balance to the Christian side, but in Texas it doesn't really matter. At least 95% of kids in public schools (or my high school, which has a decently-sized enrollment of about 1,300) would openly consider themselves Christian. Most of the people I know are tools, but I will give them enough credit to say that learning about how creationism affecting the founding fathers won't result in them grabbing their torches and pitchforks to destroy godless heathens. The few kids who choose to believe differently probably won't be swayed.

 

As for its impact on kids who are at elementary level, their beliefs have already been instilled by parenting long before they've ever set foot in a classroom. Yes, their extremely impressionable and will probably take to the idea of it at first, but it probably won't stick with them. The kids will be who they were going to be. I had a 4th grade teacher at a public school who was also a youth minister, and I probably heard more about the mysteries of God's love in her class than I did on an average day in Catholic school. She was a great teacher, but her views hardly effected mine in the end.

 

As far as the principle of the decision, yeah it's wrong (see 1st Amendment, secular government), but I honestly don't think sh*t will change that much. The long and short of it is that there are a few people with pens who have decided people should see things the way they do and are scared to have others think differently, hiding behind the pretenses that it's fair to acknowledge one religion because of the role it played in our nation's founding.

 

But what do I know, I'm just a 17 who's better off playing with his dick in his hands rather than actually thinking, right?

 

But as the for Jefferson's removal from that list, I send a big you to my state government. Quite possibly the best president we've ever had as a nation, and my personal favorite.

[860]

On the actual topic at hand, theology aside, I can see Creationism being taught as an alternate theory to Evolution

Which one?

 

I do agree that the creation stories should be taught, but in a theology class where the students learn about all (major) religions equally.

[Jesus'En'Hitler420]

 

LoL. That's the way it is everywhere pal, every school now is centered around a single test. Didn't you know this sh*t was in No Child Left Behind? That's government run education for you. Why do you think people go to technical schools? Because public education doesn't teach sh*t, otherwise there wouldn't even be a market for the tech colleges.

 

It's just another widely ignored reason why the government should keep it's nose out of everything except for blowing other country's up.

You can't possibly be advocating for privatized education.

The teachers would get paid better aswell.

 

 

If you had a very open-minded, smart, and ungreedy person as your leader (either on a large scale, or local scale), government controlled stuff would work well; because the people in charge would want what's best for the citizens, and wouldn't be trying to make money for themselves.

 

Ok, I'll just sit on hands and knees and pray for this government that is absent of all human greed and envy and jealousy so that way it can control my life. Then when they have provided everything for me, I'll ask for more and more, just like everyone else would.

Edited March 17, 2010 by Jesus'En'Hitler420