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Saggy

Illegal Immigration

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E.A.B.
...they should....should....accept lower pay

Hmmm, check your facts? We can't just accept lower pay, most illegals get below minimum wage. A legal citizen, with a job that pulls taxes, cannot accept lower than minimum wages due to state/federal laws and the fact it shows your hourly wages and money earned for X amount of hours. So, anyone would see this employer breaking the law by underpaying a worker. That's why there is a minimum wage, that is the lowest you can pay somebody without breaking the law.

 

They sidestep this all together by paying an illegal to do it that has no tax/wages history.

I...know....that there's a minimum wage law... dontgetit.gif

 

Let me re-iterate, then. 'Abolish the minimum wage law'

 

Yes, get rid of it. But you brought up taxes and the like. In which case, the problem is further complicated. All I'm saying is that the problem is companies wanting cheaper labor without all the unionizing and benefits. It's why companies outsource to other countries and hire illegals. If Americans TRULY want to compete for these jobs in a globalized world, they have no other choice other than to have lower wages for those jobs. IF they simply kick out illegals and somehow outlaw outsourcing, that only tackles the symptoms and not the illness.

 

Companies will still be struggling.

 

Your job in the local factory should be fine from globalization if it isn't owned by a multinational corporation, though. But that still leaves a factory that may be struggling and in need of cheaper labor. The issue is much larger than simply someone getting cheaper labor.

 

 

And american? lol

anyway, I grew up poor and wasn't materialistic at all... I couldn't be.

Now i'm working through college for a better life.

All Americans aren't materialistic, Try thinking before you post.

 

Don't tell me you're one of those people that mock others for typos sarcasm.gif . LOL beginning a sentence without a capital.

 

And you're right. Not all Americans are materialistic, of course they aren't. I was making a generalization. Put it this way, then; Mexicans aren't the ones struggling with credit card debt and losing their homes.

 

That better? Don't give me that 'Oh, Banks PREYED on the average American' cause it doesn't take a Genius to figure out that you can't possibly afford a house that big with a McDonalds salary. Not all Americans are materialistic, but American culture as a whole sure as f*ck is, and don't deny it.

 

Most Mexican immigrants are poor, so they aren't materialistic (again, a generalization, but *mostly* correct since they come from more traditional, rural areas). I'm American, I'm not materialistic either, but a lot of poor people around me sure as hell are hungry for products. It's the American system of capitalism.

 

 

Now people say, we were founded on Immigrants. Yes, we were. But there were few laws and borders back then, it was just a free for all where you could claim land and hell, do anything.

 

'Hmmm, check your facts?'

 

When we were still known as the 13 colonies, the British government acquired the Ohio River Valley from France. The Proclamation of 1763 made it illegal to settle lands west of the Appalachian mountains, in order to keep relations with the Natives stable (Pontiacs War prompted them to issue such a proclamation). Many Americans simply ignored this and settled the lands anyway. LOLILLEGAL TRESPASSING.

 

It's hardly the whitewashed History you're trying to make it.

 

 

But there were few laws....In America today we have laws

 

Then there's also states completely ignoring (the president as well) actions the Supreme Court clearly deemed unconstitutional in relation to land. But who cares about laws and the constitution if it doesn't benefits us?

 

I agree that illegal immigrants are just that, ILLEGAL.

 

But god damn it I hate it when people bring up Native Americans and say 'OH WELL THERE WERE NO LAWS ANYWAY WE SIMPLY WON THE FITE' as if its factual. If you want to debate law, Americans themselves broke their own laws, treaties, coerced Natives into signing unfair documents and used the law whenever it was convenient to them.

 

 

Why is it our problem?

 

The Mexican drug cartel is knocking on your door. They say they only exist because of Americas insatiable hunger for drugs.

 

Oops! There goes your 'I don't care not my fault' argument!

 

I completely agree with your foodstamps argument, though.

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Kora

Migration should be allowed to flow, it'll still flow regardless of all these restrictions, unless you cage everyone up. There's the complaint that the infrastructure couldn't sustain the growing population, but with white flight already becoming commonplace, and Europeans flocking to enjoy better weather in poorer areas and sharing the wealth, I don't see how it'd be an issue. Mass migration's been around for a millennia, anyway. Travelling and migration should be encouraged, not discouraged, the Trans-Tasman Travel Arrangement benefits both Australia's and New Zealand's economy, for instance. The exact same has happened with the European Union, allowing ease for flow. Imagine if the United States and Mexico proposed something similar? Benefit from eachother's strongpoints?

 

I'm an immigrant myself, and it's unfair to pay $1000 for a bloody visa sad.gif . I'm working and paying tax, benefitting the country I'm living in. If it's money they want, what's their problem?

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Lt. Dan

The real problem with illegal immigration isn't that they're taking jobs, it's that a small but important fraction of illegal immigrants are a part of the violent Mexican drug trade. Laws pertinent to this issue shouldn't be anti-immigration or even anti-immigrant, but anti-Cartel.

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bobgtafan

I've been doing reseach and I don't see the need for more border controls, in fact once we give the 12 million illegals ammnesty we should increase immigration inflows from Central and Latin America; and also make the process easier. As far as the drug cartels go more efforts should be put forth to halt the flow of weapons to Mexico, Marijuana should be leaglizaed and the United States should strenghten it's military operations with the Mexican government. The drug legalization would reduce cartel's profits by 50 percent and the United States should push for more anti-corruption efforts.

 

As far as the Mexican poor go the U.S should push the Mexican government to increase it's welfare and basic infrastrurce programs and even subsidisze the Mexican military or Mexican goods to the United States. Or even opposed to my above support for more immigrants the U.S could just let Canadan and Mexican workers move freely within each other's nations. That would create the fully free movement of captail, resources, labor and ideas that markets need.

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massrcor

 

Let me re-iterate, then. 'Abolish the minimum wage law'

 

might as well legalize child labor while we're at it. sarcasm.gif

 

 

I've been doing reseach and I don't see the need for more border controls, in fact once we give the 12 million illegals ammnesty we should increase immigration inflows from Central and Latin America

 

the main reason the obama administration is pushing for amnesty is the fact that mexicans predominantly vote left (democrat) in elections.

 

So it would be like making 10- 12 million votes for themselves. pretty crafty if you ask me, but since i'm a right leaning independent... I hate it.

 

 

As far as the drug cartels go more efforts should be put forth to halt the flow of weapons to Mexico, Marijuana should be leaglizaed and the United States should strenghten it's military operations with the Mexican government. The drug legalization would reduce cartel's profits by 50 percent and the United States should push for more anti-corruption efforts

 

Marijuana is not the problem, it's the crank and cocain... and crack that's the real problem.

In america there are laws about how much ephedrine(main crank ingredient) that you can buy.

In mexico, there are no laws on this... So I could go and buy 10 barrells of ephedrine perfectly legal.

Anyway, this makes it incredibly easy to manufacture, thus leading to smuggling it via cartel.

 

The fact mexico says " if america didn't have a demand for the drugs, we wouldn't be in this case"

 

angry.gif hell no! It's a fact that humans like stimulation, so if you have a drug readily available... someone will use it. So, if the drugs aren't there in the 1st place, then we obviously can't use it.

 

mexico is in the wrong for bringing the diabolical stuff here.

 

 

in fact once we give the 12 million illegals ammnesty

1st of all, that will never pass. politicians for it are just placating their constituents and playing like they're "for amnesty" when in actuality, they don't want these people just running about, legally.

 

Not to mention it would be like rewarding a CRIMINAL for breaking the law. which is obviously, wrong!

 

STAY IN YOUR OWN DAMN COUNTRY!

IF YOU CAN'T SUPPORT YOUR FAMILY IT'S NOT AMERICA'S PROBLEM!

YOU SHOULD THINK BEFORE YOU INSERT YOUR PENIS INTO THAT WOMAN!

Edited by massrcor

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Rown

Funny story. I was driving down the road the other night. It was one of those foggy nights where the road vanishes a few inches in front of you.

 

The whole time I'm like "sh*t I hope i don't hit anything". All of a sudden there's a thud. I barely even noticed it. Thought it was a pothole. Get home and take a look and wouldn't you know it? Empathy was stuck to my grill. That's right folks. I killed empathy and that's why you will find it nowhere.

 

 

In all seriousness though the flaws are systemic and semantic. We believe the system should do something, but our definition of something varies. Thus the system tries to do both and fails everyone. I mean nobody likes change but I have to believe there is a "system" better than this.

 

Personally I think we should relax our federal structure a tad, restructure our economy, and export happiness and self esteem.

 

We'd be fine then.

 

Rown rampage_ani.gif

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E.A.B.
Let me re-iterate, then. 'Abolish the minimum wage law'

 

might as well legalize child labor while we're at it. sarcasm.gif

That's completely different. Children went to work only because their parents needed the wages because they were paid so little.

 

Even countries like China have child labor laws, because children are busy in SCHOOLS.

 

There's a difference between lower pay and child labor. I'll re-iterate; the only reason that American corporations send jobs overseas is because its CHEAPER.

 

Either compete and lower your own wage or accept higher priced goods (which would mean paying the workers more and pricing things up accordingly).

 

I know people can't live the 'American Dream' with such low wages, but if you want it you have to fight for it. The American Dream is harder to live in with only a High School Degree, brah. It's DEAD.

 

Either way, isn't that the basis for the free market system? 'Only the strong and competetive survive'? Well, American workers are losing, overall in manufacturing. Time to pick up a new profession. I feel bad for victims of globalization, but they need to train their children in higher fields. I really do think illegals are the only ones keeping some American companies afloat...so, yeah.

 

 

Not to mention it would be like rewarding a CRIMINAL for breaking the law. which is obviously, wrong!

 

Illegal immigration is illegal, but what always irks me is how people say 'CRIMINAL' and put it up there with murderers and thugs. Criminal acts aren't always morally objectionable acts, so don't even try. If I spray graffiti on something, I am not harming anybody and expressing myself artistically, yet its CRIMINAL. But is it morally objectionable?

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Tom Toole

 

Marijuana is not the problem, it's the crank and cocain... and crack that's the real problem.

In america there are laws about how much ephedrine(main crank ingredient) that you can buy.

In mexico, there are no laws on this... So I could go and buy 10 barrells of ephedrine perfectly legal.

Anyway, this makes it incredibly easy to manufacture, thus leading to smuggling it via cartel.

 

The fact mexico says " if america didn't have a demand for the drugs, we wouldn't be in this case"

 

angry.gif  hell no! It's a fact that humans like stimulation, so if you have a drug readily available... someone will use it. So, if the drugs aren't there in the 1st place, then we obviously can't use it.

 

mexico is in the wrong for bringing the diabolical stuff here.

 

Quick scenario, you are a drug dealer. The demand and price of cocaine rises dramatically when you get into the United States, the country with the largest amount of drug users in the world. With this in mind, do you sell in Chihuhua, Mexico, or in Los Angeles, California?

 

Your argument is basically silly and can be turned on its head, the drugs would not be there if there was not a demand for them, an enormous, voracious demand.

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Jesus'En'Hitler420

Who thinks none of this would really matter much if the Sixteenth Amendment did not exist?

 

Or much of the bullsh*t issues we have today...

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Rown

So far as supply and demand go I'm in agreement with Tom... supply side is much easier to take care of BEFORE demand sky rockets.

 

After it's established people know what they want and will try to get a hold of it one way or another.

 

And to JnH's point the 14th and 16th amendments need to be amended lol. I don't think anyone should have birthright federal citizenship, it should be something that people aspire to. Give them state citizenship sure, but make the upper level something to be wanted. Basic human rights are just that. Whether or not you are a citizen shouldn't interfere there.

 

And the 16th... nobody likes income tax... so it's time for something new, or something old depending on what wins. Either way the status quo has got to go.

 

Rown rampage_ani.gif

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bobgtafan
So far as supply and demand go I'm in agreement with Tom... supply side is much easier to take care of BEFORE demand sky rockets.

 

After it's established people know what they want and will try to get a hold of it one way or another.

 

And to JnH's point the 14th and 16th amendments need to be amended lol. I don't think anyone should have birthright federal citizenship, it should be something that people aspire to. Give them state citizenship sure, but make the upper level something to be wanted. Basic human rights are just that. Whether or not you are a citizen shouldn't interfere there.

 

And the 16th... nobody likes income tax... so it's time for something new, or something old depending on what wins. Either way the status quo has got to go.

 

Rown rampage_ani.gif

Why exactly do we need to get rid of the 14th Amendment or play around with citizenship requirements? Besides no congress will give the 2/3 for such a stupid plan because most of them wouldn't even be considered legal too.

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Rown

One. I didn't say "get rid of the 14th amendment". I said amend it.

 

I just think there isn't anything particularly special about just being born in the U.S. Yay fluke of geography. But we have people come from other countries and take a test that a large number of citizens couldn't pass... just doesn't seem right.

 

Give us the test to or a service bypass (not just military). Give people some appreciation for the country instead of just saying "good job being lucky".

 

It shouldn't have it be retroactive. So a current Congress would have fewer squabbles. It'd have to be pitched right that's for sure.

 

It'd be primarily to close the door on future moments of shuttlebus democracy whereby people are shuttled from their homes to a polling station to vote the way of the driver.

 

 

All persons born or naturalized in the United States, and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States and of the State wherein they reside.

 

Changed to

 

 

All persons born AND naturalized in the United States, and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States and of the State wherein they reside.

 

Rown rampage_ani.gif

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bobgtafan
One. I didn't say "get rid of the 14th amendment". I said amend it.

 

I just think there isn't anything particularly special about just being born in the U.S. Yay fluke of geography. But we have people come from other countries and take a test that a large number of citizens couldn't pass... just doesn't seem right.

 

Give us the test to or a service bypass (not just military). Give people some appreciation for the country instead of just saying "good job being lucky".

 

It shouldn't have it be retroactive. So a current Congress would have fewer squabbles. It'd have to be pitched right that's for sure.

 

It'd be primarily to close the door on future moments of shuttlebus democracy whereby people are shuttled from their homes to a polling station to vote the way of the driver.

 

 

All persons born or naturalized in the United States, and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States and of the State wherein they reside.

 

Changed to

 

 

All persons born AND naturalized in the United States, and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States and of the State wherein they reside.

 

Rown rampage_ani.gif

You're still getting rid of the 14th in it's current form. And who would be the person to decide what is and isn't American? I'm pretty sure that's different for everyone. All you're going to do is create two classes of citizens and that's wrong.

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Rown

 

The Congress shall have Power...

 

...To establish an uniform Rule of Naturalization

 

There ya have it.

 

I am interested in the two classes though. Where do you see them coming from?

 

I brought this up in another topic too... starting here.

 

 

 

On Topic: We do need to look at the broader reasons for why people are coming here in droves from Latin America. The 40 some minute tl;dw video has some interesting points about U.S. trade laws and foreign policy having a hand in driving people north. I mean Mexico has it's own illegal immigration problem from Central America.

 

In the long run if we want to fix the influx of immigrants we're either going to have to help them with problems that might be owe to our influence OR annex them... and rebuild them then.

 

Supply and Demand of Happiness. Either they come here to get it, or they find a way to get it there.

 

The main complaint people seem to hit is one of cost. Cost of development, cost of training. The notion that human life can be undercut by economics seems a poor idea to carry through to the 21st century. There are more important things on Earth and in Heaven then the paper in one's pocket. It may sound quaint but I hold that to be true. If our present system of money can't do the things we need to get done, then we need a system that can.

 

Rown rampage_ani.gif

Edited by Rown

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patsfan4life

Im against illegal immigration. Not because they take our jobs, but because they get government welfare money but don't pay any taxes. That's the problem. The reason why some people illegally immigrate is because legal immigration is too hard. You literally have to wait five years to get a green card. Trust me, I immigrated from Moscow. They gotta make the legal process easier. But i say cut off all benefits to illegal immigrants, and deploy national guard at the border. Allow voluntary deportation, so that they get a chance to return later. If not, they should be deported permanently.

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gtamann123

I have never understood why people get so worked up over the Arizona law. If you're here illegally then you have no rights to privacy and the police have every right to ask for your ID. If you are legal and the police ask you to show your ID to prove that you are a legal resident then just simply show him and it shouldn't be much of a problem.

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