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Saggy

Illegal Immigration

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Saggy

Does the area you live in have a lot of problems with illegal immigration? I don't think there's any place in the United States that doesn't make an issue of it, but in my area I think most of the people that stand behind anti illegal immigration rallies only do so out of some kind of veiled racist agenda.

 

There's a lot of people around here though that care about the actual illegal immigration issues and the way it effects them, and for the most part when it comes to people losing their jobs because of it, the people I hear where I live complaining about that are mostly local Hispanics that have lived here for twenty-some years that lose their job to an illegal immigrant, or because his employer was employing too many of them and is thus out of business.

 

There's even a racist tangent to that, because he thinks that only the "pure" Mexicans that have been working the jobs for years should get to keep them instead of the immigrants from Southern American countries, or of mixed descent. It's almost like a Mexican KKK in that they just don't like anyone not Mexican.

 

So like, is there anyone that's truly rallying for immigration reform that isn't just on some racist notion?

 

 

I mean, I really don't even accept the whole, "They're coming in, and taking our jobs," notions because that's just a scapegoat for a larger problem. It could have been any thing that would lead a company to lay you off, and if it's a worker that will work for less money, I don't really see what their nationality or heritage has to do with it. If tomorrow Caucasian suburbanite kids all round America decided, "Hey, f*ck minimum wage, let's go work in alfalfa fields for $2 an hour," I'm pretty sure employers would start hiring Caucasian suburbanite kids more than their adult counterparts who insist on some kind of "minimum wage". And then what?

 

Well, honestly we've already put up child labor law legislation that makes that point null, but what I'm getting at is if it's not one thing, it's another...

 

 

So does anyone have some real, legitimate reason for stricter immigration laws? Maybe focusing on Homeland Security, considering we've got this massive border with Canada basically wide open.

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darthYENIK

Why is the employment problem illegitimate, just because you perceive it to be a racial matter? There is a real problem there, problems with employers breaking the law. No matter how noble their reason, be it that they want to give immigrants jobs, or they just want to keep their heads above water, it's illegal. And now more than ever with unemployment rates skyrocketing, it's a legitimate issue.

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Saggy
Why is the employment problem illegitimate, just because you perceive it to be a racial matter? There is a real problem there, problems with employers breaking the law. No matter how noble their reason, be it that they want to give immigrants jobs, or they just want to keep their heads above water, it's illegal. And now more than ever with unemployment rates skyrocketing, it's a legitimate issue.

Hold on there, I just used the wrong wording.

 

What I'm trying to say is that I'm sick and tired of people trying to justify having no immigration, or harsher immigration laws, only because they lost their job in what they perceive to be a matter related to immigration, and then proceed to make it a racial issue. I mean, if Joe Schmoe the BestBuy salesman loses his job to Juan Lopez, it's all the sudden because Mr. Lopez is an immigrant and not because Joe Schmoe didn't make his sales quota. Then more often or not, it gets even worse, because sooner or later some bunch of racists try to rally around Joe Schmoe losing his job and start preaching about immigration laws, while the whole time they're really saying things like, "They're taking jobs from the white people." I'm projecting things from my local area too much on to it perhaps, but the wording was just wrong. I'm sure you're not saying that people using the issue of immigration to protect "white" jobs is valid any more than I'm saying employment issues regarding immigration are invalid.

 

Past that, I agree that it's definitely a legitimate issue when it comes to employment in general, but what I meant to say was that I wanted to avoid it entirely so that it doesn't digress into illegitimate issues like race and what not like the way I detailed above. I mean, I think the reasons for better immigration laws when its related to employment are pretty obvious already anyway.

 

 

Anyway, I guess I'll just get the ball rolling down the lines of discussion I want to go along...

 

I know some people who think we shouldn't allow people in on work visa while the issue of illegal immigrants and border control is so volatile, because a legitimate work visa would be perfect cover for someone that wanted to carry out an attack in the U.S. Their thinking is basically along the lines of... Why are we spending so much on border control and justifying it with security reasons, when the people that actually have the resources to conduct such attacks are probably going to enter the country on a foreign work visa or something unrelated to the border.

 

Including them, I know some people who think we shouldn't be allowing immigrants at all right now in America, that as a country we've "reached" capacity, citing the number of homeless and poverty-stricken as examples.

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Attorney General

 

So does anyone have some real, legitimate reason for stricter immigration laws?  Maybe focusing on Homeland Security, considering we've got this massive border with Canada basically wide open.

I read a report about a year ago that said something along the lines of how it was becoming more prevalent amongst Mexican immigrants to fly to Canada where they'd jump our northern border as apposed to crossing in Texas or Arizona.

 

In essence, money spent on this is money wasted. No matter what deterrents we throw at them, poor people from all over will always find a way into this country to earn a decent living. I sure don't blame them.

 

I get the whole illegality aspect, and I choose to ignore it...much like the people who say that illegals are a detriment to our economy, but fail to recognize the benefit they serve as well. Hell, this country was built on the blood and sweat of immigrants. Latinos are the new Eastern Europeans just like the Tex-Mex border is the new Ellis Island. These people are willing and able to perform any number of tasks for money that our peers won't or don't want to.

 

Besides, I'm a firm believer that the job should go to the guy who does it best...regardless of race, gender, sexual preferance or any other tag you want to slap on someone. Comes down to darwinism really.

 

 

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Johnny-Tightlips

For the Above all of it, I do know what you mean, some people in London support BNP, but it's morem out of...lets say frustration, mabey because thety lost their jobs, they then blame the immigrants, something like that, well it really isn't there fault, sure the ilegal ones can push off, or if they are not doing anything, not working then they should push off, My granmother came from Italy over to this country, by God she worked really hard, then by Dad and Grandmother came over from Indoneasia, My dad worked his ass off, they were all immigrants, and they all worked hard. those that live off benifits all there life are spoilt and Lazy. I do think they should get benefits mabey for an amount of time, until they get a job and find work, but then after that ammount of time, they whould cut the benefits off, that way at least they would get off their asses, most people i know dont live off benefits, i'm sure not that many do, for still.

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Ari Gold

No, they should not install any more anti-immigration legislation. Your country is essentially made of off immigrants, as is mine. I'm still unconvinced that people lose their jobs because of race or religion or sexuality; I'm also unconvinced that the majority of companies break the law by paying under the minimum wage in America. Usually companies outsource their works into other nations in South America and South-East Asia if they want cheap workers, they don't illegally pay payments which are lower than the minimum wage just to give some Honduran or Mexican enough money to put his bread/tacos on the table.

 

 

Besides, I'm a firm believer that the job should go to the guy who does it best...regardless of race, gender, sexual preferance or any other tag you want to slap on someone. Comes down to darwinism really.

 

Basically, this.

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socal000
Besides, I'm a firm believer that the job should go to the guy who does it best...regardless of race, gender, sexual preferance or any other tag you want to slap on someone.

Agreed

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Pac.
Besides, I'm a firm believer that the job should go to the guy who does it best...regardless of race, gender, sexual preferance or any other tag you want to slap on someone.

Agreed

I will 3rd this, answerw which is right aswell.

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Tyler

Mabye both sides are struggling to live a better life. That's why illegal immigrants risk so much, is because they're tired of their life of fear. But on the other hand, some Illegal immigrats use their risk taking as a martyr so that they can live it up and make their neighbors feel guilty that the immigranthad to go through so much. I don't know i'm just ranting sarcasm.gif

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Vido Corleone

It's Illegal Immigration. End of story.

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Mad Tony
Besides, I'm a firm believer that the job should go to the guy who does it best...regardless of race, gender, sexual preferance or any other tag you want to slap on someone. Comes down to darwinism really.

I agree completely. This is of course, if the person in question is here legally.

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Jesus'En'Hitler420

Well, illegal immigration of inhabitants that plan to stay in the U.S is a problem because they aren't going to be paying taxes towards the services that we all pay for, I just think that's unfair and I have no problem with Miranda rights not being issued when they are finally caught. I don't understand what is so damn hard about applying for citizenship, can someone please explain why so many of the illegals seem to have a problem with doing what would seem like such a simple task? Is it really that hard that some will put it off for years and sometimes not even bother at all?

 

Employment wise, it's a way for shopkeeps and contractors to get really cheap work, which is actually not beneficial to the immigrant, another thing that I don't understand. Is it that they just do not know about the laws we have for labor and minimum wage and such? Or do they just not care? Another good reason for citizenship.

 

Lastly, closing the border (Or atleast securing it with manpower) I find to be a big issue due to the cartels and crime. People getting kidnapped, murder, drug/human trafficking, and so on and so forth. Some of the hottest crime zones in the U.S are along the Mexico/US border. Big issues, need to be dealt with.

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Ari Gold
Well, illegal immigration of inhabitants that plan to stay in the U.S is a problem because they aren't going to be paying taxes towards the services that we all pay for, I just think that's unfair and I have no problem with Miranda rights not being issued when they are finally caught. I don't understand what is so damn hard about applying for citizenship, can someone please explain why so many of the illegals seem to have a problem with doing what would seem like such a simple task? Is it really that hard that some will put it off for years and sometimes not even bother at all?

 

Employment wise, it's a way for shopkeeps and contractors to get really cheap work, which is actually not beneficial to the immigrant, another thing that I don't understand. Is it that they just do not know about the laws we have for labor and minimum wage and such? Or do they just not care? Another good reason for citizenship.

 

Lastly, closing the border (Or atleast securing it with manpower) I find to be a big issue due to the cartels and crime. People getting kidnapped, murder, drug/human trafficking, and so on and so forth. Some of the hottest crime zones in the U.S are along the Mexico/US border. Big issues, need to be dealt with.

The process to get a US Visa or residency can sometimes be incredibly difficult, especially being an Australian citizen. I can only imagine how difficult it would be some poor family in Tijuana or any other city to try and get a green card/Visa for their whole family and have enough money to sustain a living in the US. For some of them it's easier to skip that process and save time and just jump the border. I've even heard of some Mexicans getting Canadian Visas/residency and then going from Canada into the United States from the northern border.

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Mad Tony
The process to get a US Visa or residency can sometimes be incredibly difficult, especially being an Australian citizen. I can only imagine how difficult it would be some poor family in Tijuana or any other city to try and get a green card/Visa for their whole family and have enough money to sustain a living in the US. For some of them it's easier to skip that process and save time and just jump the border.

That still doesn't make it right though doest it? It's called illegal immigration for a reason.

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nlitement

 

The process to get a US Visa or residency can sometimes be incredibly difficult, especially being an Australian citizen. I can only imagine how difficult it would be some poor family in Tijuana or any other city to try and get a green card/Visa for their whole family and have enough money to sustain a living in the US. For some of them it's easier to skip that process and save time and just jump the border.

That still doesn't make it right though doest it? It's called illegal immigration for a reason.

Exactly. I don't see why you would defend illegal immigration. If you want to do something for illegal immigrants, petition for them to become legal.

 

And I still don't understand what's so unclear here. The question isn't even about whether or not they're Mexican or poor or should be pitied for their plight or what have you, it's about the very basic foundations of something called "borders". I don't follow the issue too closely, but I've been given the impression that (in America) even if they know someone's illegal, they don't deport them (or that not much effort is given to enforcing borders)? Why would yo not do that? Every country has their sacred right to do that, there's no reason to try to justify it, it's illegal, no permission is given, so leave. Here in Europe, most of our immigrants come through refugee centers, even if they cross the border questionably, so at least they get their PAPER work done and are legal, so there's none of this "derka derr" stuff going on (or at least, people can't argue that they are there "illegally").

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Ad Rem

 

The process to get a US Visa or residency can sometimes be incredibly difficult, especially being an Australian citizen. I can only imagine how difficult it would be some poor family in Tijuana or any other city to try and get a green card/Visa for their whole family and have enough money to sustain a living in the US. For some of them it's easier to skip that process and save time and just jump the border.

That still doesn't make it right though doest it? It's called illegal immigration for a reason.

I find that to be quite a weak argument. Jaywalking is illegal but I doubt you get up in arms if you see someone do it, or god forbid, do it yourself. I find it hard to oppose something solely because the activity has been labeled illegal. That's nothing but a word and doesn't necessarily say anything about how "wrong" or "right" something is, thus your reasoning is flawed at best.

 

I do have some problems with illegal immigration. For one, they won't be paying taxes, as Jesus'En'Hitler420 mentioned. They won't necessarily have particularly good prospects for a decent life either, so a part might be more prone to engaging in criminal activities, which isn't exactly desirable. Still, if I knew an illegal immigrant who works hard to sustain themselves, I wouldn't go out of my way to report them. That's my quick two cents.

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Kamaal

In my area, there are a lotta Illegals but I wouldn't call it a problem.

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EduardKoeleJuck
EDIT: Never mind, didn't read it well. Edited by EduardKoeleJuck

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Ari Gold

I'm not defending illegal immigration, I'm just sympathetic with those who are brought up in extremely hard circumstances and want to emigrate to provide more oppurtunities for their lives, even if they take daring risks in order to achieve it. Of course I'd want them to perform it legally, I still have respect and follow the basic rule of law and wouldn't emigrate to a country myself illegally, but I bet none of you actually understand some of the circumstances that those people are in. I say that if someone is found trying to cross the border, that instead of deporting them you place them in refugee centres, where their statuses are checked, their history is checked, and in these centres they can have direct dealings with the Mexican and US governments where they can organise official immigration papers, and can receive Visas. It's worked in Australia and Europe, why can't it work in the US?

 

I apologise if you already have them, but I've never heard of immigration centres in the US so that above paragraph is essentially useless if you do lol.

 

Plus, unless it's crippling your economy (which I doubt it is; it's not like illegal immigration was the reason for the global financial crisis) I don't see it as such a huge problem. But then again, I don't live in America and I'm born to (legal) immigrants, but that's just my two cents.

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Jesus'En'Hitler420

 

They won't necessarily have particularly good prospects for a decent life either, so a part might be more prone to engaging in criminal activities, which isn't exactly desirable. Still, if I knew an illegal immigrant who works hard to sustain themselves, I wouldn't go out of my way to report them. That's my quick two cents.

 

This is pretty much how I see it. I know of a few illegals who do subcontracting for legit US home repair businesses in my area but I won't report them because they are working very hard themselves. But, the only reason they are still subcontractors and getting sh*t pay for the work they do is because they are not legal citizens. If they were legal citizens, they would most likely be just hired by the company, get better pay, and get employer-provided health insurance. It sucks because most of these companies that hire these illegals as subcontractors are now not hiring their own salary workers, which sucks for me because I damn well wouldn't mind getting a job as a day laborer because I know I can do the work, but they would be losing money by hiring me because they would have to provide the goodies that are normally given to legal, hourly workers.

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bobgtafan

In a world were Mexico isn't a corrupt crime and poverty filled nation we could open up the borders between Mexico and Canada. In the real world we need ammesty for illegals from Central and Latin America and more border security.

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Breaking Bohan

It doesn't seem to be a big deal in the Midwest ...... yet.

 

How do all these people keep getting into the country anyways?

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Tyler

Very simply they are crossing over the land. A popular tacic used by indo- chinesmen during te last ice-age, to cross into the Americas and settle down.

 

It seems those damn mexican seem to have read up on history and decided to repeat it for the better.

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jimmy.

Watch this and then post, please. Thanks!

 

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Tyler

49 minutes? f*ck you, slim it down a bit and then I'll watch it.

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Dingdongs

I don't feel like watching the video, but considering it's called no more dead, I'll guess it's about the drug war.

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jimmy.

 

49 minutes? f*ck you, slim it down a bit and then I'll watch it.

It's not my video and I'm therefore not going to "slim it down." There's a seek option on yt for a reason. I know you need to watch porn and check your facebook and log into Warcraft every 5 minutes, and you can't handle a single video over 30 seconds, but you should still try to gain an attention span.

 

 

In a world were Mexico isn't a corrupt crime and poverty filled nation we could open up the borders between Mexico and Canada. In the real world we need ammesty for illegals from Central and Latin America and more border security.

 

We could address the root causes of the massive Mexican migration rather than just try to beat it back with force. One easy thing that we could do is get the government to stop subsidizing corn crops so that Mexican farmers are able to compete with cheap imports. That would allow for more Mexican farmers to make a living. That's just one non-violent solution and we need many.

 

General question to everyone - does anyone really think having more of a military presence on the border, as some political leaders are advocating, is a good idea?

 

This is in the current context of there being an extremely violent conflict (El Paso's twin border city, Juarez, is the most violent city in the world for 2009!)(23,000 people have been killed in three years during the Mexican drug war) between Mexican cartels and with the military, which kills both cartel members and civilians alike. Drugs are a large fraction of Mexico's GDP and it's growing while other sectors are declining. Placing troops along the border would just be asking for an eventual provocation from the Mexican military or drug cartels. I don't suppose that the US military would de-escalate the situation, once provoked.

 

The "fight force with force" argument may be fine for armchair militarists when the targets are 6,000 miles away, but does it still make sense when they are mere hundreds or less away? The cartels are well armed, extremely violent, have nothing to lose, and can likely recruit lots more people if needed. Sidenote - A poll found that 40 percent of the young males in the Mexican border state of Chihuahua, where Juarez is located, wanted to become sicarios, professional killers. Also, the border is 2,000 miles long and would need so many troops to oversee, even if a full physical border fence were ever implemented. This would all add up to a logistical nightmare. All wars are, but you can control the narrative of conflicts 6,000 miles away and across cultural barriers, and you can typically spin them however way you want in most situations. When it's happening in your backyard, that's another story. Responding with violence would just create more problems, as it often does. The last time there was a real prolonged armed conflict beyond a few people involved, in the contiguous 48 states, was, what, 1865?

Edited by jimmy.

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illspirit

 

We could address the root causes of the massive Mexican migration rather than just try to beat it back with force. One easy thing that we could do is get the government to stop subsidizing corn crops so that Mexican farmers are able to compete with cheap imports. That would allow for more Mexican farmers to make a living. That's just one non-violent solution and we need many.

Yes, but unfortunately, both halves of the Republicrat party are too dependent on votes bought with the subsidies to do anything about it. Which is especially funny since the "republicans" are trying to pretend they're for small government, but are running attack ads against Rand Paul in the Kentucky primary right now claiming he hates farmers because he opposes big government subsidies. lol.gif

 

No time to watch the whole Chomsky video right now, but I made it about three minutes in before hitting a serious eye-roller when he blames subsidies on free-marketers. Unless he was being sarcastic, that's some serious word fail for a distinguished professor of linguistics..

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E.A.B.

 

No matter how noble their reason, be it that they want to give immigrants jobs, or they just want to keep their heads above water, it's illegal.  And now more than ever with unemployment rates skyrocketing, it's a legitimate issue.

If they're doing it to keep their heads above water, then hiring American workers would bankrupt them, thereby losing a company and, in the process, more jobs.

 

Why has no one brought this up?

 

If Americans want companies to 'bring back' their jobs or stop hiring illegals, then Americans should...

 

 

...they should....should....accept lower pay

 

 

Employment wise, it's a way for shopkeeps and contractors to get really cheap work, which is actually not beneficial to the immigrant, another thing that I don't understand.

 

It's actually very beneficial when the average immigrant got at LEAST 50% less than what they can get in America.

 

Also, the business gets to stay above water and, when times are better, grow and expand. But for now, it's simply trying to stay afloat, and cheap labor certainly helps it get by through tough times until the average American can afford more. IF the business ISN'T 'trying to stay afloat' and simply profiting, then the business gets to expand and grow larger in size and scope. Either way, both parties ACTUALLY WIN.

 

I am NOT pro illegal immigration or anything, but people simplify the issue far too much.

 

 

They won't necessarily have particularly good prospects for a decent life either, so a part might be more prone to engaging in criminal activities, which isn't exactly desirable.

 

If you're referring to illegals working for lower pay; you're both wrong and right.

 

The average illegal isn't as materialistic as, say, and American. When they work, they save up the pay. They don't have credit cards, nor do they subscribe to 'installment buying' or any sort of unnecessary item of luxury.

 

At least, the hard working, really poor ones. The children are usually sh*theads born in the typical American culture of materialism, consumerism and all that other crap. They want to get paid quick, so they do sh*t that lets them get paid quick.

 

AGAIN, I HAVE TO RE-ITERATE, I AM NOT PRO ILLEGAL IMMIGRANTS. But its a complicated issue, so my two cents aren't 'close borders' or 'keep them in'. It's a very complex, and it requires more than just looking at immigrants but also wages, companies and even globalization if you truly, truly want your job back.

Edited by E.A.B.

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massrcor

 

...they should....should....accept lower pay

Hmmm, check your facts? We can't just accept lower pay, most illegals get below minimum wage. A legal citizen, with a job that pulls taxes, cannot accept lower than minimum wages due to state/federal laws and the fact it shows your hourly wages and money earned for X amount of hours. So, anyone would see this employer breaking the law by underpaying a worker. That's why there is a minimum wage, that is the lowest you can pay somebody without breaking the law.

 

They sidestep this all together by paying an illegal to do it that has no tax/wages history.

 

 

The average illegal isn't as materialistic as, say, and American

 

And american? lol

anyway, I grew up poor and wasn't materialistic at all... I couldn't be.

Now i'm working through college for a better life.

All Americans aren't materialistic, Try thinking before you post.

 

 

typical American culture of materialism, consumerism and all that other crap

I'm glad you believe every negative American stereotype. sarcasm.gif

 

All in all, I'm sick of Illegals flooding my country. I live in california, So I know how bad the illegal alien problem is.

 

I think that if an Illegal alien pops out a kid on our soil, then her and that kid should be deported back. Of course, we could at least deliver the baby and make sure all is well before we give her the boot. Even at that we are doing too much for a criminal that has no respect for our border or laws.

 

"they need to feed their families, whaaa whaaaa"

 

Why is it our problem? really. If i can't feed my family can I go to mexico for help and free goverment aid and whatnot? Hell mothaFocker no! Will they let me live there and suck off their goverment? Hell MotherFocker no! Will they let my wife spit a child out on their soil and support it and my family for the rest of eternity? HELL MOTHERFOCKER NO!

 

 

Now people say, we were founded on Immigrants. Yes, we were. But there were few laws and borders back then, it was just a free for all where you could claim land and hell, do anything.

In America today we have laws and borders. Not to mention the land they're crossing over on is either privately owned or goverment owned. They[the owners of the land] have the right to not have undocumented, murderers for all we know, traipsing all over their hard EARNED land.

It a right to any CITIZEN.

 

This next part really grinds my gears.

It's easier for an Illegal to get food stamps/EBT. When my brother, Yes we are poor, went to get EBT he saw that you have to fill out a 2 page form with your life history on it: birthdate, SSN, mother's maiden name, etc.

 

But if you're an Illegal all you have to do is check 1 little box indicating you have no legal papers. Then you get the same benifits, maybe more?, than a true citizen that pays taxes and needs some help.

Why is That? Why is it easier for an undocumented illegal alien to get goverment help than my brother, a hardworking taxpaying citizen.

 

It makes no sense.

 

 

 

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