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Pumpkin Zone

Healthcare Reform Passed

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Cilogy

I'll tell you man, I deeply dislike how libertarian the U.S. has been. The Revolutionaries in the 1700s didn't like government that much, and for some reason that idea stuck.

 

Americans are so sure that they want less and less government involvement, until they dig themselves holes that they cant get out of. I mean even using the word "government" these days gives Americans a bitter taste in their mouth for some reason.

 

Somehow it has been ingrained into the American brain that more government = bad, when that's not always the case.

 

What I don't understand is why people think that this is a government take-over of the healthcare industry, because hospitals and small-businesses will still provide care independently.

 

I also agree with whoever said that there are not only two outcomes. This is true. But the question is which is the most likely. There are better ways, but the public option passed recently was the best one considering the circumstances.

 

Government run insurance seems to work well, if not better, in other countries. I'm all for it. Call me a socialist.

Edited by Cilogy

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General Goose

If it helps more people then it annoys and hinders, it's good. I'm not an expert, but the US healthcare system always struck me as effed up. It looks to me like this is a step in the right direction.

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Jesus'En'Hitler420

The last two posters are simply talking out of their ass about the perfect world where money and work do not exist, so just ignore them and I'll handle the problem. Read the legislation, read the penalties and all the other nonsense in it, then be happy about the power grab by these politicians that you are all so excited about.

 

 

Americans are so sure that they want less and less government involvement, until they dig themselves holes that they cant get out of. I mean even using the word "government" these days gives Americans a bitter taste in their mouth for some reason.

 

Here's a person that has no concept of individual liberty. The federal government has few jobs, running a national military, keeping the currency, and protecting the rights of the citizens. That last one I mentioned they are blatantly stepping on.

 

Now someone who is making $25-30,000 will have no choice in healthcare even though they can't afford either. They either pay the extra percentage to get the public option, they pay extra for a private, or they pay even more in penalties for denying both. How is that good for anyone? No choice, anymore.

 

Now you talk about someother nonsense about "less and less" government. Incase you've been asleep your whole f*cking life which is pretty evident at the moment, this country is mainly run by.... wait for it.... THE STATES. States can choose what laws they want to enact, how many laws, how few laws. There used to be a day where I could say "I want to be in a more liberal state, so I'll move to Massachussettes" or "I want less gun control, so I'll move to whereever that has less gun laws". Again, choices, but all part of the same union held together by a tightly restricted federal government.

 

Now, the Feds have greatly increased power over 46% of people who DID NOT VOTE FOR THE CURRENT PRESIDENT. The states will have even less control over their territories now, we are all becoming one, one under a fascist state where they tell you you either get healthcare or pay out of your ass in penalties, yet, any congressmen, senator, or any politician can OPT OUT. Their new rules won't even apply to them. Only to your mom, your dad, whoever that's out there 40 hours a week to earn a weekly paycheck. Me and my dad are going to have to put up with this nonsense, so thank you for whishing it upon me, you f*cking excuse for a "compassionate" human being.

 

I can't believe I have to repeat what I learned in the f*cking 6th grade. You people are all stupid, no doubt about it.

 

 

If it helps more people then it annoys and hinders, it's good. I'm not an expert, but the US healthcare system always struck me as effed up. It looks to me like this is a step in the right direction.

 

Annoys and hinders? Are you under a f*cking rock? Illspirit just posted how thousands of dollars in fines and even jail time could result in not wanting this sh*t shoved down your throat, what are you talking about just "annoys and hinders." How the hell is the guy earning $30,000 who can't afford private or public, supposed to all of a sudden have to pay 10%-30% of his yearly salary in fines?

 

What the f*ck kind of backwards world do you people live in? Does money, expenses, the cost of living ever play any effect in your heads? All I hear out of you imbeciles is "WELL IN THE PERFECT WORLD IT SHOULD BE DONE SO SINCE WE WANT THE PERFECT WORLD WHERE IT'S SUNSHINE AND f*ckING RAINBOWS, THEN WE SHOULD DO IT, BECAUSE IT'S JUST THE RIGHT THING TO DO"

 

What the perfect world idealogue always forgets is how much imperfection in the world there is.

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buffalosoulj4h20

 

Umm, what? Incase you haven't been listening to anything, less than 20% of Americans even consider health care reform an issue. People are more worried about what the dollar is going to be worth and the economy, neither of which are getting any better which in turn is giving your pathetic argument an excuse because it makes the politicians "sound like they care", because people won't have any f*cking money to afford healthcare.

 

''Less than 20% even consider health care reform an issue''

 

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2009/08/20/n...o_n_264375.html

http://www.cbsnews.com/blogs/2009/10/20/po...ry5401123.shtml

http://prescriptions.blogs.nytimes.com/200...-public-option/

 

 

Futhermore, the only reason anyone supports this because they feel compassion, however, if any of you took time to read the legislation, read about the dozens upon dozens of new beuracracies that are going to be created, the taxes upon taxes that are going to be levied on businesses, taxes on people who already have insurance, taxes on people who choose not to get any insurance (Private/Public, doesn't matter), the mandates on private practices like eating soda or chips, owning guns, doing anything deemed "harmful" to your body (Get ready for rock climbers to be taxed, or any other "dangerous" hobby).

 

''Furthermore, the only reason anyone supports this because they feel compassion''

 

Yea, something you all lack outside of your embittered brains, while 47 million people are lacking healthcare and are paying the price for it. Being denied help because they've been raped or been involved in a domestic violence situation. And like there is some conspiracy that the government will come and shoot your kids are just part of your tactic and only tactic to fear mongrel people. Private insures are having the real control over what doctors can and cannot do, more than the government who is giving people the option to choose their private health or the public option. If you like the private insurance companies so much you can just go ahead and kiss their ass for all we, the sick and dying care. Just because you're an idiot who doesn't want to be insured doesn't mean we all, who lack health insurance, have to be in choose what you say.

 

 

@Illspirit:

Generally speaking, yes, except maybe catastrophic insurance. The way everybody uses it now to essentially pre-pay for things they know will happen and expecting it to be cheaper is insane (like I said here). Costs would come down if people actually saw the prices and didn't assume somebody else (be it an insurance company or the gov) will magically pay for it.

 

As for Medicare, umm, it's running a deficit now, and has a $74 trillion unfunded liability. That is not sustainable. You are right that doing nothing isn't an option, but throwing even more money into a giant hole is even worse. All the government health care in the world won't mean a damn thing if the dollar crashes due to too much debt.

 

Where is the links for all this you have said? If taxes have to be raised it can be raised on the rich. It seem to me you're saying its a free all to let poor, sick middleclass people pay for their own health insurance which is not the solution at all. You're complaining more about problems than offering solutions.

Edited by buffalosoulj4h20

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General Goose

sh*t, I don't live under a f*cking rock. I live in Britain. Sometimes it feels the same, but...

 

Ah screw this, I'm a Brit, I don't know sh*t about your healthcare system, I'm not gonna bother posting any more. No need to insult me and you may be pissed off, but calm down, FFS. Don't rage on the internet, makes people not wanna listen to you.

 

Just hope one day you actually get this bullsh*t sorted out, because your healthcare system sounded bullsh*t before.

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Guns N R0se

 

Health insurance is a SERVICE, not an ENTITLEMENT!

QFT.

 

 

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buffalosoulj4h20

No, more like we have that right to live and get help before we die.

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Mad Tony

Hmm, I can't see any good coming of this. The country simply can't pay for it. Obama should be focused on bringing down the national debt, not spending like it doesn't even exist. That and the fact that I see this as a big expansion of the federal government.

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Spaghetti Cat

I'm sure that all of the congressmen that voted for the bill will be giving up their coverage for this new government option. sarcasm.gif

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Guns N R0se
No, more like we have that right to live and get help before we die.

If you can't afford help in the first place you don't deserve it.

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General Goose
No, more like we have that right to live and get help before we die.

If you can't afford help in the first place you don't deserve it.

Young children included?

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buffalosoulj4h20
No, more like we have that right to live and get help before we die.

If you can't afford help in the first place you don't deserve it.

Haha, don't worry if you wanted to look more like a dick you did your job. Ain't no arguing that. I hope you suffer from your own words one day. Had a flu back in 1999? Don't worry I'm sure the companies won't think it's a pre-existing condition when you suffer from an accident or get cancer.

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Svip

As much as I support the idea of a universal healthcare system (I am a godless socialist, after all), I cannot support any healthcare system, and certainly not the one passed by the House.

 

Moreover, healthcare isn't really the United States' biggest problem right now. It has been a problem for a long time, that's true, but it has never really being a 'pressing issue'. And right now, the United States have some other pressing issues, that it seems should be cleared out of the way before something as big as healthcare is changed.

 

Healthcare is a big thing and needs to be done right. The United States need healthcare reform, no doubt about it. But this is not the answer, not something this rushed.

 

Once issues like financial crisis, and well, global warming are fixed or contained, big moves like healthcare should be the next on the list.

 

I realise the financial crisis is not an easy nut to crack, although it seems we are getting there. And global warming, or climate change in general, is even harder. And even if we could fix these issues at the same time, there is no need to rush into quick and dirty solutions.

 

When it comes to healthcare, my favourite example of a well functioning and brilliant healthcare system is that of France. Hate the Frenchies all you want, but when you realise how their system work, you may be intrigued by what these baguette eaters came up with.

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illspirit

 

I'll tell you man, I deeply dislike how libertarian the U.S. has been. The Revolutionaries in the 1700s didn't like government that much, and for some reason that idea stuck.

"If ye love wealth better than liberty, the tranquility of servitude than the animated contest of freedom — go home from us in peace. We ask not your counsels or arms. Crouch down and lick the hands which feed you. May your chains sit lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen!" -Samuel Adams, 1776 tounge.gif

 

 

Government run insurance seems to work well, if not better, in other countries. I'm all for it. Call me a socialist.

But you're not even getting what (arguably) "works" in other countries. The misleadingly named "public option" is something they're going to sell you. The only "option" is whether you buy it from HHS or a private company. Either way, you will be required to buy something, under threat of fines and/or prison if you don't comply.

 

Furthermore, Section 321 c allows the HHS Secretary to contract out the administration of the program to an outside source (think: Halliburton or GE). If that happens (and GE has been lobbying heavily for it), you will end up with a corporate-run quasi-government agency running your healthcare (think Fannie Mae or Amtrak).

 

Supporting either doesn't make you a socialist. It makes you a textbook fascist. Once you get past the cliche of jackboots, fascism is primarily a "Third Way" between socialism and capitalism where the corporations and the government are joined at the hip.

 

 

Ah screw this, I'm a Brit, I don't know sh*t about your healthcare system, I'm not gonna bother posting any more. No need to insult me and you may be pissed off, but calm down, FFS. Don't rage on the internet, makes people not wanna listen to you.

Don't feel bad. You probably know more about it than 90% of the US public and over half of Congress. tounge.gif

 

 

Where is the links for all this you have said? If taxes have to be raised it can be raised on the rich. It seem to me you're saying its a free all to let poor, sick middleclass people pay for their own health insurance which is not the solution at all. You're complaining more about problems than offering solutions.

Oops. Did I say $74 trillion. I forgot it went up to $89 trillion this year.

 

http://www.ncpa.org/pub/ba662

 

 

The 2009 Social Security and Medicare Trustees Reports show the combined unfunded liability of these two programs has reached nearly $107 trillion in today's dollars!  That is about seven times the size of the U.S. economy and 10 times the size of the outstanding national debt.

 

You can't tax your way out of that without killing the economy..

 

The CBO also found that if federal income tax rates are adjusted to allow the government to continue its current level of activity and balance its budget:

 

    * The lowest marginal income tax rate of 10 percent would have to rise to 26 percent.

    * The 25 percent marginal tax rate would increase to 66 percent.

    * The current highest marginal tax rate (35 percent) would rise to 92 percent!

 

Additionally, the top corporate income tax rate of 35 percent would increase to 92 percent.

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buffalosoulj4h20

That means the US government isn't doing it right and that includes the massive debt that Bush sent us in. It should be modeled after Britain and Canada. Medicare still helps people, more people that aren't insured at all. You're still not providing any solutions. I'm saying reform, you're saying nuthin at all.

Edited by buffalosoulj4h20

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illspirit

 

That means the US government isn't doing it right and that includes the massive debt that Bush sent us in. It should be modeled after Britian and Canada. Medicare still helps people, more people that aren't insured at all. You're still not providing any solutions. I'm saying reform, you're saying nuthin at all.

That isn't the national debt. That's just what Medicare and Social Security are on the hook for going forward. As in, the current debt of $11 trillion (4 trillion of which happened under Bush) plus $107 trillion. $16.2 trillion of that unfunded liability is the Medicare prescription drug plan Bush signed.

 

Adding more spending on top of all that isn't "reform." It's insanity.

 

If they modeled "reform" after the UK or Canada, it would essentially be what Medicare is. Medicare doesn't help the uninsured. It is insurance for retired people.

 

And it's going broke.

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buffalosoulj4h20
That means the US government isn't doing it right and that includes the massive debt that Bush sent us in. It should be modeled after Britian and Canada. Medicare still helps people, more people that aren't insured at all. You're still not providing any solutions. I'm saying reform, you're saying nuthin at all.

That isn't the national debt. That's just what Medicare and Social Security are on the hook for going forward. As in, the current debt of $11 trillion (4 trillion of which happened under Bush) plus $107 trillion. $16.2 trillion of that unfunded liability is the Medicare prescription drug plan Bush signed.

 

Adding more spending on top of all that isn't "reform." It's insanity.

 

If they modeled "reform" after the UK or Canada, it would essentially be what Medicare is. Medicare doesn't help the uninsured. It is insurance for retired people.

 

And it's going broke.

I didn't say Medicare was for the uninsured, I said it helps and it's government, yet it works. Again, no solution.

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illspirit

 

I didn't say Medicare was for the uninsured, I said it helps and it's government, yet it works. Again, no solution.

Err, it doesn't work. It's going bankrupt. By 2052, Medicare and Social Security will consume all Federal tax revenues. Where will you get the money to pay for the rest of the spending? Let alone this new bill? Sooner or later, the rest of the world is going to stop lending us money if we keep spending like this. When this happens, you won't be getting any help from the government because there won't be any government nor money to spend.

 

You want solutions?

 

Repeal the 16th Amendment and do away with income taxes. Then businesses and employees/unions won't have to "hide" wages in tax-free insurance policies. Everyone who ditches said policies in exchange for actual wages will see a huge raise. They can use this to buy their own insurance (where they actually see the price and can shop around, causing insurers to lower prices to compete), or pay for health services in person like we do with every other product or service(where, again, they actually see prices, causing doctors to lower prices to compete.)

 

Lower the corporate tax rate. As it stands, we have the second highest in the world! Were it more competitive, industries wouldn't ship so many jobs overseas, and with more jobs, more people could afford to take care of themselves.

 

Change the law so people can buy insurance from other States. Thus breaking up intrastate monopolies so people can buy cheaper policies from someone else.

 

Get rid of protectionist trade policies and price controls which favor pharmaceutical companies. Canadians pay roughly half what we do for medicine because Medicare and such lock in our prices. We can't buy most of them from Canada because they're controlled substances subject to strict import controls (even if they were made here).

 

Break up the AMA monopoly on medical licensing. They've historically limited the number of doctors to drive prices higher.

 

Limit frivolous medical malpractice suits (maybe loser-pays, like the UK, since you like their ideas so much wink.gif) to cut back the insane costs of malpractice insurance and cut back on the number of unnecessary and expensive "defensive" tests doctors do to cover their ass.

 

Cut Congressional pay in half and use that to care for the poor. tounge.gif

 

Oh, and tell the people spending billions and billions of dollars lobbying for health care for the poor that they could have solved the problem by now if they spent it directly on the poor in the first place. But, then, I suspect a large portion of them are more interested in the power and/or government contracts to be had..

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Spaghetti Cat

I thought I was reasonably well informed on these issues, but I'm learning something new in in every one of your posts Illspirit. Thanks buddy!

 

Like for example, I looked up the 16th amendment on the ole wiki:

 

 

The Socialist Labor Party advocated for a graduated income tax in 1887.

 

Yeah, that sounds about right.

 

Anyways, Im glad that our congressman voted no on the bill. If only our two knuckle-head Senator's will do the same. I think it's pretty clear that this proposed bull is an example of what a bad law is/would be. As a congressman, if you didn't vote on party line, you were bought off. Anyone who thinks that this bill will reduce costs, or will get something for free, is fooling themselves.

 

Like ill and others have said, health-care is a privlage, not a right. We should be grateful that we live in a country like this. If I drop over about to die right now: 1) An ambulance will come soon after receiving a call. 2) Take me to the nearest medical hospital. 3) Try their best to fix the problem, if I have insurance or not.

 

Now, since I have no insurance, I will have to pay a pretty sizable bill. But, at least I'm still alive to pay it off. If that's the price I have to pay for freedom, then I'll gladly pay it. There is no such thing as a free ride.

 

Oh, and I don't plan on seeing any Medicare or Social Security when it comes my time b/c it will be broke by then.

 

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Pumpkin Zone
No, more like we have that right to live and get help before we die.

If you can't afford help in the first place you don't deserve it.

Let me put this as delicately and nicely as I possibly can.

 

F*ck you.

 

I'm not going to go into a giant discussion about my life, but I was born with spina bifidia. And I have spent a good deal of my childhood life in hospitals, and places such as that, seeing other children and people who are in pain. Who are born with things that they can't possibly overcome. Families who were poor as dirt, with a child who couldn't walk. Kids and adults who went through more pain than your stupid little head could possibly imagine.

 

And you're saying that just because they can't afford help they don't deserve it?

 

Well seeing as how you can't afford to be rational and smart then you don't deserve to live. Does that sound reasonable? Survival of the fittest, right? We should put you out of your misery now before you pass down your retarded ethics to what children you might have.

 

I don't even think that you people who are saying that nothing good will come from this healthcare reform even know anyone who TRULY needs healthcare, or even been in a predicament in their life where they looked at themselves and thought "well, I might just f*cking die right now".

 

I don't think you have an argument on a situation like this until you've lost all possible resources of help, and had no where to turn. You may throw all these words and books that say that the government is evil and can't do anything right. But you know why they can't? Because two different but comparable reasons. You don't put enough faith in the government. Not to mention a government is only as good as its people. And when the people think that the government will stab them in the back, then guess what? They probably will.

 

Let me list some things that the government runs, and works fine:

 

Electricity

Water

Sanitation

Libraries

Schools (okay, they don't work perfectly, but they work)

 

Many others that I can't think of right now since I'm in a white light fury of rage. Whatever, it's not like anyone who reads this cares. You'll still be sitting there with your tinfoil hats and will continue to think the government will rape you, while saying that anarchy is a good idea.

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buffalosoulj4h20

 

Err, it doesn't work. It's going bankrupt. By 2052, Medicare and Social Security will consume all Federal tax revenues. Where will you get the money to pay for the rest of the spending? Let alone this new bill? Sooner or later, the rest of the world is going to stop lending us money if we keep spending like this. When this happens, you won't be getting any help from the government because there won't be any government nor money to spend.

 

Err, I was talking about it helps for people. I wasn't talking about the debt.

 

 

Lower the corporate tax rate. As it stands, we have the second highest in the world! Were it more competitive, industries wouldn't ship so many jobs overseas, and with more jobs, more people could afford to take care of themselves.

 

If only these coperates weren't so greedy spending bonuses on private jets and their 5th car. They'll still ship jobs overseas because it's cheaper and it will give them more money to spend.

 

It seems all the rest of your ''solutions'' need a reality check. As long as people are greedy and need money like these insurance companies your ''solutions'' will never do anything. Which is why we need a reformation bill, not change the amendment and hope CEOs don't need another bailout.

 

@cat:

Now, since I have no insurance, I will have to pay a pretty sizable bill. But, at least I'm still alive to pay it off. If that's the price I have to pay for freedom, then I'll gladly pay it. There is no such thing as a free ride.

 

Yea, and in Canada and Britain, you can just walk in and get treated without a bill. I am more proud of their healthcare than ours. But before you say go to Canada then like a true patriot, this healthcare system has driven me broke with healthcare cost.

 

@Scotendo: Also, public-housing, transportation such as buses and trains, post offices, police, and fire stations.

Edited by buffalosoulj4h20

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Svip

 

Electricity

 

Most electricity is run by private contractors. Government runs very little when it comes to electricity. And this is even the case in more 'socialistic' countries like my own. Electricity is at best privatised, yet with obvious government oversight. But not run by government.

 

 

Water

 

Pretty much the same case with water as with electricity.

 

 

Sanitation

 

And this one as well.

 

 

Libraries

 

This is a local thing, federal government at best doesn't care, and just throws some money at it, hoping that local governments will pay attention to it. But it is certainly not the same government that is going to run your healthcare.

 

 

Schools (okay, they don't work perfectly, but they work)

 

Schools is actually the only thing you mention which is indirectly run with federal oversight. Of course, there are state laws, but it is only thing you mention that will be run by the same people who run healthcare according to the proposed bills.

 

And the education system in the United States is at best appalling. It is not non-functioning, but the illusion of a functioning education system certainly is gaining on many people.

 

Education needs some serious re-polishing in the United States, as well.

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General Goose

I think healthcare is a human right in the world we live in today. It's necessary to reduce suffering, pain and save lives. Just because other countries don't have it or it was not available historically does not make it just a privilege. We may be privileged to have that right available to us, maybe. But some people do not have food or freedom of speech. We (in all likelihood) do. We should all agree food and freedom of speech are human rights. Many do not have them, but does that make them only privileges? That seems to be what you're arguing with health care. I think sanitation and the right to not be bored sh*tless are also human rights.

 

I do think that if you can afford healthcare and want to go private or combine private with public, you should (call me a radical, but I think the millionaire businesspeople and aristocrats should have to pay for treatment themselves.) But, that right should not mess with everyone's right to a good healthcare coverage.

 

I get the impression that several parts of the reform force certain mandates and stuff on folk. I disagree with that, but the option should be there. I've heard stories of your insurance system failing the poor, or even failing those who can afford it when they need it most. That needs to change.

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illspirit

 

No, more like we have that right to live and get help before we die.

If you can't afford help in the first place you don't deserve it.

Let me put this as delicately and nicely as I possibly can.

 

F*ck you.

 

I'm not going to go into a giant discussion about my life, but I was born with spina bifidia. And I have spent a good deal of my childhood life in hospitals, and places such as that, seeing other children and people who are in pain. Who are born with things that they can't possibly overcome. Families who were poor as dirt, with a child who couldn't walk. Kids and adults who went through more pain than your stupid little head could possibly imagine.

 

And you're saying that just because they can't afford help they don't deserve it?

 

Well seeing as how you can't afford to be rational and smart then you don't deserve to live. Does that sound reasonable? Survival of the fittest, right? We should put you out of your misery now before you pass down your retarded ethics to what children you might have.

 

I don't even think that you people who are saying that nothing good will come from this healthcare reform even know anyone who TRULY needs healthcare, or even been in a predicament in their life where they looked at themselves and thought "well, I might just f*cking die right now".

 

I don't think you have an argument on a situation like this until you've lost all possible resources of help, and had no where to turn. You may throw all these words and books that say that the government is evil and can't do anything right. But you know why they can't? Because two different but comparable reasons. You don't put enough faith in the government. Not to mention a government is only as good as its people. And when the people think that the government will stab them in the back, then guess what? They probably will.chy is a good idea.

Your emotional argument might be worth exploring if the bill was about giving away health care to everyone. But it's not. Aside from a few million people who already qualify for Medicaid (but never bothered to sign up for whatever reason), and a partial subsidy to people just above the poverty line who don't qualify for Medicaid, they're not giving away anything. This bill forces everyone to buy insurance. Nor does it do much to control costs. The CBO said insurance premiums will continue to rise with this bill.

 

Which means, instead of getting anything for free from the Feds, you will be forced to spend even more money on insurance. Or pay a fine and maybe go to jail.

 

 

 

Let me list some things that the government runs, and works fine:

 

Electricity

Water

Sanitation

Libraries

Schools (okay, they don't work perfectly, but they work)

Electricity service here (and most other places) is provided by a private company. Sanitation and water services in many cities are run by private companies. There are also tens of thousands of private and charter schools across the country.

 

All of the above, however, are State and local functions even when they're not private. These are generally legitimate functions of State and local government. The Feds, on the other hand, do not have the Constitutional authority to do them.

 

Speaking of which, public schools have gotten progressively worse as the Feds have increased their unconstitutional interference.

 

 

Many others that I can't think of right now since I'm in a white light fury of rage.

Then maybe you should direct your rage at Congress? Again, this bill doesn't give you anything. It forces you to buy it.

 

 

Err, I was talking about it helps for people. I wasn't talking about the debt.

But it won't be able to help anyone if it runs out of money.. moto_whistle.gif

 

 

If only these coperates weren't so greedy spending bonuses on private jets and their 5th car. They'll still ship jobs overseas because it's cheaper and it will give them more money to spend.

 

It seems all the rest of your ''solutions''  need a reality check. As long as people are greedy and need money like these insurance companies your ''solutions'' will never do anything. Which is why we need a reformation bill, not change the amendment and hope CEOs don't need another bailout.

Waaaa! The big mean companies are spending their own money!111!

 

And part of the reason it's cheaper to do business overseas is because we have the second highest corporate tax rate in the world. So your point is, what, exactly?

 

Without money to spend, they can't do thing like hire people or build new offices and factories. In which they can hire even more people.

 

With regards to those "greedy" insurers, in particular, the industry operate on a razor thin profit margin of 3.3%. This places in about 86th place in the list of profitable industries. The average corporate profit margin is ~8%. A typical restaurant, for instance, has a profit margin near the middle at 7.5% At the top are beverage breweries with a margin of about 26%.

 

While 3% of their gross is a large amount of money when viewed out of context, any drastic and hasty change (such as this bill which most of Congress hasn't even read..) with a margin that slim is enough to blow up the whole system.

 

And, again, this bill is forcing everyone to buy insurance. In large part from the very companies you're complaining about! facedesk.gif

 

As for reality checks, again, all government "solutions" require either:

 

1- Borrowing or printing more money. As it is, foreign creditors and currency markets are already fleeing from the dollar. Just last week, India dumped a sh*t ton of dollars and bought gold, pushing the shiny metal to $1,100 an ounce. If the Feds and Fed don't reign in spending and printing soon, we run the risk of an economic and political collapse a la Argentina, Zimbabwe, or the Wiemar Republic. Government "help" won't help if there is no government and the dollar is worthless.

 

2- Confiscatory taxes. To sustain the projected level of Federal spending, you're going to have to take 90% of the income from the whole country. Which means people are essentially slaves for every 9 out of 10 days they work. You can only do this for so long before people quit working entirely, move what's left of our businesses overseas, or start shooting back at the armed tax collectors.

 

None of these options sound fun..

 

 

I think healthcare is a human right in the world we live in today.

So you support slavery then?

Edited by illspirit

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General Goose

And us Brits complain about our healthcare...

 

At least Obama tried. But for the most part it looked like he has failed in several aims. Maybe at a happier economic period, more debate and money could be put aside.

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buffalosoulj4h20

Yea, spending their money on expensive luxeries, but yet you trust them to keep jobs over here and keep cost down for healthcare. But money to spend? I'm sure last time they bough a private jet of their own. However I'm sure with the carrot dangling in front of you you too will be able to be that rich.

I just hope this pass the Senate.

Edited by buffalosoulj4h20

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Pumpkin Zone
Speaking of which, public schools have gotten progressively worse as the Feds have increased their unconstitutional interference.

That can be basically blamed on Bush's bullsh*t 'No Child Left Behind' ideal. I don't even know if it's still in effect since Obama took office.

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Mad Tony

Yes, let's all blame Bush for an education system which has been failing for decades.

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Svip

 

Yes, let's all blame Bush for an education system which has been failing for decades.

But it's so easy! It's like blaming him for the financial crisis too!

 

It's so deliciously easy!

 

And so very wrong.

 

I am no fan of Bush, not just because I disagree with him politically, but because he should never have been president, and I am not talking 2000 election craziness, I am talking the fact that Bush is not a presidential figure. He is in my mind one of the worst presidents in American history. I will not say that everything his administration have done was bad, but frankly, most of the stuff that went on in there was little of Bush's making.

 

Bush was more of a 'figurehead', he took the beatings and had to address the public, while his administration, lead by Dick Cheney, Karl Rove, Donald Rumsfeld, among others, directed the course of the nation.

 

In fact, I feel sorry for Bush.

 

The American education system have pretty much been in bad shape since ever. Or rather, the rest of the world caught up with it and have ran so much further ahead, that the American education now appears crap compared to the rest. It was probably pretty good when it was erected.

 

But time changes, and the US need to adapt to the new changes. Something I feel the US have failed to do on many levels. Which is a damn shame, because it will eventually be their loss.

 

As for the financial crisis, well, I sceptical as whether you can pinpoint on one thing along, but I will certainly give credit to Reagan's change of the economics in the US ('Reaganomics') in the 1980s, which changed the way the American financial sector had worked since FDR introduced regulations in 1938. The basics of 'Reaganomics' was to rid the system of these regulations.

 

And as you all know, the lack of regulations is the largest blame for the current financial meltdown.

 

So you can blame Bush for not doing something about it. But then you should also be blaming Clinton and Bush Sr. too. But who could have foreseen it?

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Mike Tequeli

I beg to differ, about regulation that is. The financial meltdown was caused by a systematic attempt to pursue home ownership and spending for the past two decades. The banks didn't really deregulate between Clinton and Bush, but the home ownership scheme continued aggressively. Every year Americans saved a certain portion of their money, until recently that is, Americans starting spending more then they had, which couldn't be blamed on deregulation.

 

And No Child Left Behind was an attempt to remedy the failing education system, it didn't work of course, but it was not the cause.

 

More on healthcare later.

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