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Pumpkin Zone

Healthcare Reform Passed

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Pumpkin Zone

Well, a very large day for America. The healthcare reform that Obama was pushing since the day he ran for President has been passed.

 

http://dailykos.com/

That site is currently talking about the passing, and has a video.

 

http://www.cnn.com/2009/POLITICS/11/07/hea...care/index.html

Another link, talks about abortion among other things that the reform will introduce.

 

 

---

My stepmom works for Blue Cross Blue Shield, so it's not good for her. But as someone who needs a lot of healthcare.. it's good. And good for many people. At least I hope it does.

 

Now we don't have to run to Canada for healthcare, anymore!

Edited by Scottendo

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ghost of delete key

I've been screaming at the TV.

 

Assholes, that's all I can say.

 

I hope they all get it when they:

1. get their asses kicked out in the next round of elections.

2. have their 12 year old daughters forced to take birth control "because we said so".

3. I don't think I can say this one in these forums...

 

 

none of these assholes will have to worry though, they all make 3 times the national average income for sitting around and concocting lies, so they can go buy whatever golden plan they choose.

 

Not you and I, however.

 

If this passese into law, they'll snap your dick off for not taking the plan they so graciously hand you (read 'stuff down your throat').

 

I for one will not play ball. I'm used to living on the outer fringes, and they'll have to drag my no-paying ass to jail before I take their mandatory pill.

 

I don't have a dime, and I don't have health insurance.

And I like it that way...

It's MY CHOICE. Health insurance is a SERVICE, not an ENTITLEMENT!

f*ck them if they believe they can summarily remove my constitutionaal right to choose.

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poopskin

i really don't care either way.

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buffalosoulj4h20

Yes! Now time for the Senate.

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Jonny_Tightlips

You're a selfish ass GODK, Government mandated health care is consideration for the people like myself who cannot afford health care. I'm having a huge amount of problem with my shoulder which is extremely expensive when it comes down to treating it, and with the way HMOs and health insurance companies capitaliE on peoples health is absolutely disgusting, it's inhumane.

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ghost of delete key

 

i really don't care either way.

You're going to care when you have to muster for mandatory physical exams, which will inevitably involve mandatory drug testing etc., you'll be told you HAVE TO do this and that because you're too fat, too skinny to crazy, whatever.

 

The truly scary thing is that this opens a big wide door to arbitrarily determine for you what your model of sanity should be.

 

Maybe you have these wacky conservative leanings that need to be medicated out of you so you 'fit in' a little better?

 

"here, you'll now be taking these happy pills since you seem to have these paranoid delusions that the government is stripping you of your rights..."

 

How would you like THAT mess? sly.gif

 

But judging from your post, that won't be a problem for you.

 

You'll do just fine in the new lock-step world.

 

I hope it doesn't cost you too much angst and income when your employer has to lay people off because they got their capital cut in half.

 

Anyway, you're young. You have a lot of years left before you start getting denied service because you're not cost efficient in the System.

Have fun with that. sneaky2.gif

 

<edit>

 

You're a selfish ass GODK, Government mandated health care is consideration for the people like myself who cannot afford health care. I'm having a huge amount of problem with my shoulder which is extremely expensive when it comes down to treating it, and with the way HMOs and health insurance companies capitaliE on peoples health is absolutely disgusting, it's inhumane.

 

I would say "you're part of the problem", but you wouldn't understand that either. You just don't get it.

 

I'M the selfish ass? sh*t, brother, you want ME to pay for your f*cking healthcare by government force, instead of allowing the problem to be properly fixed so that both you AND I could actually afford our own insurance either privately, or through our employers.

1. Tort reform- malpractice is out of f*cking control, and that's the major factor of high prices for insurance.

2. The next highest factor is the fact that you can't buy insurance across state lines. That's ridiculous. Let's fix that too, and freemarket competition will drive accurately lower costs. If I don't like PA plans, I can then shop the other 1300 companies in the other states. One will want my business.

3. Employee risk-pooling: go figure it out man, you got Google and half a brain, that's all it takes, but anyway, there's another one which will cut cost by a lot.

 

Fix these, and we won't have to assrape me and my neighbors across the country for your health insurance.

Friggin' classic. "selfish ass".

Get smart, man.

Edited by ghost of delete key

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bobgtafan
Yes! Now time for the Senate.

I can agree with you about something. Aman to that! Long live the Public Option.

Also to Ghost of Delete Key. What the hell? Since you feel that way if you get sick or hurt don't go to a hosiptal if you don't have the money because then you would be raising cost for me because you didn't want to pay for health care.

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Pumpkin Zone
"here, you'll now be taking these happy pills since you seem to have these paranoid delusions that the government is stripping you of your rights..."

You're the one with paranoid delusions.

 

I hope they give you pills.

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buffalosoulj4h20
i really don't care either way.

You're going to care when you have to muster for mandatory physical exams, which will inevitably involve mandatory drug testing etc., you'll be told you HAVE TO do this and that because you're too fat, too skinny to crazy, whatever.

 

The truly scary thing is that this opens a big wide door to arbitrarily determine for you what your model of sanity should be.

 

Maybe you have these wacky conservative leanings that need to be medicated out of you so you 'fit in' a little better?

 

"here, you'll now be taking these happy pills since you seem to have these paranoid delusions that the government is stripping you of your rights..."

 

How would you like THAT mess? sly.gif

 

But judging from your post, that won't be a problem for you.

 

You'll do just fine in the new lock-step world.

 

I hope it doesn't cost you too much angst and income when your employer has to lay people off because they got their capital cut in half.

 

Anyway, you're young. You have a lot of years left before you start getting denied service because you're not cost efficient in the System.

Have fun with that. sneaky2.gif

Forget the happy pills, I think you need the anti-psychotic mood stabilizers. The voices will go away, I promise.

 

@Bob: Don't ruin a good moment. tounge.gif

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Vanilla Shake

I'm down with this.

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ghost of delete key

 

Yes! Now time for the Senate.

I can agree with you about something. Aman to that! Long live the Public Option.

Also to Ghost of Delete Key. What the hell? Since you feel that way if you get sick or hurt don't go to a hosiptal if you don't have the money because then you would be raising cost for me because you didn't want to pay for health care.

Another one who drank the Kool-Aid.

 

Look at my previous post.

 

Fix those problems, and that becomes no more of an issue.

So then you don't have that chime to ring anymore.

 

That's just some boogeyman bullsh*t Nancy Pelosi and Charlie Rangel sold you, and you believe it because you're ether to lazy to research and learn how it all works, or you're just not that kind of bright, no offence.

We can't all be economics majors.

 

For the record, I would RATHER have health insurance, but because of the status quo, it's out of my reach.

 

And I don't believe I ought to force money out of you to get a watered-down version of it either.

 

@buffalosoulj4h20:

You're just funny.

Really. when you have something in the ballpark, come join the discussion.

 

 

 

You're the one with paranoid delusions.

 

I hope they give you pills.

Instead of just throwing barbs, how about bringing something logical to the table?

How is pointing out the obvious "paranoid"?

 

You ever read that fairy tale about the Emperor's New Clothes?

Discuss or gtfo.

Edited by ghost of delete key

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bobgtafan
Yes! Now time for the Senate.

I can agree with you about something. Aman to that! Long live the Public Option.

Also to Ghost of Delete Key. What the hell? Since you feel that way if you get sick or hurt don't go to a hosiptal if you don't have the money because then you would be raising cost for me because you didn't want to pay for health care.

Another one who drank the Kool-Aid.

 

Look at my previous post.

 

Fix those problems, and that becomes no more of an issue.

So then you don't have that chime to ring anymore.

 

That's just some boogeyman bullsh*t Nancy Pelosi and Charlie Rangel sold you, and you believe it because you're ether to lazy to research and learn how it all works, or you're just not that kind of bright, no offence.

We can't all be economics majors.

 

For the record, I would RATHER have health insurance, but because of the status quo, it's out of my reach.

 

And I don't believe I ought to force money out of you to get a watered-down version of it either.

 

@buffalosoulj4h20:

You're just funny.

Really. when you have something in the ballpark, come join the discussion.

So your stating the status quo is not providing afforable insurance for you and that you don't beleive a Public Option or new regualtion would help in that problem. So my question for you is why not? Why wouldn't a public option help you?

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buffalosoulj4h20

 

@buffalosoulj4h20:

You're just funny.

Really. when you have something in the ballpark, come join the discussion.

 

I know, I'm just making fun of ya. And I'm just waiting for the rest of the don't tread on me gang to show. Ya'll be good now. Good thing the world doesn't revolve around you crackpots. We need health reform now.

 

 

 

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Mainland Marauder
Fix those problems, and that becomes no more of an issue.

So then you don't have that chime to ring anymore.

This much I agree with.

 

There has to be either a way to get private insurers to cover these "preexisting conditions" they use to deny people coverage. If they cannot do it then the government is going to have to do it but it's embarrassing to what's supposed to be the most powerful country in the world to make these people pay out of pocket for their care because nobody will ensure them. Then they just end up going bankrupt or in the welfare system anyway. The insurance companies love the way things are, because not are their risk avoidance choices nearly unlimited (a wife who goes into the ER after getting beaten by her husband has a "preexisting condition" because she's in an abusive relationship? This has actually happened) but they are also making a killing off malpractice insurance all the doctors and nurses have to buy because of the free-for-all lawsuit lottery in the civil courts.

 

The real problem is that both sides are beating their ideological chests, making it seem there are only two outcomes to this, and anyone who can't notice (no matter their ideology) that the healthcare status quo is anything but a failure are as big a part of the problem as the ones who insist the government will fix everything.

 

Oh, and moving this to Debates & Discussion. icon14.gif

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ghost of delete key

Well, to quote myself from above,

 

 

...allowing the problem to be properly fixed so that both you AND I could actually afford our own insurance either privately, or through our employers.

1. Tort reform- malpractice is out of f*cking control, and that's the major factor of high prices for insurance.

2. The next highest factor is the fact that you can't buy insurance across state lines. That's ridiculous. Let's fix that too, and freemarket competition will drive accurately lower costs. If I don't like PA plans, I can then shop the other 1300 companies in the other states. One will want my business.

3. Employee risk-pooling: go figure it out man, you got Google and half a brain, that's all it takes, but anyway, there's another one which will cut cost by a lot.

 

These are the biggies right there.

These elements expliot the free market, that is supply is driven by demand.

The demand is obviously lower cost of insurance.

What's not so obvious, apparently, is that the way the system currently exists, it HINERS the free market, and demand is stifled by undue, and frankly ridiculous, regulation.

If you can't buy insurance from who you want, the Only Game In Town can charge whatever the hell they please without worrying that you'll go elsewhere to get your insurance. BECAUSE YOU CAN'T.

 

And if there were to be caps on the amounts to be won in malpractice suits, there would be little incentive to cash in on the system. Currently, if the doctor doesn't smile just the right way, some asshole will ALWAYS pull a payday with a $100M judgment for "pain and suffering" a la McDonalds. It's wrong. This is one HUGE reason costs are out of control, and it is also killing the medical profession, as practitioners must pay exorbitant amounts out of their own practices to insurance companies so that Sally can get her massive settlement because she sat in the waiting room an hour too long.

 

I'm sure these market principles make sense to you, no?

 

 

 

There has to be either a way to get private insurers to cover these "preexisting conditions" they use to deny people coverage.

Yeah, there's one I forgot to mention, but I think that's more of a second-tier importance. Important nonetheless. That all goes to allowing the market its freedom to choose. Not all insurance companies are the same; neither in their policies, or Policy in general.

If we're free to shop, The market supply-side will become much more compliant with the buyers desires for more sensible policies, regulation notwithstanding.

 

 

I know, I'm just making fun of ya. And I'm just waiting for the rest of the don't tread on me gang to show. Ya'll be good now. Good thing the world doesn't revolve around you crackpots. We need health reform now.

Pfft.

Stick around, you might learn something.

But then again, I'm an optimist.

Edited by ghost of delete key

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illspirit

 

You're a selfish ass GODK, Government mandated health care is consideration for the people like myself who cannot afford health care. I'm having a huge amount of problem with my shoulder which is extremely expensive when it comes down to treating it, and with the way HMOs and health insurance companies capitaliE on peoples health is absolutely disgusting, it's inhumane.

BWAHAHAHAHAHAAAaaaaaaaa

 

Consideration? You think the politicians are even considering you?! If so, here are two things for you to... consider:

 

First, the "public option" isn't even free. You have to pay for it unless you're slightly past the poverty line (I forget the number now because they keep changing the thing), but if you were near that, you probably already qualify for Medicaid. Assuming they keep the "public option" (more on that in a second), chances are they'll end up contracting it out to whichever private insurance company doles out the largest bribe, err, campaign contribution.

 

Second, the public-private-partnership option will probably die in the conference bill. Leaving us with the Federal mandate to buy insurance from the companies they've been telling us are eeeeevil for the last 20 years. If you don't buy the insurance, you get fined, and if you don't pay the fine, men with guns will come kidnap and/or kill you. If you do buy it, the insurance companies make lots of money with which to bribe donate to politicians in return for giving them captive customers.

 

Either way, the politicians and their industry cronies will be making money. That is what they are taking into consideration. They don't give a sh*t about you.

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buffalosoulj4h20

 

These are the biggies right there.

These elements expliot the free market, that is supply is driven by demand.

The demand is obviously lower cost of insurance.

What's not so obvious, apparently, is that the way the system currently exists, it HINERS the free market, and demand is stifled by undue, and frankly ridiculous, regulation.

If you can't buy insurance from who you want, the Only Game In Town can charge whatever the hell they please without worrying that you'll go elsewhere to get your insurance. BECAUSE YOU CAN'T.

 

The insurance companies are not affordable, people are out of work. Just because you don't want health insurance doesn't mean your choice and all the other right wing nuts choice dictates what everybody wants. 74% want the public option including me. And no theres nuthin I can learn from you idiots because all you have is conspitracy stories and right wing propaganda. Just bend down, the insurance companies is about to give you what you want.

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ghost of delete key

 

You're a selfish ass GODK, Government mandated health care is consideration for the people like myself who cannot afford health care. I'm having a huge amount of problem with my shoulder which is extremely expensive when it comes down to treating it, and with the way HMOs and health insurance companies capitaliE on peoples health is absolutely disgusting, it's inhumane.

BWAHAHAHAHAHAAAaaaaaaaa

 

Consideration? You think the politicians are even considering you?! If so, here are two things for you to... consider:

 

First, the "public option" isn't even free. You have to pay for it unless you're slightly past the poverty line (I forget the number now because they keep changing the thing), but if you were near that, you probably already qualify for Medicaid. Assuming they keep the "public option" (more on that in a second), chances are they'll end up contracting it out to whichever private insurance company doles out the largest bribe, err, campaign contribution.

 

Second, the public-private-partnership option will probably die in the conference bill. Leaving us with the Federal mandate to buy insurance from the companies they've been telling us are eeeeevil for the last 20 years. If you don't buy the insurance, you get fined, and if you don't pay the fine, men with guns will come kidnap and/or kill you. If you do buy it, the insurance companies make lots of money with which to bribe donate to politicians in return for giving them captive customers.

 

Either way, the politicians and their industry cronies will be making money. That is what they are taking into consideration. They don't give a sh*t about you.

ILLY!!!!

Long time no see, old friend!

 

Hey, you just summed it up nicely in a nutshell.

If I had any money, I'd hire you as my writer in a minute.

 

I don't know if any of you know Irv Homer, but he always said,

"If you want to know the reason for anything, follow the money trail."

 

Seriously. Follow the money trail.

Our (US)government is currently saturated with despots who are selling us out and down the river.

Our freedoms are being bought and sold on the House floor while Pelosi beams her botox grin showing her glee at having stayed up late building a fine massive wooden horse that we're all expected to accept with undying gratitude.

 

You don't want to see what pops out of that horse in the dead of night.

 

 

<edit>

buffalosoulj4h20 is too long to waste my time writing, so I'll just shorten it to BS.

 

 

The insurance companies are not affordable, people are out of work.

...and this is the point at which you shut off your eyes and ears.

At least you got that much.

 

 

Just because you don't want health insurance doesn't mean your choice and all the other right wing nuts choice dictates what everybody wants.

Actually, yes it does.

 

 

74% want the public option including me.

That's patent misinformation.

But as we see, you'll swallow any salty load shot down your throat by your beloved leftists.

 

 

And no theres nuthin I can learn from you idiots because all you have is conspitracy stories and right wing propaganda.

No, there's nuthin you can learn from us "idiots " because you have only two brain cells; one doesn't work, and the other doesn't care.

 

 

Just bend down, the insurance companies is about to give you what you want.

That sentense doesn't even make any logical OR witty sense, but assuming it did...

the government will see to that.

 

 

 

Edited by ghost of delete key

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illspirit

 

There has to be either a way to get private insurers to cover these "preexisting conditions" they use to deny people coverage.

Why? If it's a pre-existing condition, it, by definition, can't be insured against. It's also mathematically impossible.

 

Let's say I run a "Headache Insurance" company/co-op/whatever, have 8 customers, and a bottle of aspirin costs $8. If statistics indicated there was a 1 in 8 chance of a person getting a headache in a month, I could charge each member $1 a month to buy the one who gets a headache a bottle of aspirin ($8 income, $0-$8 spending).

 

That's how insurance is supposed to work since it's a collective risk pool.

 

If, however, the government were to step in and tell me I can't deny people with pre-existing headaches coverage and that I can't raise premiums, it would take only one person with a pre-existing headache signing up to push me underwater if one of my other members happens to get one ($9in, $16 out). If two people with headaches sign up, I go underwater immediately ($10 in, $16-$24 out). If all my regular members quit because they know they can save money by signing up after they get a headache, I lose $7 every time someone with a headache signs up.

 

 

ILLY!!!!

Long time no see, old friend!

 

Hey, you just summed it up nicely in a nutshell.

If I had any money, I'd hire you as my writer in a minute.

If you had any money to hire me, I'd tell you to buy precious metals of some sort to barter with instead so there's less to tax to pay for this monstrosity. tounge.gif

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ghost of delete key
If you had any money to hire me, I'd tell you to buy precious metals of some sort to barter with instead so there's less to tax to pay for this monstrosity. tounge.gif

I got a bunch of tinfoil lining my hat... I could get something for that, right?

 

 

tounge.gif

 

btw, nice explanation of the risk pool thingy.

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Ronnyboy

I see this as a great thing in our country. Lord knows our government would never have the time, money, or care to make health care affordable. So this is the other way to do it.

 

Government health care is great, but only as a fall back. It's kind of like how you pay for insurance, in case anything goes wrong. All of a sudden you lose your job, money and insurance. Next thing you know, you got a broken arm. Luckily, the government has a fall back for you to take care of yourself. My mom right now has no health care and she's getting sick every other day, this makes me feel good to know she can get help in the future if it gets worse.

 

I see no problem with a back up plan for every American.

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buffalosoulj4h20

Except these aren't headaches we're talking about. They are companies that are saying that rape and demostic violence are ''pre-existing conditions''. Even when a new born child was born he was considered having a ''pre-existing condition''...being born fat. This is much more than a bunch of headaches and asprin.

Edited by buffalosoulj4h20

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illspirit

 

Except these aren't headaches we're talking about. They are companies that are saying that rape and demostic violence is a ''pre-existing condition''. Even when a new born child was born he was considered having a ''pre-existing condition''...being born fat. This is much more than a bunch of headaches and asprin.

They're not pre-existing conditions, but they increase risk factors. The only response to this is to either increase premiums on everybody to cover the risk or to not take the risk. Either way, someone will be screaming that it's not "fair." The insurers just decide whether they want the collective majority of customers or a handful of denied applicants screaming. Or, in other words, they're doing it for the "common good."

 

This differs from the collectivist government option how exactly? When faces with this same choice, government will either have to deny care or raise taxes.

 

(And lest you assume I like insurance companies or something, I think the modern concept of "health insurance" is a Ponzi scheme no matter which way you slice it. Public, private, or otherwise.)

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Mainland Marauder
There has to be either a way to get private insurers to cover these "preexisting conditions" they use to deny people coverage.

Why? If it's a pre-existing condition, it, by definition, can't be insured against. It's also mathematically impossible.

 

Let's say I run a "Headache Insurance" company/co-op/whatever, have 8 customers, and a bottle of aspirin costs $8. If statistics indicated there was a 1 in 8 chance of a person getting a headache in a month, I could charge each member $1 a month to buy the one who gets a headache a bottle of aspirin ($8 income, $0-$8 spending).

OK, then maybe for them insurance isn't the best way to go. So if the government offers them insurance, they are not competing with private industry who has told them they are exercising their right to refuse service.

 

Or do we just tell them sorry, you're f*cked, better luck next life?

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buffalosoulj4h20

 

Except these aren't headaches we're talking about. They are companies that are saying that rape and demostic violence is a ''pre-existing condition''. Even when a new born child was born he was considered having a ''pre-existing condition''...being born fat. This is much more than a bunch of headaches and asprin.

They're not pre-existing conditions, but they increase risk factors. The only response to this is to either increase premiums on everybody to cover the risk or to not take the risk. Either way, someone will be screaming that it's not "fair." The insurers just decide whether they want the collective majority of customers or a handful of denied applicants screaming. Or, in other words, they're doing it for the "common good."

 

This differs from the collectivist government option how exactly? When faces with this same choice, government will either have to deny care or raise taxes.

 

(And lest you assume I like insurance companies or something, I think the modern concept of "health insurance" is a Ponzi scheme no matter which way you slice it. Public, private, or otherwise.)

So what's you're solution? That no one should have insurance at all? Obviously with Medicare nobody is having a problem, which is a government runned plan. There are 47 million people uninsured, is the option to just say f*ck them and move on? Not taking any action is not a solution at all.

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Pumpkin Zone
Second, the public-private-partnership option will probably die in the conference bill. Leaving us with the Federal mandate to buy insurance from the companies they've been telling us are eeeeevil for the last 20 years. If you don't buy the insurance, you get fined, and if you don't pay the fine, men with guns will come kidnap and/or kill you. If you do buy it, the insurance companies make lots of money with which to bribe donate to politicians in return for giving them captive customers.

What the f*ck are you talking about, man?

 

You and your fear mongering bullsh*t is just stupid.

 

Okay, assume I want to believe you. Assume that, for some reason, I want to believe that these 'evil corporations' and 'evil government operatives' will come and kidnap me in the night if I don't pay.

 

Where is your proof?

 

The government doesn't do that sh*t, and if you do believe that then you seriously need to relook at your opinions on things.

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Jesus'En'Hitler420

 

These are the biggies right there.

These elements expliot the free market, that is supply is driven by demand.

The demand is obviously lower cost of insurance.

What's not so obvious, apparently, is that the way the system currently exists, it HINERS the free market, and demand is stifled by undue, and frankly ridiculous, regulation.

If you can't buy insurance from who you want, the Only Game In Town can charge whatever the hell they please without worrying that you'll go elsewhere to get your insurance. BECAUSE YOU CAN'T.

 

The insurance companies are not affordable, people are out of work. Just because you don't want health insurance doesn't mean your choice and all the other right wing nuts choice dictates what everybody wants. 74% want the public option including me. And no theres nuthin I can learn from you idiots because all you have is conspitracy stories and right wing propaganda. Just bend down, the insurance companies is about to give you what you want.

Umm, what? Incase you haven't been listening to anything, less than 20% of Americans even consider health care reform an issue. People are more worried about what the dollar is going to be worth and the economy, neither of which are getting any better which in turn is giving your pathetic argument an excuse because it makes the politicians "sound like they care", because people won't have any f*cking money to afford healthcare.

 

Don't even try to make an excuse for a down economy being a good reason to pass healthcare, you're really making yourself look stupid because it's inherently backwards.

 

Futhermore, the only reason anyone supports this because they feel compassion, however, if any of you took time to read the legislation, read about the dozens upon dozens of new beuracracies that are going to be created, the taxes upon taxes that are going to be levied on businesses, taxes on people who already have insurance, taxes on people who choose not to get any insurance (Private/Public, doesn't matter), the mandates on private practices like eating soda or chips, owning guns, doing anything deemed "harmful" to your body (Get ready for rock climbers to be taxed, or any other "dangerous" hobby).

 

THEN NONE OF YOU WOULD VOTE YES TO THIS GARBAGE

 

Hey, just aslong as Barrack and Nancy call it "healthcare" reform, then it's all good, isn't it?

Edited by Jesus'En'Hitler420

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illspirit

 

OK, then maybe for them insurance isn't the best way to go. So if the government offers them insurance, they are not competing with private industry who has told them they are exercising their right to refuse service.

 

Or do we just tell them sorry, you're f*cked, better luck next life?

Well, being that I'm a borderline anarchist, I would tell the rich bastards (billionaires like Soros, all the millionaires in Congress/Hollywood/etc..) who claim to care so much to spend a fraction of their own money to open free clinics for the poor and quit sending men in state-issued costumes to steal money from me at gun point to buy "healthcare" for people who make 10 times as much money as I do. E.G., SCHIP, which was supposed to provide health insurance to poor children now covers families and single adults making up to $72,000/year. tounge.gif

 

But on a more pragmatic note, anything we could do will have unintended consequences. The Feds already have Medicaid and SCHIP for the "poor" and Medicare for the old. They don't pay the full price though, and this has ended up driving up costs for everyone else to make up the difference. They could simply expand Medicaid or whatever to cover more people, and it would be cheaper than the mess they're about to make. They could start opening government run hospitals too, which, while I would be against, would still be cheaper. Either way though, whenever you add more risk (demand) to the pool (supply), costs will rise.

 

Unless you could increase the supply of, say, doctors, but nobody seems to be addressing that. Congress could use their magical interstate commerce powers to break up the AMA monopoly and allow more doctors to be licensed so there would be more competition for services. The AMA has too many lobbyists for that to happen. What they're about to do now will cause less people to want to become doctors.

 

There's lots of small things they could do to drive prices down-- possibly to the point where you wouldn't need "insurance" --but politicians have tunnel vision when it comes to hot topics they can use for getting re-elected and getting bribes from industries. The system is burning down around them, but they can't see it because they're too focused on "insurance."

 

 

 

So what's you're solution? That no one should have insurance at all? Obviously with Medicare nobody is having a problem, which is a government runned plan. There are 47 million people uninsured, is the option to just say f*ck them and move on? Not taking any action is not a solution at all.

Generally speaking, yes, except maybe catastrophic insurance. The way everybody uses it now to essentially pre-pay for things they know will happen and expecting it to be cheaper is insane (like I said here). Costs would come down if people actually saw the prices and didn't assume somebody else (be it an insurance company or the gov) will magically pay for it.

 

As for Medicare, umm, it's running a deficit now, and has a $74 trillion unfunded liability. That is not sustainable. You are right that doing nothing isn't an option, but throwing even more money into a giant hole is even worse. All the government health care in the world won't mean a damn thing if the dollar crashes due to too much debt.

 

 

What the f*ck are you talking about, man?

 

You and your fear mongering bullsh*t is just stupid.

 

Okay, assume I want to believe you. Assume that, for some reason, I want to believe that these 'evil corporations' and 'evil government operatives' will come and kidnap me in the night if I don't pay.

 

Where is your proof?

 

The government doesn't do that sh*t, and if you do believe that then you seriously need to relook at your opinions on things.

Will a letter from the Joint Committee on Taxation do?

 

 

Prosecution is authorized under the Code for a variety of offenses.  Depending on the level of the noncompliance, the following penalties could apply to an individual:

 

• Section 7203 – misdemeanor willful failure to pay is punishable by a fine of up to $25,000 and/or imprisonment of up to one year.

 

• Section 7201 – felony willful evasion is punishable by a fine of up to $250,000 and/or imprisonment of up to five years.”

 

In other words, don't pay, they send IRS agents. With guns. To drag you away. How else did you expect them to enforce a mandate?

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Jesus'En'Hitler420

 

 

 

What the f*ck are you talking about, man?

 

You and your fear mongering bullsh*t is just stupid.

 

Okay, assume I want to believe you. Assume that, for some reason, I want to believe that these 'evil corporations' and 'evil government operatives' will come and kidnap me in the night if I don't pay.

 

Where is your proof?

 

The government doesn't do that sh*t, and if you do believe that then you seriously need to relook at your opinions on things.

Will a letter from the Joint Committee on Taxation do?

 

 

It's sad but you have clear proof right there, and I'm willing to bet everyone here who has stuck up for this legislation is going to either completely ignore it, or come up with some pathetic excuse for it. I hope you all feel really happy that this passed the the house of reps, by a measly 5 votes. (The subject line of the topic title is wrong, it passed 220-215)

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ghost of delete key

 

Second, the public-private-partnership option will probably die in the conference bill. Leaving us with the Federal mandate to buy insurance from the companies they've been telling us are eeeeevil for the last 20 years. If you don't buy the insurance, you get fined, and if you don't pay the fine, men with guns will come kidnap and/or kill you. If you do buy it, the insurance companies make lots of money with which to bribe donate to politicians in return for giving them captive customers.

What the f*ck are you talking about, man?

 

You and your fear mongering bullsh*t is just stupid.

 

Okay, assume I want to believe you. Assume that, for some reason, I want to believe that these 'evil corporations' and 'evil government operatives' will come and kidnap me in the night if I don't pay.

 

Where is your proof?

 

The government doesn't do that sh*t, and if you do believe that then you seriously need to relook at your opinions on things.

"assume I want to believe you"?!

You see, we're at the crux of the problem right here. You've prejudicially made up your mind about the issue, causing you to fail to see the greater set of facts that bear therein.

 

This is also indicated by the fact that you've missed some obvious comic exaggeration to illustrate a point. I'm seeing a trend here, do you?

 

You ask for proof... the proof you seek is buried in the 1000+ pages of the bill which Pelosi duplicitously kept from the promised 72-hour public review. (The fact that they do this sh*t under the table and behind our backs and break publicly stated promises in the doing should raise some serious red flags for you, if you're paying attention and not busy pre-judging.)

And that proof you seek, buried in the bill, is explicit language that provides for severe fines and/or imprisonment for those who fail to obtain insurance according to the (proposed) law. The same goes for employers, who will find that it will be far cheaper, and ultimately safer to close their shops rather than fall into major debt by taking the hit. The law is structured such that either you pay more than you can afford, or else you'll pay even more than that.

 

But since you're so well informed, I'm sure you were aware of all this, yes?

 

So in light of this, how can anyone call someone such as myself, being extremely concerned about this set of circumstances, a "paranoid crackpot" and not expose themselves as fools and/or idiots themselves?

 

This is no joke, and those who ignorantly support this sort of mafioso governance will wind up with a huge surprise when the sh*t actually hits the proverbial fan.

 

 

 

So what's you're solution? That no one should have insurance at all? Obviously with Medicare nobody is having a problem, which is a government runned plan. There are 47 million people uninsured, is the option to just say f*ck them and move on? Not taking any action is not a solution at all.

You can't even dribble the ball, yet you keep trying to shoot hoops? You have no grasp of any of this, dude.

 

First of all, 47 million is a greatly doctored number, if you'll excuse the pun. It is generated by the pushers of universal care to prop up their scarecrow and it includes, among other invalid factors, more than 12 million illegal aliens, whom it should be obvious do not qualify for healthcare insurance or any other benefits according to US law... which is purposely not enforced. Maybe you're one of them?

 

You must first understand that healthcare insurance is a service, the same as a maid service, or a car wash or Netflix. IT IS NOT A CONSTITUTIONAL RIGHT, it falls nowhere whatsoever in that category.

If you sincerely believe otherwise, start your own grassroots referendum, lets get a Constitutional Convention started, and see about amending the Constitution accordingly.

If we should be guaranteed a socialist-Utopian universal healthcare plan as an entitlement, then where is my guaranteed universal maid service? I say Netflix for everyone, whether you like it or not.

 

Seeing that it is a paid service, it is therefore painfully obvious (if you can actually think that hard) that it is YOUR RESPONSIBILITY to procure your own insurance, and more importantly, to take proper care of yourself to minimize the overall load on the system as a whole. If we all quit stuffing ourselves with Twinkies and dope, this will help statistical illness rates to come down and healthcare costs will necessarily follow suit.

 

To have the government step in and force a "public option" down our gullets is then a clear abrogation of our rights and should not, nay, MUST NOT be allowed... but more to the point, the issue is not really about your health, it is all just a clever foil to extend power and control.

To understand THAT more completely, you need then to understand just what ideologies drive those in government responsible for this mess.

 

That however, seems a fruitless endeavor, as you clearly share those socialist agendas. You want me and everyone else to ensure your personal security, instead of taking the responsibility to ensure it for yourself.

 

So until you get a little better clue, and less of a troll streak, how about giving your post button a rest, hmm?

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