RPG Influences

[ScratchCard]

Something that came to mind.

 

In SA, we had all these RPG influences: Weapon skills, driving skills, muscle, body fat, stamina etc.

 

Now in IV, it's all gone.

 

I would really like to see this back. It's not all that unrealistic that you get fat if you eat too much, get stronger if you train a lot, and of course your driving skills go up if you race a lot. But the old features from SA aren't all:

 

• Quicker fighting: The more people you beat up, the 'faster' you'll be able to counter and counterattack
• Or even one time only awards, which don't allow improvement: For example, use +- 50 health packages and get 33% more health out of it after that
• If some kind of loan sharking sidemission is in the game, the more you terrorize your 'clients', the pay will slowly increase

That's all that comes to mind right now, but that's just because I/we don't know any of the NeXt game's features yet. What I do know, however, is that I want these RPG influences back. Gives you something to do, and.. just think of the multiplayer possibilities.

 

Opinions?

[mkey82]

It's not unrealistic at all you get stronger, more skilled with guns, better driver, more lungs capacity and such. The only problem is the time span during which changes take effect, if it's too fast then it's "unrealistic" if it's too slow then it just isn't interesting.

[ScratchCard]

The only problem is the time span during which changes take effect, if it's too fast then it's "unrealistic" if it's too slow then it just isn't interesting.

Which is why it should be somewhere in between. A little slower then in SA, and a little faster then in RL.

[mkey82]

Well, probably the best solution would be to to assess how long does the average gamer spend playing through GTA. Let's say, it's usually 50 hours then it would be OK if you get max out your skills after some 40 hours, but then again this depends on how much time does one invest in the said activity. Those who shoot a lot or those who drive bikes more often then cars would reach the climax sooner.

 

But the weight/muscle gaining thing can't be slowed down a lot, if you consider you had various mission conditions in SA. I guess it would be pretty tiresome if you had to gain or lose some weight to be able to access one thing or the other and that took 50 hours to do.

[ScratchCard]

The stat requirement for missions should be removed, other then that I kinda agree with your post.

[K^2]

Driving, flying, and aiming skills should not be there. That should be player's skill, not some number.

 

Other stats, though, like maximum health, stamina, lung capacity, etc, I don't mind. They make sense in many ways, show character's progression, and don't get in the way.

[mkey82]

Driving, flying, and aiming skills should not be there. That should be player's skill, not some number.

I disagree. Wholeheartedly.

 

There is number of things one can not control directly. For instance, on higher skill levels for an msg the character could reload faster, have a more narrow reticule (if some sort of recoil was present), could maybe carry more ammo, could shoot from various positions, could have the blind fire mode locked for higher skill levels, could shoot while moving (like in SA). These have nothing to do with player's skill.

 

With driving also, the car handling can improve slightly on higher levels and you can become a bit tougher to be shaken off from the bike.

 

Also, what's wrong with stat conditioned missions? Those were always optional and they do add to diversity.

[TheBruceter]

I didn't like it that much.. Only part i liked was training up on the guns giving you dual wielding. The gym, eating and stuff just felt as though it was too much. Like needing to be a certain weight/size for people to like you etc, too much. This ain't the sims.

(noticed IV had it a wee bit with comments about clothes and your car)

[ScratchCard]

Also, what's wrong with stat conditioned missions? Those were always optional and they do add to diversity.

I meant missions such as those San Fierro missions for Woozie in SA, where you need a certain lung capacity before you can complete them. They were not optional, and definetly not diverse.

[Akavari]

Like anyone cares about diversity. I'm glad they removed all the annoying stats in GTA IV, where you have to eat and work out constantly. If you're someone who doesn't enjoy working out and training then it just becomes an obstacle for your fun. The skill levels shouldn't exist either; I remember once you got max firearms you got instant head shots, which totally took the fun out of firefights. Driving/flying schools are stupid and unrealistic, I mean you don't see mass murderers going to the DMV often, this ain't Gran f*cking Turismo or something. Driving and flying, as said by some other guy, should rely on the player's skill only.

The only thing I see making a real comeback in the next GTA is working out, because many people thought it was cool and entertaining. Although I don't think it should make you look over muscular, just slightly enhance all of your actions like fighting, climbing, running and swimming.

[DanManUtd]

 

Like anyone cares about diversity.

 

Besides the fact loads of people whinged about the linear missions.

 

 

If you're someone who doesn't enjoy working out and training then it just becomes an obstacle for your fun.

 

Hardly, the majority of the stats were optional, so they shouldn't have got in the way (except like the Woozie mission).

 

 

Driving/flying schools are stupid and unrealistic,

 

You mean you don't get driving/flying schools in real life?

 

 

I mean you don't see mass murderers going to the DMV often, this ain't Gran f*cking Turismo or something.

 

Since when have the driving instructors known you're a mass murderer? Besides, are you saying that murderers don't drive?

 

 

Other than that, I agree with most of that post.

 

 

 

 

[kietotheworld]

Agreed, GTA needs more RPG.

 

This RPG

[mkey82]

 

Also, what's wrong with stat conditioned missions? Those were always optional and they do add to diversity.

I meant missions such as those San Fierro missions for Woozie in SA, where you need a certain lung capacity before you can complete them. They were not optional, and definetly not diverse.

Well, it took some sneaking around while diving. Like, going under water. Did you have this in GTAIV? No. does diving make SA more diverse then GTAIV? Yes.

 

It's one to say you didn't like the concept and I will not dispute that, but it's just silly to say it didn't bring diversity.

 

GTAIV:

Drive - shoot - Drive some more

 

SA:

Drive - shoot - Drive

Drive - Dive - Shoot - Whatever

 

See, more diversity.

 

 

Like anyone cares about diversity. I'm glad they removed all the annoying stats in GTA IV, where you have to eat and work out constantly.

lol yeah, so the phone rings ALL THE f*ckING time. Much better, indeed. Also, you did NOT have to work out nor eat. If you didn't want to get the hunger messages, it was enough to stuff yourself once in a while. Working out generated no messages, that is until you wanted to learn some new moves at the gym.

 

So, the the phone rings in IV every 5-10 minutes (especially later in the game) and you "had" to eat in SA every few days. Yeah, extremely tiresome /sarcasm

[K^2]

 

Driving, flying, and aiming skills should not be there. That should be player's skill, not some number.

I disagree. Wholeheartedly.

 

There is number of things one can not control directly. For instance, on higher skill levels for an msg the character could reload faster, have a more narrow reticule (if some sort of recoil was present), could maybe carry more ammo, could shoot from various positions, could have the blind fire mode locked for higher skill levels, could shoot while moving (like in SA). These have nothing to do with player's skill.

General weapons skills, sure. I agree on reload time, blind firing, and ability to carry more ammo. These can be based on the weapon skill.

 

But not aiming. Recoil should cause the cross hair to actually jump, forcing player to control recoil, just like with a real weapon. And the size of the reticles should depend only on mechanical bullet spread. None of this should be a player stat. It should be weapon stats and physics.

 

 

With driving also, the car handling can improve slightly on higher levels

And when you get into the real car, does the traction improve with your own driving skill?

 

Driving and flying skills are most moronic additions to San Andreas by far. You either can drive/fly, or you can't. Game shouldn't be helping you or handicapping you because of some number associated with how long you've been driving. If you've been driving long enough, your own skill should have improved. If it hasn't, then you haven't been practicing enough, and you shouldn't deserve a stat increase either way.

 

 

Also, what's wrong with stat conditioned missions? Those were always optional and they do add to diversity.

If they were all optional, we wouldn't be having this discussion. Having to fill lung capacity to do a mission for Wu Zi was the most boring waste of time in the whole game.

 

 

Well, it took some sneaking around while diving. Like, going under water. Did you have this in GTAIV? No. does diving make SA more diverse then GTAIV? Yes.

No, it makes a game more linear and scripted. If they gave me a ship, and just told me that I need to get on it, leaving implementation up to me, it'd be a much better mission.

 

I'd have a choice of sneaking by under water, speeding by on a fast boat, fighting my way through on a boat with some guns, quietly parachuting down from a plane, or using an attack helicopter to clear the path and land on the ship.

 

Now that would be diversity.

Edited October 15, 2009 by K^2

[mkey82]

 

But not aiming. Recoil should cause the cross hair to actually jump, forcing player to control recoil, just like with a real weapon. And the size of the reticles should depend only on mechanical bullet spread. None of this should be a player stat. It should be weapon stats and physics.

Well, sorry I assumed an experienced gunfighter will handle an SMG with a lot more expertise then a novice /sarcasm In regard to recoil as well. Or is ti just "either you can fire an SMG or you can't"?

 

 

And when you get into the real car, does the traction improve with your own driving skill? 

So, you are driving now equally well as the first time you sat in your car? /sarcasm No skill whatsoever required? This can be simulated with car handling, just to give you a hint that something is going on. Since this is a game, for me it's passable.

 

 

If they were all optional, we wouldn't be having this discussion. Having to fill lung capacity to do a mission for Wu Zi was the most boring waste of time in the whole game.

To make things even more funny, I didn't even know there was a switch on that mission for the first three times I finished the game. Yeah, ultra difficult condition, boring as hell. And no, I never did collect those bloody oysters.

 

 

No, it makes a game more linear and scripted.

In comparison to what? Yes, more scripted, but there is MORE MISSION TYPE VARIETY. I really cant make this any clearer. Yes, GTA missions are scripted.

 

 

I'd have a choice of sneaking by under water, speeding by on a fast boat, fighting my way through on a boat with some guns, quietly parachuting down from a plane, or using an attack helicopter to clear the path and land on the ship.

You did all of that in other missions. And yes, SA is the GTA with the most loosely scripted set of missions up to date.

 

 

Now that would be diversity.

We're still talking about GTA here?

[K^2]

 

So, you are driving now equally well as the first time you sat in your car?

No. But I also drive a vehicle in any game better after some time than the first time I tried it in that particular game. You don't need a stat. All you need is your own real skill.

 

Well, sorry I assumed an experienced gunfighter will handle an SMG with a lot more expertise then a novice /sarcasm In regard to recoil as well.

And again, if the cross hair actually recoils, it will take you a lot of practice to manage recoil while using SMG. Real skill, not a stat.

 

Stats should ONLY be used when real skill cannot be measured. You cannot measure strength, health, or stamina of the player. You have to use stats. But the measure of player's driving, flying, or aiming skills is right there in the performance.

 

All that stats do when they mask over real skill is handicap skilled players and augment unskilled players. That levels the playing field, sure, but it also means that no skill is involved in playing the game. All you have to do is grind your stats, and then the game becomes very easy. Too easy for anyone with real skill. So whats the point of the game then? Story? Cinematics? Why don't you just watch a movie then?

[mkey82]

Handicap? What a load of bollocks. You play a SP game and level up as you go. If you drive mostly cars, you het *slightly* more skilled while doing so. If you prefer one type of weapon, you get to master if faster. And this makes sense, as your character develops. You could say that his reaction to your reaction improves.

 

In an SP game who gets hurt? Yeah, that's right, nobody.

[K^2]

SA cars drove like somebody poured oil under the tires with zero driving stat. That's what I call f*cking handicap, buddy. And once your stat was at 100%, cars stuck to ground like they were on rails. Even a monkey could drive a car with 100% driving stat. Where is the skill?

 

The only time I felt that my skill had anything to do with how the car corners was when the driving stat was at about 50%. Bellow or above that, it depended more on the stat than on my own performance. In a game that's inherently focused on driving, that is all kinds of wrong.

 

And guess what, if they took out all the cars and guns from the game completely, nobody would be hurt either. But nobody would buy that game either.

[bobgtafan]

SA cars drove like somebody poured oil under the tires with zero driving stat. That's what I call f*cking handicap, buddy. And once your stat was at 100%, cars stuck to ground like they were on rails. Even a monkey could drive a car with 100% driving stat. Where is the skill?

 

The only time I felt that my skill had anything to do with how the car corners was when the driving stat was at about 50%. Bellow or above that, it depended more on the stat than on my own performance. In a game that's inherently focused on driving, that is all kinds of wrong.

 

And guess what, if they took out all the cars and guns from the game completely, nobody would be hurt either. But nobody would buy that game either.

Wait dude your saying that because a last generation game had unrealstic handling that thus this next generation game with a whole new engine will act in the same way when applying skill? That's a very bad argument. Also face it in real life when you use something you gain skill everytime. That being said I see no reason why GTA can't re-add RPG elements. But I do beleive they should be fully optional. You shouldn't have to increase your lung capacity for a mission or improve your shooting skills. That's dumb.

[Samcro]

If I remember correctly, you didn't exactly have to eat or workout constantly in SA like many exaggerate. When I was playing your build stayed high for a long time once it got to a certain point. You really didn't need to eat everyday either.

 

The RPG elements were fun and beat any stupid friend activity you can do in GTAIV - with the exception of shooting pool and drinking. Seeing a drunk Niko shout "Yellow car" to hail a taxi never gets old. While not perfect the skill level system in SA was a good idea.

[K^2]

 

Wait dude your saying that because a last generation game had unrealstic handling that thus this next generation game with a whole new engine will act in the same way when applying skill?

Uh... No. Did you notice the part where I mentioned that at 50% stat the cars handled alright?

 

At low stats, handling was unrealistically bad. At high stats, it was unrealistically good. Yes, the driving dynamics was never 100% reality-like anyways, but it worked pretty well on its own.

 

In order to put skill stats into IV, they'd need to do the same thing as in SA. They'd have to ruin traction at low stats, and increase it past reasonable for high stats. What else can you do affect "handling"? This will feel just as unnatural in IV as it did in SA, and it would suck even worse because SA driving wasn't realistic to begin with, so you didn't notice it quite as much.

 

And if you really need some traction boost from the stat to be able to drive, just go play Mario Cart, and leave GTA for grownups.

[bobgtafan]

Wait dude your saying that because a last generation game had unrealstic handling that thus this next generation game with a whole new engine will act in the same way when applying skill?

Uh... No. Did you notice the part where I mentioned that at 50% stat the cars handled alright?

 

At low stats, handling was unrealistically bad. At high stats, it was unrealistically good. Yes, the driving dynamics was never 100% reality-like anyways, but it worked pretty well on its own.

 

In order to put skill stats into IV, they'd need to do the same thing as in SA. They'd have to ruin traction at low stats, and increase it past reasonable for high stats. What else can you do affect "handling"? This will feel just as unnatural in IV as it did in SA, and it would suck even worse because SA driving wasn't realistic to begin with, so you didn't notice it quite as much.

 

And if you really need some traction boost from the stat to be able to drive, just go play Mario Cart, and leave GTA for grownups.

 

SA cars drove like somebody poured oil under the tires with zero driving stat. That's what I call f*cking handicap, buddy

 

SA driving wasn't realistic to begin with, so you didn't notice it quite as much.

 

Contridicting yourself?

 

Anyway the driving stat could.

 

A. Cosmetic. So the player could drive with one hand like in Scarface or Saint's Row.

B. Weapons. The player has improved aim while driving and the number of weapons that could be used increases

C. Handling. This would be the most controvestal but some people would like it.

 

Regardless the driving stat is more than handling. That being said I would like to here your final arguement on why stats wouldn't be a good thing. I see no downside.

[K^2]

I have already presented my argument. When you replace a real player skill with a stat, or even simply mask over it, you reduce complexity of the game. Shooting and driving are big parts of where challenge of GTA comes from. When you mask over these with grindable skills, you take away the challenge. A game with no challenge is not a game at all.

 

Games that are all about grinding experience, id est MMO RPGs, are a different story. If you were to suggest a GTA-universe MMO RPG, I wouldn't have a single argument against stats.

 

Contridicting yourself?

Not at all. It would become more noticeable in IV. Doesn't mean it wasn't bad to begin with. There is no contradiction between two statements.

 

If you keep track of the conversation, I wouldn't need to re-state things I've already said. It will save both of us times.

 

Edit: I have absolutely nothing against cosmetic stats. Note that topic has been driving stat in SA, which has affected only handling.

[mkey82]

 

Where is the skill?

 

 

SA cars drove like somebody poured oil under the tires with zero driving stat.

This is a perfect opportunity to show off your skill. Crappy ice rides, just like in GTAIV. And yes, you are really exaggerating. But I mean really.

 

 

If I remember correctly, you didn't exactly have to eat or workout constantly in SA like many exaggerate. When I was playing your build stayed high for a long time once it got to a certain point. You really didn't need to eat everyday either.

At least someone is not spouting bullsh*t all over the place. Yeah, eating was something you did once in a while, not a big deal.

Edited October 16, 2009 by mkey82

[LUNATICBRAND0N]

It would be nice to have stats but it should start you off average at everything, not bad.

[K^2]

 

This is a perfect opportunity to show off your skill. Crappy ice rides, just like in GTAIV.

GTA IV cars drive very close to what real cars drive like. Have you ever driven a real car at high speeds on anything other than a highway? The cornering and suspension dynamics are almost spot on. If you don't have a license and a place to try this out, I suggest comparing to Gran Turismo or Live for Speed. Keep in mind, though, that the cars in these games are sports tuned, so the suspension will be a lot stiffer, and you'll get a bit more traction out of tires. (I noticed similar difference on my Tiburon with Sports vs Winter tires.) Still, general principles hold. If you try to corner like you would in III-era GTAs, you'll promptly crash.

 

And if the cars performed consistently bad in SA, I wouldn't complain too much about it. It's a game, I expect it to have quirks. (I did adjust to PC version of SR2 driving, and that's a truly terrible combination of clunky physics and bad controls.) You are absolutely right about using skill to counter these issues. With a bit of patience and practice, you learn to anticipate the slides, and keep the car under control through them, or avoid them all together. Problem is, you start out with this handicapped driving, but then if you aren't bothering to learn, and keep failing the driving missions, as you drive more, the game makes it easier for you, up to the point where at 100% you don't have to worry about slipping at all. So what difference does the skill make? How quickly I can get through driving missions on the first island, before I get my driving skill to 100%?

 

The really good missions in SA were the ones like Supply Lines. Yes, it may have been very annoying to some people, but everyone managed to get through it by learning to fly the damn plane properly. Not by grinding the skill until you can just point it in direction you want it to go. Don't you feel a sense of achievement when you complete a mission like that? Races, in contrast, which I really liked in Vice, left no lasting impression. Yes, they were hard if you did them early in the game. But after I got all gold in driving school, they became way too easy. There was no challenge in completing them.

 

 

Yeah, eating was something you did once in a while, not a big deal.

I didn't mind that part, actually. I did think it was a useless gimmick, other than as health replenisher. But it rarely got in the way. The only time it actually annoyed me was when I was grinding pilot skill so that I can get the pilot's license and not have to climb over fences to grab a plane. Now there is another useless, annoying use of a stat. Pilot stat to open the gates to the airport... And how come SF planes were locked anyways until you did flight school, but not LS or LV planes? That was just silly. But I digress.

 

Same for the muscle/fat stats. Yes, they effected a few other things, but in minor ways. Mostly, they were just cosmetic. And I have nothing against cosmetic stats. I'm probably going to just ignore them, but if some people get a kick out of watching character get fat if you eat too many cheeseburgers, why not?

 

And, of course, everything that the player isn't directly responsible for can be a stat. The only nuance here is whether it should be a fixed world/object stat, or experience-based character stat. For example, bullet spread and kickback should be stats associated with particular weapons, and should not change (unless there is a weapon upgrade). Reload time, on the other hand, can easily be an experience-based character stat. Vehicle handling should be a stat of a particular vehicle, and again, adjustable only via upgrades (tires, suspension, etc.) Time it takes to hotwire a car can be a character stat. And so on.

Edited October 16, 2009 by K^2

[mkey82]

 

This is a perfect opportunity to show off your skill. Crappy ice rides, just like in GTAIV.

GTA IV cars drive very close to what real cars drive like.

What, making a 360 while doing 40kmph? I don't agree. Too much sliding. For the bigger part, handling is done very nicely, especially for a game that doesn't even have driving in its main focus. A lot better then any NFS I tried or Burnout, a whole lot.

 

 

And if the cars performed consistently bad in SA

Some cars were utter crap in SA and I just wrote it off to them being lousy cars with lousy handling. Maybe they overdid it here and there, but for most car mods I tried, people were also overdoing it, but in the other direction., so you cehad ultra super handling that really required zero skill. GTA Iv has also a few really crappy handlers.

 

I really never noticed such big difference in handling changes, for the best part I just steered clear of some vehicles. The only extreme I noticed was with the bike driving skill and falling off from the bike which came next to impossible if you drove the bike all the time. And I won't even start talking about the driving school, as those few jumps and twists I completed only by pure luck, usually after fifteenth try or so lol

 

 

Yeah, eating was something you did once in a while, not a big deal.

I didn't mind that part, actually.

I wasn't referring to you in this comment. There are dumb sh*ts who played SA for full five minutes and know all the ins and outs of the game and are just compelled to fill the board with their garbage. Most will mention this as "teh uber stupid-est thing in gTA evah!!11!", but will fail to recall the mobile phone call abuse you have to endure in GTAIV. which is worse at least one order of magnitude.

 

 

Now there is another useless, annoying use of a stat. Pilot stat to open the gates to the airport.

I didn't find it as such. It was just the means to weed out the stupid people who can't get over the fence. And besides, when they don't let you get in somewhere, it makes it a lot more fun to try and find some other way in.

[K^2]

 

What, making a 360 while doing 40kmph?

If you try to make a 90° turn going 40kph on high CG car with all-weather tires, realize you aren't making it, and slam the brakes, yes, you'll spin out. Not 360, but a 180 easily. And by the way, you won't get a 360 in IV, either, unless you apply throttle as well. Again, if you start to spin out on regular car at 40kph and push the pedal to the metal, you'll do a 360 no problem.

 

If you own a car, next time you are planning to change tires, you should try some of these things in some deserted location, like an abandoned parking lot. Try making a corner like you would in a computer game, and you'll see exactly the same outcome as you see in IV.

 

 

It was just the means to weed out the stupid people who can't get over the fence.

Alright. Then why open it when you obtain a "license", and why SF planes remained locked despite you having a license until you went through flight school? If it was all just based on flight school, I'd understand it, but it's still silly. If you can get to the planes, you should be able to fly them.

[mkey82]

I know the effect of a handbrake on the car with worn out tires and a worn out road, but you don't need a handbrake in GTAIV to spin out of control, just a mild tap on the breaks will do you nicely.

 

Isn't the license acquired with the flight school? What's "license"? Anyway, they wanted to spread the features around, so the game lasts a bit longer. I presume, most people first time around just came to the airport, kissed the fence and said "OK, I'll come back later". Not everything makes sense in GTA and I wouldn't expect it to. You need scripted stuff to bypass some limitations. Maybe they could have con further down the path and allow you to enter the plane, but you couldn't actually turn it on as you haven't been in the school and hence you don't know how to.

 

Playing without limits is not fun. At least for me.

[ldee]

Something that came to mind.

 

In SA, we had all these RPG influences: Weapon skills, driving skills, muscle, body fat, stamina etc.

 

Now in IV, it's all gone.

 

I would really like to see this back. It's not all that unrealistic that you get fat if you eat too much, get stronger if you train a lot, and of course your driving skills go up if you race a lot. But the old features from SA aren't all:

• Quicker fighting: The more people you beat up, the 'faster' you'll be able to counter and counterattack
• Or even one time only awards, which don't allow improvement: For example, use +- 50 health packages and get 33% more health out of it after that
• If some kind of loan sharking sidemission is in the game, the more you terrorize your 'clients', the pay will slowly increase

That's all that comes to mind right now, but that's just because I/we don't know any of the NeXt game's features yet. What I do know, however, is that I want these RPG influences back. Gives you something to do, and.. just think of the multiplayer possibilities.

 

Opinions?

Agreed with every single thing.