The Capone Posted September 24, 2009 Share Posted September 24, 2009 My, I've stirred up quite the hornet's nest haven't I? After some thinking, I've come up with the following menu of theories concerning Jim for you to chew over: 1. The Retcon. This is by far the most popular theory. While I do not believe that Rockstar made any mistakes in regards to Jim's death it is understandable, because of Rockstar's prior mistakes (Hot Coffee, Vic Vance), for most people to believe this. 2. Luis kills Jim. I believe that Luis is the one who kills Jim in a chase that occurs very shortly after the one that Niko starts. While we've killed friends before they were really turncoats you don't mind killing. Here, however, I think Rockstar will force you to kill someone that you actually liked and who worked with you in the prior game. Rockstar's way of trying to do something different. 3. Neither Niko or Luis kills Jim. Somebody else does and leaves his body in the subway. Hopefully during the course of TBoGT we see who does it and the circumstances surrounding it. 4. Jim doesn't die at all. Jim, because of his wife and child and knowing how deep things are, decides to go to the Feds and enter Witness Protection. After the chase with Niko and finding that one of the bikers was burned beyond recognition the Feds decide to use this dead biker as cover to help Jim escape into Witness Protection. So, in a sense, Niko does actually "kill" Jim but not in the traditional way. The closest thing to a feel good ending for Jim. 5. None of the above. Rockstar pulls a fast one and we all look like bloody idiots. Remember, each entree from the menu comes with a free side order of fries and a drink (but the big breasted scantly clad waitress who delivers your order will cost you extra). Enjoy! really your logic is f*cked Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RARusk Posted September 27, 2009 Author Share Posted September 27, 2009 My, I've stirred up quite the hornet's nest haven't I? After some thinking, I've come up with the following menu of theories concerning Jim for you to chew over: 1. The Retcon. This is by far the most popular theory. While I do not believe that Rockstar made any mistakes in regards to Jim's death it is understandable, because of Rockstar's prior mistakes (Hot Coffee, Vic Vance), for most people to believe this. 2. Luis kills Jim. I believe that Luis is the one who kills Jim in a chase that occurs very shortly after the one that Niko starts. While we've killed friends before they were really turncoats you don't mind killing. Here, however, I think Rockstar will force you to kill someone that you actually liked and who worked with you in the prior game. Rockstar's way of trying to do something different. 3. Neither Niko or Luis kills Jim. Somebody else does and leaves his body in the subway. Hopefully during the course of TBoGT we see who does it and the circumstances surrounding it. 4. Jim doesn't die at all. Jim, because of his wife and child and knowing how deep things are, decides to go to the Feds and enter Witness Protection. After the chase with Niko and finding that one of the bikers was burned beyond recognition the Feds decide to use this dead biker as cover to help Jim escape into Witness Protection. So, in a sense, Niko does actually "kill" Jim but not in the traditional way. The closest thing to a feel good ending for Jim. 5. None of the above. Rockstar pulls a fast one and we all look like bloody idiots. Remember, each entree from the menu comes with a free side order of fries and a drink (but the big breasted scantly clad waitress who delivers your order will cost you extra). Enjoy! really your logic is f*cked Now, now, don't be such a party pooper. Speculation is part of the fun when you are anticipating a new game within the GTA universe. And I am having a little fun going against the grain and telling people that the whole deal with Jim's death is NOT a retcon. Just choose the theory you think is best and we will see who is right come October 29th. "One day I will think of this as just another job. After all, this is what I do." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Capone Posted September 27, 2009 Share Posted September 27, 2009 My, I've stirred up quite the hornet's nest haven't I? After some thinking, I've come up with the following menu of theories concerning Jim for you to chew over: 1. The Retcon. This is by far the most popular theory. While I do not believe that Rockstar made any mistakes in regards to Jim's death it is understandable, because of Rockstar's prior mistakes (Hot Coffee, Vic Vance), for most people to believe this. 2. Luis kills Jim. I believe that Luis is the one who kills Jim in a chase that occurs very shortly after the one that Niko starts. While we've killed friends before they were really turncoats you don't mind killing. Here, however, I think Rockstar will force you to kill someone that you actually liked and who worked with you in the prior game. Rockstar's way of trying to do something different. 3. Neither Niko or Luis kills Jim. Somebody else does and leaves his body in the subway. Hopefully during the course of TBoGT we see who does it and the circumstances surrounding it. 4. Jim doesn't die at all. Jim, because of his wife and child and knowing how deep things are, decides to go to the Feds and enter Witness Protection. After the chase with Niko and finding that one of the bikers was burned beyond recognition the Feds decide to use this dead biker as cover to help Jim escape into Witness Protection. So, in a sense, Niko does actually "kill" Jim but not in the traditional way. The closest thing to a feel good ending for Jim. 5. None of the above. Rockstar pulls a fast one and we all look like bloody idiots. Remember, each entree from the menu comes with a free side order of fries and a drink (but the big breasted scantly clad waitress who delivers your order will cost you extra). Enjoy! really your logic is f*cked Now, now, don't be such a party pooper. Speculation is part of the fun when you are anticipating a new game within the GTA universe. And I am having a little fun going against the grain and telling people that the whole deal with Jim's death is NOT a retcon. Just choose the theory you think is best and we will see who is right come October 29th. how is it a theory its plain as sunlight in the eyes! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FearTheLiving Posted September 27, 2009 Share Posted September 27, 2009 (edited) I always believed that Jim was killed by Niko, but the other night I had a theory. What if Jim never dies? What if it was a cover up by that Agent Jones from LaD? After playing LaD a couple times I noticed Jim was acting weird and I expected him to turn but he never did. Also when Agent Jones calls a second time he says "We already have someone your to late" what if that person was Jim and the FIB just covered it up and told the news casters the body was Jim even though there was no Jim there, so that The Lost wouldn't find out and kill Jim before trail? I highly doubt this is true, but it would make sense as to why Jim isn't in Niko's game and it's so confusing . Also chances are you'd never even know if this was true until the next GTA when/if you say a news thing on TV sayinf "The Lost Alderney Chapter is behind bars". EDIT: I didn't notice RARusk had the same theory listed, I guess I'm not the only one who thought Jim might have flipped. Edited September 27, 2009 by FearTheLiving Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tycek Posted September 27, 2009 Share Posted September 27, 2009 I always believed that Jim was killed by Niko, but the other night I had a theory. What if Jim never dies? What if it was a cover up by that Agent Jones from LaD? After playing LaD a couple times I noticed Jim was acting weird and I expected him to turn but he never did. Also when Agent Jones calls a second time he says "We already have someone your to late" what if that person was Jim and the FIB just covered it up and told the news casters the body was Jim even though there was no Jim there, so that The Lost wouldn't find out and kill Jim before trail? I highly doubt this is true, but it would make sense as to why Jim isn't in Niko's game and it's so confusing . Also chances are you'd never even know if this was true until the next GTA when/if you say a news thing on TV sayinf "The Lost Alderney Chapter is behind bars". EDIT: I didn't notice RARusk had the same theory listed, I guess I'm not the only one who thought Jim might have flipped. I don't want to burst your bubble, but if you played TLAD and I believe you did, you know that Alderney chapter of The Lost MC stopped his existence in the ending of the game. People from it probably escaped and start new life or joined Broker chapter. Last members from AC was Johnny and Angus. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FearTheLiving Posted September 27, 2009 Share Posted September 27, 2009 I always believed that Jim was killed by Niko, but the other night I had a theory. What if Jim never dies? What if it was a cover up by that Agent Jones from LaD? After playing LaD a couple times I noticed Jim was acting weird and I expected him to turn but he never did. Also when Agent Jones calls a second time he says "We already have someone your to late" what if that person was Jim and the FIB just covered it up and told the news casters the body was Jim even though there was no Jim there, so that The Lost wouldn't find out and kill Jim before trail? I highly doubt this is true, but it would make sense as to why Jim isn't in Niko's game and it's so confusing . Also chances are you'd never even know if this was true until the next GTA when/if you say a news thing on TV sayinf "The Lost Alderney Chapter is behind bars". EDIT: I didn't notice RARusk had the same theory listed, I guess I'm not the only one who thought Jim might have flipped. I don't want to burst your bubble, but if you played TLAD and I believe you did, you know that Alderney chapter of The Lost MC stopped his existence in the ending of the game. People from it probably escaped and start new life or joined Broker chapter. Last members from AC was Johnny and Angus. What are you talking about? Just because the chapter broke up doesn't mean all the stuff they had done vanishes with it. If they were ever put in a trial and they had a witness with all the info about what was going down they would all be in trial. Just because there is no chapter doesn't mean they'd get off scott free . I just used the little new bit saying "Alderney Chapter" to describe them not like that's the exact words the game would use. Also the last members of the AC weren't just Johnny and Angus there was Clay and Terry too along with the rest of those generic bikers you did Gang Wars with. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tycek Posted September 27, 2009 Share Posted September 27, 2009 Okay. My mistake. There were four of them: Johnny, Clay, Terry, Angus, but i'm sure that i read somewhere that Clay and Terry were members of Broker Chapter, but maybe that was a bullsh*t. Of course they probably would be investigation, but only member that want to speak was Grey. Beside it's just a game. They burnt down the clubhouse and scattered, so no-one could find them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
:.LJNsucked.: Posted September 27, 2009 Share Posted September 27, 2009 I'm going to play TLAD again soon in anticipation for TBoGT, so if I notice anything I'll tell you. I don't know why, but I clearly remember Jim leaving or backing up to leave after Johnny left, but I may have been out of it and seeing things... @Tycek, that is bullsh*t, Clay and Terry are members of the Alderney chapter just like Jim and Johnny. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GTA_dog Posted October 4, 2009 Share Posted October 4, 2009 what jim are you talking about? Jim Jones. Jim Carrey Jim Gaffigan Slim Jim Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RARusk Posted November 23, 2009 Author Share Posted November 23, 2009 I finally finished up TBoGT and I am ready to come back to this topic with my findings: Outside of the two missions where Johnny appears, the Lost don't even exist in TBoGT. Looking through the Liberty City Police database offers no clues since, in TBoGT, the database is not updated for missing or dead characters, like Vlad for instance. His status is updated to Deceased in GTA IV but there is no update for him in TBoGT. And there is no mention of Jim's death in the Liberty City Tree even after going through it repeatedly after the mission "Not So Fast". This means that Jim dies AFTER the end of TBoGT. This also means no mission to kill him or no clue as to who, outside of Niko, did. And no clues as to whether or not he flipped and went into Witness Protection. So, ultimately, this means that Rockstar did indeed do a retcon on Jim's death after all. Very disappointing. They had an opportunity to do something interesting in regards to Jim but they took the cheap way out. And made me look foolish in the process. No matter. I'll accept my punishment and move on. I'll update my TLaD guide with this new information as I finish up with my TBoGT guide. "One day I will think of this as just another job. After all, this is what I do." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mokrie Dela Posted November 23, 2009 Share Posted November 23, 2009 actually, the LCPD DB doesnt update in TLAD either - not from Nikos story.... or at least it didnt with me. TBOGT i think ends AFTER IV, or around the same time, i'm not sure. But Theres alot of news stories missing - i think they left them out to focus on other stuff. Its quite simple really. Johnny and Jim escapes from ray, killing his goon. Then Ray sends his men after Johnny, and sends Niko (currently under his employment, there for one of his men) after Jim. Johnny leaves jim in the exactsame place as when Niko sees them, theyre even standing in the same positions. The bikes are the same too. Then Niko, after killing Jim, phones Ray to tell him. Ray then tells Ashley, probably hoping it'll get back to the rest of the gang, or ashley overhears or w.e Its really obvious, Niko kills Jim, unless the witness protection theory's true. Either jim dies in this mission, or he somehow got someone like ULPC guy to find a mute idiot to stupidly take his place. Im relatively sure Jim is killed by niko. If someone shows you a Zebra, are you going to call it a giraffe? The only true wisdom is in knowing you know nothing. Click here to view my Poetry Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
supermortalhuman Posted November 23, 2009 Share Posted November 23, 2009 I cannot believe this was even a question in anyone's mind, are you serious? With 5 theories to choose from about a ped that you specifically remember chasing and then shot down in the subway along with another biker goon? How can you even start concluding someone else did it? Niko did it - you were there... How could there even be any doubt in the first place? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Capone Posted November 27, 2009 Share Posted November 27, 2009 I finally finished up TBoGT and I am ready to come back to this topic with my findings: Outside of the two missions where Johnny appears, the Lost don't even exist in TBoGT. Looking through the Liberty City Police database offers no clues since, in TBoGT, the database is not updated for missing or dead characters, like Vlad for instance. His status is updated to Deceased in GTA IV but there is no update for him in TBoGT. And there is no mention of Jim's death in the Liberty City Tree even after going through it repeatedly after the mission "Not So Fast". This means that Jim dies AFTER the end of TBoGT. This also means no mission to kill him or no clue as to who, outside of Niko, did. And no clues as to whether or not he flipped and went into Witness Protection. So, ultimately, this means that Rockstar did indeed do a retcon on Jim's death after all. Very disappointing. They had an opportunity to do something interesting in regards to Jim but they took the cheap way out. And made me look foolish in the process. No matter. I'll accept my punishment and move on. I'll update my TLaD guide with this new information as I finish up with my TBoGT guide. IS YOUR BRAIN WORKING RIGHT Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
leeg1931 Posted December 2, 2009 Share Posted December 2, 2009 Niko killed Jim get over it Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
simonp92 Posted December 2, 2009 Share Posted December 2, 2009 Niko killed Jim get over it You might wanna check how old this topic is. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jackass2009 Posted December 2, 2009 Share Posted December 2, 2009 When I heard the news first time around in TLAD, I was like "sh*t, Johnny. Sucks for you." then I played through IV for like the 24th time, I read on the Liberty Tree that the bikers were Jim Fitzgerald, and an unidentified biker. I saw the guy who shouted something like "Jim!" And I was thinking "What? Jim was in his 30's. He didn't have a grey beard." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Volt Krueger Posted December 4, 2009 Share Posted December 4, 2009 1. Is it really Jim that Niko kills in the GTA IV Mission "No Way on the Subway"? Because he looks drasticly different than he does in The Lost and Damned so I'm just wondering was this embaressing inconsistency just a matter of you not being decided on a final model for him when GTA IV came out or was it intentional and therefore part of a cover up of some sort?? Appearance has nothing to do with it. When playing Luis, was there EVER a time when you chased and killed bikers in a Subway? No. That's the most obvious proof, fans assuming that Luis did this huge setup behind the actual playing of him in the game is retarded. You playing the character in GTA is supposed to be real time, not you zoning in on interesting points of their lives. Them doing kills and setups in between the story mode and when you're there to witnesses it has never existed, and it never will. Now as for adressing the post i'm quoting, the appearance has as little to do with the scenario as the adds in the game people are connecting to next GTA hints are. Johnny isn't wearing the same clothes he is in TLaD if you play through GTA IV - even if you DL'd the DLC. Is this because it's not the same person!?!? (Idiot GTA conspiricists thoughts), no. The graphics are like this because Rockstar is lazy and didn't want to put the effort in to change models, Johnny doesn't look at all like he does in GTA IV, and Niko is still in his grubby beginning clothes in TlaD (Even though at the diamond exchange Nikos already 100k+ rich). These are both due to laziness by Rockstar. So the unrelevant appearance of Jim should not be connected to some conspiracy story, it's the same lazy bullsh*t they pulled with the other things i mentioned above. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lancer1990 Posted December 4, 2009 Share Posted December 4, 2009 (edited) Diamond ambush was way before Jim's death. Remember that Jim died after Johnny ran away with the Cash from The Libertonian. By the way GTA IV Story (The guy to ther right is Jim?) http://media.gtanet.com/images/4921-gta-iv...-the-subway.jpg GTA TLAD http://media.gtanet.com/images/5993-gta-iv...ectors-item.jpg Also I wonder why would Niko chase them from that alleyway in Northwood when for the last time you saw Jim alive was when he was evading from Little Italy to get the Brothers (So he would head to Alderney?) Edited December 4, 2009 by Lancer1990 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RARusk Posted December 5, 2009 Author Share Posted December 5, 2009 "Also I wonder why would Niko chase them from that alleyway in Northwood when for the last time you saw Jim alive was when he was evading from Little Italy to get the Brothers (So he would head to Alderney?)" During my latest update to my TLaD guide I noted a minor observation when playing the mission "Was It Worth It?". At the end of the opening cutscene we see Johnny and Jim get on their bikes. Jim then takes a hard right at the first corner as he rides away. So I decided to do the same just to see if I could follow him. You can't follow him but I found that when you turn right you are going the wrong way on a one way street. On top of that, I decided to go down this street to the end to see if I could find anything interesting. I found that this road leads right to a Police station. Coincidence? Probably. But I did find it interesting considering that one of the theories was that he may have ran to the Cops to protect himself and his family. But, more than likely he took that route to shake off Ray's goons before heading north. "One day I will think of this as just another job. After all, this is what I do." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
supermortalhuman Posted December 5, 2009 Share Posted December 5, 2009 @lancer: Jim is the bald guy, in both pics. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tycek Posted December 5, 2009 Share Posted December 5, 2009 Yeah. Especially on the second pic. Jim is that guy in bandana and yellow boots. And as I said many posts ago Niko killed Jim and there is no doubt about it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lancer1990 Posted December 5, 2009 Share Posted December 5, 2009 @lancer: Jim is the bald guy, in both pics. Yeah but he changed alot since GTA IV Original Story. In that Mission "No way on the subway" you can see that Jim is white. While on the other one he is tanned with a bandana. Also Yestarday i read on "Deh GTA IV Internetz News" that Jim Died at the Subway Chase where Niko was. So it had to be him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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