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Breaking Bohan

Cap and Trade: Global Warming

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Breaking Bohan

The US Congress is currently debating cap and trade policy, which will essentially place a federal tax on carbon emmissions. I understand that this type of policy has been used in Europe.

 

Do any persons from Europe have any views on how this type of policy works, and how effective it is on combating "global warming"?

 

Does anyone think this will actually work?

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Spaghetti Cat

Let's see...a tax on polluters, that is passed on to the consumers (you and me), and the question is will it work?

 

Only if the objective is pissing people off.

 

I believe where it's been enacted in Europe, the polluters just move to their operations to another country with lax pollution rules. Places like Eastern Europe of Africa. If this passes over here, what's left of our manufacturing base will just move to Mexico or China. That's if they haven't already!

 

This law will not solve anything, just shuffle the paperwork around.

 

It's also a scam, but that's just my opinion

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major underscore

If you are concerned that there aren't enough lobbyists around, this policy is a great way to boost their numbers as industries and companies try to convince those in charge of this government program that they should be given larger "allowances" than the next guy.

 

If your goal is to actually combat global warming (or is it "climat change" this month?) then your first task would be to see where in the world each dollar of investment would reduce this kind of pollutants the most. Unfortunately, much of the "global warming" activists are more concerned with local issues that make them feel good rather than actually going about it rationally, trying to get the most result for each dollar spent.

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Breaking Bohan

It seems to me that the science behind global warming is questionable. It seems to be "green science" ... or a niche industry within the scientific community. When the run into unfavorable data for their theory, they just use different data.

 

I just heard guy on radio, a senator from Australia, who says that although the carbon emissions have gone up significantly in past 10 years, the temp change has not gone up at all. He asked the govt scientists for explanation, and they could not offer one - same went for White House.

 

He also went on to discuss the manner in which they gathered datapoints to figure the "global temp" ... and that it seems to be changing whenever the factual data does not fit the theory of "global warming"

 

------------------------

 

 

Since the science is far from decided upon, why enact some crazy tax scheme all built upon the theory of "global warming" that gives the govt control to regulate nearly every aspect of life that is connected to the creation or usage of energy (which basically includes most activities).

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Mike Tequeli

You're actually denying global warming completely?

 

That isn't the issue here, the issue is whether these measures are bad for the economy and useless for the environment.

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Otter

I think the term "global warming" is misused to the point of it becoming entirely useless. To deny that carbon emissions are accelerating the natural (via the sun) processes of increasing temperatures does not deny the fact that our planet is warming up.

 

Therein lies the crux of the argument - will less carbon emissions reduce the rate of warming, and are government programs going to be effective when it comes to reducing carbon emissions?

 

I believe that a greener planet will always be a better planet, but that it's our personal responsibilities to ensure this. However, it seems that people fear ostracizing for battling the symptoms, when we have no hard data on how to treat the disease. Does it make sense to keep tossing money at it, without clear goals? (beyond the overall reduction of carbon emissions) Unfortunately, if we cut all greenhouse gasses overnight, we'll still be dealing with the after effects for decades, and civilization would come to a standstill.

 

We need to accept that we're dirty, and look into better ways of cleaning up after ourselves. And I don't want the government to decide how we go about it, when up until recently, they hadn't even acknowledged it as a real issue.

 

So I'll say it again - instead of a carbon tax, offer tax breaks for "green" investments. Solar Power. Landfill reclamation. Tree planting. Water reclamation. Buying electric or hybrid vehicles.

 

And let's not even get started on carbon offsetting.

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Breaking Bohan
I think the term "global warming" is misused to the point of it becoming entirely useless. To deny that carbon emissions are accelerating the natural (via the sun) processes of increasing temperatures does not deny the fact that our planet is warming up.

 

Therein lies the crux of the argument - will less carbon emissions reduce the rate of warming, and are government programs going to be effective when it comes to reducing carbon emissions?

 

I believe that a greener planet will always be a better planet, but that it's our personal responsibilities to ensure this. However, it seems that people fear ostracizing for battling the symptoms, when we have no hard data on how to treat the disease. Does it make sense to keep tossing money at it, without clear goals? (beyond the overall reduction of carbon emissions) Unfortunately, if we cut all greenhouse gasses overnight, we'll still be dealing with the after effects for decades, and civilization would come to a standstill.

 

We need to accept that we're dirty, and look into better ways of cleaning up after ourselves. And I don't want the government to decide how we go about it, when up until recently, they hadn't even acknowledged it as a real issue.

 

So I'll say it again - instead of a carbon tax, offer tax breaks for "green" investments. Solar Power. Landfill reclamation. Tree planting. Water reclamation. Buying electric or hybrid vehicles.

 

And let's not even get started on carbon offsetting.

I agree.

 

If the govt wants to encourage solar/wind development, then make those technologies less expensive by offering tax credits. The govt should not tax everyone just to make oil/gas more expensive - then everyone will be much poorer (except the govt).

 

Moreover, I have serious doubts that carbon credits would help everyone except brokerage houses. Big companies will still emit carbon - they will just have to pay more to do so, and we as customers will have to pay more for their products.

 

 

 

@Mike

I also wasn't attempting to completely deny any warming - I believe temp probably is in flux because of many many factors that we may not entirely understand.

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Bigs

I do believe "climate change" is a serious threat in the long run to the health of our planet. I do believe governments of the world should act. But I think the US and others are going about it the wrong way.

 

They need to reward individuals and companies that are environmentally friendly with tax cuts and praise. By using operant conditioning and reinforcement and transitioning I believe they could be much more successful than a prompt demand for a cap and tax hikes.

 

If the government wants to FORCE a cap, that's fine as long as they offer companies a practical 'green' method for comparable production rates and income. So far they haven't done that.

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Jesus'En'Hitler420

We've been engaged in controlling emmissions for the past 40 years. When will it be enough? In a world where the 3rd world is growing constantly, is there a point of the U.S doing much of anything at all when they all are growing their demands for oil?

 

The fact is oil and coal are the easiest forms of energy to harness and use, and that is why it is essentially worthless for this to be put into law. Once solar, electric, hydrogen, or biofuels become more marketable, then I'm sure much of the population and bussiness sector would be happy to turn in their oil vehicles for a power that is sustainable and longer lasting than oil/coal.

 

I'd be happy to buy solar panels if I knew I could get the same power that I get from my electric company, at even an eighth or quarter of the cost per month, maybe even the same cost (depending on my budget at the time), knowing the benefits it would have on my surroundings.

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FFRJ

I think that the government should not only push privite investment in green tech but also must get rid of the old forms of polluters who will try to crush any competition ( They have done so for the past 30 yrs with ease). To do that you tax them and give tax breaks and subsides to the new industries. Otherwise you will just end up wasting billions of dollars for nothing. That said Cap and Trade is only part of the solution but a variable part. Subsides are not enough. The consumer might hurt some now but they will hurt 3 times more 20 yrs later when nothing has been done about the situation and they are mad that gasoline cost -insert high price here-.

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Mike Tequeli
I think that the government should not only push privite investment in green tech but also must get rid of the old forms of polluters who will try to crush any competition ( They have done so for the past 30 yrs with ease). To do that you tax them and give tax breaks and subsides to the new industries. Otherwise you will just end up wasting billions of dollars for nothing. That said Cap and Trade is only part of the solution but a variable part. Subsides are not enough. The consumer might hurt some now but they will hurt 3 times more 20 yrs later when nothing has been done about the situation and they are mad that gasoline cost -insert high price here-.

We will adapt to meet our energy needs, nobody is too concerned with gas running out and crippling the economy. We can't try to bet on winners of the energy wars, because we will end up wasting our money and creating false industry. Take corn ethanol, we subsidize the hell out of it despite the fact that it is not a viable or economical source of energy. As a result corn prices skyrocket and the tax payers blow money on something that will fade away in ten years.

 

Let creative capitalists do their thing and allow nuclear power plants to be built. That alone could make the US much more energy efficient.

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bobgtafan
I think that the government should not only push privite investment in green tech but also must get rid of the old forms of polluters who will try to crush any competition ( They have done so for the past 30 yrs with ease). To do that you tax them and give tax breaks and subsides to the new industries. Otherwise you will just end up wasting billions of dollars for nothing. That said Cap and Trade is only part of the solution but a variable part. Subsides are not enough. The consumer might hurt some now but they will hurt 3 times more 20 yrs later when nothing has been done about the situation and they are mad that gasoline cost -insert high price here-.

We will adapt to meet our energy needs, nobody is too concerned with gas running out and crippling the economy. We can't try to bet on winners of the energy wars, because we will end up wasting our money and creating false industry. Take corn ethanol, we subsidize the hell out of it despite the fact that it is not a viable or economical source of energy. As a result corn prices skyrocket and the tax payers blow money on something that will fade away in ten years.

 

Let creative capitalists do their thing and allow nuclear power plants to be built. That alone could make the US much more energy efficient.

Mike no one is concerned about the gas running out it's prices as demand increases and supply can't keep up. The privite markets havn't solved glombal warming or the need for cleaner energy yet and the market for it is being drowned by the current holders of the market ( That clean coal crap for example or off shore drilling) who want to just say course when it's obvoius that we need a major change and fast. I'm not saying the government should be the companies I'm saying the government should push green energy while taxing the industries that create a negative output ( pollution). But I do agree ethonal based corn was a dumb idea because corn is such a valuable commidite when it comes to food production. We should try to use new tech like waste or something along those lines. Not food.

 

Also think about this who pioneered the internet? Nuclear power? Rockets? The government. Then we let the free market take over and change the way we live for the better. The reason the free market didn't do all of that is because of the ups and downs and the free market is short term. And if somethings we waste money on o well because we will be better off than we would be letting the free market wait til the last minute and make MEGA profits before they change anything.

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Breaking Bohan

The more I hear about "Global Warming" the more it sounds like a scam. But it does sound like a very effective way for the gov't to increase its ability to regulate everything and collect lots of new taxes on energy production and consumption.

 

But I can't believe that this Cap & Trade bill is going to do anything but drive up prices of everything and force more manufacturing jobs to move to China or India (or some other country with less pollution control).

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