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Omnia sunt Communia

Does the world still need religion?

Recommended Posts

Tobias Fünke

How is Our Lady of Guadalupe a miracle? It was just some painting Spanish priests used to convert the Indian population to Catholicism.

 

And until the Catholic church lets other people examine the bodies, the whole "Incorruptible Saints theory" is bullsh*t.

 

Edit: Actually mummification can occur quite randomly and may be a result of the conditions they were buried in. I once saw a mummified squirrel, does that make it a holy squirrel?

Edited by Tobias Fünke

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blowdro420

religion does exist.

is it false, is there a true god?

that's the remaining question.

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philster_12
How is Our Lady of Guadalupe a miracle? It was just some painting Spanish priests used to convert the Indian population to Catholicism.

 

And until the Catholic church lets other people examine the bodies, the whole "Incorruptible Saints theory" is bullsh*t.

 

Edit: Actually mummification can occur quite randomly and may be a result of the conditions they were buried in. I once saw a mummified squirrel, does that make it a holy squirrel?

not really, the lady of guadalupe was'nt painted by the spanish, in the Story, the painting appeared on a cloak with roses. therefor it was considered a miracle (since no one painted it)

 

Well if you Know the Story of Saint Cecillia, its been 500 years since her body was found by a priest in an Undergroud (the Priest went to the Underground bec. Saint Cecillia appeared in his dream telling him about the information and life of Saint Cecillia)....... back to the body, the underground for 500 years would have a hot temperature for years , enough to melt(i forgot the term) the dead skin and body...

 

note: she was'nt buried undergound , her body was found in a hidden room(some sort of)

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General Goose
not really, the lady of guadalupe was'nt painted by the spanish, in the Story, the painting appeared on a cloak with roses. therefor it was considered a miracle (since no one painted it)

Story. Key word here. The Spanish "found" it, and in an attempt to convert more, probably made up bullsh*t.

 

And if they did find it, someone did paint it. Even if it was aliens, it's very unlikely that if there is a God he'd only interfere in Earth to put up some silly paintings.

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philster_12

 

not really, the lady of guadalupe was'nt painted by the spanish, in the Story, the painting appeared on a cloak with roses. therefor it was considered a miracle (since no one painted it)

Story. Key word here. The Spanish "found" it, and in an attempt to convert more, probably made up bullsh*t.

 

And if they did find it, someone did paint it. Even if it was aliens, it's very unlikely that if there is a God he'd only interfere in Earth to put up some silly paintings.

NOT REALLY AGAIN,

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Our_Lady_of_G...the_apparitions

 

( i Know wikipedia can be edited by anyone but still you can find the REAL STORY in the internet)

 

it was'nt found it was "made by god" and was painted on Juan Diego's Tilma by god himself.

 

THE Story

Juan Diego had an Vision of a of a young girl of fifteen to sixteen, surrounded by light on Hill of Tepeyac. the Lady asked for a church to be built at that site in her honor. Juan Diego recognised her as the Virgin Mary. When he told his story to the Spanish bishop, Fray Juan de Zumárraga, the bishop asked him to return and ask the lady for a miraculous sign to prove her claim. The Virgin then asked Juan Diego to gather some flowers from the top of Tepeyac Hill, even though it was winter when no flowers bloomed. There, he found Castilian roses. When Juan Diego presented the roses to Zumárraga, the image of the Virgin of Guadalupe miraculously appeared imprinted on the cloth of Diego's tilma.

 

500 years later its was reviewed that it had no sketches (so it was immediately painted without even a guideline)

 

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nlitement
not really, the lady of guadalupe was'nt painted by the spanish, in the Story, the painting appeared on a cloak with roses. therefor it was considered a miracle (since no one painted it)

Story. Key word here. The Spanish "found" it, and in an attempt to convert more, probably made up bullsh*t.

 

And if they did find it, someone did paint it. Even if it was aliens, it's very unlikely that if there is a God he'd only interfere in Earth to put up some silly paintings.

NOT REALLY AGAIN,

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Our_Lady_of_G...the_apparitions

 

( i Know wikipedia can be edited by anyone but still you can find the REAL STORY in the internet)

 

it was'nt found it was "made by god" and was painted on Juan Diego's Tilma by god himself.

 

THE Story

Juan Diego had an Vision of a of a young girl of fifteen to sixteen, surrounded by light on Hill of Tepeyac. the Lady asked for a church to be built at that site in her honor. Juan Diego recognised her as the Virgin Mary. When he told his story to the Spanish bishop, Fray Juan de Zumárraga, the bishop asked him to return and ask the lady for a miraculous sign to prove her claim. The Virgin then asked Juan Diego to gather some flowers from the top of Tepeyac Hill, even though it was winter when no flowers bloomed. There, he found Castilian roses. When Juan Diego presented the roses to Zumárraga, the image of the Virgin of Guadalupe miraculously appeared imprinted on the cloth of Diego's tilma.

 

500 years later its was reviewed that it had no sketches (so it was immediately painted without even a guideline)

And it begins with:

 

 

According to official Catholic accounts of the Guadalupan apparitions..

 

Everything after that you can just ignore.

 

This is the section you want to read.

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General Goose
not really, the lady of guadalupe was'nt painted by the spanish, in the Story, the painting appeared on a cloak with roses. therefor it was considered a miracle (since no one painted it)

Story. Key word here. The Spanish "found" it, and in an attempt to convert more, probably made up bullsh*t.

 

And if they did find it, someone did paint it. Even if it was aliens, it's very unlikely that if there is a God he'd only interfere in Earth to put up some silly paintings.

NOT REALLY AGAIN,

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Our_Lady_of_G...the_apparitions

 

( i Know wikipedia can be edited by anyone but still you can find the REAL STORY in the internet)

 

it was'nt found it was "made by god" and was painted on Juan Diego's Tilma by god himself.

 

THE Story

Juan Diego had an Vision of a of a young girl of fifteen to sixteen, surrounded by light on Hill of Tepeyac. the Lady asked for a church to be built at that site in her honor. Juan Diego recognised her as the Virgin Mary. When he told his story to the Spanish bishop, Fray Juan de Zumárraga, the bishop asked him to return and ask the lady for a miraculous sign to prove her claim. The Virgin then asked Juan Diego to gather some flowers from the top of Tepeyac Hill, even though it was winter when no flowers bloomed. There, he found Castilian roses. When Juan Diego presented the roses to Zumárraga, the image of the Virgin of Guadalupe miraculously appeared imprinted on the cloth of Diego's tilma.

 

500 years later its was reviewed that it had no sketches (so it was immediately painted without even a guideline)

A) What nlitement said

 

B) So yeah, Wikipedia says that the Catholics said this. The Catholics said it, so they may have lied. Which was my point in the first place.

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Seachmall
i don't think god promoted murder, rape, genocide to be done by humans , but it is written as a crime,

Observe what I command you this day. Behold, I am driving out from before you the Amorite and the Canaanite and the Hittite and the Perizzite and the Hivite and the Jebusite. Take heed to yourself, lest you make a covenant with the inhabitants of the land where you are going, lest it be a snare in your midst. But you shall destroy their altars, break their sacred pillars, and cut down their wooden images (For you shall worship no other god, for the Lord, whose name is Jealous, is a jealous God.) - Exodus, Chapter 34, verses 11-14

 

You will chase your enemies, and they shall fall by the sword before you. Five of you shall chase a hundred, and a hundred of you shall put ten thousand to flight; your enemies shall fall by the sword before you. For I will look on you favorably and make you fruitful, multiply you and confirm My covenant with you. You shall eat the old harvest, and clear out the old because of the new. - Leviticus, Chapter 26, verses 7-9

 

Anyone who has even glanced at a bible knows that it's not a book written about a joyful, loving and happy god. It's about a god that demands your worship or he will make you and every generation that follows you suffer. In fact the 5th commandment reads,

 

 

You shall not bow down to them or worship them; for I the Lord your God am a jealous God, punishing children for the iniquity of parents, to the third and the fourth generation of those who reject me,

 

God ain't a nice fella, in fact he's quite the prick.

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SilentM

We all had imaginary friends as kids, I hope, to keep us comforted. And I guess, to an extent, because they were "fun."

 

Jesus/Whoever, is (or should be) the same thing.

 

"Jesus loves me." -- If you can believe that, good for you (I wish I could)

But you never tried convince your actual friends that you had imaginary ones. And if you did bring it up, they thought you were a crazy person! If you brought it up, maybe you were a crazy person. Anyhow my point is you created the rules for these figments, not the other way around. There was no book that said to "make everyone else believe it, so they can be happy, too!" Just pride within yourself, that when they went home, Goku would be there (yes, I had Goku. f*cking badass.). It's the same way with religious figures, keep it to yourself. Yeah, I'm sure he helps you through your daily life (placebo or otherwise), but I don't want to hear it. That doesn't appeal to me, you know? I can't believe in some imaginary figure any longer. But I can see why, even today, religion can be helpful.

 

When used correctly (haha, OK, here comes the drug speech) it can instill confidence into those who wouldn't necessarily have much. The idea that somewhere, there is this beautiful thing that cares deeply for us, well that's just bliss! However, ignorance is bliss as well -- are the two one in the same? But if it takes control, you may end up some drone going door to door preaching the positive effects of marij-Jesus.

 

tl;dr Everything's fine in moderation. Especially God.

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philster_12
not really, the lady of guadalupe was'nt painted by the spanish, in the Story, the painting appeared on a cloak with roses. therefor it was considered a miracle (since no one painted it)

Story. Key word here. The Spanish "found" it, and in an attempt to convert more, probably made up bullsh*t.

 

And if they did find it, someone did paint it. Even if it was aliens, it's very unlikely that if there is a God he'd only interfere in Earth to put up some silly paintings.

NOT REALLY AGAIN,

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Our_Lady_of_G...the_apparitions

 

( i Know wikipedia can be edited by anyone but still you can find the REAL STORY in the internet)

 

it was'nt found it was "made by god" and was painted on Juan Diego's Tilma by god himself.

 

THE Story

Juan Diego had an Vision of a of a young girl of fifteen to sixteen, surrounded by light on Hill of Tepeyac. the Lady asked for a church to be built at that site in her honor. Juan Diego recognised her as the Virgin Mary. When he told his story to the Spanish bishop, Fray Juan de Zumárraga, the bishop asked him to return and ask the lady for a miraculous sign to prove her claim. The Virgin then asked Juan Diego to gather some flowers from the top of Tepeyac Hill, even though it was winter when no flowers bloomed. There, he found Castilian roses. When Juan Diego presented the roses to Zumárraga, the image of the Virgin of Guadalupe miraculously appeared imprinted on the cloth of Diego's tilma.

 

500 years later its was reviewed that it had no sketches (so it was immediately painted without even a guideline)

A) What nlitement said

 

B) So yeah, Wikipedia says that the Catholics said this. The Catholics said it, so they may have lied. Which was my point in the first place.

Damn, your ARE of the Most SUPER Skeptical People ive EVER MET.

 

BTW. what about the painting.

 

 

they may have lied

 

Why would they lie when the have the evidence (the painting itself)

 

here is a good testimony about the painting.

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Informaciones...of_the_Painters

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Tobias Fünke

Not only were those people catholic, the Spanish government would probably have had them killed if they disagreed with them.

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philster_12
Not only were those people catholic, the Spanish government would probably have had them killed if they disagreed with them.

 

 

Not really, It Was almost impossible to paint it on a cloak,

 

BTW You Tobias and General Goose are So Skeptical about christianity that when i was reviewing some of the post before I see that you are just saying that "they may have lied" but where's your prof our any Official Conspiracy.

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Seachmall

 

BTW You Tobias and General Goose are So Skeptical about christianity that when i was reviewing some of the post before I see that you are just saying that "they may have lied" but where's your prof our any Official Conspiracy.

Saying something "may" have happened doesn't require proof, it's the default position of any open minded person.

 

To say something definitely did or didn't happen is where proof is required and religion is built on unproven assumptions. They're right to be sceptical, extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence and so far that evidence is lacking.

Edited by Seachmall

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Clem Fandango
Let me ask a question...

 

Without the fear of God and hell, do you think the world would be filled with a lot more crime?

Let me ask you this question. Without religion, do you think there would be a lot less religious wars?

Yes, but that doesn't mean there would be less wars over all. The powers that be obviously didn't believe in religion themselves, they simply used it as motivation to get people to fight for them. Were there no religion, I'm sure they would find some other method.

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General Goose
not really, the lady of guadalupe was'nt painted by the spanish, in the Story, the painting appeared on a cloak with roses. therefor it was considered a miracle (since no one painted it)

Story. Key word here. The Spanish "found" it, and in an attempt to convert more, probably made up bullsh*t.

 

And if they did find it, someone did paint it. Even if it was aliens, it's very unlikely that if there is a God he'd only interfere in Earth to put up some silly paintings.

NOT REALLY AGAIN,

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Our_Lady_of_G...the_apparitions

 

( i Know wikipedia can be edited by anyone but still you can find the REAL STORY in the internet)

 

it was'nt found it was "made by god" and was painted on Juan Diego's Tilma by god himself.

 

THE Story

Juan Diego had an Vision of a of a young girl of fifteen to sixteen, surrounded by light on Hill of Tepeyac. the Lady asked for a church to be built at that site in her honor. Juan Diego recognised her as the Virgin Mary. When he told his story to the Spanish bishop, Fray Juan de Zum�rraga, the bishop asked him to return and ask the lady for a miraculous sign to prove her claim. The Virgin then asked Juan Diego to gather some flowers from the top of Tepeyac Hill, even though it was winter when no flowers bloomed. There, he found Castilian roses. When Juan Diego presented the roses to Zum�rraga, the image of the Virgin of Guadalupe miraculously appeared imprinted on the cloth of Diego's tilma.

 

500 years later its was reviewed that it had no sketches (so it was immediately painted without even a guideline)

A) What nlitement said

 

B) So yeah, Wikipedia says that the Catholics said this. The Catholics said it, so they may have lied. Which was my point in the first place.

Damn, your ARE of the Most SUPER Skeptical People ive EVER MET.

 

BTW. what about the painting.

 

 

they may have lied

 

Why would they lie when the have the evidence (the painting itself)

 

here is a good testimony about the painting.

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Informaciones...of_the_Painters

And you, sir, are agreeably one of the most GULLIBLE individuals I've met.

 

I'm saying may because:

 

1. The only witnesses are heavily biased.

 

2. It's an extraordinary, scientifically implausible claim.

 

3. You need proof it happened, not proof it didn't happen. That's how it works in this case.

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philster_12
not really, the lady of guadalupe was'nt painted by the spanish, in the Story, the painting appeared on a cloak with roses. therefor it was considered a miracle (since no one painted it)

Story. Key word here. The Spanish "found" it, and in an attempt to convert more, probably made up bullsh*t.

 

And if they did find it, someone did paint it. Even if it was aliens, it's very unlikely that if there is a God he'd only interfere in Earth to put up some silly paintings.

NOT REALLY AGAIN,

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Our_Lady_of_G...the_apparitions

 

( i Know wikipedia can be edited by anyone but still you can find the REAL STORY in the internet)

 

it was'nt found it was "made by god" and was painted on Juan Diego's Tilma by god himself.

 

THE Story

Juan Diego had an Vision of a of a young girl of fifteen to sixteen, surrounded by light on Hill of Tepeyac. the Lady asked for a church to be built at that site in her honor. Juan Diego recognised her as the Virgin Mary. When he told his story to the Spanish bishop, Fray Juan de Zum�rraga, the bishop asked him to return and ask the lady for a miraculous sign to prove her claim. The Virgin then asked Juan Diego to gather some flowers from the top of Tepeyac Hill, even though it was winter when no flowers bloomed. There, he found Castilian roses. When Juan Diego presented the roses to Zum�rraga, the image of the Virgin of Guadalupe miraculously appeared imprinted on the cloth of Diego's tilma.

 

500 years later its was reviewed that it had no sketches (so it was immediately painted without even a guideline)

A) What nlitement said

 

B) So yeah, Wikipedia says that the Catholics said this. The Catholics said it, so they may have lied. Which was my point in the first place.

Damn, your ARE of the Most SUPER Skeptical People ive EVER MET.

 

BTW. what about the painting.

 

 

they may have lied

 

Why would they lie when the have the evidence (the painting itself)

 

here is a good testimony about the painting.

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Informaciones...of_the_Painters

And you, sir, are agreeably one of the most GULLIBLE individuals I've met.

 

I'm saying may because:

 

1. The only witnesses are heavily biased.

 

2. It's an extraordinary, scientifically implausible claim.

 

3. You need proof it happened, not proof it didn't happen. That's how it works in this case.

well its not just me who is GULLIBLE other people who believe in this miracle are also GULLIBLE, (if its true you say)

 

Well about what you said on 1.2. and 3.,

 

1. What makes you so sure about that?

 

2. Can you read the url AGAIN that i gave u in the last posts

 

3. Well Theres already proof. READ AGAIN

 

BTW Sorry for the late reply , I'm busy this days in School.

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General Goose

I give up. You are sucking up the lies and superstition organised religion wants you to.

 

Think about it. All those involved wanted to spread Catholicism or were under the command of those who did. The eyewitness accounts are biased. And it's not proof. It's scientifically impossible. REAL, UNBIASED proof is needed.

 

Also: I noticed you put me on your disrespect list for, as I put it, not believing bullcrap. Well, while I thought you were a gullible person, I always respect those in this forum unless in exceptional circumstances. So, I return the favour.

Edited by General Goose

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philster_12
I give up. You are sucking up the lies and superstition organised religion wants you to.

 

Think about it. All those involved wanted to spread Catholicism or were under the command of those who did. The eyewitness accounts are biased. And it's not proof. It's scientifically impossible. REAL, UNBIASED proof is needed.

 

Also: I noticed you put me on your disrespect list for, as I put it, not believing bullcrap. Well, while I thought you were a gullible person, I always respect those in this forum unless in exceptional circumstances. So, I return the favour.

 

You are sucking up the lies and superstition organised religion wants you to.

 

Well pal thats what every religion do, Most religions have loopholes not just christianity and thats the way the defend there side of belief.

 

 

Also: I noticed you put me on your disrespect list for, as I put it, not believing bullcrap. Well, while I thought you were a gullible person, I always respect those in this forum unless in exceptional circumstances. So, I return the favour.

 

Well okay your on my Respect List now, for doing a Good Job colgate.gif

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Sixdust

A bit of educational videos for the readers of this topic.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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philster_12

wth is that sixdust?

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General Goose

Only have had time to see the "ATHEIST!!!" one and I loled.

 

Its so true. Some (SOME) religious people treat atheists and agnostics as ammoral closeminded scumbags, while brushing over the fact religion is one of the main causes for crime and conflict.

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Mad Tony

 

Its so true. Some (SOME) religious people treat atheists and agnostics as ammoral closeminded scumbags, while brushing over the fact religion is one of the main causes for crime and conflict.

Just like some atheists treat religious people as deluded bigots, while ignoring the fact that there are militant people on both sides of the argument. It works both ways my friend. smile.gif

 

Oh, and religion is not one of the main causes of wars and conflict. Greed certainly is though. Greed and the human tendency to hate something or someone who is different from ones self.

 

Imagine...

 

A world without hate and intolerance. smile.gif

Edited by Mad Tony

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General Goose

Yes, and I never said that atheists can't be closeminded bigots either. I just said some religious people are.

 

Greed may be a bigger cause and I accept that, but religion is still a big cause. And one of the many ways human intolerance can appear is religion (e.g. Islamic fundamentalism, the Inquisitions, throwing Christians to the Lions in Roman times etc.)

 

In fact, intolerances and ignorance towards and surrounding religion is probably the main problem of religion, but sometimes religious beliefs, books and organised religion teach those intolerances.

 

And yes, a world without hate and intolerance would be great. But ask yourself; would a world with no negativity or conflict be enjoyable? No negativity and conflict is different to no hate and intolerance, but they are related (though I agree. Bullying, war, prejudice, all terrible, and the world would differently be better off without them. But a world with no problems would be boring.) And human nature is, I believe, at the core, greedy, selfish, intolerant and hateful, just like the nature of almost every animal.

 

And I'd also like to say this: it is human nature to form religions to answer unexplainable questions, give hope and faith, and it is even more human to question religion, to question ideas.

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Ilya

Edit: Nevermind.

Edited by Supreme.

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Asoyfy37

Religion is the biggest human crime. We already proved the Big Bang. There is no need of religion, because the main thing in religions - the God theory failed 15 years ago, when they found the final ellimant in the big bang's understandment. There is no need of religion because there is no God.

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rhyn
Religion is the biggest human crime. We already proved the Big Bang. There is no need of religion, because the main thing in religions - the God theory failed 15 years ago, when they found the final ellimant in the big bang's understandment. There is no need of religion because there is no God.

It's completely plausable that if there is a god or many gods that it/they were responsible for the Big Bang.

 

Religion is not for the understandment of where we came from anyway, it's main goal is to bring about togetherness, good will and a sense of fullfilment in ourselves, unfortunately a lot of religous teachings and goals have been bastardised over time.

 

Does the world still need religion? Of course not, it never did. There will always be people, regardless.

Do some people still need religion? Of course they do.

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Sanjeem

As you know lots of people and crusaders used religeon as an excuse for violence and politics. Bassicly religeon doesn't teach bad things, it's people who use it as an excuse. But if religeon doesn't exist for wars, then the human race would find another excuse to start wars and violence e.t.c. It's human nature...

 

No disrespect ment but some humans in this world are blinded by matierialsed things.

 

I mean about the Qu'ran and the Bible predicting things, Like the qu'ran predicted the Roman/sryian war. It also mentioned the seperation of the salt water and sweet water. People in those days didn't have science, how would they have known this?

 

Also another fascinating thing, Beleive me carry on being athiests i'm not changing you but i personally find this amazing. The Moon was split by Muhammad not into two halfs, it never mentioned it being split into to half, it was just split (Like a crack)

 

Scientists recently disscovered a Split/Crack in the middle of the moon. Sure this isn't proof but it's just a simple suggestion.

 

user posted image

 

 

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Svip
I mean about the Qu'ran and the Bible predicting things, Like the qu'ran predicted the Roman/sryian war. It also mentioned the seperation of the salt water and sweet water. People in those days didn't have science, how would they have known this?

Despite not actually discussing the topic at hand, you also seem to be underestimating the people from back then.

 

People were well aware of the difference between ocean/salt water and fresh water. You think the name "Dead Sea" is a modern name? You think there is some other reason than it being the most salty lake for naming it this?

 

No, my friend, people were well aware about salt water and fresh water. Hell, even being able to turn salt water into fresh water, and knew the important of their separation.

 

Sure we know more about these types of water now, but we just know the causes. They knew all the practically things about it like we do.

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General Goose

Expanding on Svip's point, none of your evidence is really that strong as evidence. People can sometimes make (usually) vague predictions, and get lucky. People had quite good understandings of astronomy and certain aspects of science as well, and anything they couldn't explain was filled in with theories or religion.

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chapapote

I personally don't think that God exists. However, we can't force people not to believe, although organized religions should end.

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