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860

Over-Population

Recommended Posts

Ari Gold

Oh sorry, I grossly misunderstood. I agree that the swine flu was undeniably exaggerated in its effect, I took his post literally, meaning I thought that he was implying that the strand itself was created by the companies themselves.

 

But, in essence, you can't practically blame them. They're private companies producing private medication, and they're going to use the best marketing techniques (in this case, scaremongering) to convince the population into purchasing that particular drug. Their scaremongering tactics and amplification of the severity of the strand is akin to Red Bull advertising that drinking Red Bull will give you wings. It's a bit sickening and borders on the claim that they're abusing their power and trust of the people, but hey, that's the private sector for you, in the end, making a profit is all that matters.

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Emhyr
There are a lot of real environmental problems we face, like genetic engineering, where they are splicing plants, animals, insects, you name it. Toxic waste dumping in the ocean. No one wants to breath bad air or drink toxic water. But the global carbon tax, which is being pushed right now, has nothing to do with that. It's a tax literally on breathing.

I'm sorry but how the hell is genetic engineering a problem? You don't really address the issue. Genetic modification ensures healthier crops that can grow over less land and be more resistant to pests. There is no discernible problem with this process, and no danger from the product itself.

 

 

Pharmaceutical companies know how to deal with this problem,they make a new disease.

 

That's f*cking stupid.

Oh really,is it? Swine flu? I'm not saying they want to kill people,but they make profit on people's illness.

Of course, because that's their f*cking job. It's like saying all doctors are evil from profiting via treating patients.

 

Besides, swine flu broke out via a virus strain in a pig crop somewhere in Mexico, as far as I know. I don't think pharmacists and pharmacologists had anything to do with it.

Well watch few documentary films about it,you will learn that they make viruses,that people can buy their medicaments.It's the same thing with computer viruses,but that's off topic.

It's all about money anyway.I'm just saying that kills people.

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General Goose

The best ways to deal with overpopulation, in my view, is helping develop the Third World (as the biggest families tend to be in the Third World, so increasing wealth and standard of living there should help lower the average family size), and increasing education about and access to things like contraception and such. The whole birth control thing speaks for itself, and it'll also have the benefit of stopping STDs and underage pregnancies and such.

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nerner
Well watch few documentary films about it,you will learn that they make viruses,that people can buy their medicaments.It's the same thing with computer viruses,but that's off topic.

It's all about money anyway.I'm just saying that kills people.

Those aren't documentaries, they are mumbo-jumbo bullsh*t spreading conspiracy theory based crap.

 

Saying that they are deliberately creating virus strains in order to profiteer from them is such a stupid idea I can't put it into words.

 

Although on the bright side, your post did teach me a new word: "medicaments". I like it.

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Emhyr

 

Well watch few documentary films about it,you will learn that they make viruses,that people can buy their medicaments.It's the same thing with computer viruses,but that's off topic.

It's all about money anyway.I'm just saying that kills people.

Those aren't documentaries, they are mumbo-jumbo bullsh*t spreading conspiracy theory based crap.

 

Saying that they are deliberately creating virus strains in order to profiteer from them is such a stupid idea I can't put it into words.

 

Although on the bright side, your post did teach me a new word: "medicaments". I like it.

Hmm,you're so naive,your problem.

 

Yeah,medicament! Sorry,i'm not from Usa,England,so I don't know other word for that,huh.Well,is that word wrong,or?

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EternalChe

 

Well watch few documentary films about it,you will learn that they make viruses,that people can buy their medicaments.It's the same thing with computer viruses,but that's off topic.

It's all about money anyway.I'm just saying that kills people.

Those aren't documentaries, they are mumbo-jumbo bullsh*t spreading conspiracy theory based crap.

please point out what exactly is "crap", so can have a debate on specific points and read my last post.

 

I'm willing to put my money where my mouth is, unlike our linguistically impaired friend.

 

they have been doing this for years, there is plenty of evidence about the "real intentions" of big-pharma, when it comes to AIDS

 

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/africa/8455444.stm

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/africa/6319787.stm

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/conte...2201204_pf.html

http://www.sott.net/articles/show/182359-U...Scientist-Finds

http://allafrica.com/stories/201001120938.html

 

this is what UN and WHO is really doing in Africa, "testing" new vaccines. this is the true essence of population control.

 

but I guess BBC, Washington Post etc. is mumbo-jumbo bullsh*t too, right?

Edited by EternalChe

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EternalChe

oh, sh*t. I accidentally pressed the quote button. sorry guys.

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K^2

Che, you are paranoid delusional. Gene engineering is essential to our survival as a species. Since we stopped natural selection in ourselves, we need to adjust our genome, or we will perish. Have you seen what inbreeding does to people? Without natural selection we are ALL inbreeding. It just takes slower to show. Now it's your choice. We can have genetic engineering or we can have Eugenics. Either one f*cks with natural order of things. Except only one of these involves population control, and it's not genetic engineering. You are actually talking about global conspiracy, and in the same post bash the only way we can survive without it. Good job!

 

And of course pharmaceutical companies make viruses. I know a few people who develop these. You know why they do this? Because a virus is the only way to fix defective genes in a person who's already living among us. Know anyone with Diabetes? Most forms can be easily cured with a viral injection. Heard of Sickle Cell Anemia? Can be cured with viral injections. There are thousands of genetic defects that cause constant discomfort, suffering, and often death of these who happen to be born with them. Viral injections can cure them. And here you go again, talk about how evil pharmaceutical companies are for developing them.

 

And yes, your links are complete bullsh*t. I've seen what the press reports about the articles I've read on Quantum Physics. How do you think the article on potential for quantum black hole formation at LHC became the "World will end when they turn on the LHC?" Journalists love sensations. They'll take any facts they misinterpret that might suggest something sinister, and then they blow them out of proportion to turn it into a global catastrophe. People love reading this sh*t. It sells newspapers. That's why we still have tabloids. But I'm sure you read these too, and consider them a serious resource for your research.

 

Point me to an article. An independent research of some kind. I can give you plenty to support the above points. Because these are scientifically verified facts. What you are posting is bullsh*t.

Edited by K^2

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EternalChe
Che, you are paranoid delusional. Gene engineering is essential to our survival as a species. Since we stopped natural selection in ourselves, we need to adjust our genome, or we will perish. Have you seen what inbreeding does to people? Without natural selection we are ALL inbreeding. It just takes slower to show. Now it's your choice. We can have genetic engineering or we can have Eugenics. Either one f*cks with natural order of things. Except only one of these involves population control, and it's not genetic engineering. You are actually talking about global conspiracy, and in the same post bash the only way we can survive without it. Good job!

 

And of course pharmaceutical companies make viruses. I know a few people who develop these. You know why they do this? Because a virus is the only way to fix defective genes in a person who's already living among us. Know anyone with Diabetes? Most forms can be easily cured with a viral injection. Heard of Sickle Cell Anemia? Can be cured with viral injections. There are thousands of genetic defects that cause constant discomfort, suffering, and often death of these who happen to be born with them. Viral injections can cure them. And here you go again, talk about how evil pharmaceutical companies are for developing them.

 

And yes, your links are complete bullsh*t. I've seen what the press reports about the articles I've read on Quantum Physics. How do you think the article on potential for quantum black hole formation at LHC became the "World will end when they turn on the LHC?" Journalists love sensations. They'll take any facts they misinterpret that might suggest something sinister, and then they blow them out of proportion to turn it into a global catastrophe. People love reading this sh*t. It sells newspapers. That's why we still have tabloids. But I'm sure you read these too, and consider them a serious resource for your research.

 

Point me to an article. An independent research of some kind. I can give you plenty to support the above points. Because these are scientifically verified facts. What you are posting is bullsh*t.

you're right man, mk-ultra, nazi human experimentation, human radiation experiments in the US during the 50's etc. were considered noble at the time too. so let time settle this.

We already have diabetes and autism in young children record highs in the western world, although here where I live autism and diabetes as well as a.d.d. rates are close to zero, maybe because we don't drug our children and feed them garbage at a a young age. and no, I don't know anyone with diabetes, sorry. and wasn't Anemia a genetic disease? I was referring to cures for infectious diseases, but that's not the point.

 

http://edition.cnn.com/2009/HEALTH/10/05/a...?iref=allsearch but i guess that's sensationalism

 

so mainstream journalism isn't valid, you say? independent research, well, I could give you and independent research which says moon is made of cheese, would you believe that?

so I don't really understand what you're looking for.

British Medical Journal did a paper on big-pharma influence on WHO a few months back, is this considered valid by you? http://www.bmj.com/cgi/content/full/340/jun03_4/c2912

I could post some other peer reviewed papers, but people like Leonard Horowitz unfortunately are conspiracy theorists, right?

 

you can talk about scientific facts and "benefits of modern medicine" all you want, it still does not change the fact that big-pharma is influencing scientists and officials to make a buck, and that quickly produced, low quality mass vaccines are not good for anything.

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Emhyr

linguistically impaired friend

 

 

Thank you god on Google Translate! rolleyes.gif

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K^2

Che, it's funny how you try to pretend to be credible by throwing in references to things you don't understand.

 

You know why rates of autism are climbing? Because they are classifying more and more things as autism in US. You know why it's not quite that high everywhere else? Because they decided not to classify these things as autism. According to current US standards, I'm autistic. And you know, if now an autistic person is someone with borderline genius IQ, I don't really see a problem with rising rates, do you?

 

So yeah, good job on clinging onto another bit of sensationalism without any fact checking, Che. Keep going like that, and you wouldn't need my help to punch holes in your credibility.

 

Diabetes is a problem. And like Anemia, it has genetic basis, among other things. Hence viruses used to cure these things. Glad to see another point went straight over your head. Why higher rates in US? Because it has the highest overweight rates. That IS a problem. Are you going to start telling me how pharmaceutical companies are making US population fat? Or is the problem in the cheap food production? Europe is catching up, by the way. Followed by the rest of the first world countries. It's a global problem that will have to be resolved. And guess what, genetic engineering is a potential solution. And again you would rather chase news stories that don't have any basis in reality, while bashing the only thing that can actually help. Good job.

 

And yes, Che. I, a person who spent over a decade studying a serious mainstream science, am going to imply that you should be reading various crackpots when saying, "Independent research." There is absolutely no chance that I might be implying peer-reviewed publications, because I did not expect anyone to be dumb enough not to take that bit for granted. My bad, by the way.

 

And then you go and post another news link? f*ck! If you think there is a peer-reviewed article, post a link to it. Or just post a link to the abstract. I can download the full article. A news article saying that somebody said something in a serious journal doesn't count. Post a link to that serious journal. I'll wait.

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patsfan4life

Overpopulation is only a problem for a part of the world. In the US and Europe, there isn't a high enough population level. The problem is in China, but the population will go down eventually. Africa is overpopulated, because people there have like 9 kids. And India too, because girls there literally get laid when theyre nine. Basically I say the only way to stop overpopulation is development of countries. Africa is at the development level of Western cultures of the 19th century so in about a hundred years, I think Africa will be fully developed like the Western cultures of today.

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EternalChe
And then you go and post another news link? f*ck! If you think there is a peer-reviewed article, post a link to it. Or just post a link to the abstract. I can download the full article. A news article saying that somebody said something in a serious journal doesn't count. Post a link to that serious journal. I'll wait.

You just completely destroyed yourself, in my eyes, not as if you hadn't already with your snobby, cynical, pseudo-intellectual tone.

British Medical Journal "is among the most influential and widely read peer-reviewed general scientific journals in the field of medicine in the world."

It has a list of references in every article, just because it's not a pdf it does not mean its garbage. So if that does not satisfy you I don't know what does...

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nerner
Well watch few documentary films about it,you will learn that they make viruses,that people can buy their medicaments.It's the same thing with computer viruses,but that's off topic.

It's all about money anyway.I'm just saying that kills people.

Those aren't documentaries, they are mumbo-jumbo bullsh*t spreading conspiracy theory based crap.

 

Saying that they are deliberately creating virus strains in order to profiteer from them is such a stupid idea I can't put it into words.

 

Although on the bright side, your post did teach me a new word: "medicaments". I like it.

Hmm,you're so naive,your problem.

 

Yeah,medicament! Sorry,i'm not from Usa,England,so I don't know other word for that,huh.Well,is that word wrong,or?

The common word would be "medicine."

 

I'm not naive, I just understand that they don't have a lot to gain from doing this. When they can use the resources at hand to cure AIDS and make megabucks, why would they need to create a new strain?

 

 

please point out what exactly is "crap", so can have a debate on specific points and read my last post.

 

 

OK then, let me put out what is "crap" for you. Crap is saying that big companies need to create new virus strains in order to keep making money and selling their vaccines. I am not debating the fact the pharmaceutical companies, especially the huge TNC ones like GlaxoSmithKline and fizer, exploit the problem of AIDS in the developing world and basically use the people there as no more than guinea pigs in order to test out a theory or a hypothesis. If you had read my post through carefully you would have realised that.

 

My intention was to readdress our paranoid friends misplaced belief that companies create viruses, not to deny that human experimentation exists in the 3rd world.

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K^2
You just completely destroyed yourself, in my eyes, not as if you hadn't already with your snobby, cynical, pseudo-intellectual tone.

British Medical Journal "is among the most influential and widely read peer-reviewed general scientific journals in the field of medicine in the world."

It has a list of references in every article, just because it's not a pdf it does not mean its garbage. So if that does not satisfy you I don't know what does...

Umm.... I guess you didn't notice, but what you linked to isn't a peer-reviewed article. It's a review article. Essentially an opinion piece. A research paper describes some sort of research done by authors, other than digging for references. It begins with an abstract. Do you see an abstract? That should have been your first clue. It then goes into an introduction of the problem. That's pretty much your entire article. And then it describes the experiments performed, data collected, statistical analysis, and conclusions. Any of that there? No. How am I supposed to see if their conclusions are based on significant data?

 

And you are calling me a pseudo-intellectual? You can't even tell a difference between a research article an an opinion piece. If you haven't received proper education, sit quietly and let people who actually understand what they are doing figure things out. Alright?

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General Goose

If the quality of life improves sufficiently, we could very well be seeing a natural drop in human population figures, or at least a slowing.

 

In terms of dealing with the strain on resources and land a larger population brings, hopefully science would have found suitable alternatives to oil and such by the time overpopulation becomes a major problem, and hopefully things like artifical land will advance, allowing us to create more land and such to build houses on.

 

Going from an idealistic perspective to a very cold-hearted, cynical one, things like global warming and illnesses should bring population down a few hundred million or so, but we want to avoid those, so let's try and avoid them.

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EternalChe

 

I am not debating the fact the pharmaceutical companies, especially the huge TNC ones like GlaxoSmithKline and fizer, exploit the problem of AIDS in the developing world and basically use the people there as no more than guinea pigs in order to test out a theory or a hypothesis.

 

My intention was to readdress our paranoid friends misplaced belief that companies create viruses, not to deny that human experimentation exists in the 3rd world.

so where's the beef?

 

I thought that you were a type of person which defends big-pharma and so on. I was was pointing out that drug companies exaggerate the threat and manipulate research data just to make a buck on low quality vaccines that don't work or in some cases harm people, and of course use the 3rd world as a laboratory, while WHO and UN are on the payroll.

 

I'm sorry Unoriginal44, I'll write an 5000 word essay next time, with references of course.

 

K^2, the fact that Council of Europe is investigating WHO counts for nothing? ok, let it be you way, I'm in the minority anyway. But I can tell you one thing, I won't roll over and shut up.

Edited by EternalChe

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Tyler
I'm sorry Unoriginal44, I'll write an 5000 word essay next time, with references of course.

user posted image

 

 

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K^2
K^2, the fact that Council of Europe is investigating WHO counts for nothing? ok, let it be you way, I'm in the minority anyway. But I can tell you one thing, I won't roll over and shut up.

And US Congress tried to impeach Clinton over a blow job. It's all politics.

 

You already rolled over. You are ranting about your minority position on the internet forum. You might as well get a soap box and go stand on the street corner. Same impact.

 

People who haven't rolled over are working/studying in universities, conduct research, and write papers. Are you studying pharmacology in an accredited university? No? You rolled over.

 

You know the saying, "Lead, follow, or get out of the way?" You might not care about possibility of being trampled over, but you have to realize how pathetic that is. You disagree with direction everything's going? Fine. You have neither resources nor education to lead people in a different direction, so your opinion isn't hurting anyone either way. You still refuse to follow because you disagree out of sheer ignorance? Your own problem. You can go and refuse to have anything to do with pharmaceutical companies, or whatever. Your call. But what you're doing is equivalent to trying to stop a speeding train by lying on the tracks. It's just sad. So take your sandwich board, your soap box, and go disagree with mainstream science quietly with whatever dignity you still have.

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AlfieWilRus

Well, there is going to be one day in which planet earth will not be able to hold its inhabitants anymore. After that the only solution would be... You don't want me to say.

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Rown

Ya if we get to that point we kinda deserve it.

 

We deserve it if we manage to deplete or obscure certain resources without having gained access to new stockpiles or letting natural stockpiles regenerate where applicable.

 

If by that point there is still significant life left on Earth, good luck to it in doing better next time.

 

Rown rampage_ani.gif

 

P.S. @AlfieWilRus: Let Papua go please.

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Ari Gold
things like global warming ... should bring population down a few hundred million or so

That's a Pandora's box not worth opening.

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General Goose
things like global warming ... should bring population down a few hundred million or so

That's a Pandora's box not worth opening.

As I said, we want to avoid those, even if, from the cold-hearted POV I said that in, they would bring population down.

 

If you mean the whole "is global warming real" debate, than yeah, we won't go there. Not in this topic.

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Tyler
things like global warming ... should bring population down a few hundred million or so

That's a Pandora's box not worth opening.

As I said, we want to avoid those, even if, from the cold-hearted POV I said that in, they would bring population down.

 

If you mean the whole "is global warming real" debate, than yeah, we won't go there. Not in this topic.

There is no avoiding Earth's natural cycles, don't talk about it unless you addressed both sides equally. But, like Stefche said, don't open that can of worms.

 

Without effectively euthanizing our population, the only way I see us not plundering the Earth to a degree to vivid that it essentially, 'dies', then we have to colonize on other planets in the near future. Space is a big playground compared to the jungle gym we live on now.

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General Goose

 

things like global warming ... should bring population down a few hundred million or so

That's a Pandora's box not worth opening.

As I said, we want to avoid those, even if, from the cold-hearted POV I said that in, they would bring population down.

 

If you mean the whole "is global warming real" debate, than yeah, we won't go there. Not in this topic.

There is no avoiding Earth's natural cycles, don't talk about it unless you addressed both sides equally. But, like Stefche said, don't open that can of worms.

 

Without effectively euthanizing our population, the only way I see us not plundering the Earth to a degree to vivid that it essentially, 'dies', then we have to colonize on other planets in the near future. Space is a big playground compared to the jungle gym we live on now.

Well, allow me to say my view on that: Even though I believe global warming is manmade, all I know for certain is, it's happening. And we should try to avoid and minimalise the damage caused from it. That's what I meant, sorry for any confusion. So yeah, I weren't actually talking about the sides in the debate.

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Tyler
Well, allow me to say my view on that: Even though I believe global warming is manmade, all I know for certain is, it's happening. And we should try to avoid and minimalise the damage caused from it. That's what I meant, sorry for any confusion. So yeah, I weren't actually talking about the sides in the debate.

Alright, it's good don't worry. I agree on the fact that it's happening and we should try and reduce it myself, but I highly doubt that it was only because humanity sprayed too much mousse in their hair during the 80's.

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General Goose

Well, I think it's a variety of factors. Humanity wasn't behind it 100%, even though I think we're making it a lot worse.

 

However, we can reduce the damage when all the flooding and drought comes.

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Abel.
Well, allow me to say my view on that: Even though I believe global warming is manmade, all I know for certain is, it's happening. And we should try to avoid and minimalise the damage caused from it. That's what I meant, sorry for any confusion. So yeah, I weren't actually talking about the sides in the debate.

Alright, it's good don't worry. I agree on the fact that it's happening and we should try and reduce it myself, but I highly doubt that it was only because humanity sprayed too much mousse in their hair during the 80's.

That produced CFCs, which subsequently produced a hole in the ozone layer thus allowing the more effective penetration of Ultra Violet radiation through the ozone layer, not global warming.

 

Goose, I really don't want to provoke a needless argument with you, mate, namely as you support your ideas and I know you're a good debater, however, the atmosphere contains 0.04% Carbon Dioxide. While there's no denying we are producing Carbon Dioxide at an increasing rate, we must understand that the earth has undergone periods of warming and cooling without our activity. Look at the Pleistocene, our last ice age, which was caused by numerous natural factors, some believe the eruption of the Sumatran supervolcano Lake Toba released enough Sulphur Dioxide and pure, unburned Carbon to produce a volcanic winter, thus bringing upon the ice age. Other theories which explain the ice age include the "Wobbling Earth Theory" and the South American land bridge collapse, allowing cold and warm air to collide consistently, producing an excess of snow which coincided with the declining global temperature.

 

What I'm trying to say though, Goose, is that there are always factors which produce global climate change beyond human influence. Take this for example, the early atmosphere consisted mainly of Carbon Dioxide with some ammonia and methane (and trace water vapour). Early bacteria evolved thriving on the products of decomposing chemicals around them, these bacteria then evolved into the first photosynthesising organisms like stromatolites and finally plants. By this time water vapour from the early atmosphere had been precipitated to form our oceans which, along with the plants, absorbed much of the Carbon Dioxide present. Plants then proceeded to release Oxygen during photosynthesis, the sheer amount of Carbon Dioxide allowed plants to thrive everywhere and thus more photosynthesis was performed globally, forging an atmosphere more like ours today. The world's oceans and plants are cited by some as "Carbon Dioxide sinks" due to the fact that when Carbon Dioxide levels are higher than normal, they will absorb more than normal and when lower than normal subsequently more Carbon Dioxide will be released during respiration of plants and both processes will absorb less. For this reason, I don't believe the natural "sinks" of carbon dioxide will be unable to cope with the influx of Carbon Dioxide we are currently experiencing, nor do I believe that enough good evidence has been gathered to suggest that human influence is the main factor. Nevertheless, there's no doubt that our activity is contributing to global warming, but I presume not to the extent that the government is stressing to us; I cannot take it as irrefutable proof yet as we can simply consult our models of how the atmosphere has changed in the past without our presence.

 

Anyway, lest this post be reminiscent of Salmman's endearing ravings about Laser Disks, I think it's time to discuss Over-Population. We've noted the idea that development of the third world is the answer as the majority of humans live in the third world and LEDCs are undergoing rapid population increase. Then we can look at Germany, for example, at Stage 5 in the Demographic Transition Model (citation) the country is very well developed, more so than the UK which is currently in Stage 4. Denoting this development is Germany's ageing population, in Germany the death rate has now exceeded the birth rate, the nation's population is in decline due to numerous factors, I venture that as wages increase due to the nation's affluence more money is available for consumer goods, causing the desire of many people to change from family to personal enrichment and fulfillment with possessions. So, if the third world was to become this developed, would its population decline accordingly? Well, firstly we need to establish how long it would take for this to occur without outside influence, the UK was at Afghanistan's current stage two position in 1760-1880, so this could be a long way off without help from MEDCs. Even so, the overall development of nations such as Kenya and Afghanistan would presumably be hindered by the current level of corruption in those countries preventing development from being experienced evenly, thus stunting the growth of accepted ideals required for a reduction in population, such as healthy use of contraception. We must also realise that ideals such as having a large family are very difficult to control in these areas as often heritage is the only possession of these cultures and even if contraception is readily available, will people adopt it wilfully? Our population is set to stabilise at 10 billion by 2050, over-population is a definite issue, perhaps it will be resolved on its own, perhaps it's irresolvable without the intervention of MEDCs.

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General Goose

Indeed. I'm of the opinion that global warming is partially caused by human activity, not just carbon dioxide, but methane, CFCs, deforestation, all things that mess with the natural order. Like, I do think the CFCs were responsible for massive depletion of the ozone layer, and that the Montreal Protocol has helped with that, and I strongly believe that our unsustainable deforestation has messed with the natural order of carbon dioxide being taken by plants and given out by whatever. However, I agree with you. It's obviously not entirely human-caused, humans probably only have an aggravating/quickening affect at most, but we are causing serious environmental damage regardless, which isn't good for us or the Earth.

 

Back on topic, I do think that development is the best way of dealing with overpopulation. Developed nations have lower birth rates and greater knowledge about contraception, birth control and more. And I don't think it'll take so long to get Third World nations developed. The things holding Britain back from development in the 18th century was technology and the values and the way society worked. We've made big strides there since then, and true development is possible. Some of the Third World nations are already making big strides. I think the real problems will lie with both the time and the money, and the fact that wartorn, unstable nations like Somalia and extremist, cruel dictatorships like North Korea and Eritrea will make things a bitch.

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Nativedeem

The way i see it, this is one of the signs of the end coming. Im not talking about 2012 or anything like that. A lot of religions talk about signs, i dont think any of the major signs has happened though.

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