Oakland shooting.

[Otter]

The sad, but true, moral is this - if you don't want to get shot, don't be a f*cking thug.

Yeah, because that fed is so much better. He's a f*cking murderer.

See, the reason I've been posting less often in topics such as this are arguments, entirely stripped of context, like this.

[Saggy]

The sad, but true, moral is this - if you don't want to get shot, don't be a f*cking thug.

Yeah, because that fed is so much better. He's a f*cking murderer.

See, the reason I've been posting less often in topics such as this are arguments, entirely stripped of context, like this.

It happens, people infer various things, or believe there's some implication being made. That's why I always try to be as distinct as possible; and always wind up blowing hot air for five hundred or so words.

[TECHN9CiAN]

Well, it's very VERY unlikely a cop would pull a middle class Caucasian out the train like that, but I'll give your question a go...

 

If Grant was white, there wouldn't be people running the streets of Oakland rioting, breaking into shops, setting cars on fire, beating in any parked police car....

 

Why don't we hear about the cases where white people are the victims of police brutality? Because, in most cases, the cops are white, so we can't accuse the cops as being racist, but only as angry scum bags. We also don't hear a lot about white people committing crime... why? Is it because white people are all saints and never commit crimes? They run the media... who do they want to make you fear? They aren't going to paint a huge bull's eye on themselves...

 

Now if Grant was white and the cop was black, then we'd have something else... the klan and skinheads would have quite a field day.

 

I don't know if to agree with your classism theory... I think it's racism. When the average white family sees a black or hispanic family move into their middle class, predominantly white neighborhood, they quickly think stuff like "they must be drug dealers" or "at least they tried to make something good out of their lives, unlike all the others". Those white people thinking that will probably never do anything to express their racism, but it will still be there.

[ryuclan]

 

The sad, but true, moral is this - if you don't want to get shot, don't be a f*cking thug.

Yeah, because that fed is so much better. He's a f*cking murderer.

See, the reason I've been posting less often in topics such as this are arguments, entirely stripped of context, like this.

I understand how you feel but I find it hard for you not to understand why people took that out of context. It's not so far fetched to see why an average member could read that and infer that your saying the only reason this guy got shot was because he was a thug. I don't really know what to make of your statement Mr.Otter, I have a lot of respect for you, but I simply can't agree with what you said there or in the entire post.

[Oxidizer]

See, the reason I've been posting less often in topics such as this are arguments, entirely stripped of context, like this.

I didn't take it out of context at all, I just quoted the bit that best suited what I had to say . I get your points but I still think the killer cop is worse than the little thug.

[Saggy]

I don't know if to agree with your classism theory... I think it's racism. When the average white family sees a black or hispanic family move into their middle class, predominantly white neighborhood, they quickly think stuff like "they must be drug dealers" or "at least they tried to make something good out of their lives, unlike all the others". Those white people thinking that will probably never do anything to express their racism, but it will still be there.

Well, I don't want to get too heavily involved with the issue of race, but what exactly is the average white family defined as? Isn't your assumption on what they would think slightly racist? In any case, I've found myself saying those things about white people that have moved into my neighborhood because they were white trash crank addicts.

 

However, not to be coy, I do know what type you're talking about. I had a neighbor like that as a kid, who would speak of the Hispanics moving into the neighborhood in that fashion. It was always very odd, because it was never anything disparaging, just very racist. Things like, "At least good people, unlike the rest of them."

 

I'm just saying that, racism is something that is becoming less common in a lot of people. There are still a lot of racist people, but I think it's more likely that people in today's world will be discriminated against due to how much money they make or their social status rather than their skin color.

 

I'll put it this way. If you take an African American man, put a pair of glasses and a polo shirt on him, and have him drive a BMW around for a few months in an area where racism is a guarantee ( this is all hypothetical of course ), he's probably pretty likely to get pulled over a couple of times each month by some racist officers. Take the same African American man, put a doo rag and a raiders jacket on him, and have him drive a 72 Nova with rust stains around, and he's probably likely to get pulled over a few times a week. Racism is still an issue, but it just seems like class is becoming the higher priority.

[Otter]

The sad, but true, moral is this - if you don't want to get shot, don't be a f*cking thug.

Yeah, because that fed is so much better. He's a f*cking murderer.

See, the reason I've been posting less often in topics such as this are arguments, entirely stripped of context, like this.

I understand how you feel but I find it hard for you not to understand why people took that out of context. It's not so far fetched to see why an average member could read that and infer that your saying the only reason this guy got shot was because he was a thug. I don't really know what to make of your statement Mr.Otter, I have a lot of respect for you, but I simply can't agree with what you said there or in the entire post.

Perhaps I should take an alternate route to Sag's tl;dr (sorry buddy! ) approach, and boil it down to the main points I'm trying to make. You may argue that they happened or not, but I think you'd have to agree with the sentiments.

 

- fighting on a train BAD

- swarming cops, throwing things, and attacking them BAD

- struggling and resisting being subdued BAD

- murdering subdued kid by shooting him in the back HEINOUS.

 

There are two obvious things that led to this shooting. One being piss poor quality standards for cops that obviously need either a good refresher course or early retirement.

 

What do you think the other thing is? (Hint: it's not racism)

 

[ryuclan]

The sad, but true, moral is this - if you don't want to get shot, don't be a f*cking thug.

Yeah, because that fed is so much better. He's a f*cking murderer.

See, the reason I've been posting less often in topics such as this are arguments, entirely stripped of context, like this.

I understand how you feel but I find it hard for you not to understand why people took that out of context. It's not so far fetched to see why an average member could read that and infer that your saying the only reason this guy got shot was because he was a thug. I don't really know what to make of your statement Mr.Otter, I have a lot of respect for you, but I simply can't agree with what you said there or in the entire post.

Perhaps I should take an alternate route to Sag's tl;dr (sorry buddy! ) approach, and boil it down to the main points I'm trying to make. You may argue that they happened or not, but I think you'd have to agree with the sentiments.

 

- fighting on a train BAD

- swarming cops, throwing things, and attacking them BAD

- struggling and resisting being subdued BAD

- murdering subdued kid by shooting him in the back HEINOUS.

 

There are two obvious things that led to this shooting. One being piss poor quality standards for cops that obviously need either a good refresher course or early retirement.

 

What do you think the other thing is? (Hint: it's not racism)

I understand fully, but I'm sure you cannot prove that Oscar participated in any of this. I'm just wondering how all of that pertains to Oscar and his situation. He didn't attack them, he may have resisted arrested but it wasn't enough of a struggle to warrant a shot in the back. The rest of the men were complying obviously and even after the shot was fired they didn't run like I probably would have. haha. I'm not saying that racism had anything to do with this, but I don['t see how ANYBODY can say Oscar's being shot was his fault. Maybe if he reached for the cop's weapon but he didn't. The cop made a mistake and shot the guy.

[Wightboy]

I think it may be an accident

 

1. why would he shoot him in the back? - thats not certain death at all, paralysis maybey, and/or excrushiating pain. not something an officer would do intentionally

 

2. why would he even shoot him? what was he doing? not co-operating? he was drunk! no reason to kill him

 

3. the officers all looked kina shocked after the shot was fired.

 

I think the cop was rushing for something to do, under pressure from the crowds all watching and fliming him and whipped out his tazer (so he though) and tried to zap him one

 

Still, im not supporting the cop, he should get kicked out and locked up for at least 20 or so years. That guy was still an innocent and his ignorence and lack of awarness cost that mans life

[ryuclan]

I think it may be an accident

 

1. why would he shoot him in the back? - thats not certain death at all, paralysis maybey, and/or excrushiating pain. not something an officer would do intentionally

 

2. why would he even shoot him? what was he doing? not co-operating? he was drunk! no reason to kill him

 

3. the officers all looked kina shocked after the shot was fired.

 

I think the cop was rushing for something to do, under pressure from the crowds all watching and fliming him and whipped out his tazer (so he though) and tried to zap him one

 

Still, im not supporting the cop, he should get kicked out and locked up for at least 20 or so years. That guy was still an innocent and his ignorence and lack of awarness cost that mans life

Wait...do cops get tazers or stun guns? Because if they get tazers there'd be no reason for him to use it while standing up and from so far away. With a stun gun it's understandable but a tazer would have no effect from that distance it has to make contact.

[TECHN9CiAN]

I don't know if to agree with your classism theory... I think it's racism. When the average white family sees a black or hispanic family move into their middle class, predominantly white neighborhood, they quickly think stuff like "they must be drug dealers" or "at least they tried to make something good out of their lives, unlike all the others". Those white people thinking that will probably never do anything to express their racism, but it will still be there.

Well, I don't want to get too heavily involved with the issue of race, but what exactly is the average white family defined as? Isn't your assumption on what they would think slightly racist? In any case, I've found myself saying those things about white people that have moved into my neighborhood because they were white trash crank addicts.

 

However, not to be coy, I do know what type you're talking about. I had a neighbor like that as a kid, who would speak of the Hispanics moving into the neighborhood in that fashion. It was always very odd, because it was never anything disparaging, just very racist. Things like, "At least good people, unlike the rest of them."

 

I'm just saying that, racism is something that is becoming less common in a lot of people. There are still a lot of racist people, but I think it's more likely that people in today's world will be discriminated against due to how much money they make or their social status rather than their skin color.

 

I'll put it this way. If you take an African American man, put a pair of glasses and a polo shirt on him, and have him drive a BMW around for a few months in an area where racism is a guarantee ( this is all hypothetical of course ), he's probably pretty likely to get pulled over a couple of times each month by some racist officers. Take the same African American man, put a doo rag and a raiders jacket on him, and have him drive a 72 Nova with rust stains around, and he's probably likely to get pulled over a few times a week. Racism is still an issue, but it just seems like class is becoming the higher priority.

I don't know how exactly to define the "average" white family...

 

I don't see my assumption of what the would say as being racist... sterotyping, yes, but not racist. Your examples supporting my assumption prove that my stereotype isn't that inaccurate.

 

Racism is not becoming less common, it's just not as direct as it used to be. To defend their racism, racist people are using classes as an excuse to descriminate on minorities.

Your final paragraph kinda contradicts the one right before it in saying that the black person is still going to get pulled over... you say one will get harrassed more than the other, but nonetheless, he'll still get harrassed for his skin color. The difference will be that the racist cop will pass up on the opportunity of pulling over the rich one because he may feel slightly intimidated by him for being an educated minority who may know his rights, or something like that...

I'm not so sure where I'm going with this. Class is just a way to put all minorities into one category, making it a little easier to descriminate. It's kinda funny how the majority of the lower class people in America are actually white... guess this falls in as Darwinism for racist white people.

 

This world is going to hell....

[Wightboy]

I think it may be an accident

 

1. why would he shoot him in the back? - thats not certain death at all, paralysis maybey, and/or excrushiating pain. not something an officer would do intentionally

 

2. why would he even shoot him? what was he doing? not co-operating? he was drunk! no reason to kill him

 

3. the officers all looked kina shocked after the shot was fired.

 

I think the cop was rushing for something to do, under pressure from the crowds all watching and fliming him and whipped out his tazer (so he though) and tried to zap him one

 

Still, im not supporting the cop, he should get kicked out and locked up for at least 20 or so years. That guy was still an innocent and his ignorence and lack of awarness cost that mans life

Wait...do cops get tazers or stun guns? Because if they get tazers there'd be no reason for him to use it while standing up and from so far away. With a stun gun it's understandable but a tazer would have no effect from that distance it has to make contact.

I thought Tazers could be sorta , shot , through the air. Ive seen videos of it on youtube, maybey there all of stunguns and are all misnamed.

 

I dont know much about it but the same thing goes, just replace where I say 'tazer' with 'stungun'

[ryuclan]

 

I think it may be an accident

 

1. why would he shoot him in the back? - thats not certain death at all, paralysis maybey, and/or excrushiating pain. not something an officer would do intentionally

 

2. why would he even shoot him? what was he doing? not co-operating? he was drunk! no reason to kill him

 

3. the officers all looked kina shocked after the shot was fired.

 

I think the cop was rushing for something to do, under pressure from the crowds all watching and fliming him and whipped out his tazer (so he though) and tried to zap him one

 

Still, im not supporting the cop, he should get kicked out and locked up for at least 20 or so years. That guy was still an innocent and his ignorence and lack of awarness cost that mans life

Wait...do cops get tazers or stun guns? Because if they get tazers there'd be no reason for him to use it while standing up and from so far away. With a stun gun it's understandable but a tazer would have no effect from that distance it has to make contact.

I thought Tazers could be sorta , shot , through the air. Ive seen videos of it on youtube, maybey there all of stunguns and are all misnamed.

 

I dont know much about it but the same thing goes, just replace where I say 'tazer' with 'stungun'

Well stun guns are shot, I think they can be used from up to 100 feet away, but I really think those guys get tazers. If they are given tazers then that mistake is really almost impossible. Although they do have triggers you don't point them at people and pull, you touch it to them and pull. He wouldn't have had to get off him to use a tazer and it'd probably be better if he didn't get up to use it.

 

 

Oh ok, in the middle of writing this I see that they make some tasers that are also dual purpose so that they can be shot. lol Well I don't know. What DO they use?

 

 

EDIT: Haha wait tasers ARE shot and stun guns are touched...ok kind of confusing.

[GuySoDope]

I'TS 2012 "scary voice & laughs"

jk jk

 

That's messed up what happen

suprise the other cops didn't beat his ass down or shot him after that

[Saggy]

I don't know if to agree with your classism theory... I think it's racism. When the average white family sees a black or hispanic family move into their middle class, predominantly white neighborhood, they quickly think stuff like "they must be drug dealers" or "at least they tried to make something good out of their lives, unlike all the others". Those white people thinking that will probably never do anything to express their racism, but it will still be there.

Well, I don't want to get too heavily involved with the issue of race, but what exactly is the average white family defined as? Isn't your assumption on what they would think slightly racist? In any case, I've found myself saying those things about white people that have moved into my neighborhood because they were white trash crank addicts.

 

However, not to be coy, I do know what type you're talking about. I had a neighbor like that as a kid, who would speak of the Hispanics moving into the neighborhood in that fashion. It was always very odd, because it was never anything disparaging, just very racist. Things like, "At least good people, unlike the rest of them."

 

I'm just saying that, racism is something that is becoming less common in a lot of people. There are still a lot of racist people, but I think it's more likely that people in today's world will be discriminated against due to how much money they make or their social status rather than their skin color.

 

I'll put it this way. If you take an African American man, put a pair of glasses and a polo shirt on him, and have him drive a BMW around for a few months in an area where racism is a guarantee ( this is all hypothetical of course ), he's probably pretty likely to get pulled over a couple of times each month by some racist officers. Take the same African American man, put a doo rag and a raiders jacket on him, and have him drive a 72 Nova with rust stains around, and he's probably likely to get pulled over a few times a week. Racism is still an issue, but it just seems like class is becoming the higher priority.

I don't know how exactly to define the "average" white family...

 

I don't see my assumption of what the would say as being racist... sterotyping, yes, but not racist. Your examples supporting my assumption prove that my stereotype isn't that inaccurate.

 

Racism is not becoming less common, it's just not as direct as it used to be. To defend their racism, racist people are using classes as an excuse to descriminate on minorities.

Your final paragraph kinda contradicts the one right before it in saying that the black person is still going to get pulled over... you say one will get harrassed more than the other, but nonetheless, he'll still get harrassed for his skin color. The difference will be that the racist cop will pass up on the opportunity of pulling over the rich one because he may feel slightly intimidated by him for being an educated minority who may know his rights, or something like that...

I'm not so sure where I'm going with this. Class is just a way to put all minorities into one category, making it a little easier to descriminate. It's kinda funny how the majority of the lower class people in America are actually white... guess this falls in as Darwinism for racist white people.

 

This world is going to hell....

No no, I meant taking the same black man. I think he is more likely to be harassed if he seems impoverished as opposed to affluent. It was actually supposed to make you consider whether the white driver of the 72 Nova rust-bucket would be harassed more than the white BMW driver.

 

And you're right, racism is probably no less common, but it's just not as acceptable or explicit as it use to be. I mean, you can't really argue with that, there's just simply not a lot of obvious, explicit racism taking place today as compared with our past. In the 50's and 60's it was very easy for people all over the country to stand up sand say what was happening to African Americans and minorities was wrong, because the oppression and discrimination was not hidden at all; water fountains marked whites only, young black men being sprayed with water houses and attacked by dogs during peaceful protests. I mean, we had legislation at the time that was so ridiculous, we now refer to it as "Jim Crow" laws. Now days there's so much spin and agendas to try to hide the racism that still does exist, I can't blame a lot of people for not thinking that it's an issue anymore.

 

However, the effect that has is that people are simply starting to become more callous toward classes of people; people seem to feel the need to discriminate. I mean, the whole idea of "classes" has really only been more heavily defined recently, with the standards of what defines lower, middle, and upper class usually revolving around how much money a person makes, where they live, and their general social image. There's really no such thing as someone from the "upper" class and someone from the "lower" class, but it seems like our society is so dependent on segregation and discrimination of other people, but still so cautious of racism, that we've simply engineered a new system to segregate and discriminate each other: classism. I think you basically said the same thing when you said, "To defend their racism, racist people are using classes as an excuse to descriminate on minorities," and, "Class is just a way to put all minorities into one category, making it a little easier to descriminate," but what I'm saying is that even for those who are genuinely not racist, class is becoming the new great divide between people, a way to discriminate, without really making it about "race".

[TECHN9CiAN]

class is becoming the new great divide between people, a way to discriminate, without really making it about "race".

That's where I was going, I think. People will use this as a way to express their racism, others just to discriminate on those they see as inferior, but minorities will always see race as their [the discriminators'] main target, not class.

[maceo242k1]

As far as the poor white guy vs. poor black guy, I'll ask this question - who do you think is more likely to get the benefit of the doubt when a crime has been commited?

 

Yes, class is becoming more of a divide, however it still angers me when anyone even suggests that race is NO LONGER an issue in america. Sure, we voted in a mulatto president, but just a few years ago in texas, some caucasian people dragged a black man down a dirt road behind their truck until his eyes popped from their sockets.

 

Looking at the evidence, I do believe the shooting was accidental, but lets face it here guys, this cop resigned because of public outcry. A black cop would have been yanked immediately. There are countless cases I could bring up where white cops walk for things like this, and black cops are made examples of. The proof is in the pudding in cases like this, be it intentional or accidental.

[tuff_luv_capo]

This isn't in regards to the person who was shot, but rather to the crowd who were basically reinforcing a Biggy/Snoop Dogg ballad during the entire 2 minute video:

 

We get it, you don't like cops. "f*ck da po-lice", "187", etc, etc...

 

Doesn't change sh*t. In fact, your yelling "Let him go, dat's f*cked up," etc, holding out your cellphones so you can send a picture mail to your friend and plaster the cops as being abusive- is only escalating the situation.

 

Give the law a chance to f*ck you over before you accuse. They can't let everyone go to "make up" for their supposed bias.

 

Dipsh*ts.

[Mike Tequeli]

If you're suggesting the police shouldn't be recorded, well that would be trouble. I understand what you're saying but as far as I'm concerned, the police should be recorded so that we have solid proof of brutality if that happens because otherwise it's some guy's word against a cop's and the cop always gets favor in this situation.

[Otter]

I don't think it's the recording that Tuffy's taking issue with, moreso the idiocy of mob mentality.

[ryuclan]

I don't think it's the recording that Tuffy's taking issue with, moreso the idiocy of mob mentality.

Mobs are the worse. Especially when they are...rioting for peace haha.

[Iminicus]

Why is it that when incidents like what happened in LA and Oakland happen, they, the Black community, decides rioting in the streets and causing more trouble is beneficial? Doesn't that type of behavior just re enforce stereotypical views and give fuel to the fire as to why people and cops will continue to discriminate against them?

 

 

Even stepping away from that, I recall reading and hearing of planned riots in Chicago, San Francisco, LA, and NYC if Obama lost. How is this helping create equality between the white and black Americans?

 

It seems to me, that the Black community wants to be taken seriously and given all the same freedoms, expectations, rights, and respect their white counter parts get, but they riot and become disruptive to such extents when something goes wrong.

 

I'm not saying that they don't deserve equality and all that; I just don't think the actions they take if it doesn't happen or threatening to take such actions help their cause.

Edited January 11, 2009 by Iminicus